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\"end\": 623.96, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 623.96, \"end\": 624.94, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 624.94, \"end\": 625.06, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 625.06, \"end\": 625.361, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 625.361, \"end\": 625.501, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 625.501, \"end\": 625.521, \"score\": 0.973}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,611 --> 00:00:00,792\n主席\n\n2\n00:00:11,590 --> 00:00:35,153\n沈委員好主委好那這個因為是預算會期所以我都問一些跟之前這個質詢有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伍會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個\n\n3\n00:00:36,334 --> 00:00:59,124\n輔導期限、輔導措施這個是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我待會會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題\n\n4\n00:01:02,705 --> 00:01:31,259\n那舊學執訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務\n\n5\n00:01:32,259 --> 00:01:50,809\n那其實退輔會不管是在發放做各式各樣的福利等等之類的還有對這個退休軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的這個忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為\n\n6\n00:01:51,649 --> 00:02:18,482\n這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候顏主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候能不能夠有一些規定上的改變\n\n7\n00:02:19,142 --> 00:02:40,474\n那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談但那時候都建議說先不要做這樣的一個修法結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了所以我是認為說這一個因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的三至一條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施\n\n8\n00:02:41,014 --> 00:03:02,703\n那之前跟退府會在談的時候呢,退府會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這一件事情呢,確實在最下面這一段在喪失權益的部分我認為在喪失權益的部分,國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退府會這邊只是配合\n\n9\n00:03:03,403 --> 00:03:17,739\n但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款\n\n10\n00:03:18,420 --> 00:03:37,154\n那之前這個在溝通的過程當中這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正\n\n11\n00:03:37,774 --> 00:03:38,134\nOK我先說明\n\n12\n00:03:54,864 --> 00:04:10,657\n退伍為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了\n\n13\n00:04:12,818 --> 00:04:37,199\n福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出去官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島條例這樣定定現行證三十二條之二這裡面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法的罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法\n\n14\n00:04:37,759 --> 00:05:03,694\n那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定\n\n15\n00:05:06,896 --> 00:05:23,024\n因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來\n\n16\n00:05:23,652 --> 00:05:52,001\n那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這個退輔會可以做決定的地方\n\n17\n00:05:52,594 --> 00:06:20,217\n所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見\n\n18\n00:06:21,798 --> 00:06:21,958\n委員會主管收支部分\n\n19\n00:06:38,322 --> 00:06:55,867\n接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們\n\n20\n00:06:56,747 --> 00:07:10,056\n就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們\n\n21\n00:07:11,055 --> 00:07:24,694\n那按照剛剛董寶誠教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬興委員已經離開了在講到說\n\n22\n00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:40,909\n關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了\n\n23\n00:07:47,874 --> 00:08:10,581\n我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管\n\n24\n00:08:11,281 --> 00:08:30,563\n他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向\n\n25\n00:08:31,324 --> 00:08:50,950\n因為時間已經到了,我問最後一個事情就好就是之前我們一直,就是我剛剛講的那個職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的那個預算是有增加啦其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索\n\n26\n00:08:52,290 --> 00:09:10,738\n我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長\n\n27\n00:09:11,939 --> 00:09:24,121\n如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加比如說報名等等之類的那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊什麼等等之類的讓預算能夠更好的發揮在有效的這一個質押探索上\n\n28\n00:09:25,188 --> 00:09:30,911\n謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天一百一十年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是一百一十五場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持十五場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦\n\n29\n00:09:52,921 --> 00:09:53,862\n謝謝委員我們會跟國防部協商加強宣導謝謝\n\n30\n00:10:19,056 --> 00:10:25,521\n好那麼在預算的時候可能就會特別再針對這一點然後看能不能把這個場次增加好謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n611\t792\t主席\n11590\t35153\t沈委員好主委好那這個因為是預算會期所以我都問一些跟之前這個質詢有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伍會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個\n36334\t59124\t輔導期限、輔導措施這個是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我待會會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題\n62705\t91259\t那舊學執訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務\n92259\t110809\t那其實退輔會不管是在發放做各式各樣的福利等等之類的還有對這個退休軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的這個忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為\n111649\t138482\t這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候顏主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候能不能夠有一些規定上的改變\n139142\t160474\t那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談但那時候都建議說先不要做這樣的一個修法結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了所以我是認為說這一個因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的三至一條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施\n161014\t182703\t那之前跟退府會在談的時候呢,退府會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這一件事情呢,確實在最下面這一段在喪失權益的部分我認為在喪失權益的部分,國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退府會這邊只是配合\n183403\t197739\t但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款\n198420\t217154\t那之前這個在溝通的過程當中這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正\n217774\t218134\tOK 我先說明\n234864\t250657\t退伍為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了\n252818\t277199\t福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出去官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島條例這樣定定現行證三十二條之二這裡面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法的罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法\n277759\t303694\t那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定\n306896\t323024\t因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來\n323652\t352001\t那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這個退輔會可以做決定的地方\n352594\t380217\t所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見\n381798\t381958\t委員會主管收支部分\n398322\t415867\t接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們\n416747\t430056\t就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們\n431055\t444694\t那按照剛剛董寶誠教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬興委員已經離開了在講到說\n447920\t460909\t關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了\n467874\t490581\t我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管\n491281\t510563\t他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向\n511324\t530950\t因為時間已經到了,我問最後一個事情就好就是之前我們一直,就是我剛剛講的那個職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的那個預算是有增加啦其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索\n532290\t550738\t我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長\n551939\t564121\t如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加比如說報名等等之類的那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊什麼等等之類的讓預算能夠更好的發揮在有效的這一個質押探索上\n565188\t570911\t謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天一百一十年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是一百一十五場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持十五場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦\n592921\t593862\t謝謝委員我們會跟國防部協商加強宣導謝謝\n619056\t625521\t好 那麼在預算的時候可能就會特別再針對這一點然後看能不能把這個場次增加好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n","txt":"主席\n沈委員好主委好那這個因為是預算會期所以我都問一些跟之前這個質詢有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伍會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個\n輔導期限、輔導措施這個是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我待會會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題\n那舊學執訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務\n那其實退輔會不管是在發放做各式各樣的福利等等之類的還有對這個退休軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的這個忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為\n這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候顏主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候能不能夠有一些規定上的改變\n那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談但那時候都建議說先不要做這樣的一個修法結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了所以我是認為說這一個因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的三至一條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施\n那之前跟退府會在談的時候呢,退府會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這一件事情呢,確實在最下面這一段在喪失權益的部分我認為在喪失權益的部分,國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退府會這邊只是配合\n但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款\n那之前這個在溝通的過程當中這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正\nOK 我先說明\n退伍為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了\n福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出去官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島條例這樣定定現行證三十二條之二這裡面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法的罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法\n那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定\n因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來\n那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這個退輔會可以做決定的地方\n所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見\n委員會主管收支部分\n接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們\n就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們\n那按照剛剛董寶誠教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬興委員已經離開了在講到說\n關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了\n我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管\n他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向\n因為時間已經到了,我問最後一個事情就好就是之前我們一直,就是我剛剛講的那個職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的那個預算是有增加啦其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索\n我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長\n如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加比如說報名等等之類的那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊什麼等等之類的讓預算能夠更好的發揮在有效的這一個質押探索上\n謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天一百一十年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是一百一十五場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持十五場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦\n謝謝委員我們會跟國防部協商加強宣導謝謝\n好 那麼在預算的時候可能就會特別再針對這一點然後看能不能把這個場次增加好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.611 --> 00:00.792\n主席\n\n00:11.590 --> 00:35.153\n沈委員好主委好那這個因為是預算會期所以我都問一些跟之前這個質詢有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伍會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個\n\n00:36.334 --> 00:59.124\n輔導期限、輔導措施這個是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我待會會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題\n\n01:02.705 --> 01:31.259\n那舊學執訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務\n\n01:32.259 --> 01:50.809\n那其實退輔會不管是在發放做各式各樣的福利等等之類的還有對這個退休軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的這個忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為\n\n01:51.649 --> 02:18.482\n這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候顏主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候能不能夠有一些規定上的改變\n\n02:19.142 --> 02:40.474\n那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談但那時候都建議說先不要做這樣的一個修法結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了所以我是認為說這一個因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的三至一條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施\n\n02:41.014 --> 03:02.703\n那之前跟退府會在談的時候呢,退府會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這一件事情呢,確實在最下面這一段在喪失權益的部分我認為在喪失權益的部分,國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退府會這邊只是配合\n\n03:03.403 --> 03:17.739\n但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款\n\n03:18.420 --> 03:37.154\n那之前這個在溝通的過程當中這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正\n\n03:37.774 --> 03:38.134\nOK我先說明\n\n03:54.864 --> 04:10.657\n退伍為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了\n\n04:12.818 --> 04:37.199\n福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出去官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島條例這樣定定現行證三十二條之二這裡面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法的罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法\n\n04:37.759 --> 05:03.694\n那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定\n\n05:06.896 --> 05:23.024\n因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來\n\n05:23.652 --> 05:52.001\n那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這個退輔會可以做決定的地方\n\n05:52.594 --> 06:20.217\n所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見\n\n06:21.798 --> 06:21.958\n委員會主管收支部分\n\n06:38.322 --> 06:55.867\n接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們\n\n06:56.747 --> 07:10.056\n就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們\n\n07:11.055 --> 07:24.694\n那按照剛剛董寶誠教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬興委員已經離開了在講到說\n\n07:27.920 --> 07:40.909\n關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了\n\n07:47.874 --> 08:10.581\n我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管\n\n08:11.281 --> 08:30.563\n他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向\n\n08:31.324 --> 08:50.950\n因為時間已經到了,我問最後一個事情就好就是之前我們一直,就是我剛剛講的那個職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的那個預算是有增加啦其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索\n\n08:52.290 --> 09:10.738\n我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長\n\n09:11.939 --> 09:24.121\n如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加比如說報名等等之類的那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊什麼等等之類的讓預算能夠更好的發揮在有效的這一個質押探索上\n\n09:25.188 --> 09:30.911\n謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天一百一十年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是一百一十五場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持十五場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦\n\n09:52.921 --> 09:53.862\n謝謝委員我們會跟國防部協商加強宣導謝謝\n\n10:19.056 --> 10:25.521\n好那麼在預算的時候可能就會特別再針對這一點然後看能不能把這個場次增加好謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.611,"end":0.792,"text":"主席"},{"start":11.59,"end":35.153,"text":"沈委員好主委好那這個因為是預算會期所以我都問一些跟之前這個質詢有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伍會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個"},{"start":36.334,"end":59.124,"text":"輔導期限、輔導措施這個是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我待會會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題"},{"start":62.705,"end":91.259,"text":"那舊學執訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務"},{"start":92.259,"end":110.809,"text":"那其實退輔會不管是在發放做各式各樣的福利等等之類的還有對這個退休軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的這個忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為"},{"start":111.649,"end":138.482,"text":"這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候顏主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候能不能夠有一些規定上的改變"},{"start":139.142,"end":160.474,"text":"那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談但那時候都建議說先不要做這樣的一個修法結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了所以我是認為說這一個因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的三至一條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施"},{"start":161.014,"end":182.703,"text":"那之前跟退府會在談的時候呢,退府會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這一件事情呢,確實在最下面這一段在喪失權益的部分我認為在喪失權益的部分,國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退府會這邊只是配合"},{"start":183.403,"end":197.739,"text":"但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款"},{"start":198.42,"end":217.154,"text":"那之前這個在溝通的過程當中這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正"},{"start":217.774,"end":218.134,"text":"OK 我先說明"},{"start":234.864,"end":250.657,"text":"退伍為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了"},{"start":252.818,"end":277.199,"text":"福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出去官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島條例這樣定定現行證三十二條之二這裡面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法的罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法"},{"start":277.759,"end":303.694,"text":"那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定"},{"start":306.896,"end":323.024,"text":"因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來"},{"start":323.652,"end":352.001,"text":"那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這個退輔會可以做決定的地方"},{"start":352.594,"end":380.217,"text":"所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見"},{"start":381.798,"end":381.958,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":398.322,"end":415.867,"text":"接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們"},{"start":416.747,"end":430.056,"text":"就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們"},{"start":431.055,"end":444.694,"text":"那按照剛剛董寶誠教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬興委員已經離開了在講到說"},{"start":447.92,"end":460.909,"text":"關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了"},{"start":467.874,"end":490.581,"text":"我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管"},{"start":491.281,"end":510.563,"text":"他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向"},{"start":511.324,"end":530.95,"text":"因為時間已經到了,我問最後一個事情就好就是之前我們一直,就是我剛剛講的那個職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的那個預算是有增加啦其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索"},{"start":532.29,"end":550.738,"text":"我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長"},{"start":551.939,"end":564.121,"text":"如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加比如說報名等等之類的那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊什麼等等之類的讓預算能夠更好的發揮在有效的這一個質押探索上"},{"start":565.188,"end":570.911,"text":"謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天一百一十年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是一百一十五場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持十五場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦"},{"start":592.921,"end":593.862,"text":"謝謝委員我們會跟國防部協商加強宣導謝謝"},{"start":619.056,"end":625.521,"text":"好 那麼在預算的時候可能就會特別再針對這一點然後看能不能把這個場次增加好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時38分）謝謝主席，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：主委好。因為是預算會期，所以我都問一些跟之前質詢有關的，就是預算相關的事項，但有一些是在520之前，所以可能我就再稍微盤點一下。前面這個是我們根據現在退輔會的報告，我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的除役官兵，然後有不同的輔導期限、輔導措施，然後這個是目前的核心業務，裡面有幾個問題，我待會兒會從這個核心業務來問，主委一定很熟悉，這個我就這樣略過。我看今年的這一個案子，我們看到當然還是退除給付的%數增加的比較多，那就養少了一點點，這可能只是單純跟就養的人數有關係，我覺得這個應該都沒什麼問題；就學職訓是增加，但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高，所以這個部分待會兒我會想詢問一下。","第一個我當然還是先想詢問一下，就是國軍忠誠義務的問題，這邊我是引用釋字781號當時董保城教授的投影片，雖然董保城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣，不過我們引用他的說法，他說軍人對國家有忠誠義務，但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務，其實退輔會不管是在發放、做各式各樣的福利等等之類的，還有對退休軍人的照顧，我覺得應該都是後者，對不對？但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務，還是必須取決於軍人對國家的忠誠義務。最近的這一次案件讓我特別有感是因為，我應該不用講這個案件的內容，你們應該都非常的熟悉，就是呂禮詩這一次說他見證祖國的強大，我為什麼問這個問題是因為，那時候嚴主委還沒有來，就是說在之前的退輔會的時候，我那時候就一直在問，就是我們針對不管是反滲透法，或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段，我們到底在停止或者說他要喪失這個相關給付的時候，能不能夠有一些規定上的改變？那時候我們也想跟國防部一起談，但那時候都是建議先不要做這樣的修法，結果這種事情現在又再發生一次了。","所以我是認為，按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例第三條之一，退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施。之前跟退輔會在談的時候，退輔會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關，很多事情是國防部在決定，那這件事情確實在最下面這一段的喪失權益部分，我認為在喪失權益的部分，國防部大概是有一個比較大的say，就是基本上是國防部在做決定，退輔會這邊只是配合。但是現在第三十二條前半段這個叫權益的停止，目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝，這個會有停止，那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款？之前在溝通的過程當中，退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來，但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了，我們自己是已經提了兩岸條例第九條之三相關的規定，但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊，其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正，因為這邊還是要尊重退輔會的一些意見，所以會想說是不是在接下來的這段時間，我們至少能夠研議，就是至少在停止權益的這一個部分，能不能夠做一些比較精細的修正？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員說明，我們退輔會的核心職責就是依據憲法，國家有義務跟責任對這些崇功報勳退伍軍人的就學、就業、就醫、就養，有責任去做照顧跟服務，因此輔導條例就產生了，但是輔導條例它主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務，對退除役官兵的輔導安置，包含權益的保障等這些照顧，所以我們的條例是這樣訂定。那現行第三十二條之二裡面所規範的，不管是內亂、外患跟貪污治罪條例，還有刑法的這些罪，那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例、國安法，到我們這邊，我們就據以執行，前面有些例子都是這樣，不管退伍軍人是什麼樣的人，他只要是在前面權責機關、相關的主政機關審定之後，我們的退除給與這部分絕對是依法行政來做，現在還有一些案件還正在做。所以我跟委員報告，我的建議是由相關的主政機關、權責機關去做審慎認定，因為我們是執行單位，包含輔導條例裡面所做的，都是依據這個大的原則來做。"],["沈委員伯洋：要跟主委報告一下，因為我們也修了外患，就是我們有提出相關的修正，兩岸條例第九條之三的修正也會出來，那兩岸條例第九條之三一旦修了以後，這邊就會搭配、就會跟著連動，所以它既然在下面的喪失這邊會連動，這個基本上我想退輔會也一定沒有意見，就是那邊既然連動了，你這邊譬如你有哪些條款，像國安法現在如果要增訂的話，它是不是也要放進來？我覺得這邊應該是還好。","但我想問的是停止的部分，因為停止的部分照理說退輔會有一定的空間可以來做決定，這是退輔會可以做決定的地方，所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止，它有沒有一些彈性，這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的，因為我們不可能在所有的情形，兩岸條例第九條之三一旦發生了就全部喪失，我們也不太可能做這樣的事情，因為它一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶。所以如果今天不是到喪失的程度的話，今天要怎麼做？我們在兩岸條例這邊自己會去想一些措施，但我們在想這些措施的時候可能就會請教退輔會的意見，因為這個畢竟會連動，有些人可能不到喪失，如果讓他停止的話，有沒有辦法在這邊做一些相關的修正？這是我剛剛想要知道的事情。所以這個我們就會同步進行，因為兩岸條例第九條之三的草案我們已經在寫了，外患罪跟國安法的部分我們已經送出去了。","接下來我要講的也是我們看到的，現在輿論跟剛剛主委講的有點類似，有的說這是在羞辱軍人，這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的，但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們，他們到中國不管是參與什麼樣的活動、有些什麼樣的發言，其實是他在傷害我們的國軍，也在傷害我們退休的官兵，所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們。","按照剛剛董保城教授的意見，當你今天連最基本的忠誠義務都沒辦法做到的時候，我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整。巧芯委員已經離開了，他有講到什麼官兵奏樂等等之類的，但這並不是直接讓我們國家會被侵略、會被統戰的直接發生事項，所以我覺得這當然是不能夠類比的事情。如果我們現在對忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話，之後我們對於這樣的給付，這些人就沒有成本了。","我記得之前嚴主委面對黃埔相關活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮，他們在做我們也同步進行，讓他們能夠參與我們自己這邊的活動而不去參加他們的，這就是一個很好的預防措施。所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些，我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為；但一定會有少部分的人完全不管，他不管這些，就是要違反國家利益去做這些事。對於這些人，我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本，因為他們已經不會因為經濟等等之類的利益，而他們會不計這些國家的利益就是要做，對於這些人我們必須提高他們的成本，我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向。","因為時間已經到了，我問最後一件事情就好，就是我剛剛講的職涯輔導那一塊，我看到預算是有增加，雖然那個百分比看起來很小，但對我們這個好幾億的預算來講，當然增加的也算多。我看到這次的預算裡面有提到職涯探索，我看明年好像還是15個場次，但是因為我之前跟退輔會……在520之前的時候，他們也一直跟我們講職涯探索的成效不錯，所以這邊也是……因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的職涯探索，我之前也有提過，我記得澳洲可能是3天，美國是5天比較長。如果場次現在沒辦法實質增加的話，譬如報名等等之類的，時間能不能稍微拉長一點，讓預算能夠更好地發揮在有效的職涯探索上？"],["池處長玉蘭：謝謝委員，我是就學就業處處長，跟您報告我們現行的職涯探索營是三天兩夜。"],["沈委員伯洋：現在已經變三天兩夜了，太好了！所以時間現在已經拉長了，那場次的部分呢？"],["池處長玉蘭：我們110年開始就是三天兩夜，今年是15場次，明年我們跟國防部協商，它還是維持15場次，後續如果國防部有需求，我們可以配合增辦，謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：那就是時間上看起來比較沒什麼問題，因為時間夠長，但是如果場次能夠增加，因為我看到之前在講它的滿意程度等等之類是高的，問題是來報的那些人，他們可能是因為動機強所以當然會滿意，但現在問題是希望能讓那些沒有想報的人也來參加，他也能感受到滿意，這個職涯探索就會有一定的意義。"],["池處長玉蘭：謝謝委員，我們會跟國防部協商並加強宣導，謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們在預算的時候可能就會特別針對這一點，看能不能把場次增加。"],["池處長玉蘭：好。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，主委請回。","接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","葉元之","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","王定宇"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00002"}}}