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{\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 562.602, \"end\": 562.962, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 562.962, \"end\": 563.002, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 563.002, \"end\": 563.122, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 563.122, \"end\": 563.142, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 585.04, \"end\": 585.12, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 585.12, \"end\": 585.14, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,532 --> 00:00:00,712\n請言主委\n\n2\n00:00:09,239 --> 00:00:30,233\n陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及執放遷都任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月\n\n3\n00:00:32,194 --> 00:00:59,349\n假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?\n\n4\n00:01:02,655 --> 00:01:28,501\n現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些君子我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種\n\n5\n00:01:29,421 --> 00:01:55,846\n基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的\n\n6\n00:01:56,946 --> 00:02:24,351\n相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分\n\n7\n00:02:25,231 --> 00:02:44,676\n主委怎麼看現在提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件是自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控看到他的言行反常\n\n8\n00:02:45,576 --> 00:02:58,528\n不僅僅每一個人都會跟他一樣所以其他人看到言行反常他就會檢控這是非常好的現象那就是提高警覺人人都是保防員做到這個程度那我想我們內部就可以鞏固\n\n9\n00:02:59,554 --> 00:03:15,820\n主委過去你擔任軍人的時候我們進去各個不同的機構他們是認人還是認證主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人依照對\n\n10\n00:03:28,985 --> 00:03:29,725\n是有可能啦因為就是熟視嘛\n\n11\n00:03:51,076 --> 00:04:09,393\n那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下\n\n12\n00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:17,981\n國安情治單位安全許可認證\n\n13\n00:04:43,897 --> 00:05:10,642\n當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以這個以法治為主不要用這個以人或者是他的以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的\n\n14\n00:05:11,977 --> 00:05:33,087\n最近我們常常在看就是退將復中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發覺到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面\n\n15\n00:05:34,107 --> 00:05:57,444\n其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判\n\n16\n00:05:58,084 --> 00:06:12,507\n但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠\n\n17\n00:06:13,755 --> 00:06:39,173\n大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些能事\n\n18\n00:06:39,993 --> 00:06:55,338\n基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力\n\n19\n00:06:56,118 --> 00:06:56,218\n陳冠廷\n\n20\n00:07:18,271 --> 00:07:43,273\n什麼部分我們可以來講因為土法不可以自信一定是有什麼原因波動著他們讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大對台灣自己的國軍的批判不是批判甚至就是鄙視這麼多那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的不知道這個mindset這個心態或者是這個是怎麼回事你覺得主委有什麼辦法可以來去管\n\n21\n00:07:43,533 --> 00:08:01,494\n我跟委員報告,依我的觀察,我的體會,因為近年兩岸情勢關係,所以中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極,包含所有的這些利誘\n\n22\n00:08:02,415 --> 00:08:06,558\n謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破\n\n23\n00:08:29,933 --> 00:08:50,870\n對一定有情懷就是說哇這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景啊教育背景啊那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面\n\n24\n00:08:51,935 --> 00:09:20,861\n我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述\n\n25\n00:09:21,801 --> 00:09:23,142\n我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位\n\n26\n00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:45,140\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n532\t712\t請言主委\n9239\t30233\t陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及執放遷都任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月\n32194\t59349\t假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?\n62655\t88501\t現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些君子我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種\n89421\t115846\t基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的\n116946\t144351\t相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分\n145231\t164676\t主委怎麼看現在提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件是自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控看到他的言行反常\n165576\t178528\t不僅僅每一個人都會跟他一樣所以其他人看到言行反常他就會檢控這是非常好的現象那就是提高警覺人人都是保防員做到這個程度那我想我們內部就可以鞏固\n179554\t195820\t主委過去你擔任軍人的時候我們進去各個不同的機構他們是認人還是認證主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人依照對\n208985\t209725\t是有可能啦 因為就是熟視嘛\n231076\t249393\t那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下\n257280\t257981\t國安情治單位安全許可認證\n283897\t310642\t當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以這個以法治為主不要用這個以人或者是他的以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的\n311977\t333087\t最近我們常常在看就是退將復中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發覺到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面\n334107\t357444\t其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判\n358084\t372507\t但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠\n373755\t399173\t大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些能事\n399993\t415338\t基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力\n416118\t416218\t陳冠廷\n438271\t463273\t什麼部分我們可以來講因為土法不可以自信一定是有什麼原因波動著他們讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大對台灣自己的國軍的批判不是批判甚至就是鄙視這麼多那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的不知道這個mindset這個心態或者是這個是怎麼回事你覺得主委有什麼辦法可以來去管\n463533\t481494\t我跟委員報告,依我的觀察,我的體會,因為近年兩岸情勢關係,所以中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極,包含所有的這些利誘\n482415\t486558\t謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破\n509933\t530870\t對一定有情懷就是說哇這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景啊教育背景啊那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面\n531935\t560861\t我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述\n561801\t563142\t我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位\n585040\t585140\t主席\n","txt":"請言主委\n陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及執放遷都任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月\n假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?\n現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些君子我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種\n基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的\n相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分\n主委怎麼看現在提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件是自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控看到他的言行反常\n不僅僅每一個人都會跟他一樣所以其他人看到言行反常他就會檢控這是非常好的現象那就是提高警覺人人都是保防員做到這個程度那我想我們內部就可以鞏固\n主委過去你擔任軍人的時候我們進去各個不同的機構他們是認人還是認證主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人依照對\n是有可能啦 因為就是熟視嘛\n那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下\n國安情治單位安全許可認證\n當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以這個以法治為主不要用這個以人或者是他的以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的\n最近我們常常在看就是退將復中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發覺到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面\n其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判\n但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠\n大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些能事\n基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力\n陳冠廷\n什麼部分我們可以來講因為土法不可以自信一定是有什麼原因波動著他們讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大對台灣自己的國軍的批判不是批判甚至就是鄙視這麼多那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的不知道這個mindset這個心態或者是這個是怎麼回事你覺得主委有什麼辦法可以來去管\n我跟委員報告,依我的觀察,我的體會,因為近年兩岸情勢關係,所以中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極,包含所有的這些利誘\n謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破\n對一定有情懷就是說哇這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景啊教育背景啊那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面\n我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述\n我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.532 --> 00:00.712\n請言主委\n\n00:09.239 --> 00:30.233\n陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及執放遷都任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月\n\n00:32.194 --> 00:59.349\n假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?\n\n01:02.655 --> 01:28.501\n現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些君子我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種\n\n01:29.421 --> 01:55.846\n基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的\n\n01:56.946 --> 02:24.351\n相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分\n\n02:25.231 --> 02:44.676\n主委怎麼看現在提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件是自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控看到他的言行反常\n\n02:45.576 --> 02:58.528\n不僅僅每一個人都會跟他一樣所以其他人看到言行反常他就會檢控這是非常好的現象那就是提高警覺人人都是保防員做到這個程度那我想我們內部就可以鞏固\n\n02:59.554 --> 03:15.820\n主委過去你擔任軍人的時候我們進去各個不同的機構他們是認人還是認證主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人依照對\n\n03:28.985 --> 03:29.725\n是有可能啦因為就是熟視嘛\n\n03:51.076 --> 04:09.393\n那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下\n\n04:17.280 --> 04:17.981\n國安情治單位安全許可認證\n\n04:43.897 --> 05:10.642\n當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以這個以法治為主不要用這個以人或者是他的以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的\n\n05:11.977 --> 05:33.087\n最近我們常常在看就是退將復中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發覺到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面\n\n05:34.107 --> 05:57.444\n其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判\n\n05:58.084 --> 06:12.507\n但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠\n\n06:13.755 --> 06:39.173\n大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些能事\n\n06:39.993 --> 06:55.338\n基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力\n\n06:56.118 --> 06:56.218\n陳冠廷\n\n07:18.271 --> 07:43.273\n什麼部分我們可以來講因為土法不可以自信一定是有什麼原因波動著他們讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大對台灣自己的國軍的批判不是批判甚至就是鄙視這麼多那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的不知道這個mindset這個心態或者是這個是怎麼回事你覺得主委有什麼辦法可以來去管\n\n07:43.533 --> 08:01.494\n我跟委員報告,依我的觀察,我的體會,因為近年兩岸情勢關係,所以中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極,包含所有的這些利誘\n\n08:02.415 --> 08:06.558\n謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破\n\n08:29.933 --> 08:50.870\n對一定有情懷就是說哇這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景啊教育背景啊那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面\n\n08:51.935 --> 09:20.861\n我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述\n\n09:21.801 --> 09:23.142\n我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位\n\n09:45.040 --> 09:45.140\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.532,"end":0.712,"text":"請言主委"},{"start":9.239,"end":30.233,"text":"陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及執放遷都任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月"},{"start":32.194,"end":59.349,"text":"假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?"},{"start":62.655,"end":88.501,"text":"現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些君子我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種"},{"start":89.421,"end":115.846,"text":"基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的"},{"start":116.946,"end":144.351,"text":"相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分"},{"start":145.231,"end":164.676,"text":"主委怎麼看現在提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件是自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控看到他的言行反常"},{"start":165.576,"end":178.528,"text":"不僅僅每一個人都會跟他一樣所以其他人看到言行反常他就會檢控這是非常好的現象那就是提高警覺人人都是保防員做到這個程度那我想我們內部就可以鞏固"},{"start":179.554,"end":195.82,"text":"主委過去你擔任軍人的時候我們進去各個不同的機構他們是認人還是認證主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人依照對"},{"start":208.985,"end":209.725,"text":"是有可能啦 因為就是熟視嘛"},{"start":231.076,"end":249.393,"text":"那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下"},{"start":257.28,"end":257.981,"text":"國安情治單位安全許可認證"},{"start":283.897,"end":310.642,"text":"當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以這個以法治為主不要用這個以人或者是他的以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的"},{"start":311.977,"end":333.087,"text":"最近我們常常在看就是退將復中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發覺到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面"},{"start":334.107,"end":357.444,"text":"其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判"},{"start":358.084,"end":372.507,"text":"但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠"},{"start":373.755,"end":399.173,"text":"大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些能事"},{"start":399.993,"end":415.338,"text":"基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力"},{"start":416.118,"end":416.218,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":438.271,"end":463.273,"text":"什麼部分我們可以來講因為土法不可以自信一定是有什麼原因波動著他們讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大對台灣自己的國軍的批判不是批判甚至就是鄙視這麼多那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的不知道這個mindset這個心態或者是這個是怎麼回事你覺得主委有什麼辦法可以來去管"},{"start":463.533,"end":481.494,"text":"我跟委員報告,依我的觀察,我的體會,因為近年兩岸情勢關係,所以中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極,包含所有的這些利誘"},{"start":482.415,"end":486.558,"text":"謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破"},{"start":509.933,"end":530.87,"text":"對一定有情懷就是說哇這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景啊教育背景啊那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面"},{"start":531.935,"end":560.861,"text":"我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述"},{"start":561.801,"end":563.142,"text":"我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位"},{"start":585.04,"end":585.14,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時49分）你好，我們請主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。我們直接到第1頁。主委，這是之前的重大新聞，有一個監委指出，有個曾任空軍保防的幹部涉及職棒簽賭，任職中並沒有接受完整的保防訓練，這個已經退役的幹部在110年1月到松指部假借致贈年節禮品給舊職長官名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域，並夾帶手機。","我想請教一下，有一些不管是任職前、任職中，或者是任職後，可能因為過去跟我們的長官們都熟識了，不單只是這個案件，會不會有一些相關破防的可能性？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極，尤其是現、退役的軍職，我想這些都是他們利用的媒介。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們講這些事情是因為我發覺到，我們現在可能都是用人與人之間的人際關係，他們可能比較不注重安全核可之後的基本安全守則。有時候一些看似我們最忠心、最中區的指揮部，對方可能會利用他過去在軍中，可能是做到非常高官的人，大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心。可是在不起疑心的狀況之下，他還是可能會進入某些管制區域，夾帶手機拍攝一些重要文件，然後再轉交給中國的相關情資單位。","在松指部這個新聞被……算是被查出來之後，我們是有一點擔心，以後這樣會不會變成常態，也就是說不看你安全保證的名牌，直接用你過去的舊識、同袍或長官對部屬，或部屬對長官的關係，這個部分主委怎麼看？"],["嚴主任委員德發：這要提高警覺，尤其是保防警覺，我剛剛跟委員報告了，現在中共對我們的滲透是愈來愈頻繁，所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的，我們很多案件是自察的，也就是由自己內部的人監控的。看到他的言行反常，不見得每一個人都會跟他一樣，其他人看他言行反常就會檢舉、監控，所以很多案……這是非常好的現象，就是提高警覺。人人都是保防員，能做到這個程度，我想我們內部就可以鞏固。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請教一下主委，過去你擔任軍人的時候，進去各個不同的機構是認人還是認證啊？主要還是認證嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我沒有聽清楚，委員是不是可以再說一遍？"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，我再講一次好了，我們進入一些管制區，是認人還是認證？「證」就是你的身分證明。"],["嚴主任委員德發：從證認到人，因為證裡面的相片跟人一定要對嘛！所以……"],["陳委員冠廷：比方說未來像是退役的老長官，他進入一些軍事重鎮的話，會不會因為他過去的威望，甚至就是由這個地方營區的長官把他帶進去，然後就不用檢查得這麼詳細，會不會有這種狀況出現？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是有可能，因為就是熟識嘛！"],["陳委員冠廷：我們是不是盡量可以請主委跟退役的軍官們宣導。"],["嚴主任委員德發：有宣導的必要。"],["陳委員冠廷：儘管是一些非常有聲望的退役將領，我都可以理解，但就算是如此，我們還是要有一個機制……"],["嚴主任委員德發：辨認。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，用來辨認。比方說我們立委進去營區，不僅要證號，還要看一下我們和我們的身分證明是否符合，我想這些還是要經過統一的認證會比較好。因為一直在講，這幾天我從國防部、國安局到外交部，對我們國安情治單位都在講我們安全許可的認證。其實包含我們立法院的身分證明，基本上就是照片跟名字，當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假，所以我們希望未來能用電腦建置更加完善的方式，譬如像刷卡等等，不過還是要以法制為主，不要以人或者是以人為因素為主的安全屏障，我們認為會比較不夠。不過沒有關係，這個是我們希望可以一步一步去改變的。最近我們常常看到退將赴中這件事情，過去臺灣跟中國之間的關係，你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係，或者是兩岸開放探親等等，這個都可以理解。可是我發現到許多的將領，不管是退役的，我看到一些在電視節目上面，他們如果是提出對我國國軍的建言、建議，針對我們的缺陷提出看法，其實美國很多將領從印太司令的上將退役、少將退役，他們也都是針對自己的國防軍備、針對自己的軍種提出各種不同的建議，甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判，但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心，為什麼？因為他們是提出建言之後，提出他們認為的看法跟解方，基本上，我必須說實話，他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠，有些不能講的，在退役之後可能會直接提出他們的看法，過去因為有層層的官僚體制，可能不讓他們講，但是原則上大方向都不變。","我不特別講是哪些媒體，但是我們看到很多在中方資助的、在中國大陸的媒體，我們看到有一些退役人士，基本上講的，原則上就有點走向綏靖，甚至是投降主義，這是有一個很大的差別，一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判；另一個是歌頌敵對方的能力，甚至誇大能力，甚至是侮辱我國自己的國軍。我想請教主委，這個心態上面的變化是什麼？因為可能是同樣一天在退役前跟退役後，他的看法跟想法是完全不同，是不是可以請主委來說明，這是從什麼部分可以來解釋？因為徒法不能以自行，一定是有什麼原因撥動著他們，讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大，對臺灣自己國軍的批判，不是批判喔！甚至是鄙視這麼多；同時過去的將級也都是在統領一些部隊的，不知道這個心態是怎麼回事。主委，你覺得有什麼辦法可以來管控？"],["嚴主任委員德發：依我的觀察、我的體會，因為近年兩岸情勢關係，中共在統戰方面是無所不用其極，包含所有的利誘、統戰，硬一手、軟一手，這些退將也有可能是被統戰的伎倆，一時有一些疑惑。我覺得軍人最重要的核心價值，就是要忠於國家、忠於人民，忠誠度最重要。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委。我不認為完全是利誘而已，一定有某一種情懷，這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來打破？一定有情懷，過去不管是他們的生活背景、教育背景，他們對中國復興的渴望，可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說中共的強跟中國復興是兩條路，中國復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義，我認為絕對不是利誘而已，一定是他們在某種論述上面，對於這些比較年長的將帥有一定的吸引力，你們要破這個論述的方式是什麼？賴總統的中華民國論或許是一個方式，或許只有在軍中、曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述，比方說中華民國在哪裡、黃埔在哪裡，我覺得這是一個不錯的論述，未來陸軍、空軍、海軍也好，你們要用什麼樣的方式，不然就會看到他們常常在其他的節目中，不是提出批判跟建言，而是藐視我國國軍，我是覺得這樣比較可惜，我也很遺憾啦！但是我相信應該有方法可以破這個論述。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我是說主委你們想一下論述，因為以前你也是軍中很有聲望的人。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們當然也要加強宣導。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是宣導，而是一個論述……"],["嚴主任委員德發：論述。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，好不好？你們思考一下，你們可能比較專業、可能比較理解，謝謝喔！"],["嚴主任委員德發：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，主委請回。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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