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\"移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 149.992, \"end\": 150.132, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 150.132, \"end\": 150.653, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 150.653, \"end\": 150.833, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"逃\", \"start\": 150.833, \"end\": 150.973, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 150.973, \"end\": 151.173, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 151.173, \"end\": 151.353, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 151.353, \"end\": 151.513, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 151.513, \"end\": 152.414, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 152.414, \"end\": 152.554, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 152.554, \"end\": 152.754, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 152.754, \"end\": 154.115, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, 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\"了\", \"start\": 164.041, \"end\": 164.161, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 164.161, \"end\": 164.342, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 164.342, \"end\": 164.622, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 164.622, \"end\": 164.782, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 164.782, \"end\": 165.002, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 165.002, \"end\": 165.162, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 165.162, \"end\": 166.203, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 166.203, \"end\": 166.423, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 166.423, \"end\": 166.623, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 166.623, \"end\": 167.243, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 167.243, \"end\": 167.363, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 167.363, \"end\": 167.744, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 167.744, \"end\": 168.084, \"score\": 0.91}, 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174.109, \"end\": 174.309, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 174.309, \"end\": 174.669, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 174.669, \"end\": 175.11, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 175.11, \"end\": 175.21, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 175.21, \"end\": 175.29, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 175.29, \"end\": 175.49, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 175.49, \"end\": 175.63, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 175.63, \"end\": 175.75, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 175.75, \"end\": 175.87, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 175.87, \"end\": 176.05, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 176.05, \"end\": 176.331, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 176.331, \"end\": 176.891, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 176.891, \"end\": 177.031, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"許\", 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{\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 183.257, \"end\": 183.357, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 183.357, \"end\": 183.557, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 183.557, \"end\": 183.718, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 183.718, \"end\": 183.918, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 183.918, \"end\": 184.058, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 184.058, \"end\": 184.338, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 184.338, \"end\": 184.839, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 184.839, \"end\": 185.339, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"腳\"}, {\"word\": \"鐐\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 185.339, \"end\": 185.619, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 185.619, \"end\": 185.799, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 185.799, \"end\": 185.98, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 185.98, \"end\": 186.22, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 186.22, \"end\": 186.4, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"派\", \"start\": 186.4, \"end\": 186.54, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 186.54, \"end\": 186.7, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 186.7, \"end\": 187.061, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 187.061, \"end\": 187.241, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 187.241, \"end\": 187.501, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 187.501, \"end\": 188.642, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 188.642, \"end\": 188.782, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 188.782, \"end\": 189.183, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 189.183, \"end\": 189.583, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 189.583, \"end\": 189.683, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 189.683, \"end\": 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\"要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 948.052, \"end\": 948.232, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 948.232, \"end\": 948.412, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 948.412, \"end\": 948.492, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 948.492, \"end\": 948.552, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 948.552, \"end\": 949.033, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 949.033, \"end\": 949.193, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 949.193, \"end\": 949.373, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 949.373, \"end\": 950.294, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 950.294, \"end\": 950.454, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 950.454, \"end\": 950.694, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 950.694, \"end\": 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\"太\", \"start\": 970.032, \"end\": 970.192, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 970.192, \"end\": 970.453, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 970.453, \"end\": 971.193, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 971.193, \"end\": 971.634, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 971.634, \"end\": 971.774, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 971.774, \"end\": 971.934, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 971.934, \"end\": 972.034, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 972.034, \"end\": 972.455, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 972.455, \"end\": 973.015, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 973.015, \"end\": 973.075, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 973.075, \"end\": 973.095, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 974.116, \"end\": 975.197, \"text\": \"移工及青少年淪為詐騙\", 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\"九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 1018.376, \"end\": 1018.616, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 1018.616, \"end\": 1018.796, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1018.796, \"end\": 1018.937, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 1018.937, \"end\": 1019.377, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1019.377, \"end\": 1019.497, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 1019.497, \"end\": 1019.697, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 1019.697, \"end\": 1019.937, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1019.937, \"end\": 1020.118, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 1020.118, \"end\": 1020.278, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1020.278, \"end\": 1020.418, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1020.418, \"end\": 1020.598, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", 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00:01:32,951\n因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民\n\n5\n00:01:33,752 --> 00:02:00,615\n像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相嘛那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下\n\n6\n00:02:02,335 --> 00:02:29,192\n您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有\n\n7\n00:02:29,992 --> 00:02:50,846\n移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難\n\n8\n00:02:51,947 --> 00:03:14,387\n他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐坐車出去\n\n9\n00:03:15,268 --> 00:03:31,184\n那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個可能還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛\n\n10\n00:03:31,644 --> 00:03:57,457\n所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之語嗎101之一也沒有要關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之語所以現行我國羈押的\n\n11\n00:03:58,217 --> 00:04:06,245\n要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個\n\n12\n00:04:07,574 --> 00:04:35,933\n我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧如果是羈押中的案件的話刑警法官都會優先處理\n\n13\n00:04:36,793 --> 00:04:48,405\n對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題\n\n14\n00:04:56,601 --> 00:05:22,013\n如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧那收容到\n\n15\n00:05:22,933 --> 00:05:35,513\n最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到告院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦\n\n16\n00:05:36,858 --> 00:05:56,411\n這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最\n\n17\n00:05:57,753 --> 00:06:12,474\n非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來解押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的\n\n18\n00:06:12,774 --> 00:06:39,491\n是那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一\n\n19\n00:06:41,573 --> 00:06:58,953\n那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解\n\n20\n00:07:01,115 --> 00:07:13,485\n目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考\n\n21\n00:07:15,458 --> 00:07:41,886\n高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷\n\n22\n00:07:43,186 --> 00:07:54,638\n撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告\n\n23\n00:07:55,926 --> 00:08:03,469\n最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到\n\n24\n00:08:23,178 --> 00:08:33,426\n二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯\n\n25\n00:08:34,969 --> 00:08:58,874\n是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間\n\n26\n00:09:01,649 --> 00:09:23,574\n這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘\n\n27\n00:09:25,914 --> 00:09:48,923\n一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是\n\n28\n00:09:51,342 --> 00:10:06,133\n我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由\n\n29\n00:10:07,834 --> 00:10:26,701\n因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定\n\n30\n00:10:29,122 --> 00:10:48,933\n他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑\n\n31\n00:10:57,970 --> 00:11:22,948\n其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事\n\n32\n00:11:27,952 --> 00:11:46,363\n不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決\n\n33\n00:11:47,344 --> 00:12:03,976\n部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前\n\n34\n00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:31,153\n羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了\n\n35\n00:12:32,074 --> 00:12:49,334\n但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛\n\n36\n00:12:51,176 --> 00:13:11,908\n但是現在變成這樣了變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到\n\n37\n00:13:17,992 --> 00:13:24,711\n我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠\n\n38\n00:13:26,454 --> 00:13:55,007\n禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說\n\n39\n00:13:56,087 --> 00:14:24,670\n不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會\n\n40\n00:14:25,931 --> 00:14:49,942\n出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是\n\n41\n00:14:52,224 --> 00:15:08,405\n實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊\n\n42\n00:15:09,586 --> 00:15:31,644\n那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦\n\n43\n00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:36,852\n我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個\n\n44\n00:15:48,052 --> 00:16:13,095\n要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個\n\n45\n00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:15,197\n移工及青少年淪為詐騙\n\n46\n00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:46,919\n我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態\n\n47\n00:16:58,376 --> 00:17:17,574\n九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎\n\n48\n00:17:18,895 --> 00:17:43,286\n就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個\n\n49\n00:17:45,787 --> 00:18:14,627\n政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到\n\n50\n00:18:15,627 --> 00:18:33,773\n那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來\n\n51\n00:18:34,873 --> 00:18:53,928\n然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位\n\n52\n00:18:54,788 --> 00:19:10,194\n不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內\n\n53\n00:19:11,314 --> 00:19:34,714\n的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過\n\n54\n00:19:35,595 --> 00:19:56,458\n所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後\n\n55\n00:19:57,574 --> 00:20:21,663\n他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個\n\n56\n00:20:24,816 --> 00:20:45,055\n明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億\n\n57\n00:20:49,179 --> 00:21:17,678\n就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為\n\n58\n00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,028\n否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好謝謝各位謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8069\t16376\t我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局王副局長有請王副局長\n31397\t57092\t待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為\n60894\t71798\t因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說\n73956\t92951\t因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民\n93752\t120615\t像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相嘛那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下\n122335\t149192\t您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有\n149992\t170846\t移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難\n171947\t194387\t他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐坐車出去\n195268\t211184\t那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個可能還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛\n211644\t237457\t所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之語嗎101之一也沒有要關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之語所以現行我國羈押的\n238217\t246245\t要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個\n247574\t275933\t我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧如果是羈押中的案件的話刑警法官都會優先處理\n276793\t288405\t對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題\n296601\t322013\t如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧那收容到\n322933\t335513\t最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到告院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦\n336858\t356411\t這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最\n357753\t372474\t非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來解押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的\n372774\t399491\t是 那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一\n401573\t418953\t那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解\n421115\t433485\t目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考\n435458\t461886\t高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷\n463186\t474638\t撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告\n475926\t483469\t最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到\n503178\t513426\t二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯\n514969\t538874\t是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間\n541649\t563574\t這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘\n565914\t588923\t一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是\n591342\t606133\t我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由\n607834\t626701\t因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定\n629122\t648933\t他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑\n657970\t682948\t其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事\n687952\t706363\t不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決\n707344\t723976\t部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前\n724836\t751153\t羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了\n752074\t769334\t但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛\n771176\t791908\t但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到\n797992\t804711\t我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠\n806454\t835007\t禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說\n836087\t864670\t不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會\n865931\t889942\t出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是\n892224\t908405\t實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊\n909586\t931644\t那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦\n934389\t936852\t我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個\n948052\t973095\t要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個\n974116\t975197\t移工及青少年淪為詐騙\n1004476\t1006919\t我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態\n1018376\t1037574\t九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎\n1038895\t1063286\t就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個\n1065787\t1094627\t政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到\n1095627\t1113773\t那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來\n1114873\t1133928\t然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位\n1134788\t1150194\t不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內\n1151314\t1174714\t的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過\n1175595\t1196458\t所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後\n1197574\t1221663\t他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個\n1224816\t1245055\t明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億\n1249179\t1277678\t就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為\n1278640\t1281028\t否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝\n","txt":"我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局王副局長有請王副局長\n待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為\n因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說\n因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民\n像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相嘛那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下\n您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有\n移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難\n他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐坐車出去\n那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個可能還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛\n所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之語嗎101之一也沒有要關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之語所以現行我國羈押的\n要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個\n我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧如果是羈押中的案件的話刑警法官都會優先處理\n對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題\n如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧那收容到\n最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到告院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦\n這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最\n非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來解押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的\n是 那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一\n那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解\n目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考\n高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷\n撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告\n最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到\n二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯\n是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間\n這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘\n一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是\n我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由\n因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定\n他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑\n其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事\n不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決\n部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前\n羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了\n但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛\n但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到\n我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠\n禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說\n不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會\n出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是\n實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊\n那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦\n我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個\n要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個\n移工及青少年淪為詐騙\n我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態\n九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎\n就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個\n政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到\n那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來\n然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位\n不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內\n的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過\n所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後\n他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個\n明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億\n就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為\n否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.069 --> 00:16.376\n我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局王副局長有請王副局長\n\n00:31.397 --> 00:57.092\n待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為\n\n01:00.894 --> 01:11.798\n因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說\n\n01:13.956 --> 01:32.951\n因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民\n\n01:33.752 --> 02:00.615\n像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相嘛那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下\n\n02:02.335 --> 02:29.192\n您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有\n\n02:29.992 --> 02:50.846\n移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難\n\n02:51.947 --> 03:14.387\n他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐坐車出去\n\n03:15.268 --> 03:31.184\n那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個可能還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛\n\n03:31.644 --> 03:57.457\n所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之語嗎101之一也沒有要關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之語所以現行我國羈押的\n\n03:58.217 --> 04:06.245\n要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個\n\n04:07.574 --> 04:35.933\n我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧如果是羈押中的案件的話刑警法官都會優先處理\n\n04:36.793 --> 04:48.405\n對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題\n\n04:56.601 --> 05:22.013\n如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧那收容到\n\n05:22.933 --> 05:35.513\n最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到告院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦\n\n05:36.858 --> 05:56.411\n這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最\n\n05:57.753 --> 06:12.474\n非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來解押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的\n\n06:12.774 --> 06:39.491\n是那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一\n\n06:41.573 --> 06:58.953\n那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解\n\n07:01.115 --> 07:13.485\n目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考\n\n07:15.458 --> 07:41.886\n高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷\n\n07:43.186 --> 07:54.638\n撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告\n\n07:55.926 --> 08:03.469\n最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到\n\n08:23.178 --> 08:33.426\n二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯\n\n08:34.969 --> 08:58.874\n是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間\n\n09:01.649 --> 09:23.574\n這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘\n\n09:25.914 --> 09:48.923\n一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是\n\n09:51.342 --> 10:06.133\n我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由\n\n10:07.834 --> 10:26.701\n因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定\n\n10:29.122 --> 10:48.933\n他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑\n\n10:57.970 --> 11:22.948\n其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事\n\n11:27.952 --> 11:46.363\n不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決\n\n11:47.344 --> 12:03.976\n部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前\n\n12:04.836 --> 12:31.153\n羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了\n\n12:32.074 --> 12:49.334\n但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛\n\n12:51.176 --> 13:11.908\n但是現在變成這樣了變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到\n\n13:17.992 --> 13:24.711\n我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠\n\n13:26.454 --> 13:55.007\n禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說\n\n13:56.087 --> 14:24.670\n不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會\n\n14:25.931 --> 14:49.942\n出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是\n\n14:52.224 --> 15:08.405\n實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊\n\n15:09.586 --> 15:31.644\n那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦\n\n15:34.389 --> 15:36.852\n我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個\n\n15:48.052 --> 16:13.095\n要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個\n\n16:14.116 --> 16:15.197\n移工及青少年淪為詐騙\n\n16:44.476 --> 16:46.919\n我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態\n\n16:58.376 --> 17:17.574\n九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎\n\n17:18.895 --> 17:43.286\n就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個\n\n17:45.787 --> 18:14.627\n政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到\n\n18:15.627 --> 18:33.773\n那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來\n\n18:34.873 --> 18:53.928\n然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位\n\n18:54.788 --> 19:10.194\n不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內\n\n19:11.314 --> 19:34.714\n的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過\n\n19:35.595 --> 19:56.458\n所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後\n\n19:57.574 --> 20:21.663\n他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個\n\n20:24.816 --> 20:45.055\n明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億\n\n20:49.179 --> 21:17.678\n就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為\n\n21:18.640 --> 21:21.028\n否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好謝謝各位謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.069,"end":16.376,"text":"我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局王副局長有請王副局長"},{"start":31.397,"end":57.092,"text":"待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為"},{"start":60.894,"end":71.798,"text":"因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說"},{"start":73.956,"end":92.951,"text":"因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民"},{"start":93.752,"end":120.615,"text":"像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相嘛那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下"},{"start":122.335,"end":149.192,"text":"您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有"},{"start":149.992,"end":170.846,"text":"移民證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難"},{"start":171.947,"end":194.387,"text":"他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐坐車出去"},{"start":195.268,"end":211.184,"text":"那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個可能還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛"},{"start":211.644,"end":237.457,"text":"所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之語嗎101之一也沒有要關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之語所以現行我國羈押的"},{"start":238.217,"end":246.245,"text":"要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個"},{"start":247.574,"end":275.933,"text":"我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧如果是羈押中的案件的話刑警法官都會優先處理"},{"start":276.793,"end":288.405,"text":"對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題"},{"start":296.601,"end":322.013,"text":"如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧那收容到"},{"start":322.933,"end":335.513,"text":"最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到告院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦"},{"start":336.858,"end":356.411,"text":"這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最"},{"start":357.753,"end":372.474,"text":"非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來解押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的"},{"start":372.774,"end":399.491,"text":"是 那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一"},{"start":401.573,"end":418.953,"text":"那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解"},{"start":421.115,"end":433.485,"text":"目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考"},{"start":435.458,"end":461.886,"text":"高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷"},{"start":463.186,"end":474.638,"text":"撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告"},{"start":475.926,"end":483.469,"text":"最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到"},{"start":503.178,"end":513.426,"text":"二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯"},{"start":514.969,"end":538.874,"text":"是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間"},{"start":541.649,"end":563.574,"text":"這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘"},{"start":565.914,"end":588.923,"text":"一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是"},{"start":591.342,"end":606.133,"text":"我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由"},{"start":607.834,"end":626.701,"text":"因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定"},{"start":629.122,"end":648.933,"text":"他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑"},{"start":657.97,"end":682.948,"text":"其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事"},{"start":687.952,"end":706.363,"text":"不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決"},{"start":707.344,"end":723.976,"text":"部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前"},{"start":724.836,"end":751.153,"text":"羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了"},{"start":752.074,"end":769.334,"text":"但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛"},{"start":771.176,"end":791.908,"text":"但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到"},{"start":797.992,"end":804.711,"text":"我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠"},{"start":806.454,"end":835.007,"text":"禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說"},{"start":836.087,"end":864.67,"text":"不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會"},{"start":865.931,"end":889.942,"text":"出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是"},{"start":892.224,"end":908.405,"text":"實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊"},{"start":909.586,"end":931.644,"text":"那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦"},{"start":934.389,"end":936.852,"text":"我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個"},{"start":948.052,"end":973.095,"text":"要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個"},{"start":974.116,"end":975.197,"text":"移工及青少年淪為詐騙"},{"start":1004.476,"end":1006.919,"text":"我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態"},{"start":1018.376,"end":1037.574,"text":"九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎"},{"start":1038.895,"end":1063.286,"text":"就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個"},{"start":1065.787,"end":1094.627,"text":"政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到"},{"start":1095.627,"end":1113.773,"text":"那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來"},{"start":1114.873,"end":1133.928,"text":"然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位"},{"start":1134.788,"end":1150.194,"text":"不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內"},{"start":1151.314,"end":1174.714,"text":"的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過"},{"start":1175.595,"end":1196.458,"text":"所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後"},{"start":1197.574,"end":1221.663,"text":"他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個"},{"start":1224.816,"end":1245.055,"text":"明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億"},{"start":1249.179,"end":1277.678,"text":"就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為"},{"start":1278.64,"end":1281.028,"text":"否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時35分）我們麻煩李廳長還有鄭部長、張署長。"],["主席：李廳長、鄭部長、張署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有金管會證期局黃副局長。"],["主席：有請黃副局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：我等一下有一些問題，還是要麻煩像數發部或NCC，你們不用上來，但是稍微也要瞭解一下我的問題，還有馬次長也要麻煩您，但先不用上臺。","前面我可能先提幾個問題，待會我會再切入今天的主題，我先請教李廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：李廳長，剛剛黃國昌委員以及謝龍介委員都有一直提到死刑的部分嘛，我之前有提出了幾個問題，也是一直在呼籲，而且我已經呼籲兩個月了，因為您是刑庭法官出身嘛，我相信一定非常清楚整個狀況。但因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師側翼，甚至以前還當過法官，他出來講，對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點，或我們在講東、他在講西，但是他講的那些東西會被很多媒體拿去誤導人民。像有人就一直講，羈押期間可以重新起算，這大法官講……問題是這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中，他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題，或者是什麼原因我不知道，但是誤導人民是不對的，我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員，都應該有義務要告訴人民真相嘛！因為這幾個問題我已經一再公開，也不會是突襲你們，我就再請教一下，您是刑庭法官出身的，一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年、二十幾年，而且都已經是判決確定，查完的案子，那有什麼串證的問題嗎？第二個，如果他今天說你讓我出去，我也同意被限制出境，我也同意戴電子腳鐐，你要我每天去派出所報到，甚至他在裡面關了20年，他根本沒有錢逃亡啊！請問一下，他湮滅證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎？請問前刑庭法官。"],["李廳長釱任：我們就不講個案啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我不談個案。"],["李廳長釱任：如果以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話，關了20、30年之後，案件已經確定了，你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是，那逃亡呢？"],["李廳長釱任：至於逃亡部分，可能就是人性的問題啊，如果我犯的是個重罪，也許我沒有錢，但沒有錢並不代表我不會逃亡。"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，廳長，我剛剛有說，他說我願意被限制出境，我願意戴電子腳鐐，我願意每天到派出所簽到3次，這個都是實務常見的嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去，沒有錢「坐桶子」出去，請問一下他有重大逃亡可能性嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這個可能還是要個案的判斷，因為他跟其他家庭的連結，或是其他……都有可能。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，我可以接受你這個答案，但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛，當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候，變成被告身分，唯一能夠關他的就是羈押，就只有這個方式，但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理，完全不符合第一百零一條，你說有反覆實施之虞嗎？第一百零一條之一，也沒有，他被關在裡面20年，你怎麼證明他有反覆實施之虞？所以現行我國羈押的要件，這37位有可能，我不說全部好了，就有可能很多人根本不符合，所以這個麻煩司法院注意。","第二個，我們羈押，一個審級就是15個月，很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月，請問廳長有沒有可能？"],["李廳長釱任：委員所講的這部分的確是有可能，但是我們也在努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我懂。"],["李廳長釱任：有關於羈押精神鑑定……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們就是冀望法官能夠積極努力，但是實務上面一個審級審理超過15個月的比比皆是，我想刑庭法官不可能否認這個事實對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：如果是羈押中的案件的話，刑庭法官都會優先處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我懂，但是有可能會審理超過15個月，這個是有可能的，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：就通案來講，我們儘量不要讓它超過15個月。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，但是是有可能嘛！我們只能儘量不要，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：我們不能排除，不能排除。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這邊就是問題了。再請教廳長一個問題，如果檢察總長非常上訴成功，這些人會從收容人的身分轉換為被告，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，現在我們能夠關他們，是叫做收容，執行槍決前的收容，所以我們可以關著他，那當他變回普通法院審理的被告時，必須羈押才有可能把他關起來，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：收容到最高法院認為非常上訴有理由，讓他們變成被告的身分，到高院法官裁定羈押，這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期，他如果說：「我要回家。」怎麼辦？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，據我所了解，在民國94年的時候，有一個台非字124號，當時是憲法第582號解釋所引起的原因事實，因而提起的非常上訴，當時非常上訴的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審判決一併撤銷掉，當時也有做身分的轉換，把它轉換成在押的被告，由二審來接押，這是民國94年當時的處理情形，這是有前例的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，所以這個問題就是，我今天是點出所有的專業問題，我相信剛剛我提到了三個都是專業的問題，我今天提出來是非常希望，而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道，而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽，今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題，你們都可以打臉我，沒有問題。","您剛剛講的，就是有前例可以依循嘛，將來如果檢察總長有提出非常上訴而且成功的話，是不是你們就必須依照……你說曾經有，我還沒有看到這個資料，如果有，那一定要照這樣做，如果沒有，那就會發生我剛剛說的，會有幾個小時的空窗，廳長您認同吧？"],["李廳長釱任：我了解。據我所了解，目前最高法院檢察署還有高院原審級這邊也有在做一些適當的了解、模擬跟研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以如果……"],["李廳長釱任：我們也提供了相關的資料，再提供94年的相關例子給他們參考。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天他要回到高院審理的話，那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不是、不是，一定是二審法官裁定羈押，是假設啦，假設要羈押的時候……"],["吳委員宗憲：對啊，那你剛剛說的這個呢？"],["李廳長釱任：當時裁定之後，由二審法官來接押，但是在三審的時候，他的身分已經做了轉換，我們從判決書上面所記載的來看，它是寫在押被告，事實上他是一個判決確定執行中的被告，但是在三審判決已經把他改了，因為撤銷確定判決之後，他身分已經做了轉換，他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人，轉換成在押被告，所謂程序的復活……"],["吳委員宗憲：那是誰諭知在押被告？誰諭知他為在押被告？"],["李廳長釱任：在最高法院當時就諭知……"],["吳委員宗憲：那誰諭知羈押？"],["李廳長釱任：二審諭知羈押，他身分回到在押被告的身分，這身分的轉換……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以最高法院的法官同時認為非常上訴有理由，同一個時間，瞬間高院法官裁定羈押，是這樣嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不是、不是，他會把卷證交給二審法院……"],["吳委員宗憲：那我的問題就在這裡了，最高法院認為他身分回歸到被告，到二審的法官裁定羈押，如果有5分鐘的空檔，他跑出去，誰有理由攔他？5分鐘就好。"],["李廳長釱任：他當時是在監執行的人犯，當時在監執行，轉換變成在押的身分之後，他還沒釋放之前，二審法院會……"],["吳委員宗憲：廳長，我懂你的意思了，但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情，您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯……"],["李廳長釱任：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：他有核發過指揮書，有送監執行，但是在本案叫做執行槍決前的收容，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：執行槍決前收容的收容人變成被告，那這個中間的時間差怎麼辦？沒關係，如果你們要以那一件為基礎，思考怎麼樣研擬這個新的作法，沒問題，但我是政治人物，我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡，再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦。","我剛剛說的，如果一個變換身分的決定權是最高法院法官，一個是否裁定羈押的是高院法官，兩個會不會有幾分鐘的落差？1分鐘好不好？那1分鐘的落差，被告要跑就可以跑，任何人不能攔他。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們大概有研議過，二審法院在釋放之前就可以通知被告到庭，如果他不到庭，可能要用逕行拘提的方式來做處理，所以大概會有……"],["吳委員宗憲：你通知要送達啊！你要合法送達嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：到監所去送達。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是……"],["李廳長釱任：我知道委員的意思，這部分我們會依循前例……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，最高法院認為案件已經撤銷，他就不是收容身分嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是收容身分，他就說：「你門打開，我要回家。」那你不能限制他啊！我們沒有法定拘束他的自由。我再跟廳長說，因為廳長您是刑庭法官，你一定懂我在講什麼，那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了，因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼，所以這三個問題再麻煩您。","我再請教部長，現在還有幾個問題，因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年規定，他們可能之前已經羈押過很長一段時間了，所以他們應該可以折抵滿久的，假設他們將來被判無期徒刑的話，可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊，那他們現在關在裡面，那些死刑犯基本上表現都很良好，這樣的話，是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑，其實是可以折抵嘛，羈押是……"],["吳委員宗憲：對、對，依法可以折抵。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為他可以折抵，這部分如果還沒有修法的話，我們當然可以從嚴審核。另外，我們目前也在修法，我們把重大的、特殊的、暴力的犯罪，包括故意殺人……"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，部長，這一塊我知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是排除第七十七條，羈押折抵的適用……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我必須跟你講一件事，不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得，所以今天要修一個法，要求他溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定，我想也許有困難，除非法務部、司法院提出一個專法針對這37位死刑犯，這是我想破頭腦想到的，大概就是用專法去解決。","部長，我從頭到尾都不跟你們談政治，我只談法律的專業，有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防，我們不甩他，我們就談法律。","今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前羈押的期間，他已經快要可以申請假釋了，只要快要可以申請假釋，那將來假釋的評斷標準當然可以從嚴審核，但他們就有可能假釋出獄，這機率就跑出來了，我今天要點出的是這個問題。","部長，還有另外一個問題，將來你們可能會面對到，關於收容這個行為，以前是槍決前所以收容他，所以沒有折抵刑期這個問題，反正都要槍斃了，但是未來這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話，一定會有很多人權團體出來說，收容期間也是限制他自由，為什麼不能折抵刑期？它的形式跟羈押會很類似，因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛，但是現在變成這樣了，收容會變成一個新問題，所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下，如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體出來跟大家吵收容期間……有人收容十幾年了，要記錄刑期的話，這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的計算，這是法務部將來一定會面對到的。","我跟兩位報告，其實我剛提到了這五個點，全部是專業論述的點，再麻煩你們能夠釐清，如果不釐清的話，這五個點都是將來這些人可能回到社會的可能性，部長你有什麼……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不認為會回到社會啦……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我跟你談法律，你跟我談不可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是刑事通常救濟的程序，這個有別嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你今天講的話，全國的檢察官、法官都在看，你是我檢察官的大前輩、大學長，我現在依法跟你論法，然後你跟我說不可能，如果這樣子的話……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為剛才委員有提到人權團體，我想這是在執行前的收容，目前的法律……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，目前法律沒有記錄。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不能折抵嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：憲判字8號也是修監獄行刑法，有關於受刑人……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我一直說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望把不能折抵的這個做一個明確……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗，所以才會出了一個憲判字，創造的問題比解決的問題多出很多啦，就是這樣！我光是從實務稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的要馬上解決，而且每一個都是法律問題，每一個都是可以讓法律系學生或老師好好討論的問題。部長，我知道你也有你的難處，你不方便講一些話，但我在這邊就必須講，這些就是司法實務上面的專業問題，必須要解決，否則即使是只有5分鐘落差的空窗期，被告都可以要求我現在要離開，他跑給你追；或是像我們剛剛講的，根本就不符合我國現行法第一百零一條或第一百零一條之一的羈押要件，那你怎麼押他？法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押？這都是問題。那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚，或是我是那些死刑犯的律師，我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了，我可以引出一大堆的判決、判例來告訴你，為什麼這個東西不能羈押，以前的法官都不押，憑什麼你現在認為此人有逃亡之虞，所以，這都是問題啦！","因為用掉太多時間，最後問題我都不問了，我就把我希望提的幾件事跟大家講一下。首先麻煩警政署署長要注意一下，最近小額詐騙非常多，大多是利用收包裹的方式，就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊，然後你繳給超商之後錢就拿不回來，最近這類的案子非常多，非常多人都有來跟我講，很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了，他不會去報案，因為太麻煩了，所以，署長，要麻煩宣導一下這個部分，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好的、好的，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後另外就是說，因為這些超商代收的貨款，他們通常都是跟資訊科技公司合作，你們去調資料，兩、三個禮拜公司都還沒有回復，以現在狀況，如果超商撥款給那個業者的話，錢馬上就被轉走了，如果依照現在索資的時間要這麼長，民眾的錢追不回來，跟署長報告一件事情……"],["張署長榮興：這個我要跟委員報告一下，你如果知道這是一個詐騙，這個錢就會被凍起來，超商就不會匯去那邊，你如果有報案……"],["吳委員宗憲：是，署長，我跟您報告一件事，他就是利用大家這個心態，900、1,000、1,200，他真的不會去報案，因為報案他還要去做筆錄，將來可能還要被傳喚出庭，所以大部分的人都是算了。一堆人跟我談過這個事，我問了沒有人報過案，所以這會是一個黑數，所以我想至於面對黑數，我們的作法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我會加強宣導。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是如果不明包裹你要去收，像我也收過，他是寄我弟弟的名字，我去幫我弟弟代收……"],["張署長榮興：應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，類似像這樣。"],["張署長榮興：先做這樣的確認，就是宣導這個部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，再麻煩你們能夠宣導，因為會有很多這種黑數，大家覺得才一千多塊，不想浪費時間去報案。"],["張署長榮興：好的，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是證期局，我有一個建議，我一起講好了，因為時間的關係。因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是虛擬貨幣，虛擬貨幣目前有來聲明、申報的只有26家業者，但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣交易都是透過國外的交易所，你們完全管不到，這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦，好不好？"],["黃副局長厚銘：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不然我們等於完全沒有管。我在這邊就直接講，下禮拜二我跟張智倫及林沛祥，我們會開一個打詐的記者會，我們會想看看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來，因為民眾不在乎被告判多久，他只想知道錢要不要得回來。然後，我們也希望金管會能夠在打詐專法……你們是負責金融聯防機制的，那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢。","上次金管會主委有跟我說，報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位可能不夠盡責，或今天的報告也有，那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責，我們要去追一下嘛。然後依法遵循聲明的26家，這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量，國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內的業者，請瞭解一下。","還有就是指揮中心，指揮中心說去年6月到今年10月要回了24億被詐騙的金額，但是你們要給我一個資料，就是這24億被告都付完了嗎？因為據我所知，以及我以前在實務界的經驗，非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你，但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過，所以這24億是真的都付完了嗎？或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來沒有繼續支付，被害人還是被騙，等於是被騙第二次，而且這次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人，因為當事人以為有政府的保證，被告就會還他錢，結果和解書簽了以後，他還兩期之後全部拿不回來，那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的？所以這部分到底拿回多少錢，也必須給我一個報告，而不是跟我說要回來24億，因為這是騙人的，這絕對是！我跟你講，我在實務界待過，不要拿這個來騙我。","最後我要提一個明年預算的部分，因為我們這會期是預算會期，預算的部分，我們人民去年被騙了88億，然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億，所以我希望是有所作為，不然88加73等於國人被騙了161億，就變成你編的這些預算，國人被第二次騙錢。之前網路有很多人在笑，因為看到提73億的預算，然後有人留言「哈哈又被騙了73億」，所以不要讓人民有這個想法。尤其是警政署，因為你們的打詐花了很多錢，6.6億的分機系統，還有5億的硬體設備，當然我知道這是因應修法的關係，但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為，否則就像我剛剛說的，原來我們被騙了161億，不是88億。好，謝謝各位，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝，麻煩下一位請鍾佳濱委員。那因為我們剛……不好意思、不好意思，是徐巧芯委員。我們剛剛有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席累了嗎？要不要喝蠻牛？"],["主席：沒事、沒事，剛剛講完。我們剛剛有宣告，就是在鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘，很早就已經講了。還是你們兩個要對調？"],["吳委員思瑤：不用、不用、不用。"],["主席：OK，好，謝謝。請徐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}}