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\"start\": 50.811, \"end\": 50.931, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 50.931, \"end\": 51.231, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 51.231, \"end\": 51.431, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 51.431, \"end\": 52.472, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 52.472, \"end\": 52.672, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.672, \"end\": 53.032, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 53.032, \"end\": 53.253, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 53.253, \"end\": 53.273, \"score\": 0.528}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 54.033, \"end\": 75.019, \"text\": \"其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 54.033, \"end\": 54.993, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 54.993, \"end\": 55.113, \"score\": 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\"start\": 150.589, \"end\": 151.009, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 151.009, \"end\": 151.209, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 151.209, \"end\": 151.349, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 151.349, \"end\": 151.809, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 151.809, \"end\": 152.51, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 152.51, \"end\": 152.91, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 152.91, \"end\": 153.09, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 153.09, \"end\": 153.73, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 153.73, \"end\": 153.91, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 153.91, \"end\": 154.11, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 154.11, \"end\": 154.971, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 154.971, \"end\": 155.851, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 155.851, \"end\": 156.291, 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\"text\": \"跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 519.921, \"end\": 520.161, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 520.161, \"end\": 520.561, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 520.561, \"end\": 521.102, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 521.102, \"end\": 521.222, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 521.222, \"end\": 521.422, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 521.422, \"end\": 521.562, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 521.562, \"end\": 521.802, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 521.802, \"end\": 521.922, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 521.922, \"end\": 522.182, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 522.182, \"end\": 522.422, \"score\": 0.916}, 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00:01:15,019\n其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦\n\n4\n00:01:16,139 --> 00:01:36,694\n他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺\n\n5\n00:01:38,135 --> 00:02:07,057\n並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合\n\n6\n00:02:07,918 --> 00:02:37,132\n可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你\n\n7\n00:02:37,812 --> 00:03:01,363\n你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子\n\n8\n00:03:05,632 --> 00:03:33,257\n對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係\n\n9\n00:03:34,417 --> 00:03:57,022\n那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本\n\n10\n00:03:57,862 --> 00:04:22,285\n民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬\n\n11\n00:04:23,697 --> 00:04:51,786\n好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是\n\n12\n00:04:52,847 --> 00:04:57,869\n我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動\n\n13\n00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:46,976\n那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對\n\n14\n00:05:48,177 --> 00:05:48,217\n副副長\n\n15\n00:06:03,414 --> 00:06:22,327\n從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且\n\n16\n00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:45,033\n這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面\n\n17\n00:06:45,213 --> 00:07:05,414\n所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情\n\n18\n00:07:06,094 --> 00:07:24,935\n希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的\n\n19\n00:07:27,137 --> 00:07:41,369\n所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告\n\n20\n00:07:46,297 --> 00:08:09,255\n其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長\n\n21\n00:08:10,151 --> 00:08:37,223\n蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎\n\n22\n00:08:39,921 --> 00:09:01,810\n跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁\n\n23\n00:09:03,601 --> 00:09:11,946\n我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的\n\n24\n00:09:15,814 --> 00:09:17,875\n我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練\n\n25\n00:09:45,866 --> 00:10:02,115\n對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來\n\n26\n00:10:03,663 --> 00:10:17,708\n他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的\n\n27\n00:10:18,948 --> 00:10:39,216\n那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大\n\n28\n00:10:41,704 --> 00:10:57,061\n署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快\n\n29\n00:11:00,336 --> 00:11:29,625\n報告委員這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是\n\n30\n00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:47,647\n同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來\n\n31\n00:11:51,997 --> 00:12:12,634\n查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他\n\n32\n00:12:13,414 --> 00:12:27,682\n整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個\n\n33\n00:12:28,823 --> 00:12:29,103\n職場霸凌防治與處理作業\n\n34\n00:12:47,711 --> 00:13:11,915\n的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了\n\n35\n00:13:12,555 --> 00:13:40,108\n之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員\n\n36\n00:13:43,015 --> 00:14:05,850\n好那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好謝謝謝謝陸委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1837\t7258\t好 謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了我也好好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說\n31857\t53273\t我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長\n54033\t75019\t其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦\n76139\t96694\t他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺\n98135\t127057\t並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合\n127918\t157132\t可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你\n157812\t181363\t你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子\n185632\t213257\t對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係\n214417\t237022\t那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本\n237862\t262285\t民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬\n263697\t291786\t好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是\n292847\t297869\t我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動\n321880\t346976\t那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對\n348177\t348217\t副副長\n363414\t382327\t從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且\n390480\t405033\t這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面\n405213\t425414\t所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情\n426094\t444935\t希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的\n447137\t461369\t所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告\n466297\t489255\t其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長\n490151\t517223\t蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎\n519921\t541810\t跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁\n543601\t551946\t我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的\n555814\t557875\t我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練\n585866\t602115\t對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來\n603663\t617708\t他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的\n618948\t639216\t那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大\n641704\t657061\t署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快\n660336\t689625\t報告委員 這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊 所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是\n691600\t707647\t同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來\n711997\t732634\t查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他\n733414\t747682\t整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個\n748823\t749103\t職場霸凌防治與處理作業\n767711\t791915\t的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了\n792555\t820108\t之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員\n823015\t845850\t好 那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好 謝謝謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了我也好好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說\n我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長\n其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦\n他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺\n並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合\n可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你\n你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子\n對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係\n那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本\n民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬\n好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是\n我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動\n那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對\n副副長\n從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且\n這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面\n所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情\n希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的\n所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告\n其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長\n蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎\n跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁\n我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的\n我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練\n對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來\n他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的\n那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大\n署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快\n報告委員 這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊 所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是\n同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來\n查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他\n整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個\n職場霸凌防治與處理作業\n的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了\n之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員\n好 那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好 謝謝謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.837 --> 00:07.258\n好謝謝主席那還是請我們部長辛苦了我也好好何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說\n\n00:31.857 --> 00:53.273\n我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長\n\n00:54.033 --> 01:15.019\n其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦\n\n01:16.139 --> 01:36.694\n他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺\n\n01:38.135 --> 02:07.057\n並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合\n\n02:07.918 --> 02:37.132\n可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你\n\n02:37.812 --> 03:01.363\n你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子\n\n03:05.632 --> 03:33.257\n對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係\n\n03:34.417 --> 03:57.022\n那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本\n\n03:57.862 --> 04:22.285\n民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬\n\n04:23.697 --> 04:51.786\n好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是\n\n04:52.847 --> 04:57.869\n我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動\n\n05:21.880 --> 05:46.976\n那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對\n\n05:48.177 --> 05:48.217\n副副長\n\n06:03.414 --> 06:22.327\n從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且\n\n06:30.480 --> 06:45.033\n這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面\n\n06:45.213 --> 07:05.414\n所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情\n\n07:06.094 --> 07:24.935\n希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的\n\n07:27.137 --> 07:41.369\n所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告\n\n07:46.297 --> 08:09.255\n其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長\n\n08:10.151 --> 08:37.223\n蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎\n\n08:39.921 --> 09:01.810\n跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁\n\n09:03.601 --> 09:11.946\n我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的\n\n09:15.814 --> 09:17.875\n我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練\n\n09:45.866 --> 10:02.115\n對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來\n\n10:03.663 --> 10:17.708\n他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的\n\n10:18.948 --> 10:39.216\n那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大\n\n10:41.704 --> 10:57.061\n署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快\n\n11:00.336 --> 11:29.625\n報告委員這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是\n\n11:31.600 --> 11:47.647\n同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來\n\n11:51.997 --> 12:12.634\n查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他\n\n12:13.414 --> 12:27.682\n整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個\n\n12:28.823 --> 12:29.103\n職場霸凌防治與處理作業\n\n12:47.711 --> 13:11.915\n的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了\n\n13:12.555 --> 13:40.108\n之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員\n\n13:43.015 --> 14:05.850\n好那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好謝謝謝謝陸委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.837,"end":7.258,"text":"好 謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了我也好好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說"},{"start":31.857,"end":53.273,"text":"我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長"},{"start":54.033,"end":75.019,"text":"其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦"},{"start":76.139,"end":96.694,"text":"他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺"},{"start":98.135,"end":127.057,"text":"並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合"},{"start":127.918,"end":157.132,"text":"可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你"},{"start":157.812,"end":181.363,"text":"你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子"},{"start":185.632,"end":213.257,"text":"對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係"},{"start":214.417,"end":237.022,"text":"那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本"},{"start":237.862,"end":262.285,"text":"民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬"},{"start":263.697,"end":291.786,"text":"好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是"},{"start":292.847,"end":297.869,"text":"我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動"},{"start":321.88,"end":346.976,"text":"那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對"},{"start":348.177,"end":348.217,"text":"副副長"},{"start":363.414,"end":382.327,"text":"從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且"},{"start":390.48,"end":405.033,"text":"這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面"},{"start":405.213,"end":425.414,"text":"所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情"},{"start":426.094,"end":444.935,"text":"希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的"},{"start":447.137,"end":461.369,"text":"所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告"},{"start":466.297,"end":489.255,"text":"其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長"},{"start":490.151,"end":517.223,"text":"蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":519.921,"end":541.81,"text":"跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁"},{"start":543.601,"end":551.946,"text":"我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的"},{"start":555.814,"end":557.875,"text":"我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練"},{"start":585.866,"end":602.115,"text":"對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來"},{"start":603.663,"end":617.708,"text":"他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的"},{"start":618.948,"end":639.216,"text":"那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大"},{"start":641.704,"end":657.061,"text":"署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快"},{"start":660.336,"end":689.625,"text":"報告委員 這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊 所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是"},{"start":691.6,"end":707.647,"text":"同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來"},{"start":711.997,"end":732.634,"text":"查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他"},{"start":733.414,"end":747.682,"text":"整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個"},{"start":748.823,"end":749.103,"text":"職場霸凌防治與處理作業"},{"start":767.711,"end":791.915,"text":"的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了"},{"start":792.555,"end":820.108,"text":"之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":823.015,"end":845.85,"text":"好 那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好 謝謝謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1469,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時18分）謝謝主席，還是請部長，辛苦了！"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：何部長，我知道今天你的壓力也很大，也很辛苦！但這是社會大眾很關注的事情，我覺得有些地方還是要說明釐清一下。之前我擔任議員時，前次長王安邦是在市府擔任局長，所以我們也算是認識，針對王次長到底有沒有約談過謝分署長這個部分，大家好像一直都沒有說清楚，是不是？部長，到底他有沒有事先約談謝分署長？"],["何部長佩珊：其實早上我就已經回答委員的詢問，我真的不清楚、我只是聽說，所以我們現在要重新立案調查。"],["涂委員權吉：好像也說要針對這個部分提出調查，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候，我聽到陳瑩委員及其他委員的看法，她說其實重點已經不在於有沒有約談，因為這個根本就是有約談，重點是約談後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉，這個才是調查的重點。我相信剛剛部長應該也聽得很清楚，所以我也希望針對這個部分真的要好好的調查，因為我們都認為這件事感覺並不是謝分署長個人的事情，誠如媒體所言，這件事感覺就是後台很硬。而且我們也知道王安邦次長在晚上12點匆匆被發布離職新聞稿，那時候我們還開玩笑，奇怪！霸凌人的分署長沒有離職，反而約談人的次長就離職了，或許部長認為這可能是一個巧合，但是我覺得這份調查報告真的很重要，相信社會大眾也很想知道、也很想釐清。你看剛剛的臨時提案，不單是國民黨通過，連執政的民進黨也認為這件事情真的有必要調查得清清楚楚，而且該送檢調的送檢調、該送監察的送監察。今天大家對於你們勞動部提出的報告真的是不滿意，據我們的了解，監察院現在也要介入調查，你會不會擔心到時候監察院做出的調查與勞動部好像不太一樣？因為勞動部說吳姓職員這個部分與謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係，你們的報告是不是這樣寫？你們認為沒有直接的關係？"],["何部長佩珊：調查報告裡面呈現的是這樣子。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也看過你的報告，針對這個部分有兩個重點，一個就是剛剛你所講的，謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁，至於這位吳姓職員的死因與謝分署長的霸凌，在你們的報告裡是說沒有直接的關係，但是有間接的關係。其實針對這個部分，我們也很關心、也看過很多網路上網友的留言，在這裡也與你分享一下，不過聽起來是很諷刺。有網友說「直接的死因與霸凌無關，但是與這根繩子有關」，我覺得講這句話對於你們的報告真的是很諷刺，可見民眾對你們這份報告根本無法接受。既然剛剛也說要重啟調查，我覺得重啟調查對勞動部而言也是一件好事，希望能夠真的讓真相大白，不要讓社會大眾心中有疑慮存在，畢竟這件事關係到一條人命及受害者的家屬。","接下來要請問蔡署長，也讓部長休息一下。蔡署長，你看一下這張簡報是大概的時間表，11月8日這個新聞曝光，署長是不是在11月8日之前去過北分署關心、安撫這些同仁？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好像是11月7日去的？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這個部分，部長後來有沒有去北分署與這些同仁溝通並且安撫他們？"],["何部長佩珊：我本來有要去的，後來因為……當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動，也有同仁認為我不應該去，所以我就尊重啦！為什麼我會啟動調查，也是這個原因。我在想為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢？一定是有問題。"],["涂委員權吉：在這件事情發生後，分署的許多同仁對部長好像也不是很諒解，據我們的了解，現在勞動部很多同仁都一直在看部長的態度，希望部長針對這個部分真的要嚴辦。從剛剛看到臨時動議，我一直覺得部長感覺上好像還是有一點包袱，針對停職的部分，你好像一直沒有很明確表示，好像還希望能有轉圜的餘地。"],["何部長佩珊：不是、不是，委員，我向你報告，這個絕對會是我考慮的範圍，而且這個是沒有問題的。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我希望部長還是要表現出你的態度。剛剛很多委員也擔心，如果這位分署長還待在分署裡面，可能還是會影響到調查報告。"],["何部長佩珊：她不會待在分署裡面。"],["涂委員權吉：基本上，如果她停職靜待調查，我覺得對部長也是一件好事。至於部長現在的態度，我希望能讓勞動部的同仁有信心，要讓他們感覺真的是要處理這件事情，不要讓他們變成對很多事情不敢真正表態，甚至只能利用網路爆料講這些事情，也希望之後出來的調查報告能獲得社會大眾的認同。針對謝分署長的部分，其實大家也都知道，她在分署不到二年的時間，退離職就高達81個人，其中有6個人是自願降職調離。想想看，大家在官場都是希望能升職，居然有這麼多人寧可降職都要離開這個地方，因此，我相信大家都很知道為什麼謝分署長有這麼強硬的後台？其實這份報告所說的什麼目的良善都不用再講了，很多委員及社會大眾對這份報告真的是看不下去！此外，請問一下，這位謝分署長在擔任分署長之前是否也曾經發生過霸凌的行為？"],["何部長佩珊：不了解，這個要問署長。"],["涂委員權吉：蔡署長？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，之前並沒有反映。"],["涂委員權吉：之前並沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。"],["涂委員權吉：在你們的報告中表示，謝分署長霸凌的行為與情緒管理及溝通能力有關。針對這個部分，蔡署長能否說明一下北分署的業務大概有幾個重點？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，北分署現在是我們五個分署中轄區最大的分署，基本上，它的業務乘載量大概佔了將近三分之一。"],["涂委員權吉：它的主要業務範圍是什麼？"],["蔡署長孟良：主要是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定及一些移工的相關事務。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！其實它的重點在於就業服務與職業訓練的部分，但是我們看一下謝分署長的資歷，她有哪一個資歷與就業服務或職業訓練有關係？看起來都與這些沒有關係啊！因此，針對這個部分，我覺得要她勝任分署長的職務可能也有一點為難她了！勞動部在這之前是否有像這樣沒有就業服務、沒有就業訓練等相關經歷就可以接任分署長的例子？之前有沒有這樣的狀況？蔡署長知道嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我本人就是。原本我是在移工業務，後來我到中區職訓做職業訓練。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛署長說這位分署長之前沒有發生過霸凌的事情，後來她擔任分署長的業務並不是她的專長，你看一下她的資歷，其實她主管的是公關業務與新聞聯絡人，照這樣來講，她的EQ與溝通能力應該是沒有關係的，但是她到這個團隊之後，可能會讓人家感覺她是外行領導內行，整天就要同仁發新聞稿、做媒體經營，難怪會讓下面的同仁感覺壓力很大。署長，當初將她升任為分署長是依據什麼考量？這樣看起來，人家說她是搭直升機，原本只是部裡的專委，一下就升到分署長，感覺升官的途徑是不是有點快啊？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，其實我們每位主管在升任的過程中都會有一些評估，當然現在這個事件是有一些不當的情況，我想這些都必須要檢討。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！署長，這位分署長並不是在何佩珊部長任內升職的分署長，而是在之前許銘春部長的任內升職，署長一樣是蔡孟良署長，媒體一直報導說你們就是同一個派系，聽說是菊系一脈相傳下來，許銘春部長也是，而且聽說謝分署長也是蔡署長的愛將。針對這個部分的問題，我希望還是要嚴加查看，這份調查報告也一定要詳細的做。根據我們整體評估這個結果，針對勞動部的這份報告，剛剛我們問了那麼多，發現勞動部有很多的問題不敢面對，而且一直在迴避。整個報告只針對情緒失控與言語暴力、職場霸凌與同仁自縊兩個部分去處理，其實綜觀來看謝分署長，她並不是這個專業本行出身，可以說是外行要領導這些通過高普考的勞動部分署官員，職業訓練與就業服務不是她的專長，所以她欠缺了這方面的業務能力。此外，就她的資歷而言，也是屬於署長及前部長破格任用。當然她本身是外行領導內行，以前她沒有霸凌的問題，為什麼到了這個位置之後就有霸凌的行為？我們認為應該是她自己本身壓力太大。因此，除了之前針對職場霸凌及情緒失控進行的調查報告之外，我們希望後面的報告也能針對三個部分，包括欠缺核心業務能力、為什麼會破格任用，以及她在任內是如何領導，造成下屬無法接受她的霸凌行為，希望部長與署長能針對這個部分將調查報告做得更詳盡，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：部長及署長都辛苦了！但我們也希望勞動部在這件事之後能夠痛定思痛，並藉由這次的調查報告將一些問題釐清，大家好好的檢討改善，因為勞動部是全國勞工最高的中央機關，大家都非常的關注，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}}