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\"應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 298.773, \"end\": 299.293, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 299.293, \"end\": 299.433, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 299.433, \"end\": 299.893, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 299.893, \"end\": 299.993, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 299.993, \"end\": 300.093, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 300.093, \"end\": 300.334, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 300.334, \"end\": 300.474, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 300.474, \"end\": 300.554, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 300.554, \"end\": 300.654, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 300.654, \"end\": 300.794, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 300.794, 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{\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 305.375, \"end\": 305.755, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 305.755, \"end\": 306.095, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 306.095, \"end\": 306.295, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 306.295, \"end\": 307.396, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 307.396, \"end\": 307.516, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 307.516, \"end\": 307.676, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 307.676, \"end\": 307.776, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 307.776, \"end\": 307.916, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 307.916, \"end\": 308.076, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 308.076, \"end\": 308.316, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 308.316, \"end\": 309.156, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 309.156, \"end\": 309.256, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"真\", 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\"有\", \"start\": 316.758, \"end\": 316.918, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 316.918, \"end\": 317.218, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 317.218, \"end\": 317.479, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 317.479, \"end\": 317.719, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"援\", \"start\": 317.719, \"end\": 318.759, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 318.759, \"end\": 318.919, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 318.919, \"end\": 319.859, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 319.859, \"end\": 320.399, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 320.399, \"end\": 320.519, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 320.519, \"end\": 320.659, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"漂\", \"start\": 320.659, \"end\": 320.799, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"亮\", \"start\": 320.799, \"end\": 320.899, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 320.899, \"end\": 323.16, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"怪\", \"start\": 323.16, \"end\": 323.46, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 323.46, \"end\": 324.421, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 324.421, \"end\": 324.561, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 324.561, \"end\": 324.761, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 324.761, \"end\": 325.441, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 325.441, \"end\": 325.641, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 325.641, \"end\": 325.661, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 327.923, \"end\": 338.208, \"text\": \"這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 327.923, \"end\": 328.023, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 328.023, \"end\": 328.163, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": 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\"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 525.313, \"end\": 525.333, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 550.538, \"end\": 550.558, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,370 --> 00:00:08,538\n好主席好啊我們先請我們蔡孟良署長\n\n2\n00:00:16,185 --> 00:00:42,578\n市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許明春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了\n\n3\n00:00:43,718 --> 00:01:06,718\n身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考機法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考機委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎\n\n4\n00:01:08,623 --> 00:01:34,546\n在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:38,240 --> 00:02:06,512\n報告委員,這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為,這個案子已經會...對啊,他高調的跟大家說,他背後很硬,他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後,他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?報告委員,這個案子因為我們部長他大概已經也決定做調令非處關職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?\n\n6\n00:02:12,196 --> 00:02:25,765\n考機法是你的管轄範圍我不是問個案像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關生育的情況是不是符合考機法第12條規定?\n\n7\n00:02:43,988 --> 00:02:58,283\n我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及刑事的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎\n\n8\n00:02:59,526 --> 00:03:17,583\n會,我會送檢調,也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好,那我再問,你們去查過的申訴系統,沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎?沒有有沒有發現?對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去?他有去查過嗎?對不對?我聽說\n\n9\n00:03:21,358 --> 00:03:47,056\n我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累\n\n10\n00:03:50,418 --> 00:03:51,619\n我這樣講啦,我們看到妳的報告齁,妳們的處理報告\n\n11\n00:04:11,081 --> 00:04:22,268\n北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思\n\n12\n00:04:24,822 --> 00:04:48,102\n對,主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長、一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了\n\n13\n00:04:49,337 --> 00:04:57,715\n你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。\n\n14\n00:04:58,773 --> 00:05:25,661\n應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁\n\n15\n00:05:27,923 --> 00:05:38,208\n這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎\n\n16\n00:05:41,394 --> 00:06:00,206\n委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦。就是說,我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因。那我再問,現在發現這個事情,我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我到現在還沒看到他。一定要,一定要。所以他什麼時候出來道歉?\n\n17\n00:06:01,155 --> 00:06:23,162\n我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說\n\n18\n00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:45,759\n我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題\n\n19\n00:06:49,632 --> 00:07:05,598\n這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有錯之前有沒有錯\n\n20\n00:07:12,642 --> 00:07:35,615\n這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對\n\n21\n00:07:36,757 --> 00:07:53,763\n我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面是有提醒以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外\n\n22\n00:08:04,912 --> 00:08:31,264\n我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞工勞基法的員勞工而調查報告證明北分署勞同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對\n\n23\n00:08:33,446 --> 00:08:39,094\n這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎請問職安署同不同意我們會協同\n\n24\n00:08:43,412 --> 00:08:45,333\n我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部\n\n25\n00:09:10,538 --> 00:09:10,558\n謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5370\t8538\t好主席好啊我們先請我們蔡孟良署長\n16185\t42578\t市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許明春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了\n43718\t66718\t身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考機法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考機委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎\n68623\t94546\t在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?\n98240\t126512\t報告委員,這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為,這個案子已經會...對啊,他高調的跟大家說,他背後很硬,他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後,他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?報告委員,這個案子因為我們部長他大概已經也決定做調令非處關職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?\n132196\t145765\t考機法是你的管轄範圍我不是問個案像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關生育的情況是不是符合考機法第12條規定?\n163988\t178283\t我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及刑事的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎\n179526\t197583\t會,我會送檢調,也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好,那我再問,你們去查過的申訴系統,沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎?沒有有沒有發現?對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去?他有去查過嗎?對不對?我聽說\n201358\t227056\t我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累\n230418\t231619\t我這樣講啦,我們看到妳的報告齁,妳們的處理報告\n251081\t262268\t北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思\n264822\t288102\t對,主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長、一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了\n289337\t297715\t你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。\n298773\t325661\t應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁\n327923\t338208\t這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎\n341394\t360206\t委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦。就是說,我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因。那我再問,現在發現這個事情,我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我到現在還沒看到他。一定要,一定要。所以他什麼時候出來道歉?\n361155\t383162\t我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說\n385100\t405759\t我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題\n409632\t425598\t這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有錯之前有沒有錯\n432642\t455615\t這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對\n456757\t473763\t我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面是有提醒以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外\n484912\t511264\t我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞工勞基法的員勞工而調查報告證明北分署勞同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對\n513446\t519094\t這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎請問職安署同不同意我們會協同\n523412\t525333\t我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部\n550538\t550558\t謝謝部長\n","txt":"好主席好啊我們先請我們蔡孟良署長\n市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許明春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了\n身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考機法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考機委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎\n在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?\n報告委員,這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為,這個案子已經會...對啊,他高調的跟大家說,他背後很硬,他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後,他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?報告委員,這個案子因為我們部長他大概已經也決定做調令非處關職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?\n考機法是你的管轄範圍我不是問個案像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關生育的情況是不是符合考機法第12條規定?\n我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及刑事的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎\n會,我會送檢調,也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好,那我再問,你們去查過的申訴系統,沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎?沒有有沒有發現?對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去?他有去查過嗎?對不對?我聽說\n我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累\n我這樣講啦,我們看到妳的報告齁,妳們的處理報告\n北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思\n對,主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長、一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了\n你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。\n應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁\n這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎\n委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦。就是說,我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因。那我再問,現在發現這個事情,我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我到現在還沒看到他。一定要,一定要。所以他什麼時候出來道歉?\n我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說\n我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題\n這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有錯之前有沒有錯\n這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對\n我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面是有提醒以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外\n我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞工勞基法的員勞工而調查報告證明北分署勞同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對\n這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎請問職安署同不同意我們會協同\n我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部\n謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.370 --> 00:08.538\n好主席好啊我們先請我們蔡孟良署長\n\n00:16.185 --> 00:42.578\n市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許明春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了\n\n00:43.718 --> 01:06.718\n身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考機法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考機委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎\n\n01:08.623 --> 01:34.546\n在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?\n\n01:38.240 --> 02:06.512\n報告委員,這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為,這個案子已經會...對啊,他高調的跟大家說,他背後很硬,他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後,他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?報告委員,這個案子因為我們部長他大概已經也決定做調令非處關職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?\n\n02:12.196 --> 02:25.765\n考機法是你的管轄範圍我不是問個案像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關生育的情況是不是符合考機法第12條規定?\n\n02:43.988 --> 02:58.283\n我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及刑事的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎\n\n02:59.526 --> 03:17.583\n會,我會送檢調,也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好,那我再問,你們去查過的申訴系統,沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎?沒有有沒有發現?對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去?他有去查過嗎?對不對?我聽說\n\n03:21.358 --> 03:47.056\n我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累\n\n03:50.418 --> 03:51.619\n我這樣講啦,我們看到妳的報告齁,妳們的處理報告\n\n04:11.081 --> 04:22.268\n北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思\n\n04:24.822 --> 04:48.102\n對,主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長、一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了\n\n04:49.337 --> 04:57.715\n你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。\n\n04:58.773 --> 05:25.661\n應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁\n\n05:27.923 --> 05:38.208\n這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎\n\n05:41.394 --> 06:00.206\n委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦。就是說,我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因。那我再問,現在發現這個事情,我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我到現在還沒看到他。一定要,一定要。所以他什麼時候出來道歉?\n\n06:01.155 --> 06:23.162\n我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說\n\n06:25.100 --> 06:45.759\n我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題\n\n06:49.632 --> 07:05.598\n這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有錯之前有沒有錯\n\n07:12.642 --> 07:35.615\n這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對\n\n07:36.757 --> 07:53.763\n我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面是有提醒以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外\n\n08:04.912 --> 08:31.264\n我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞工勞基法的員勞工而調查報告證明北分署勞同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對\n\n08:33.446 --> 08:39.094\n這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎請問職安署同不同意我們會協同\n\n08:43.412 --> 08:45.333\n我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部\n\n09:10.538 --> 09:10.558\n謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.37,"end":8.538,"text":"好主席好啊我們先請我們蔡孟良署長"},{"start":16.185,"end":42.578,"text":"市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許明春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了"},{"start":43.718,"end":66.718,"text":"身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考機法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考機委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":68.623,"end":94.546,"text":"在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?"},{"start":98.24,"end":126.512,"text":"報告委員,這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為,這個案子已經會...對啊,他高調的跟大家說,他背後很硬,他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後,他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?報告委員,這個案子因為我們部長他大概已經也決定做調令非處關職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?"},{"start":132.196,"end":145.765,"text":"考機法是你的管轄範圍我不是問個案像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關生育的情況是不是符合考機法第12條規定?"},{"start":163.988,"end":178.283,"text":"我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及刑事的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎"},{"start":179.526,"end":197.583,"text":"會,我會送檢調,也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好,那我再問,你們去查過的申訴系統,沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎?沒有有沒有發現?對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去?他有去查過嗎?對不對?我聽說"},{"start":201.358,"end":227.056,"text":"我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累"},{"start":230.418,"end":231.619,"text":"我這樣講啦,我們看到妳的報告齁,妳們的處理報告"},{"start":251.081,"end":262.268,"text":"北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思"},{"start":264.822,"end":288.102,"text":"對,主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長、一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了"},{"start":289.337,"end":297.715,"text":"你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。"},{"start":298.773,"end":325.661,"text":"應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁"},{"start":327.923,"end":338.208,"text":"這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎"},{"start":341.394,"end":360.206,"text":"委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦。就是說,我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因。那我再問,現在發現這個事情,我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我到現在還沒看到他。一定要,一定要。所以他什麼時候出來道歉?"},{"start":361.155,"end":383.162,"text":"我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說"},{"start":385.1,"end":405.759,"text":"我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題"},{"start":409.632,"end":425.598,"text":"這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有錯之前有沒有錯"},{"start":432.642,"end":455.615,"text":"這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對"},{"start":456.757,"end":473.763,"text":"我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面是有提醒以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外"},{"start":484.912,"end":511.264,"text":"我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞工勞基法的員勞工而調查報告證明北分署勞同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對"},{"start":513.446,"end":519.094,"text":"這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎請問職安署同不同意我們會協同"},{"start":523.412,"end":525.333,"text":"我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部"},{"start":550.538,"end":550.558,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":995,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時33分）主席好，先請蔡孟良署長。"],["主席：請蔡署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：署長好。謝宜容從部長專委到分署組長，然後直接高升分署長，是在您和許銘春前部長的推薦下，搭直升機上去的嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：是在我任內。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以也是你推薦的嘛！"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他升上去之後，同時也讓北區分署的同仁掉到地獄。身為謝宜容的直屬長官，你力薦的分署長有這樣的霸凌行為，是不是要以考績法第十二條規定記兩大過懲處？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個案子根據調查結果，本部會經過考績委員會的程序處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在你把他推上去之前，你知道他是一個潛在的暴君嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：過去他因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：2023年，他從2月上任到現在，北分署滿編才102人，他上任後的離退率竟然高達8成，其中有17位是主管職，主任編制有11個，離職9位；科長編制6個，離職5位，再加上兩位股長、一位廠長，你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個案子根據調查的結果，確實他有一些霸凌的行為，這個案子一定會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！他高調的告訴大家，他的背景、後台很硬，現在看起來真的滿硬的。你認為他調職之後不會霸凌其他同事嗎？還是你不敢說，因為你也被霸凌過？"],["蔡署長孟良：針對這個案子，部長大概已經決定調任，廢主管職。"],["邱委員鎮軍：銓敘部有代表列席嗎？考績法是你們管轄的範圍，本席不是問個案，像這樣引發社會高度關注的行為不檢，嚴重影響政府機關聲譽，是不是符合考績法第十二條的規定？"],["雷司長諶：因為我們法條是這樣的構成要件，至於是不是符合構成要件，機關要通過考績會這樣的機制來處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們也是要等考績會處理嘛！對不對？部長，你們的考績會什麼時候召開？"],["何部長佩珊：我會以最快的速度召開。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。現在除了降職、送考績會，本席想問部長，涉及刑事的部分，例如恐嚇、毀謗、公然侮辱，甚至是傷害，這個部分有送檢調嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：會，我會送檢調，也會送公務人員懲戒委員會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。本席再問，你們去查過申訴系統，沒有發現2月的申訴案件嗎？有沒有發現？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛才不是承認王次長有去查過？對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：不，那只是我聽說的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席現在嚴重懷疑一件事，王次長不是請辭了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有人說他是因為去約談，所以就請辭了。他是不是被霸凌？"],["何部長佩珊：和這個無關。"],["邱委員鎮軍：和這個沒有關係？"],["何部長佩珊：如果他真的有約談，那是2月的事，但他請辭是9月，時間已經離很遠，請辭是在我的任內。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他是不是受到壓力，所以沒辦法處理，覺得心非常累？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，那時候是向我表達他想離開。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席是說他心裡非常累，因為沒辦法處理。你有沒有去查過，和這件事有沒有關係？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，他離開的時候，我也發了感謝他的新聞稿，大家應該都有看到，我非常感謝他幫我的忙，而且幫我建置了所有的幕僚，他協助我非常多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席這麼說啦！我們有看到你們的處理報告，北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大，這是你們說的，但是又說北分署長沒有對輕生員工直接霸凌，這句話是什麼意思？這不是很矛盾嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對。主要是北分署長和離開的員工之間，還隔著兩個主管，一個副分署長，一個秘書室主任，這兩個才是直接督導這個計畫的人，北分署長沒有直接接觸他，所以沒有直接對他形成霸凌，可是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的意思就是要告訴大家，他霸凌了全部的人，但是只有這個員工受不了。你的報告就是這樣的意思？"],["何部長佩珊：不是的。因為透過一層、一層的傳導，離開的同仁應該也有感受到被霸凌，應該是這樣子啦！可是我真的無法證實他有直接霸凌。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席覺得你們的報告讓臺灣的勞工對勞動部完全沒有信心，也真的非常失望。因為你們報告裡面有提到，這位同仁很認真，有壓力自己扛，有困難不會求援，好像在用很漂亮的話術責怪這位輕生的同仁，對不對？這讓大家非常不能接受。你懂本席的意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：公務人員的雇主就是政府，你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工，是這樣嗎？這不是很諷刺嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦！我們要還原他離開的真正原因。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那本席再問，現在發生這件事情，分署長不用出來道歉嗎？本席到現在還沒有看到他出面。"],["何部長佩珊：一定要。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他什麼時候出來道歉？"],["何部長佩珊：我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉，好嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。他應該要出來面對，你們不能把他藏在後面。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我們沒有藏他。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不能說因為你的壓力很大，別人的壓力就不大嗎？對不對？所以這個部分我請部長，部長這邊你要趕快處理，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要這個事情愈弄愈大。然後我要再問，我們北區分署的同仁就算沒有求救，內部控管還是可以發現問題，因為這非常不正常，將近八成的人調離單原單位，這個問題你們沒有發現嗎？我覺得這事情是可以挽救的，可以不讓它發生的，可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這就是我們的疏忽……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們部裡面是不是要檢討一下？"],["何部長佩珊：這就是我們的疏忽，我昨天在記者會為什麼會致歉也是這個原因。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的人事單位，我想請人事行政總處，有來嘛？像人事單位，我們是不是應該追蹤類似這種離職的流動控管，有沒有做？之前有沒有做？"],["陳處長月春：這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工申訴方案……"],["邱委員鎮軍：像這樣不正常的離職呢？我講的是不正常的離職。"],["陳處長月春：我們是會提醒就是說，因為人員的工時或者是人員的遷調來講，因為這個是內部管理，所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是要……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我是問你有沒有追蹤，你不要講那麼多，有沒有？以前沒做嘛，對不對？"],["陳處長月春：我們在相關宣導作業裡面有提醒各機關……"],["邱委員鎮軍：以後如果碰到這種問題，會不會主動介入去了解？"],["陳處長月春：我們會來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：或者是提醒我們各單位，對吧？這個非常不正常，整個北分署的人都換掉啦，好不好？我們請人事行政總處這邊注意一下。"],["陳處長月春：好。謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用勞基法的勞工，而調查報告證明北分署同仁勞動條件不佳，又有職場霸凌、工時過長，同仁還陳情加班不給加班費，先打卡下班後再加班，還要24小時待命回復長官的LINE。本席在這邊要求，請職安署馬上啟動對北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查，可以嗎？請問職安署同不同意？"],["何部長佩珊：我們會協同……","我請署長回答好嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的提醒，剛才的臨時提案也有這個案子，依照我們的檢查分工，我們會由轄區檢查機構來檢查，這個提案我們職安署會協同他們一起來做處置，針對北分署的部分，適用職安法跟勞基法的勞工，我們會做這樣子的處置。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，你儘快啦！然後，最後我要再講的是，我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部門……"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：外界對你們的期待非常的高，結果今天內部反而發生這種嚴重霸凌的事情，那勞動部要拿什麼標準來守護勞工，如何為廣大的基層勞工申冤呢？這樣又有什麼立場再來裁罰我們的企業？我想部長，最後一句話送給你……"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們深刻檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是我們要刮別人的鬍子之前，先把自己的刮乾淨，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然，是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝邱委員。我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有5個案，請一併宣讀。","一、","根據《職業安全衛生法》第20條明定，雇主對在職勞工應施行下列健康檢查：一般健康檢查、從事特別危害健康作業者之特殊健康檢查、經中央主管機關指定為特定對象及特定項目之健康檢查；此外，醫療機構對於健康檢查之結果，應通報中央主管機關備查，以作為工作相關疾病預防之必要應用。","「慢性病防治」一直以來是國家醫療公衛政策之重點標的，近年政府已陸續透過公衛政策之落實，積極投入慢性病防治業務，在賴清德總統健康台灣願景之下，將啟動「慢性病防治888計畫」，近期衛福部也宣示，明年將擴大公費成人健檢之補助費用等。","依現行法規範，特殊健檢及一般健檢但指定項目發現異常者之健檢結果須交勞動主管機關備查，有關衛生主管機關依勞工健檢相關資料強化勞工慢性病防治之可行性，亟待勞動部及衛福部共同研商。","落實慢性病防治，除有助保障國人健康，亦有利降低整體醫療成本及健保支出。爰此，請勞動部就「勞工健檢結果相關資料作為國家執行慢性病防治政策參考依據之可行性」會同衛生福利部啟動相關研議，並於兩個月內將研議結果及未來規劃送交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：王正旭","連署人：林淑芬　　林月琴","二、","有關勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署（以下簡稱北分署）謝宜容分署長涉嫌霸凌員工乙事，根據勞動部11/19公布之調查報告，明確指出謝宜容分署長確有權力濫用行為，包含咆嘯、侮辱貶低同仁，導致有多位同仁求助身心科治療。另外，謝分署長對員工也有精神壓力行為，於下班及假日時間要求員工回覆工作訊息，若未即時回覆，翌日即遭責問，造成同仁恐慌情緒。調查報告也指出，謝分署長對於接獲涉其自身陳情檢舉，質問同仁並意圖查出洩密者，造成同仁身心壓力；對未能依其指示進行工作之同仁，則採取排擠之行為，使同仁深感受挫。","除上開調查報告外，根據北分署員工陳情信指出，謝宜容分署長於辦公空間大量種植私人植栽並加裝24小時照明軌道燈，導致北分署電費暴增；另，謝宜容分署長任內宣導禮品濫發，且委託與其有私交之設計師設計禮盒，並未依政府採購相關規定進行發包。上述行為已有貪污、圖利之虞。","謝宜容分署長種種行為已涉嫌違反《公務員懲戒法》相關規範，爰要求勞動部長依《公務員懲戒法》第24條等相關條文，將謝宜容分署長送請監察院調查。另因過去國防部發生洪仲丘遭長官霸凌事件，當時國防部自行調查結果查無不法，卻與檢察官後來所調查事實全然不相符，堪稱「國防布」掩蓋所有真相，是以要求勞動部不應再逕行內部調查，並主動將本案移送地檢署偵辦，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：陳昭姿","連署人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔","三、","有鑑於11月初，勞動部勞動力發展署北分署吳姓公務員疑似因遭到分署長謝宜容職場霸凌，於辦公室輕生一案。勞動部雖於19日上午召開記者會，說明該公務員輕生事件的調查結果，調查結果顯示，北分署分署長謝宜容情緒控管確實不當，讓同仁有職場霸凌的感受，但同仁選擇離開的主要原因是長期單獨從事單獨工作，超時工作、工作量過大、壓力太大，產生挫折感與孤立無援所致。該調查結果明顯官官相護，避重就輕，將此悲劇歸責於員工自己的問題，該員為何會孤立無援？是否有被強迫做違法的事務所造成的壓力？是否有利用權勢壓迫基層的情形？謝宜容分署長長期霸凌部屬期間，是否有多名基層公務員曾向勞動部投訴，卻未獲回應，亦傳出遭吃案後被挾怨報復？皆未見說明，只見用「目的良善」來美化霸凌之實，用「情緒控管不當」作為開脫之詞。勞動部身為守護勞工朋友的大家長，主管勞動法規的最高部門，未能作為全民表率在先，致令國人失其信任在後，國人深感痛心，爰此，要求社會福利及衛生環境委員會做成決議：退回該調查報告並重啟調查，同時引進外部調查機制（如加入第三方公正人士），另謝員應立即停職處分，並移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：中國國民黨立法院黨團","陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　王育敏　　廖偉翔","四、","有鑑於勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署，絕大多數是適用勞基法的勞工，而勞動部調查報告亦證明北分署同仁有勞動條件不佳，工時過長，工作量過重的情形，並認定本案關係人乙（即謝分署長）有持續性之行為，對於同仁身心產生嚴重影響，對於機關之信賴有重大間隙，認定謝分署長涉及職場霸凌，且情節重大，爰要求勞動部職業安全衛生署應立即啟動檢查北分署勞工的勞動條件及調查職場霸凌事件。","提案人：邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　廖偉翔　　陳菁徽","五、","有鑑於北分署長謝宜容職場霸凌，導致員工自殺身亡，然而「勞動部113年勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署疑似涉及職場霸凌事件行政調查說明資料」，竟然只是行政調查，避重就輕，而不是啟動霸凌調查。爰提案要求退回勞動部調查報告，於三日內重新改寫報告。","提案人：蘇清泉　　廖偉翔　　陳菁徽　　王育敏"],["主席：請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見？委員有沒有意見？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，剛才跟王委員溝通，就第一案的部分在第三段第二行「有關衛生主管機關……」部分，委員同意修正為「有關依勞工健檢相關資料……」，刪除「衛生主管機關」字眼。"],["王委員正旭：同意，同意修正。"],["主席：好，那第一案就修改後通過。"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第二案有沒有意見？"],["何部長佩珊：不好意思，可以講嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["何部長佩珊：就是最後倒數第二行「要求勞動部不應再逕行內部調查」那個「不應再逕行內部調查」，因為我們其實本來……就是這個部分是不是可以拿掉，我們會主動將本案移送地檢署，我們本來就不會再……因為這個本來就已經經過內部調查了，就是現在已經內部調查過了，是不是接下來我們應該主動將本案移送地檢署比較重要這樣子。"],["陳委員昭姿：同意。"],["主席：就是那一段刪掉就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：對，就是將「不應再逕行內部調查，並」這段文字拿掉。"],["陳委員昭姿：要求勞動部主動將本案移送地檢署……"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個我們可以，對，沒有問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：同意。"],["主席：好，修正通過。","第三案是國民黨黨團提出來的，有沒有意見？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，請容我說明，就是「退回該調查報告並重啟調查，同時引進外部調查機制（如加入第三方公正人士）……」這一段，因為我現在這個調查報告本身也是外部專家主導的，他目前人也不在，就是說這個部分要重啟調查，說真的……因為我們有外部專家，本來也有外部專家，我也得尊重他們的意見，他願不願意協同我們來一起重啟調查，是不是能夠讓我們有一……是不是這一段先能夠不要存在，「謝員應立即停職處分」沒有問題，好不好？然後「並移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。」是否就這樣子，我們接受，可以嗎？"],["主席：陳菁徽委員，有在場嗎？有來嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我先講一下，我先講一下。"],["主席：好，你先講一下。"],["王委員育敏：國民黨黨團提案的主要目的是，你們的調查報告其實現在大家有些聲音，覺得你們的調查不夠澈底，像我剛剛問你的問題，包括這一位吳姓工作人員，他從多久前就開始是這樣子凌晨5點就上班，你們也回答不出來，就是他整個實質的狀況，其實你們並沒有澈底調查。還有剛剛大家在講的，2月份的時候到底次長有沒有約談分署長，你們現在給的資訊也不夠清晰，你說要另外再立案，這一些其實都是整個調查應該要涵蓋的範圍，包括吳員他有沒有過勞？他過勞、他的整個狀態是什麼？我覺得你們沒有提供的很清楚。還有就是到底分署的同仁從什麼時候就已經開始去投訴，然後勞動部在什麼時間點知道這件事，而勞動部做了什麼？這部分其實也都沒有交代。所以我覺得就這些問題，你們這次的調查報告的確是不夠深入，如果現在要以昭公信的話，現在外界要的是真相，我是建議部長，有第三方公正人士進去調查其實對你們反而是有利的，因為你這一份報告，大家已經覺得是不夠詳盡的調查。如果再經由重組你的外聘專家，而且剛剛也有你們民進黨的委員在質疑次長是不是適合擔任召集人，他可能不適合，你可能要找一個第三方公正的專家學者，他來主持這整個調查委員會重新再調查，我覺得你重新再產製出來的報告才能以昭公信，社會也才會覺得這個真相是真的有釐清。因為到目前為止，昨天雖然部長跟次長出來開了記者會，但是社會疑慮的聲音還是很大，今天你可以看到各媒體的輿論反應是這樣，我覺得唯有真相可以說服大家。真相是什麼？然後你們真正的檢討，我覺得這件事情才會過去。所以你剛剛提到什麼委員會不會同意，組這個調查委員會，這個委員不同意，再找願意的委員啊！我相信這件事情應該也有這種熱血的委員，他也想要知道真相是什麼，然後他願意進來調查的，所以我是建議應該是你們重組一個調查委員會，然後召集人不要是你，你們勞動部現在也是苦主，你們也深涉其中，所以外面的人來幫忙調查，我覺得真相是比較容易還原的，所以我是建議這個案子應該還是要按照這個內容。"],["主席：部長，你現在要重啟調查，那些委員是要原班人馬，還是再找外面的？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我必須要馬上做出處分，如果再重啟調查，也會延宕我處分的時間。整個社會對我的調查報告如果不信任，我們就送檢調跟公懲會以昭公信啦。"],["王委員育敏：你有行政的部分……"],["何部長佩珊：對，我行政的部分，委員關切的問題我都可以來補充報告，沒有問題，可是如果就這一份要重啟調查，會延宕我處分的時間，這個要很抱歉……"],["王委員育敏：現在有的就先處分，報告出爐後也能再處分，你懂我的意思嗎？這個分階段本來就是可以的。"],["何部長佩珊：這個真的是……因為委員，如果說我這個調查報告沒定……委員對不起，我也要再釐清一下，我這個調查是行政調查，其實也不是送立院的，我今天是應立院的要求來做行政調查報告，所以並不是原來立院就有決議要我做這個調查，而我的調查報告送立院必須要立院通過，不是這樣的程序，這個本來就是我自己主動的行政調查，所以可不可以容我……"],["王委員育敏：是，現在就是立法院的衛環委員會做成提案，而且要求你勞動部必須要做一個更周延的調查報告出來，這是屬於委員會要求你再調查。你有屬於你的職權，你自己做了，但是今天委員會要求的是，因為你自己做的第一版大家看起來不滿意，所以是透過委員會委員的提案跟黨團的提案，我們要求你必須再重啟調查。這個過去在行政體系都有這樣的案例，沒有說勞動部自已做出第一版，衛環委員會就不可以再做出決議要求你再重啟調查，沒有這回事。"],["何部長佩珊：那是不是至少……"],["王委員育敏：立法院是監督勞動部的。"],["何部長佩珊：好，委員，那是不是至少「退回該調查報告」等文字可以拿掉，因為沒有退回的問題，我這個不是來立院，不是送立院議決的，對，所以是不是……"],["王委員育敏：那我們就要求你重新去調查。"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然也可以重新調查，可以，可是這就不妨礙我的處分了，好不好？這個我跟委員……有共識。"],["王委員育敏：對，不妨礙、不妨礙。"],["陳委員瑩：我有疑問。請問這個行政調查要做的行政處分，應該不是只有謝分署長一個人吧，是嗎？還是……"],["何部長佩珊：當然，是。"],["陳委員瑩：好。如果還包含其他人的話，我想要提出一個疑慮，在2月份的時候就有北分署的人提出檢舉了，這個檢舉到了當時的王安邦次長的手上，其實他是有去約談謝宜容的，約談完之後再往上呈報的時候，這邊就奇怪了喔！許銘春部長當時並沒有……他表示他不知情，他不知道這個檢舉，不知道這個案子，那中間還卡了誰把這個案子給擋了、吃掉了、蓋掉了，這個人到底是誰，要不要把他揪出來？"],["王委員育敏：要。"],["主席：要。"],["陳委員瑩：所以，這個就是行政調查你們沒有去查到的部分嘛。你要重啟或者是要怎麼樣，我沒有意見，但是我覺得漏掉的那個人應該要揪出來。不是嗎？我只有補充這一點，至於要採取什麼樣的程序，你們自己決定，但是中間把這個案子吃掉的人，一定要揪出來就對了啦！可惡！"],["主席：好，請林月琴委員發言。"],["林委員月琴：我想問一下，剛剛部長回答說「謝員應立即停職處分」你們這邊沒問題，想問一下公職人員停職、撤職跟永不任用公職的權責機關是勞動部嗎？這個程序是要怎麼處理，然後到底權責機關是誰，是銓敘部還是你這邊？"],["何部長佩珊：那是司法……委員，撤職、永不再任公職是懲戒法院的權限……"],["林委員月琴：停職，你剛剛講你馬上就要去辦停職，所以OK嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：那是懲戒法院，那是懲戒法院的權限，我的權限只有到停職啦！我的考績會權限只有到停職，最大到停職。"],["林委員月琴：所以後面這幾個都沒……"],["何部長佩珊：那都是懲戒法院的權責了，對。剛剛陳瑩委員垂詢的，這個我們一定也會調查，剛剛我已經承諾王委員，我的政風會立案開始調查2月份約談的問題，已經有，我剛剛已經承諾王委員了。"],["王委員育敏：所以你的調查報告就不完整，所以你就是重新再重啟調查……"],["何部長佩珊：我可以重做一個調查報告給委員會，沒有問題啦，可是不是退回這份報告這樣子啦。"],["王委員育敏：那幾個字刪除啊！"],["何部長佩珊：可以嗎？"],["主席：可以啊！退回該調查報……"],["王委員育敏：就是要求重啟調查啦！就是做什麼決議要……"],["主席：好啦，先講這一段「退回該調查報告並重啟……」，重啟調查要啦？決議就是重啟調查……"],["王委員育敏：引進外部機制。"],["主席：「同時引進……」後面這個，然後也同時送檢調啊，可以一起寫上去啊，好不好？部長。"],["王委員育敏：前一案就有了。"],["何部長佩珊：前面就有移送檢調了，對。"],["主席：前一案就有了？好吧，那改一改吧。","請楊曜委員發言。"],["楊委員曜：請問銓敘部或人事總處，行政調查能不能就直接對公務員做停職的處分，這個權責到底在不在勞動部？"],["雷司長諶：跟委員報告，如果考績會最後決議要記兩大過免職的話，兩大過免職處分做成之後，可以同時發布一個停職令，就是在處分確定前先行停職；如果要移送懲戒的話，就要依照懲戒法的規定，權責機關也可以先行停職。"],["楊委員曜：所以必須要記兩大過嘛，對不對？"],["雷司長諶：對，才有辦法行政機關來停職；或是移送懲戒，它也有一個停職的依據。"],["楊委員曜：部長現在的意思是，假如照這個臨時提案過，立即做停職處分，你們是可以接受的？"],["何部長佩珊：我可以考慮啊，沒有問題。是。"],["楊委員曜：不是，你沒有權力考慮啊！你沒有權力考慮，因為這個必須要考績會。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊，但是……"],["楊委員曜：部長，你這樣子的表態會變成考績會是由部長來掌控的，必須要考績會做出，他剛剛的解釋是必須要考績會做成兩大過處分以後才有停職的問題嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：也是啦！是。"],["楊委員曜：不是不能……"],["劉委員建國：你叫他再講一下，好不好？他講的怪怪的。"],["雷司長諶：沒有、沒有，考績委員會如果要處分，而且那個處分是達到兩大過免職，此時才會有停職的依據，我們的兩大過免職是未確定前先行停職，所以就考績的部分、懲處的部分的停職依據，只有在記兩大過免職的時候，他才能夠停職。"],["楊委員曜：所以……"],["雷司長諶：我們剛才講懲處和懲戒並行，如果考績委員會決議要移送懲戒的話，那就會到懲戒那邊的停職。"],["楊委員曜：所以也都不是行政機關內部或部長在這邊承諾說他可以將其停職的？"],["雷司長諶：機關的懲戒權限，如果是薦任九職等以下的，移送機關它是有權限可以先行停職。"],["楊委員曜：分署長的職等是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：十一。"],["楊委員曜：你剛才說九職等以下才可以嘛？"],["雷司長諶：九職等以下也是要移送懲戒才可以，即主管機關、移送機關本於權責，認為情節重大，讓他先行停職。"],["楊委員曜：好，那你直接告訴我好了，假如這個臨時提案直接就寫「應立即停職處分」，在法制上有沒有問題？"],["雷司長諶：主管機關目前沒有辦法做「應立即停職」這件事情。"],["楊委員曜：對，所以問題就是，部長，你應該答應的你就答應；沒有辦法答應的，不在你權限範圍之內的，你就是明白的跟委員會講，沒有一個委員會要求你去承諾你權限以外的，跟違反法律的任何事情，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，對，「謝員應立即停職處分」其實是考績會的權限，是我要去召開考績會來決定。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為考績會還沒開會，你必須就這個跟委員報告說，這個不在你的權限，是不是可以做修正，我相信沒有委員會要求你承諾你權限範圍之之外的事情，跟違反法規的事情，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我現在已經把他送考績會了，所以是否可以改為「建請考績會……謝員應立即停職處分」？"],["楊委員曜：考績會是獨立的東西，我們怎麼能介入？"],["何部長佩珊：如果委員堅持一定要寫「停職」這兩個字……"],["楊委員曜：不是，所以你要說的是這個沒有辦法，怎麼會要我們去建議考績會呢？考績會是一個審議的機關，我們還不想介入……"],["何部長佩珊：那委員可以接受把這句話拿掉嗎？"],["楊委員曜：我是可以啊！"],["何部長佩珊：可以拜託委員這句話拿掉嗎？"],["楊委員曜：這個本來你就是不能答應的啊！請保訓會說明一一下。"],["何部長佩珊：保訓會可以拜託嗎？"],["黃處長秀琴：報告委員，我們目前各機關在處理的時候，當發生同仁有違反紀律相關行為的時候，我們可以召開考績會，考績會它可以做成決議，第一個，我要有什麼額度的懲處決議，剛剛銓敘部已經講了，如果今天是一次二大過的懲處，因為它的效果是免職，免職處分的當事人可以提救濟，在未確定之前就可以依法停職，這是第一個。","第二個，考績會如果做成建議，認為以他的層級應該移付懲戒，移付懲戒的話，依照我們的程序，因為這是分署長，所以他的考績委員會應該在勞發署來召開，勞發署召開考績會的時候，如果認為要移付懲戒，因為我們的公務員懲戒法移付懲戒的權限主管機關是勞動部，勞發署的考績會就可以做成移付懲戒並認為情節重大，建議先行停職。之後到勞動部的時候，因為懲戒法有賦予它在移付懲戒的時候，它可以認為情節重大就予以停職，這個是第二個停職的法律。","再來，因為分署長是簡任的，所以要先送監察院，即現在先送監察院，而監察院有彈劾等等處分後才會送懲戒法院，但是不論如何，勞動部在移送時候，如果認為情節重大，就可以依照懲戒法第五條的規定先停職。"],["楊委員曜：可是移送之前還是要先經過考績會，對不對？"],["黃處長秀琴：是的，因為要討論。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，不管走哪一個程序，都必須經過考績會……"],["黃處長秀琴：勞安署的考績會。"],["楊委員曜：不管是哪一個單位開了會議……"],["黃處長秀琴：一個建議……"],["楊委員曜：必須要先有建議，所以這就不是我們在這裡可以先做出一個決議的，我們做決議等於是我們在對考績會下指導棋，是不是這樣子？"],["黃處長秀琴：是的。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝。"],["主席：銓敘部，考績會指的是署裡面的考績會，就是勞動力發展署的考績會，是不是？"],["雷司長諶：因為他是機關首長，機關首長的平時考核案件，基本上是送上級機關，就是勞發署，如果再往上面的主管機關送，因為它移送懲戒的主管機關會是勞動部，所以勞動部如果召開考績會來處理這個移送的案件也無不可，不過移送案件在公懲法的規定中，並沒有強制規定一定要經過考績會，只是行政機關通常會為了讓當事人的案件能夠被公正的審理，它會透過考績會這個機制來進行，但不一定要經過考績會……"],["主席：如果考績會決定處以兩大過就可以停職，是這樣嗎？"],["雷司長諶：我剛才講的是……"],["主席：停職不是免職，是停職喔！"],["雷司長諶：是懲處和懲戒並行，所以機關如果決定是走考績會懲處這個方式的話，在懲處這邊只有記到兩大過的時候，它才有一個停職的依據，在兩大過免職處分確定前先行停職，讓當事人去救濟；如果是走懲戒程序的話，那個停職就回到懲戒法的規定，剛剛保訓會已經有說明過了，如果移送懲戒主管機關認為情節重大，可以先行停職，當然移送到懲戒法院或者監察院也有職權通知停職，懲戒法院也可以通知停職，都有這樣一個停職的機制，但是那個部分就是公務員懲戒法的規範。"],["楊委員曜：不是，主席，我現在要確定的是，是不是一定要經過考績會？不管是懲處或者是……"],["王委員育敏：不一定。"],["楊委員曜：不一定，懲戒的部分未必……"],["雷司長諶：這個部分我恐怕沒有辦法代替司法院回答，但是就我們看到公務員懲戒法上面的規範，他沒有一定要走考績委員會這個程序才能移送懲戒。但若是走考績法的行政懲處，我們規定一定要送考績會。"],["楊委員曜：移送懲戒之前呢？行政機關可以先行停職嗎？可以嗎？"],["雷司長諶：剛剛有跟各位報告，行政機關如果要移送懲戒的話，多數的機關為了讓這個案件有公正的審理，它會經過考績會，但是沒有一定要這麼做，如果機關首長就他認定的事實，他覺得夠明確、夠清楚了，也希望能夠儘速做處理的話，機關首長也可以不經過考績委員會就移送懲戒。"],["楊委員曜：移送懲戒之前，機關首長有沒有權力先下停職的處分？"],["雷司長諶：這個部分當時有討論過，是不是要移送書出去之後才可以移送懲戒，之前有類似的案例，條文上面規定得不是很清楚，但是大部分的機關是移送書出去的時候，同時停職。"],["楊委員曜：對，我問的就是這個，所以假如走懲戒的路線，是可以又不經考績會，然後機關首長要移送前……"],["雷司長諶：因為考績委員會是部裡面主管，我們看到的懲戒法上面並沒有把考績委員會這個機制納進去懲戒的一個先行程序，所以可以直接送。"],["楊委員曜：而且送懲戒之前，機關首長是可以先行做出停職的處分，對不對？"],["雷司長諶：但是依條文是可以同時做的，就是移送監察院的的時候，認為這個重大可以先行停職……"],["主席：好了！好了！現在像是鬼打牆，就在這邊一直轉，所以我們倒數第4行的「……做成決議：退回該調查報告並重啟調查……」，將「退回該調查報告」刪掉，改成「……決議：要求重啟調查……」這樣好不好？部長，這樣可以吧？","然後「……同時引進……謝員應立即停職處分……」的部分，你們行政機關昨天好像也有說要將他停職然後調職，是不是這樣？你們昨天提出的報告是說要調職。"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，這個都是考績會要決議的。"],["主席：所以你們考績會還沒有召開？"],["何部長佩珊：我會儘速召開。"],["主席：好，所以這一句要怎麼修？所以昨天講的調職，他也不一定會離開，而是留在原來的分署，分署的員工怕秋後算帳，嚇到要死，委員都這樣講啊！會不會有這樣的事情發生呢？還是調來你旁邊讓你就近看管？"],["陳委員昭姿：調到部長辦公室啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不會啦！委員，「謝員應立即停職處分」這句話可不可以拿掉？我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會，好不好？也不用有什麼立即停職處分了，就是移送監察院……"],["主席：就是那一句不要了，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會，如果依照剛剛……"],["劉委員建國：主席！"],["主席：請說。"],["劉委員建國：我只是補充一下，部長心證已成，所以他就是要直接移送懲戒委員會，而不是送考績會，就是今天其實有特別提到的，所以他就可以進行停職的處分，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：我可以有這種權力嗎？我不知道！"],["劉委員建國：你要送懲戒的時候，你就有這個權限了！"],["何部長佩珊：委員……"],["陳委員瑩：你們三個要不要先開個會確認一下？"],["劉委員建國：移送書出去，就可以一併來執行停職處分了，剛剛就已經說得這麼明確了，因為部長剛剛也說不再送考績會處理，就直接送懲戒，都已經講了啦！我是應部長的講法，如果你的心證如果已成，就這樣處理啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為不是只有他一位，我還有另外三位必須處理，所以是不是容我儘快召開考績會做出處分，我有我行政部門的態度之後，我馬上移送公務人員懲戒委員會以及檢調，可不可以這樣？因為我……"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們現在是要討論臨時提案裡面要求你「立即停職處分」，這個文字聽說部長是接受的，我現在問的是，你有沒有這個權力可以直接這麼做？"],["陳委員昭姿：有啊！"],["楊委員曜：對，他剛剛有講，假如走懲戒的路線的話，可以不經過考績委員會而且部長可以直接做停職處分，是不是這樣子？保訓會跟……"],["涂委員權吉：移送的時候就停職……"],["主席：我們衛環委員會主秘他的意見是這樣的，移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會的同時就可以停職了，所以這兩個是可以一起做的，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，是沒有錯啦！我現在只是說……"],["雷司長諶：公懲會不需要啦！若他是簡任職務的話，不會逕送懲戒法院，而是送監察院。"],["王委員育敏：所以送監察院就好……"],["雷司長諶：因為原先的內容是將停職寫在前面，但似乎應修正為先移送監察院，並同時停職……"],["陳委員昭姿：監察院敢辦嗎？"],["黃處長秀琴：移送就停職了。"],["王委員育敏：移送就停職了。"],["主席：那改一改！"],["王委員育敏：我覺得剛剛那個文字很好！"],["陳委員瑩：已經眾目睽睽了，監察院還不敢辦嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：誰知道！"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！都送啦！"],["涂委員權吉：移送就停職了？"],["王委員育敏：對啊！就是「移送監察院並……」……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，可不可以容我再跟委員……"],["主席：剛剛講的這個是OK的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，剛剛講的那個方式，移送監察院公務人員懲戒委員會，並予以停職，這只能針對情節最重大的，可是我剛剛有再跟各位委員報告，我還有另外三位要處理。"],["王委員育敏：它只有針對謝員，其他三位你自己處理啊！它只說謝員、分署長。"],["何部長佩珊：如果委員只對謝員有意見，所以委員的意思是，謝員就不經過我的考績會，然後希望我直接把他停職並移送公務人員懲戒委員會，是嗎？"],["王委員育敏：移送監察院，然後就……"],["何部長佩珊：那可不可以……"],["主席：我們不要失焦啦！"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你要不要承擔，你要承擔就直接移送，然後你就自己予以停職；你不想承擔就交給考績會，所以這個是部長你個人願不願意承擔、是態度的問題而已。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，不是啦！考績會其實也是我這邊召開的，所以也是我擔全責，考績會所做成的處分也代表我的態度，那也是機關的態度啊！因為考績會也是機關裡面來召開的。"],["陳委員昭姿：考績會要等多久，現在就決定！"],["何部長佩珊：我馬上就會召開考績會，可以嗎？就是我馬上召開考績會，我會考慮對謝員予以停職處分，然後我還要考慮其他三位的處分，之後我會一併移送公務人員懲戒委員會跟檢調，可以嗎？"],["王委員育敏：其他三位的處理是部長的權限，大家要處理的是分署長。"],["陳委員昭姿：你確定要讓火繼續燒嗎？如果現在不答應的話。"],["何部長佩珊：……因為委員擔心我們不停職……"],["王委員育敏：這樣子就好，你不用綁在一起，就切割開來，這一個案子……"],["主席：好！好！好！不要再討論了，我聽到都頭暈了，勞動部，你把第三案改一改，等一下再唸給大家聽，如果可以我們就通過。","我們現在先處理第四案跟第五案。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，可不可以第五案也一起併同討論？"],["主席：好。"],["何部長佩珊：就是將這個案併一案來處理，可以嗎？"],["主席：可以！可以！我們先處理第四案，不要在那邊一直繞圈子。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告召委，第四案我們有跟委員報告、溝通，是不是倒數第2行修正為「爰要求勞動部職業安全署應協同轄區勞動檢查機構立即啟動檢查」，就是再加10個字，是不是委員可以同意？"],["主席：可以。"],["鄒署長子廉：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，回過頭處理第三案及第五案，部長，文字趕快改一改！都快聽不下去了！","好，現在休息10分鐘，請趕快改一改，要吃飯的請趕快吃。","報告委員會，我們現在改一下，改為休息20分鐘。","休息（12時19分）","繼續開會（12時42分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","現在處理第三案，請唸一下修改後的文字。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以說明一下嗎？就是原本倒數第4行的「退回該調查報告並」拿掉，修正為「……做成決議：重啟調查，同時引進外部調查機制（如加入第三方公正人士），將謝員移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會，並同時審酌是否依法停職」……","對不起，委員，我再修正，就是拿掉「及公務人員懲戒委員會」，修正為「一併移送監察院，並審酌是否依法停職」。"],["主席：你的「考績委員會」不寫進去嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告，這樣還是保留了我可以開考績會把他停職，然後移送。"],["主席：「將謝員移送監察院」是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["主席：再來呢？"],["何部長佩珊：「並同時審酌是否依法停職」。"],["主席：那你要開考績會……"],["何部長佩珊：考績會那段應該可以不用特別寫，因為本來就是我的權力，這是可以的，對不對？保訓會，是吧？"],["主席：不用寫？"],["何部長佩珊：不用寫，本來就可以我開考績會，然後予以停職，然後送監察院，是吧？"],["主席：大家聽到都「霧煞煞」了，王育敏委員，這樣可以嗎？","陳菁徽委員，可以嗎？"],["王委員育敏：可以啊！"],["主席：執政黨的委員，可以嗎？秀芳姐，可以嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：可以。"],["主席：好，就這樣通過。臨時提案全部處理完畢，接下來我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}}