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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 767.166, \"end\": 767.306, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 767.306, \"end\": 767.446, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 767.446, \"end\": 767.586, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 767.586, \"end\": 767.606, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,161 --> 00:00:11,744\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有桃基董事長好,陳部長、楊董兩位好,之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力\n\n2\n00:00:30,339 --> 00:00:58,161\n那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案\n\n3\n00:00:59,551 --> 00:01:24,488\n全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個\n\n4\n00:01:25,785 --> 00:01:45,750\n回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重了\n\n5\n00:01:49,753 --> 00:02:12,715\n等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0\n\n6\n00:02:14,788 --> 00:02:42,181\n問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:43,325 --> 00:03:09,141\n看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好喔\n\n8\n00:03:10,239 --> 00:03:36,803\n今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的\n\n9\n00:03:37,984 --> 00:04:05,440\n系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎\n\n10\n00:04:08,297 --> 00:04:29,802\n我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦警告他們啊不要這樣幹\n\n11\n00:04:31,687 --> 00:04:35,610\n但我看實際上面的過程從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調是這樣嗎\n\n12\n00:04:45,064 --> 00:05:09,961\n現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊\n\n13\n00:05:10,929 --> 00:05:17,314\n我現在具體的問阿到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看阿整個進度阿緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了\n\n14\n00:05:40,653 --> 00:06:08,152\n因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看\n\n15\n00:06:09,355 --> 00:06:28,382\n目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況\n\n16\n00:06:33,893 --> 00:06:41,870\n行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嘛那這樣怎麼辦\n\n17\n00:06:44,409 --> 00:07:08,229\n是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是onschedule嗎\n\n18\n00:07:09,493 --> 00:07:30,239\n目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊\n\n19\n00:07:32,777 --> 00:07:45,003\n提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件\n\n20\n00:07:46,581 --> 00:08:09,718\n報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號\n\n21\n00:08:13,220 --> 00:08:28,079\n接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差\n\n22\n00:08:29,721 --> 00:08:44,509\n跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到\n\n23\n00:08:46,510 --> 00:08:49,371\n我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子\n\n24\n00:09:16,175 --> 00:09:41,779\n後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院\n\n25\n00:09:43,770 --> 00:10:00,101\n目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去\n\n26\n00:10:01,298 --> 00:10:28,987\n這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上\n\n27\n00:10:30,049 --> 00:10:50,724\n我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質\n\n28\n00:10:55,131 --> 00:11:16,407\n大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎\n\n29\n00:11:18,174 --> 00:11:26,207\n最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎\n\n30\n00:11:32,699 --> 00:12:01,921\n是嗎部長保委員程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求\n\n31\n00:12:02,281 --> 00:12:19,365\n部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負\n\n32\n00:12:24,512 --> 00:12:47,606\n該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好這個部分沒有問題OK好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7161\t11744\t謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有桃基董事長好,陳部長、楊董兩位好,之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力\n30339\t58161\t那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案\n59551\t84488\t全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個\n85785\t105750\t回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重了\n109753\t132715\t等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0\n134788\t162181\t問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼\n163325\t189141\t看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好喔\n190239\t216803\t今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的\n217984\t245440\t系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎\n248297\t269802\t我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦警告他們啊不要這樣幹\n271687\t275610\t但我看實際上面的過程從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調是這樣嗎\n285064\t309961\t現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊\n310929\t317314\t我現在具體的問阿到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看阿整個進度阿緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了\n340653\t368152\t因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看\n369355\t388382\t目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況\n393893\t401870\t行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嘛那這樣怎麼辦\n404409\t428229\t是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是on schedule嗎\n429493\t450239\t目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊\n452777\t465003\t提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件\n466581\t489718\t報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號\n493220\t508079\t接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差\n509721\t524509\t跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到\n526510\t529371\t我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子\n556175\t581779\t後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院\n583770\t600101\t目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去\n601298\t628987\t這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上\n630049\t650724\t我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質\n655131\t676407\t大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎\n678174\t686207\t最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎\n692699\t721921\t是嗎 部長保委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求\n722281\t739365\t部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負\n744512\t767606\t該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有桃基董事長好,陳部長、楊董兩位好,之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力\n那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案\n全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個\n回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重了\n等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0\n問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼\n看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好喔\n今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的\n系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎\n我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦警告他們啊不要這樣幹\n但我看實際上面的過程從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調是這樣嗎\n現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊\n我現在具體的問阿到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看阿整個進度阿緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了\n因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看\n目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況\n行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嘛那這樣怎麼辦\n是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是on schedule嗎\n目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊\n提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件\n報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號\n接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差\n跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到\n我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子\n後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院\n目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去\n這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上\n我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質\n大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎\n最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎\n是嗎 部長保委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求\n部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負\n該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.161 --> 00:11.744\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有桃基董事長好,陳部長、楊董兩位好,之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力\n\n00:30.339 --> 00:58.161\n那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案\n\n00:59.551 --> 01:24.488\n全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個\n\n01:25.785 --> 01:45.750\n回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重了\n\n01:49.753 --> 02:12.715\n等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0\n\n02:14.788 --> 02:42.181\n問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼\n\n02:43.325 --> 03:09.141\n看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好喔\n\n03:10.239 --> 03:36.803\n今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的\n\n03:37.984 --> 04:05.440\n系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎\n\n04:08.297 --> 04:29.802\n我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦警告他們啊不要這樣幹\n\n04:31.687 --> 04:35.610\n但我看實際上面的過程從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調是這樣嗎\n\n04:45.064 --> 05:09.961\n現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊\n\n05:10.929 --> 05:17.314\n我現在具體的問阿到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看阿整個進度阿緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了\n\n05:40.653 --> 06:08.152\n因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看\n\n06:09.355 --> 06:28.382\n目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況\n\n06:33.893 --> 06:41.870\n行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嘛那這樣怎麼辦\n\n06:44.409 --> 07:08.229\n是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是onschedule嗎\n\n07:09.493 --> 07:30.239\n目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊\n\n07:32.777 --> 07:45.003\n提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件\n\n07:46.581 --> 08:09.718\n報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號\n\n08:13.220 --> 08:28.079\n接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差\n\n08:29.721 --> 08:44.509\n跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到\n\n08:46.510 --> 08:49.371\n我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子\n\n09:16.175 --> 09:41.779\n後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院\n\n09:43.770 --> 10:00.101\n目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去\n\n10:01.298 --> 10:28.987\n這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上\n\n10:30.049 --> 10:50.724\n我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質\n\n10:55.131 --> 11:16.407\n大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎\n\n11:18.174 --> 11:26.207\n最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎\n\n11:32.699 --> 12:01.921\n是嗎部長保委員程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求\n\n12:02.281 --> 12:19.365\n部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負\n\n12:24.512 --> 12:47.606\n該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好這個部分沒有問題OK好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.161,"end":11.744,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有桃基董事長好,陳部長、楊董兩位好,之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力"},{"start":30.339,"end":58.161,"text":"那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案"},{"start":59.551,"end":84.488,"text":"全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個"},{"start":85.785,"end":105.75,"text":"回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重了"},{"start":109.753,"end":132.715,"text":"等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0"},{"start":134.788,"end":162.181,"text":"問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼"},{"start":163.325,"end":189.141,"text":"看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好喔"},{"start":190.239,"end":216.803,"text":"今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的"},{"start":217.984,"end":245.44,"text":"系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":248.297,"end":269.802,"text":"我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦警告他們啊不要這樣幹"},{"start":271.687,"end":275.61,"text":"但我看實際上面的過程從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調是這樣嗎"},{"start":285.064,"end":309.961,"text":"現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊"},{"start":310.929,"end":317.314,"text":"我現在具體的問阿到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看阿整個進度阿緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了"},{"start":340.653,"end":368.152,"text":"因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看"},{"start":369.355,"end":388.382,"text":"目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況"},{"start":393.893,"end":401.87,"text":"行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嘛那這樣怎麼辦"},{"start":404.409,"end":428.229,"text":"是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是on schedule嗎"},{"start":429.493,"end":450.239,"text":"目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊"},{"start":452.777,"end":465.003,"text":"提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件"},{"start":466.581,"end":489.718,"text":"報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號"},{"start":493.22,"end":508.079,"text":"接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差"},{"start":509.721,"end":524.509,"text":"跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到"},{"start":526.51,"end":529.371,"text":"我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子"},{"start":556.175,"end":581.779,"text":"後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院"},{"start":583.77,"end":600.101,"text":"目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去"},{"start":601.298,"end":628.987,"text":"這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上"},{"start":630.049,"end":650.724,"text":"我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質"},{"start":655.131,"end":676.407,"text":"大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎"},{"start":678.174,"end":686.207,"text":"最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎"},{"start":692.699,"end":721.921,"text":"是嗎 部長保委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求"},{"start":722.281,"end":739.365,"text":"部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負"},{"start":744.512,"end":767.606,"text":"該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長及桃機董事長。"],["主席：陳部長、楊董。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：之前我就關心過我們三航廈的標案，裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫做理立。我用「惡名昭彰」這個詞，聽起來是有點重，但是過去的敗行劣跡，我在好幾次的質詢中也一路追蹤下來。但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪，這種欺騙國人、甚至騙到經濟部莫名其妙給它一個獎，結果在美國的實績全部都是造假的公司，竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的標案，全體國人看得是目瞪口呆，這家公司到底是什麼後台，後台這麼硬，一直拿到莫名其妙的標案。上次請教過部長這件事，部長也說會回去查嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員國昌：後來我就陸陸續續收到交通部一些回函的檢討措施，所以我們就一樣一樣來看。","第一個，回答是說那次整個招標評選完全合法，我看了這個結論就非常訝異、就趕快進一步拜讀，這種詐騙的廠商是怎麼樣拿到標案。如果整個程序都合法，還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞，問題就嚴重了，等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下這種詐騙的廠商，茲事體大。進一步看，你們說那個時候它提出來的實績，因為要審查它的資格、它的能力、它的實績，我看你們回函的內容是臺鐵行控4.0。問題是臺鐵行控4.0，我之前質詢運安會的時候，運安會說的是什麼？那個東西根本不能用啊！我的問題就來了，一個重要的標案要評選廠商，前面要有實績嘛！它提出來的實績是一個爛得不得了的實績，連運安會的主委都說根本不能用。所以我們在評選的時候是什麼？看paperwork前面只要有標案，這樣就算數囉？部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，關於你提醒的這個，我也覺得是有問題，所以我才會認為要再精進，因此在回復你的內容中，對於未來的評選方式應該要再精進。如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來，未來就必然要精進。"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好！部長在備詢的時候肯說出這個的確有問題，代表的是什麼？最起碼還願意誠實面對問題嘛！這是非常重要的第一步啊！誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題，我們接下來才要繼續看嘛！","T3運輸系統，可能部長所講的，未來要精進的部分，對於這種重要的系統技術，譬如行車管理系統，以後要單獨評選，不要全部混在一起嘛！全部混在一起，裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選，混水摸魚就過去了嘛！這一點我是認同的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再往下看，這個案子履行到現在，你們的分包計畫還沒有核定，那個包商就對外宣稱已經核定了，有出現這樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：據我所知，應該還沒核定吧！"],["黃委員國昌：對，我知道還沒核定嘛！但是，部長，你看一下我附的，你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商，不要對外宣稱已經監造單位核定，以免產生爭議。你們會寫這樣的文字，代表的是什麼？代表他們已經在外面放話了，所以警告他們不要這樣幹。但我看實際上的過程，從2023年12月決標到現在，分包計畫書到目前還在協調，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在正在送審當中，我是不是請總經理說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以、可以，請熟悉的人上來回答這個問題，我沒有要為難部長的意思，我們解決問題比較重要。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個分包計畫是由成運公司還在檢討中，最近有提了……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的困惑是從決標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年，搞了快一年卻還在檢討，這樣到底來得及、來不及啊？"],["范總經理孝倫：我們是在今年初開工，在這個之後成運公司提了幾次分包計畫送審，但是我們的顧問團隊有意見，所以請它再修正，至於同步的一些細緻的工作則是同步在展開。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在具體的問，到時候時間到了，這個系統真的能用嗎？以我目前看來，整個進度緩慢得不得了，為什麼會緩慢得不得了？因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛！你在挑選時挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來，當然後面問題一堆嘛！現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊！我著眼的事情是剛剛部長所講的，除了承認有問題、要檢討問題之外，下一個是目前這個問題到底要怎麼解決？","我看目前的進度是這個樣子，我們再往下看，目前提交的車輛行車管理系統設計文件，缺乏完整系統架構，也沒有充分對應到你的需求，這樣還走得下去嗎？這樣還走得下去嗎？國家重要的建設，挑到一個爛廠商，出現這樣的狀況，行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構、也沒有辦法符合業主，也就是你們的需求，這樣怎麼辦？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個階段是處於細部設計的階段，按照里程碑，成運公司也在上周五提出它的細部設計成果，目前正由我們的顧問團隊審查中，我們會依照這個審查結果進行後續的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們到目前的進度都還是on schedule嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：目前這個階段是按原計畫的里程碑在進行當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以都還沒有遲延？"],["范總經理孝倫：應該這樣講，它有按里程碑交出這個成果，但是這個成果的好與壞，我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才貼給你看嘛！是9月12號的會議紀錄，提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求啊！現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難，這全部都是你們交的文件啊！"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，這個是9月12號機場公司這邊會議，所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容品質的問題，所以預先請它要做檢討，它在11月15號已經提出完整的結果，那當然我們就會依據它的內容的品質再來做審查，並依約處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們先看接下來10月29號的履約管理會議，就是你剛剛講的依約需在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查，你們在10月29號的會議紀錄中說「在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差」跟「參考國際標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足」，現在這些問題都解決了嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我們在歷次相關會議裡這些意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到成運公司當時的文件品質的問題，所以先跟它做預告，剛剛已經報告了，他們在上個禮拜已經把全部的設計成果提出來，現在正由團隊做嚴格的審查中。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，你們前面在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關，接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子，後面就是一堆爛攤子！我收到的檢舉是目前這個詐騙廠商理立要讓工程會去施壓，要成運跟它和解，是不是？有收到這樣的消息嗎？沒有收到這樣的消息？目前成運是不是希望把它換成工研院？"],["范總經理孝倫：目前我們有得到成運提出的一個請求，要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來。"],["黃委員國昌：事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦！把工研院加進來，沒有把它踢出去，這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛！明眼人一看就知道了嘛！現在它提出這樣子的申請，你們會同意嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我想這部分有一些會涉及到原來契約要求的分工跟執行的內容以及相關採購法的規定，所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍。"],["黃委員國昌：這我瞭解，其實將心比心，站在你們的位置上，我知道你們很痛苦，因為連我在思考這件事情時都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子，你讓它換，大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平；你不讓它換，它又沒有能力做下去，那延誤的是我們整個機場的工程，整個T3運輸的品質嘛！大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情。我向來的立場是從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭，廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事，但是我們站在國家的立場，遇到這種爛事，最後就是全民來承擔嘛！我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子。但是回到部長一開始所講的，有問題，但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嘛！是嗎？部長？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在程序上，以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題，那我們現在也在精進，就是未來如果有類似的案件，我們當然要精進。另外就是我也有特別要求，雖然這件事情有發生這些的過程，但是我還是要求桃機公司整個T3航廈未來的運輸系統不能夠delay，不能夠延遲，這是我對桃機公司的要求。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你的要求大家都聽到了，我也不希望會發生delay的狀況，但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話，責任追究就很辛苦了。最後我只跟交通部和桃機有一個具體的要求，這一種詐騙廠商，該負的責任要它負，該負的責任要它負！沒有道理在這個過程裡面，整個國家利益因為前面的錯誤造成的犧牲，結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商，這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住，部長可不可以承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK！好。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會依法來辦理，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩、邱議瑩委員不在。","蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來有請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃國昌","葉元之","蔡易餘","王美惠","蔡其昌"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華\n航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之\n飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附\n屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算；四、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預\n算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310302_00003"}}}