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00:00:54,206\n瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價\n\n3\n00:00:55,026 --> 00:01:00,348\n在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓那所以我想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資為跨東地區設置\n\n4\n00:01:15,712 --> 00:01:16,432\n委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正我跟委員報告其實早年\n\n5\n00:01:39,537 --> 00:02:08,479\n我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了,把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用巢運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子\n\n6\n00:02:14,384 --> 00:02:30,075\n那可不可以退會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種桶裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢\n\n7\n00:02:31,513 --> 00:02:38,379\n那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嘛依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同那退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%\n\n8\n00:02:57,415 --> 00:03:07,843\n那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢\n\n9\n00:03:27,378 --> 00:03:40,419\n維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受\n\n10\n00:03:41,600 --> 00:04:06,044\n對但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢\n\n11\n00:04:07,244 --> 00:04:10,653\n這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係\n\n12\n00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:17,921\n因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個\n\n13\n00:04:40,151 --> 00:04:44,721\n政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高\n\n14\n00:04:47,884 --> 00:05:15,401\n報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本\n\n15\n00:05:16,815 --> 00:05:31,372\n為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲\n\n16\n00:05:32,293 --> 00:05:49,462\n那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導\n\n17\n00:05:50,262 --> 00:06:16,827\n那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關\n\n18\n00:06:19,508 --> 00:06:19,628\n主委\n\n19\n00:06:38,129 --> 00:06:51,242\n根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑\n\n20\n00:06:58,672 --> 00:07:27,706\n退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢\n\n21\n00:07:28,896 --> 00:07:56,227\n委員好我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列\n\n22\n00:07:58,693 --> 00:07:59,014\n今年不會申請預備金\n\n23\n00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:31,118\n所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列\n\n24\n00:08:32,239 --> 00:08:41,728\n那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的\n\n25\n00:08:50,836 --> 00:09:09,122\n的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n912\t17516\t謝謝主席請言主委有請言主委主委好你知道退股會以安置基金投資持股超過百分之二十的公司有幾間嗎幾間\n31741\t54206\t瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價\n55026\t60348\t在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓那所以我想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資為跨東地區設置\n75712\t76432\t委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正我跟委員報告其實早年\n99537\t128479\t我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了,把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用巢運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子\n134384\t150075\t那可不可以退會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種桶裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢\n151513\t158379\t那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嘛依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同那退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%\n177415\t187843\t那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢\n207378\t220419\t維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受\n221600\t246044\t對 但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以 是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢\n247244\t250653\t這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係\n252639\t257921\t因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個\n280151\t284721\t政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高\n287884\t315401\t報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本\n316815\t331372\t為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲\n332293\t349462\t那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導\n350262\t376827\t那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關\n379508\t379628\t主委\n398129\t411242\t根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑\n418672\t447706\t退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢\n448896\t476227\t委員好 我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列\n478693\t479014\t今年不會申請預備金\n483959\t511118\t所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列\n512239\t521728\t那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的\n530836\t549122\t的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席請言主委有請言主委主委好你知道退股會以安置基金投資持股超過百分之二十的公司有幾間嗎幾間\n瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價\n在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓那所以我想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資為跨東地區設置\n委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正我跟委員報告其實早年\n我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了,把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用巢運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子\n那可不可以退會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種桶裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢\n那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嘛依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同那退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%\n那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢\n維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受\n對 但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以 是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢\n這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係\n因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個\n政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高\n報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本\n為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲\n那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導\n那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關\n主委\n根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑\n退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢\n委員好 我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列\n今年不會申請預備金\n所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列\n那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的\n的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.912 --> 00:17.516\n謝謝主席請言主委有請言主委主委好你知道退股會以安置基金投資持股超過百分之二十的公司有幾間嗎幾間\n\n00:31.741 --> 00:54.206\n瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價\n\n00:55.026 --> 01:00.348\n在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓那所以我想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資為跨東地區設置\n\n01:15.712 --> 01:16.432\n委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正我跟委員報告其實早年\n\n01:39.537 --> 02:08.479\n我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了,把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用巢運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子\n\n02:14.384 --> 02:30.075\n那可不可以退會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種桶裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢\n\n02:31.513 --> 02:38.379\n那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嘛依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同那退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%\n\n02:57.415 --> 03:07.843\n那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢\n\n03:27.378 --> 03:40.419\n維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受\n\n03:41.600 --> 04:06.044\n對但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢\n\n04:07.244 --> 04:10.653\n這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係\n\n04:12.639 --> 04:17.921\n因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個\n\n04:40.151 --> 04:44.721\n政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高\n\n04:47.884 --> 05:15.401\n報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本\n\n05:16.815 --> 05:31.372\n為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲\n\n05:32.293 --> 05:49.462\n那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導\n\n05:50.262 --> 06:16.827\n那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關\n\n06:19.508 --> 06:19.628\n主委\n\n06:38.129 --> 06:51.242\n根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑\n\n06:58.672 --> 07:27.706\n退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢\n\n07:28.896 --> 07:56.227\n委員好我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列\n\n07:58.693 --> 07:59.014\n今年不會申請預備金\n\n08:03.959 --> 08:31.118\n所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列\n\n08:32.239 --> 08:41.728\n那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的\n\n08:50.836 --> 09:09.122\n的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.912,"end":17.516,"text":"謝謝主席請言主委有請言主委主委好你知道退股會以安置基金投資持股超過百分之二十的公司有幾間嗎幾間"},{"start":31.741,"end":54.206,"text":"瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價"},{"start":55.026,"end":60.348,"text":"在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓那所以我想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資為跨東地區設置"},{"start":75.712,"end":76.432,"text":"委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正我跟委員報告其實早年"},{"start":99.537,"end":128.479,"text":"我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了,把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用巢運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子"},{"start":134.384,"end":150.075,"text":"那可不可以退會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種桶裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢"},{"start":151.513,"end":158.379,"text":"那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嘛依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同那退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%"},{"start":177.415,"end":187.843,"text":"那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢"},{"start":207.378,"end":220.419,"text":"維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受"},{"start":221.6,"end":246.044,"text":"對 但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以 是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢"},{"start":247.244,"end":250.653,"text":"這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係"},{"start":252.639,"end":257.921,"text":"因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個"},{"start":280.151,"end":284.721,"text":"政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高"},{"start":287.884,"end":315.401,"text":"報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本"},{"start":316.815,"end":331.372,"text":"為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲"},{"start":332.293,"end":349.462,"text":"那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導"},{"start":350.262,"end":376.827,"text":"那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關"},{"start":379.508,"end":379.628,"text":"主委"},{"start":398.129,"end":411.242,"text":"根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑"},{"start":418.672,"end":447.706,"text":"退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢"},{"start":448.896,"end":476.227,"text":"委員好 我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列"},{"start":478.693,"end":479.014,"text":"今年不會申請預備金"},{"start":483.959,"end":511.118,"text":"所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列"},{"start":512.239,"end":521.728,"text":"那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的"},{"start":530.836,"end":549.122,"text":"的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時11分）謝謝主席，請嚴主委。"],["主席：有請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：召委好。"],["林委員憶君：主委好。你知道退輔會以安置基金投資持股超過20%的公司有幾間嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：瓦斯公司15間。"],["林委員憶君：主委，你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用天然氣的瓦斯，因為大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有電熱水器，目前花蓮縣傳統的瓦斯桶，大部分一桶大概是675元，重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓，常常還要被加價，這樣瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓。所以我想問一下，退輔會所屬轉投資的事業中，擁有15間天然氣的事業公司、持股高達一定的程度，但為何不願意會合其他的相關部會，請你們的轉投資公司為花東地區設置、架設天然氣的管線，讓花東居民都可以享用跟臺灣其他地區相同的生活品質、降低瓦斯費用的負擔，請問過去有沒有研議過這個問題呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：過去有做過，我請我們處長跟你詳細說明。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。我跟委員報告，其實早年我們投資的欣隆公司，他們跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資，事實上已經去佈管了，一佈管就碰到民意非常非常大的抗爭，所以他們退場了，把投資當作認列損失來退場，目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的欣欣天然氣公司，它在宜蘭地區有用槽運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶，目前為止這個樣子。"],["林委員憶君：所以花蓮地區是還沒有嘛！對不對？"],["楊處長長政：對，花東地區都還沒有。"],["林委員憶君：好，可不可以退輔會回去跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性評估，來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用桶裝瓦斯的生活需求，可不可以3個月給一個書面報告評估呢？"],["楊處長長政：好，是，沒問題。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。接下來我要問一下微電腦瓦斯表，主委你知道嗎？現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣用戶，依照每年年限，每年需要更換的數量不同，在退輔會轉投資的15間瓦斯公司裡面，供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用，到現在9月底，平均有59.43%，裝置微電腦瓦斯表不到6成，甚至更低，然後欣嘉與欣屏分別只有裝24%還有25%，根據本席了解，一旦裝了這個，每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用，但瓦斯是屬於公用的事業，硬體的設備成本要這樣讓民眾分擔，會不會讓這個執行不容易呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員，微電腦的瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%，提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了，所以它也是廣受大眾願意接受，而且……"],["林委員憶君：因為這種東西屬於比較安全的，我們現在其實還是沒有很大的增幅，是不是因為民眾的成本增加，所以裝置率會比較低呢？是不是因為這個樣子，所以讓這個政策推動不容易？如果這個政策沒有推動好，是不是會影響到整個公共安全呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：基本費主要跟維修或者換線都有關係。"],["林委員憶君：因為我看一下退輔會轉投資的這15間瓦斯公司，稅後盈餘總共高達41億元，其實比台電還會賺錢。既然你們轉投資有那麼高的盈餘，請退輔會回去研議一下，怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論，讓瓦斯公司可以配合政策，應該優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用，讓大家的裝置率可以大幅變高。"],["楊處長長政：這個部分由我來跟您回答。事實上，雖然推廣率只有百分之六十，還有成長的空間，而微電腦瓦斯的使用上是安全的，因為它有自動遮斷的功能。但是主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率有非常嚴格的規範，不能由我們15家……因為全臺灣有二十幾家瓦斯公司，如果由我們來做這個事情的話，會不敷成本。微電腦表從早期開始設立的時候，一個成本大概2,300塊到2,500塊，而且這個部分是不收費的，兩年前它的成本已經成長到3,500塊了。這部分基本費一直沒有調漲，當初主管機關設計基本費的時候，包含了換表、維修，還有後續表外管的維修、換置等等都算在這個裡面，使用上雖然普及率逐漸提高，但我們還要再加強宣導。有些鄉下地方的老人家可能認為，機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊，比較便宜一點，事實上是有差異性的，這個我們要宣導，機械表的精準率正負可以有百分之三，微電腦表是百分之一，所以這方面使用上還是有差異，但是我們會來持續加強宣導，也會跟主管機關持續溝通，請主管機關繼續精算，基本費到底應該收多少錢才合理。謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。因為我覺得公共安全其實是蠻重要的，所以這個可能要去研議一下，讓大家都可以接受，這樣會比較好。","接下來，我再問一下主委，本席研究預算發現，111年和112年你們編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高，請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：退除給與跟發放的人數有關係，如果人數增加，我們的退除給與就會比較高；人數少，退除給與就會比較少，跟人數有關係。"],["林委員憶君：當時你們是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢？這個是不是動用第一預備金？如果是動用預備金的話，是不是應該檢討相關不合常規的動支方式？有沒有什麼改善的方法、因應的措施？"],["羅處長馬可：委員好，我是退休給付處處長。感謝委員的關切，因為近兩年人數都有增加，我們的預算主要是依照國防部提供的需求，以及我們既定支領退休俸的人數來編列。"],["林委員憶君：今年的狀況是不是有掌握呢？"],["羅處長馬可：今年不會申請預備金。"],["林委員憶君：所以不會超支就對了？"],["羅處長馬可：對。"],["林委員憶君：因為我要提醒的是，按照中央各主管機關編製114年度概算應行注意辦理事項第五點規定，各機關依照法律義務必須編列的重大支出，應該逐項檢討、匡列，重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理。退除役官兵退休給付之人事費，法律義務的支出要核實編列，可以做到嗎？因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休給付的人事費，每年都大概超過700億元而且逐年在增加，這樣對國庫的財務負擔真的是蠻重的，但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休權益與軍職人員退撫基金財務的永續，所以請退輔會要好好掌握官兵離退的情況，而且做好因應措施。因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後還有其眷屬的生活，可以做到嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會跟國防部密切聯繫、密切配合，精算人數，然後悉數編列。謝謝召委。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員不在。","接下來，請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","葉元之","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","王定宇"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00002"}}}