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46.75, \"end\": 46.87, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 46.87, \"end\": 47.01, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 47.01, \"end\": 47.17, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 47.17, \"end\": 47.19, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 47.87, \"end\": 72.073, \"text\": \"那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 47.87, \"end\": 47.99, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 47.99, \"end\": 48.07, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 48.07, \"end\": 48.15, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 48.15, \"end\": 48.23, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 48.23, \"end\": 48.691, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 48.691, \"end\": 49.231, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 49.231, \"end\": 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\"我\", \"start\": 71.232, \"end\": 71.312, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 71.312, \"end\": 71.472, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 71.472, \"end\": 71.853, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 71.853, \"end\": 71.953, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 71.953, \"end\": 72.053, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 72.053, \"end\": 72.073, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}]}, {\"start\": 73.393, \"end\": 88.636, \"text\": \"那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 73.393, \"end\": 73.774, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 73.774, \"end\": 73.894, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 73.894, \"end\": 73.994, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 73.994, \"end\": 74.435, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.435, 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922.846, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 922.846, \"end\": 922.966, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 922.966, \"end\": 923.087, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 923.087, \"end\": 923.267, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 923.267, \"end\": 923.287, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,198 --> 00:00:26,124\n主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長\n\n2\n00:00:26,924 --> 00:00:47,190\n那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長\n\n3\n00:00:47,870 --> 00:01:12,073\n那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢\n\n4\n00:01:13,393 --> 00:01:28,636\n那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題\n\n5\n00:01:29,847 --> 00:01:47,182\n馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意\n\n6\n00:01:47,702 --> 00:02:15,602\n那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以\n\n7\n00:02:16,428 --> 00:02:37,757\n跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊\n\n8\n00:02:39,358 --> 00:03:06,647\n要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個\n\n9\n00:03:08,058 --> 00:03:30,436\n市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長\n\n10\n00:03:31,497 --> 00:03:59,433\n行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關有\n\n11\n00:04:00,794 --> 00:04:24,868\n後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?\n\n12\n00:04:26,108 --> 00:04:51,566\n我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊\n\n13\n00:04:55,748 --> 00:05:08,175\n你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對\n\n14\n00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:33,045\n現在呢我要向你們你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合外勤集合沒辦法用AI沒辦法用人工智慧取代的你同意嗎報告委員我們同意我們回去會檢討的OK了謝謝署長請回我們請看下一頁好現在我們來講詐騙\n\n15\n00:05:38,953 --> 00:06:07,940\n不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁\n\n16\n00:06:08,962 --> 00:06:25,155\n其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易\n\n17\n00:06:26,092 --> 00:06:49,900\n被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎\n\n18\n00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:13,573\n市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管\n\n19\n00:07:14,831 --> 00:07:39,586\n沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管\n\n20\n00:07:41,052 --> 00:08:09,430\n你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?\n\n21\n00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:21,250\n報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看\n\n22\n00:08:22,438 --> 00:08:50,866\n第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?\n\n23\n00:08:53,867 --> 00:09:15,019\n這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看\n\n24\n00:09:18,334 --> 00:09:36,807\n數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的\n\n25\n00:09:38,234 --> 00:09:59,359\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下\n\n26\n00:10:07,748 --> 00:10:28,867\n第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有\n\n27\n00:10:29,207 --> 00:10:45,402\n我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的\n\n28\n00:10:46,465 --> 00:11:13,476\n母法是內政部給的?是你嘛次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條德第5條德第6條德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力\n\n29\n00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:35,436\n次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊\n\n30\n00:11:36,643 --> 00:11:56,414\n報告委員因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔說得好講到重點了次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼\n\n31\n00:11:57,715 --> 00:12:20,795\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦\n\n32\n00:12:26,088 --> 00:12:49,895\n這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊要怎麼辦呢他說第一項他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰\n\n33\n00:12:53,505 --> 00:13:08,874\n我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進\n\n34\n00:13:17,742 --> 00:13:22,927\n你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對\n\n35\n00:13:33,826 --> 00:14:01,936\n我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛\n\n36\n00:14:03,092 --> 00:14:27,880\n法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論\n\n37\n00:14:29,472 --> 00:14:50,706\n請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?\n\n38\n00:14:52,332 --> 00:15:19,320\n都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎\n\n39\n00:15:20,458 --> 00:15:23,287\n好可以了謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長謝謝大家\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11198\t26124\t主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長\n26924\t47190\t那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長\n47870\t72073\t那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢\n73393\t88636\t那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題\n89847\t107182\t馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意\n107702\t135602\t那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以\n136428\t157757\t跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊\n159358\t186647\t要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個\n188058\t210436\t市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長\n211497\t239433\t行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有\n240794\t264868\t後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?\n266108\t291566\t我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊\n295748\t308175\t你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對\n310556\t333045\t現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證 集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎報告委員我們同意 我們回去會檢討的OK了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙\n338953\t367940\t不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁\n368962\t385155\t其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易\n386092\t409900\t被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎\n417040\t433573\t市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管\n434831\t459586\t沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管\n461052\t489430\t你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到 次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?\n491759\t501250\t報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看\n502438\t530866\t第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?\n533867\t555019\t這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看\n558334\t576807\t數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的\n578234\t599359\t詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員 第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎 次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下\n607748\t628867\t第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有\n629207\t645402\t我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的\n646465\t673476\t母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 德第5條 德第6條 德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力\n674676\t695436\t次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊\n696643\t716414\t報告委員 因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔 說得好 講到重點了 次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德 我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼\n717715\t740795\t詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦\n746088\t769895\t這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來 那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊 要怎麼辦呢他說第一項 他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長 你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰\n773505\t788874\t我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進\n797742\t802927\t你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對\n813826\t841936\t我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛\n843092\t867880\t法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論\n869472\t890706\t請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?\n892332\t919320\t都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎\n920458\t923287\t好 可以了 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家\n","txt":"主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長\n那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長\n那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢\n那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題\n馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意\n那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以\n跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊\n要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個\n市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長\n行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有\n後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?\n我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊\n你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對\n現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證 集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎報告委員我們同意 我們回去會檢討的OK了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙\n不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁\n其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易\n被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎\n市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管\n沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管\n你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到 次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?\n報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看\n第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?\n這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看\n數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員 第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎 次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下\n第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有\n我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的\n母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 德第5條 德第6條 德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力\n次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊\n報告委員 因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔 說得好 講到重點了 次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德 我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦\n這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來 那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊 要怎麼辦呢他說第一項 他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長 你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰\n我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進\n你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對\n我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛\n法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論\n請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?\n都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎\n好 可以了 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.198 --> 00:26.124\n主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長\n\n00:26.924 --> 00:47.190\n那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長\n\n00:47.870 --> 01:12.073\n那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢\n\n01:13.393 --> 01:28.636\n那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題\n\n01:29.847 --> 01:47.182\n馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意\n\n01:47.702 --> 02:15.602\n那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以\n\n02:16.428 --> 02:37.757\n跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊\n\n02:39.358 --> 03:06.647\n要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個\n\n03:08.058 --> 03:30.436\n市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長\n\n03:31.497 --> 03:59.433\n行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關有\n\n04:00.794 --> 04:24.868\n後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?\n\n04:26.108 --> 04:51.566\n我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊\n\n04:55.748 --> 05:08.175\n你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對\n\n05:10.556 --> 05:33.045\n現在呢我要向你們你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合外勤集合沒辦法用AI沒辦法用人工智慧取代的你同意嗎報告委員我們同意我們回去會檢討的OK了謝謝署長請回我們請看下一頁好現在我們來講詐騙\n\n05:38.953 --> 06:07.940\n不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁\n\n06:08.962 --> 06:25.155\n其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易\n\n06:26.092 --> 06:49.900\n被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎\n\n06:57.040 --> 07:13.573\n市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管\n\n07:14.831 --> 07:39.586\n沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管\n\n07:41.052 --> 08:09.430\n你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?\n\n08:11.759 --> 08:21.250\n報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看\n\n08:22.438 --> 08:50.866\n第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?\n\n08:53.867 --> 09:15.019\n這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看\n\n09:18.334 --> 09:36.807\n數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的\n\n09:38.234 --> 09:59.359\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下\n\n10:07.748 --> 10:28.867\n第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有\n\n10:29.207 --> 10:45.402\n我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的\n\n10:46.465 --> 11:13.476\n母法是內政部給的?是你嘛次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條德第5條德第6條德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力\n\n11:14.676 --> 11:35.436\n次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊\n\n11:36.643 --> 11:56.414\n報告委員因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔說得好講到重點了次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼\n\n11:57.715 --> 12:20.795\n詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦\n\n12:26.088 --> 12:49.895\n這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊要怎麼辦呢他說第一項他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰\n\n12:53.505 --> 13:08.874\n我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進\n\n13:17.742 --> 13:22.927\n你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對\n\n13:33.826 --> 14:01.936\n我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛\n\n14:03.092 --> 14:27.880\n法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論\n\n14:29.472 --> 14:50.706\n請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?\n\n14:52.332 --> 15:19.320\n都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎\n\n15:20.458 --> 15:23.287\n好可以了謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長謝謝大家\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.198,"end":26.124,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的政部長"},{"start":26.924,"end":47.19,"text":"那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下因為這次我們打詐當中署發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是署發部居然只是副署長"},{"start":47.87,"end":72.073,"text":"那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢"},{"start":73.393,"end":88.636,"text":"那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題"},{"start":89.847,"end":107.182,"text":"馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意"},{"start":107.702,"end":135.602,"text":"那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以"},{"start":136.428,"end":157.757,"text":"跟委員報告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊"},{"start":159.358,"end":186.647,"text":"要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個"},{"start":188.058,"end":210.436,"text":"市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長"},{"start":211.497,"end":239.433,"text":"行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有"},{"start":240.794,"end":264.868,"text":"後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?"},{"start":266.108,"end":291.566,"text":"我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊"},{"start":295.748,"end":308.175,"text":"你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對"},{"start":310.556,"end":333.045,"text":"現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證 集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎報告委員我們同意 我們回去會檢討的OK了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙"},{"start":338.953,"end":367.94,"text":"不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁"},{"start":368.962,"end":385.155,"text":"其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易"},{"start":386.092,"end":409.9,"text":"被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎"},{"start":417.04,"end":433.573,"text":"市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管"},{"start":434.831,"end":459.586,"text":"沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管"},{"start":461.052,"end":489.43,"text":"你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到 次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?"},{"start":491.759,"end":501.25,"text":"報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看"},{"start":502.438,"end":530.866,"text":"第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?"},{"start":533.867,"end":555.019,"text":"這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看"},{"start":558.334,"end":576.807,"text":"數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的"},{"start":578.234,"end":599.359,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員 第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎 次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下"},{"start":607.748,"end":628.867,"text":"第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有"},{"start":629.207,"end":645.402,"text":"我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的"},{"start":646.465,"end":673.476,"text":"母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 德第5條 德第6條 德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力"},{"start":674.676,"end":695.436,"text":"次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊"},{"start":696.643,"end":716.414,"text":"報告委員 因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔 說得好 講到重點了 次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德 我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼"},{"start":717.715,"end":740.795,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦"},{"start":746.088,"end":769.895,"text":"這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來 那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊 要怎麼辦呢他說第一項 他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長 你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰"},{"start":773.505,"end":788.874,"text":"我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進"},{"start":797.742,"end":802.927,"text":"你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":813.826,"end":841.936,"text":"我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛"},{"start":843.092,"end":867.88,"text":"法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論"},{"start":869.472,"end":890.706,"text":"請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?"},{"start":892.332,"end":919.32,"text":"都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎"},{"start":920.458,"end":923.287,"text":"好 可以了 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時6分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體的記者女士先生。先請內政部的馬次長、鐘署長，還有數發部的陳副署長，後面再請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：馬次長、鐘署長、陳副署長、鄭部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在開始之前先謝謝召委，但還是要跟召委表達一下，因為在這次我們打詐當中，數發部相當重要，我也知道以我們委員會的慣例，非本委員會的部會首長大概是不會來，所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受，但是數發部竟然只來了副署長，我也知道他目前是數位產業署的代理署長，沒邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜。"],["主席：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不然待會的質詢，以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回復，這點跟召委表達一下。"],["主席：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個議題這麼重要，打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法，也不是靠法務部而已，還是要靠數發部。"],["主席：是，謝謝鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那接下來我就開始我的質詢了。我今天的質詢要先從另外一個主題「移工管理優先補足專勤人力」開始；打詐的部分是「犯罪溯源洗防法應納管平台」。我們先來看一下，請教次長，你認為移工的管理是不是臺灣的重要課題？馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看，目前移工大概跟犯罪有兩個關聯，一個是移工本身，尤其是失聯移工，他可能是犯罪者下手的對象，但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的犯罪者，你同意嗎？"],["馬次長士元：完全同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於這些失聯移工，為什麼他們很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢？因為「失聯」的意思就是逃避主管機關的查緝對不對？所以他就進入了地下，通訊也是、匯兌也是，請問就你評估目前移民署專勤隊的外勤查緝業務，有多少可以透過AI取代？又有多少一定要用有經驗的人才可以？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以沒有辦法用AI取代，除非是後台的資料分析？"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長同意次長這樣的認知嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們也看到移民署不是只有專勤隊查緝這些失聯移工，還包括旅客的運量持續遽增，要請國境大隊增加員額。包括在111年行政院核增給桃園國際機場30個人，有沒有？你們這30個人都補足了嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有補足？有給你員額，不代表有補足啊！次長，你要注意，行政院對你們好，但有沒有補足我不知道。"],["鐘署長景琨：應該是約僱人力……"],["鍾委員佳濱：疫後又給你們……你們又要求職僱，為什麼這次是職僱？因為你們有的要用僱員，要增加68個。次長，你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：總共前面給的30個是兩年期的，有期限性的約僱人力；後面給的30個是正職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是我簡報後面寫的嘛！在今年2月5日又同意增加30個人，而且是全數同意。馬次長，行政院這樣很慷慨，表示行政院非常支持移民署的業務。"],["鐘署長景琨：是第一階段我們跟他請增……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我現在問次長，你來看一下，次長，我關心你們第四代的自動通關系統，為什麼？因為全國的國際主要機場在通關的人別驗證上，大量使用數位化的智能機關取代，今年3月的時候我問副署長有沒有加強自動通關？有。後來我問到，自動通關的進度怎麼樣，內政部卻不知怎麼回答。次長，你知道目前第四代自動通關設備（e-Gate）進度如何？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前已經完成43座的建置。"],["鍾委員佳濱：43座，多久能夠全部建置完成？"],["馬次長士元：明年底之前。"],["鍾委員佳濱：建置完成之後，你們人力的需求壓力就減低了嘛？有了自動通關，是不是你們人力的壓力就減低了？"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告，這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之前，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在不是問你108年，這些自動化的通關機器設備給你了，如果壓力沒有減輕，我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，是可以減輕一部分，我可以這樣回答。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要告訴你，次長，你看一下，我們在2021年有66萬個移工，到現在有75萬個，但是我們專勤隊的人力還減少19個，次長，你覺得專勤隊的人力這樣夠嗎？"],["馬次長士元：大量不足。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我現在告訴你要做個決斷，因為行政院不是聖誕老公公，你們要多少就有多少，現在已經給移民署增加60個了，對不對？你回去要檢討一下，如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境驗證稽核人力的壓力，給你的這60個員額要設法去補強移民署專勤隊現場稽核、外勤稽核，這些沒辦法用AI、沒辦法用人工智慧取代的，你同意嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們同意，我們回去會檢討這個部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以了，謝謝，署長請回。","現在我們來講詐騙，不只用點數詐騙洗錢，還有未成年的性剝削，我們看到有什麼呢？我再舉例給你看，數位部數發署副署長請上來，要儲值直播平臺的點數，消費達一定的金額才能外出見面；遊戲點數利用未成年來洗錢，未成年受到兒少的保護；用虛擬的點數進行性影像的滿足。","部長、次長，請你看一下，因為我前面問過你，違法金流用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡？我們的點數商要KYC，它對誰KYC？被害者，就是付錢的人，他去買點數；另外，違法交易的人，他知道這個不行。他在創意私房要去交易，被害者，我們這樣稱呼，他覺得他做的是合法的事情，他買合法的點數；違法交易的人，他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道，他去買遊戲點數，這些點數商都知道，但是進入了直播平臺、進入了創意私房的網路平臺，犯罪分子用人頭去做接收，你覺得KYC，K的到嗎？K不到嘛！它能知道遊戲點數轉移給誰嗎？次長，是不是這樣子？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個都轉到境外去了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以怎麼辦呢？我們看一下有沒有機制可以處理，今年10月我在交通委員會問了數發部部長，我問，以點數在平臺上沒辦法追蹤之交易，我們用洗防法納管，數發部支持嗎？部長說，支持啊！副署長，你們是數產署，你們部長支持用洗防法納管平臺這些無法追蹤交易的點數，結果你們給我的答復是什麼？在現有的網路平臺進行點數交易，已現有的機制就可以處理，不須以洗防法納管。你們可以要求具點數交易的網路平臺及直播平臺確實執行KYC，來防止詐騙、洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎？你們做得到嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們會努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會努力就是做不到，次長，洗防法當中的查緝、犯罪防制是不是你們在管的？你們這個法令有沒有給數發部去管這些詐騙的金流？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，洗防法是法務部主管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我不是說洗防法，我是說詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，是你們管的嘛？"],["馬次長士元：是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理，我給你看，第三方支付淪為博弈網站、詐團洗錢的幫兇，怎麼說呢？水房集團用人頭公司、用假文件偽裝成合法生意去交易，這些都用第三方支付，但是第三方支付服務機構有一個能量登錄，對不對？數發部是不是這樣子？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法，有沒有辦法找到方法把這個監理上的漏洞堵起來？有了嘛！為什麼還是可以？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個部分如果有監管上面的問題，其實我們一直希望它能夠儘量不會有，所以我們做了很多的行政檢查、行政調查，目前也是鼓勵三支的業者成立公會，我們要做公私聯防。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙，黃署長，請過來幫次長。數發部說，第三方支付是屬於類特許行業，次長，你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個不了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業，第三方支付是類特許行業，特許行業是金管會管的，因此詐欺犯罪危害防制條例在今年7月公布後我們就授權了，裡面規定只要這些第三方支付人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防制、服務能量登記，就不得提供第三方支付。請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個，次長，你知道嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個部分應該是在金管會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：數發部回答一下。"],["陳副署長慧敏：第三方支付是數發部主管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！到現在行政院、內政部、數發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚，所以數發部預告了「第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶認定及控管措施處理辦法」草案，數發部，有沒有？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是，我們其實非常感謝有打詐四法，因為有賦予我們任務，我們會依據打詐四法裡面其中兩個法案，針對第三方的部分我們有訂定一些子法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：母法是不是內政部給的？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長一直很用力點頭嘛！他們給你權力，你有沒有用？次長，你看一下它怎麼用？這是目前數發部定出來的草案，第四條「得」，第五條「得」，第六條「得」，第七、八、九條都是「得」、「得」、「得」，次長，就你所知道，如果你的母法給它授權，它的子法寫「得」是什麼意思？也可以不做啊！有沒有強制力？次長，你覺得這樣的子法有沒有強制力？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個我們回去跟數發部確認一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然這不是你的業管範疇，數發部可不可以告訴次長，內政部這麼的支持，授權它的主管法令給你們，你們為什麼是寫「得」、「得」、「得」？"],["黃簡任視察國源：委員好，有關於……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們今天沒有次長來，你們很吃虧啊！"],["黃簡任視察國源：報告委員，我們相關的子法預告中是「得」的部分，有一些部分是因為我們打詐專法母法裡面就已經是寫「得」了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：說得好，講到重點了，次長有沒有聽到？你們的打詐專法，上位法的授權是用「得」，我們來看一下專法是什麼？詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十四條規定，第三方支付服務業者對客戶應盡善良管理人之注意義務，應強化確認客戶身分，並得採取對客戶身分持續審查、延後撥款、拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等管控措施。次長，有沒有發現問題了？你很支持數發部，他們怎麼能定「得」？因為母法就是「得」啊！怎麼辦？7月底剛公布的，怎麼辦？"],["馬次長士元：這個部分我們跟數發部設法來強化它的執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部長，要請你來了，第三十五條要怎麼辦呢？第三十五條第三項規定「由數位經濟相關產業主管機關」，這應該就是數發署或者數發部，「會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之」。部長，你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會持續跟數發部就第三方支付……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要做結論了，因為上位法的制定行政院很積極，我們立法院也很努力去審議，在很短的時間內通過，但是通過之後發現有沒有不足？部長，有沒有不足？有不足嘛！次長，你們這個法要不要繼續精進？你點頭表示要嘛！是不是？對著麥克風說，我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，是不是這樣？要不要精進？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們滾動式來修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，要精進嘛！法務部鄭部長，第三十五條你們有責任，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會協助數發部跟內政部來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為上位法的制定，前述的處理辦法能不能很好的管理第三方支付業呢？如果不行，要怎麼調適？所以我們今天在這裡關心打詐，四法通過了，法過了不是就沒事了，法上面還有一些不足的地方，實務上數發部做不到嘛！它只能「得」，因為上位法只有「得」，法務部要幫助數發部來研擬怎麼補漏好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，這樣你知道原因了沒有？法是你主管的，你們內政部主管的，用是誰在用？數發部要去做事前的一些規管，然後內政部警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候，循線從網路平台的洗錢去追蹤金流，才有辦法抓到，是不是這樣子？好，最後的結論，請研議防止透過具點數交易的網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案，這個要幾個單位來弄，內政部主導好不好？內政部可不可以？"],["馬次長士元：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！那法務部跟數發部一起加入可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內可以嗎？都點頭、都可以，副署長回去告訴你們部長，我問過，他在交通委員會承諾我，你們底下的人說不用，到底是誰聽誰的，回去檢討一下，今天次長沒有來，我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了，還是底下的執行機關認為無所謂，這個要是發生在法務部，鄭部長就慘了，發生在內政部，劉部長就辛苦了，所以我希望這個事情，數發部要好好地跟內政部跟法務部來配合，可以嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，好，謝謝，謝謝部長、次長跟副署長，謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}}