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\"這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 794.656, \"end\": 794.756, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 794.756, \"end\": 794.776, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 794.776, \"end\": 794.796, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 794.796, \"end\": 794.916, \"score\": 0.558}, {\"word\": \"沸\", \"start\": 794.916, \"end\": 794.936, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沸\", \"start\": 794.936, \"end\": 795.036, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"揚\"}, {\"word\": \"揚\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 795.036, \"end\": 795.477, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 795.477, \"end\": 795.497, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 795.497, \"end\": 795.577, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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\"我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 817.39, \"end\": 817.85, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 817.85, \"end\": 818.011, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 818.011, \"end\": 818.111, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 818.111, \"end\": 819.352, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 819.352, \"end\": 819.492, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 819.492, \"end\": 819.852, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 819.852, \"end\": 819.972, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 819.972, \"end\": 820.092, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 820.092, \"end\": 820.112, \"score\": 0.018}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 820.112, \"end\": 820.252, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 820.252, \"end\": 820.412, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 835.404, \"end\": 835.684, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 835.684, \"end\": 835.965, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 835.965, \"end\": 836.245, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 836.245, \"end\": 836.485, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"泡\", \"start\": 836.485, \"end\": 836.725, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"沫\", \"start\": 836.725, \"end\": 836.945, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 836.945, \"end\": 837.166, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 837.166, \"end\": 837.966, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 837.966, \"end\": 838.187, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 838.187, \"end\": 838.887, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 838.887, \"end\": 839.088, \"score\": 0.919}, 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{\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1447.998, \"end\": 1448.158, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1448.158, \"end\": 1448.318, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1448.318, \"end\": 1448.338, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,530 --> 00:00:06,810\n主席\n\n2\n00:00:21,607 --> 00:00:26,930\n部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外\n\n3\n00:00:47,501 --> 00:00:49,603\n公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第3是12%,第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾\n\n4\n00:01:03,334 --> 00:01:07,555\n意思就是說公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重\n\n5\n00:01:24,534 --> 00:01:53,087\n那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建\n\n6\n00:01:54,881 --> 00:02:00,445\n這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎\n\n7\n00:02:26,899 --> 00:02:34,445\n集管署12%12%人家外面講說高達三四成那你講12%也可以整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%\n\n8\n00:02:52,469 --> 00:02:56,512\n現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說真的不要再逼死人了\n\n9\n00:03:22,572 --> 00:03:30,398\n那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作\n\n10\n00:03:38,139 --> 00:03:38,619\n一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是\n\n11\n00:04:06,858 --> 00:04:16,762\n如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我的公文一星期\n\n12\n00:04:34,728 --> 00:04:50,669\n這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊\n\n13\n00:04:52,761 --> 00:05:06,279\n跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文\n\n14\n00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:22,288\n那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦翠上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時翠上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道\n\n15\n00:05:23,529 --> 00:05:33,319\n15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個申請\n\n16\n00:05:39,906 --> 00:05:40,607\n原本職場霸凌的作業辦公室\n\n17\n00:06:05,287 --> 00:06:29,335\n機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們要兩個月喔\n\n18\n00:06:31,836 --> 00:06:52,528\n結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員\n\n19\n00:06:59,188 --> 00:07:15,241\n報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的\n\n20\n00:07:16,723 --> 00:07:17,724\n委員會主席林淑芬\n\n21\n00:07:36,691 --> 00:07:39,433\n這件事情我們就等你因為這個不法侵害對於整個同仁士氣大吉很大好來那保定我請教你正規正辦的事情\n\n22\n00:08:04,905 --> 00:08:08,768\n今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS\n\n23\n00:08:30,625 --> 00:08:46,714\n測出率高達54%（而直掀餐盒．我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒．但是偏偏．直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高．所以我們台灣．看守台灣團體．就把台灣的採樣．送到iPen去檢驗．他送了17個．最後只有8個被檢驗．他們有篩選．\n\n24\n00:08:57,959 --> 00:09:19,123\n8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過\n\n25\n00:09:22,164 --> 00:09:46,636\n8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你的書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過\n\n26\n00:09:52,028 --> 00:09:57,253\n莊市長市長沒有看過喔報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告\n\n27\n00:09:58,527 --> 00:10:12,517\n但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我給你報告你沒看過我給你報告防油紙袋不要忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防油紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋\n\n28\n00:10:26,209 --> 00:10:28,050\n．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．\n\n29\n00:10:46,374 --> 00:10:48,637\n對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講\n\n30\n00:11:03,463 --> 00:11:05,686\n維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩\n\n31\n00:11:28,946 --> 00:11:47,298\n朱莉·泰姆微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準\n\n32\n00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:54,482\n直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐\n\n33\n00:12:21,015 --> 00:12:38,428\n再生紙包材臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測一個是\n\n34\n00:12:43,123 --> 00:13:06,221\n全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡\n\n35\n00:13:14,656 --> 00:13:19,601\n這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚\n\n36\n00:13:37,390 --> 00:13:54,003\n我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個\n\n37\n00:13:55,404 --> 00:14:20,167\n化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有\n\n38\n00:14:20,848 --> 00:14:23,212\n所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁我想那個\n\n39\n00:14:30,082 --> 00:14:51,524\n雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫我覺得我會請他們喔現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來我跟你講它是永久性的化學物質不易被分解生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸而且它持久性而且因為累積不但累積再累積所以它有生物的放大性\n\n40\n00:14:52,145 --> 00:14:52,205\n李慧琼議員\n\n41\n00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:16,576\n北極熊市長\n\n42\n00:15:37,429 --> 00:15:42,053\n對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大\n\n43\n00:16:02,330 --> 00:16:12,659\n他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除\n\n44\n00:16:19,244 --> 00:16:31,656\n常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來\n\n45\n00:16:34,875 --> 00:16:39,256\n以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的\n\n46\n00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:12,844\n國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔\n\n47\n00:17:34,071 --> 00:17:48,181\n對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西\n\n48\n00:17:49,022 --> 00:17:58,329\n那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．\n\n49\n00:18:12,259 --> 00:18:27,785\n2023年1月去年荷蘭德國丹麥瑞典挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS全禁\n\n50\n00:18:28,968 --> 00:18:57,361\n他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用\n\n51\n00:18:57,921 --> 00:19:21,640\n我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔\n\n52\n00:19:26,345 --> 00:19:52,445\n美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦我想問你你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣\n\n53\n00:19:54,151 --> 00:19:56,974\n結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%\n\n54\n00:20:13,047 --> 00:20:21,191\nPFOS13個樣品測值大於4個耐克1公升的佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水因為水值就是高山老外的就測不中啊啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做\n\n55\n00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:57,879\n我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個莊市長回答一下當然也沒有你什麼都不知道喔有我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次\n\n56\n00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:13,034\n來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸\n\n57\n00:21:19,625 --> 00:21:37,529\n報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果\n\n58\n00:21:48,851 --> 00:21:55,874\n訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做\n\n59\n00:22:17,341 --> 00:22:30,449\n那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響\n\n60\n00:22:32,113 --> 00:22:38,800\n那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有\n\n61\n00:22:50,629 --> 00:23:07,809\n因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final\n\n62\n00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:37,463\n所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定\n\n63\n00:23:38,311 --> 00:24:05,207\n你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議\n\n64\n00:24:07,978 --> 00:24:08,338\n主席主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6530\t6810\t主席\n21607\t26930\t部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外\n47501\t49603\t公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第3是12%,第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾\n63334\t67555\t意思就是說公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重\n84534\t113087\t那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建\n114881\t120445\t這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎\n146899\t154445\t集管署12%12%人家外面講說高達三四成那你講12%也可以整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%\n172469\t176512\t現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說真的不要再逼死人了\n202572\t210398\t那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作\n218139\t218619\t一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是\n246858\t256762\t如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我的公文一星期\n274728\t290669\t這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊\n292761\t306279\t跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文\n307160\t322288\t那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦翠上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時翠上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道\n323529\t333319\t15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個申請\n339906\t340607\t原本職場霸凌的作業辦公室\n365287\t389335\t機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們要兩個月喔\n391836\t412528\t結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員\n419188\t435241\t報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的\n436723\t437724\t委員會主席林淑芬\n456691\t459433\t這件事情我們就等你因為這個不法侵害對於整個同仁士氣大吉很大好來那保定我請教你正規正辦的事情\n484905\t488768\t今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS\n510625\t526714\t測出率高達54%（而直掀餐盒．我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒．但是偏偏．直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高．所以我們台灣．看守台灣團體．就把台灣的採樣．送到iPen去檢驗．他送了17個．最後只有8個被檢驗．他們有篩選．\n537959\t559123\t8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過\n562164\t586636\t8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你的書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過\n592028\t597253\t莊市長市長沒有看過喔報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告\n598527\t612517\t但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我給你報告你沒看過我給你報告防油紙袋不要忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防油紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋\n626209\t628050\t．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．\n646374\t648637\t對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講\n663463\t665686\t維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩\n688946\t707298\t朱莉·泰姆 微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準\n710620\t714482\t直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐\n741015\t758428\t再生紙包材 臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測 一個是\n763123\t786221\t全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣 部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長 你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡\n794656\t799601\t這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚\n817390\t834003\t我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個\n835404\t860167\t化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有\n860848\t863212\t所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁 我想那個\n870082\t891524\t雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫 我覺得我會請他們喔 現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來 我跟你講 它是永久性的化學物質 不易被分解 生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸 而且它持久性而且因為累積 不但累積再累積 所以它有生物的放大性\n892145\t892205\t李慧琼議員\n916476\t916576\t北極熊市長\n937429\t942053\t對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大\n962330\t972659\t他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除\n979244\t991656\t常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來\n994875\t999256\t以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的\n1025120\t1032844\t國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔\n1054071\t1068181\t對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西\n1069022\t1078329\t那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．\n1092259\t1107785\t2023年1月去年 荷蘭 德國 丹麥 瑞典 挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案 而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS 全禁\n1108968\t1137361\t他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA 我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用\n1137921\t1161640\t我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔\n1166345\t1192445\t美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦 我想問你 你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣\n1194151\t1196974\t結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA 37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%\n1213047\t1221191\tPFOS 13個樣品 測值大於4個耐克1公升的 佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水 因為水值就是高山 老外的就測不中啊 啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做\n1232950\t1257879\t我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個 莊市長回答一下當然也沒有 你什麼都不知道喔有 我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員 那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次\n1259760\t1273034\t來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸\n1279625\t1297529\t報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果\n1308851\t1315874\t訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做\n1337341\t1350449\t那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響\n1352113\t1358800\t那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有\n1370629\t1387809\t因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final\n1389716\t1417463\t所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定\n1418311\t1445207\t你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議\n1447978\t1448338\t主席主席\n","txt":"主席\n部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外\n公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第3是12%,第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾\n意思就是說公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重\n那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建\n這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎\n集管署12%12%人家外面講說高達三四成那你講12%也可以整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%\n現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說真的不要再逼死人了\n那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作\n一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是\n如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我的公文一星期\n這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊\n跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文\n那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦翠上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時翠上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道\n15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個申請\n原本職場霸凌的作業辦公室\n機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們要兩個月喔\n結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員\n報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的\n委員會主席林淑芬\n這件事情我們就等你因為這個不法侵害對於整個同仁士氣大吉很大好來那保定我請教你正規正辦的事情\n今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS\n測出率高達54%（而直掀餐盒．我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒．但是偏偏．直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高．所以我們台灣．看守台灣團體．就把台灣的採樣．送到iPen去檢驗．他送了17個．最後只有8個被檢驗．他們有篩選．\n8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過\n8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你的書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過\n莊市長市長沒有看過喔報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告\n但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我給你報告你沒看過我給你報告防油紙袋不要忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防油紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋\n．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．\n對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講\n維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩\n朱莉·泰姆 微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準\n直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐\n再生紙包材 臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測 一個是\n全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣 部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長 你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡\n這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚\n我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個\n化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有\n所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁 我想那個\n雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫 我覺得我會請他們喔 現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來 我跟你講 它是永久性的化學物質 不易被分解 生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸 而且它持久性而且因為累積 不但累積再累積 所以它有生物的放大性\n李慧琼議員\n北極熊市長\n對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大\n他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除\n常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來\n以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的\n國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔\n對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西\n那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．\n2023年1月去年 荷蘭 德國 丹麥 瑞典 挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案 而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS 全禁\n他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA 我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用\n我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔\n美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦 我想問你 你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣\n結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA 37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%\nPFOS 13個樣品 測值大於4個耐克1公升的 佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水 因為水值就是高山 老外的就測不中啊 啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做\n我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個 莊市長回答一下當然也沒有 你什麼都不知道喔有 我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員 那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次\n來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸\n報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果\n訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做\n那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響\n那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有\n因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final\n所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定\n你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議\n主席主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.530 --> 00:06.810\n主席\n\n00:21.607 --> 00:26.930\n部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外\n\n00:47.501 --> 00:49.603\n公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第3是12%,第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾\n\n01:03.334 --> 01:07.555\n意思就是說公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重\n\n01:24.534 --> 01:53.087\n那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建\n\n01:54.881 --> 02:00.445\n這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎\n\n02:26.899 --> 02:34.445\n集管署12%12%人家外面講說高達三四成那你講12%也可以整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%\n\n02:52.469 --> 02:56.512\n現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說真的不要再逼死人了\n\n03:22.572 --> 03:30.398\n那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作\n\n03:38.139 --> 03:38.619\n一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是\n\n04:06.858 --> 04:16.762\n如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我的公文一星期\n\n04:34.728 --> 04:50.669\n這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊\n\n04:52.761 --> 05:06.279\n跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文\n\n05:07.160 --> 05:22.288\n那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦翠上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時翠上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道\n\n05:23.529 --> 05:33.319\n15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個申請\n\n05:39.906 --> 05:40.607\n原本職場霸凌的作業辦公室\n\n06:05.287 --> 06:29.335\n機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們要兩個月喔\n\n06:31.836 --> 06:52.528\n結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員\n\n06:59.188 --> 07:15.241\n報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的\n\n07:16.723 --> 07:17.724\n委員會主席林淑芬\n\n07:36.691 --> 07:39.433\n這件事情我們就等你因為這個不法侵害對於整個同仁士氣大吉很大好來那保定我請教你正規正辦的事情\n\n08:04.905 --> 08:08.768\n今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS\n\n08:30.625 --> 08:46.714\n測出率高達54%（而直掀餐盒．我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒．但是偏偏．直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高．所以我們台灣．看守台灣團體．就把台灣的採樣．送到iPen去檢驗．他送了17個．最後只有8個被檢驗．他們有篩選．\n\n08:57.959 --> 09:19.123\n8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過\n\n09:22.164 --> 09:46.636\n8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你的書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過\n\n09:52.028 --> 09:57.253\n莊市長市長沒有看過喔報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告\n\n09:58.527 --> 10:12.517\n但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我給你報告你沒看過我給你報告防油紙袋不要忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防油紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋\n\n10:26.209 --> 10:28.050\n．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．\n\n10:46.374 --> 10:48.637\n對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講\n\n11:03.463 --> 11:05.686\n維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩\n\n11:28.946 --> 11:47.298\n朱莉·泰姆微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準\n\n11:50.620 --> 11:54.482\n直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐\n\n12:21.015 --> 12:38.428\n再生紙包材臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測一個是\n\n12:43.123 --> 13:06.221\n全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡\n\n13:14.656 --> 13:19.601\n這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚\n\n13:37.390 --> 13:54.003\n我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個\n\n13:55.404 --> 14:20.167\n化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有\n\n14:20.848 --> 14:23.212\n所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁我想那個\n\n14:30.082 --> 14:51.524\n雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫我覺得我會請他們喔現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來我跟你講它是永久性的化學物質不易被分解生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸而且它持久性而且因為累積不但累積再累積所以它有生物的放大性\n\n14:52.145 --> 14:52.205\n李慧琼議員\n\n15:16.476 --> 15:16.576\n北極熊市長\n\n15:37.429 --> 15:42.053\n對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大\n\n16:02.330 --> 16:12.659\n他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除\n\n16:19.244 --> 16:31.656\n常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來\n\n16:34.875 --> 16:39.256\n以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的\n\n17:05.120 --> 17:12.844\n國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔\n\n17:34.071 --> 17:48.181\n對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西\n\n17:49.022 --> 17:58.329\n那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．\n\n18:12.259 --> 18:27.785\n2023年1月去年荷蘭德國丹麥瑞典挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS全禁\n\n18:28.968 --> 18:57.361\n他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用\n\n18:57.921 --> 19:21.640\n我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔\n\n19:26.345 --> 19:52.445\n美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦我想問你你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣\n\n19:54.151 --> 19:56.974\n結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%\n\n20:13.047 --> 20:21.191\nPFOS13個樣品測值大於4個耐克1公升的佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水因為水值就是高山老外的就測不中啊啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做\n\n20:32.950 --> 20:57.879\n我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個莊市長回答一下當然也沒有你什麼都不知道喔有我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次\n\n20:59.760 --> 21:13.034\n來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸\n\n21:19.625 --> 21:37.529\n報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果\n\n21:48.851 --> 21:55.874\n訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做\n\n22:17.341 --> 22:30.449\n那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響\n\n22:32.113 --> 22:38.800\n那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有\n\n22:50.629 --> 23:07.809\n因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final\n\n23:09.716 --> 23:37.463\n所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定\n\n23:38.311 --> 24:05.207\n你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議\n\n24:07.978 --> 24:08.338\n主席主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.53,"end":6.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":21.607,"end":26.93,"text":"部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外"},{"start":47.501,"end":49.603,"text":"公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第3是12%,第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾"},{"start":63.334,"end":67.555,"text":"意思就是說公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重"},{"start":84.534,"end":113.087,"text":"那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建"},{"start":114.881,"end":120.445,"text":"這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎"},{"start":146.899,"end":154.445,"text":"集管署12%12%人家外面講說高達三四成那你講12%也可以整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%"},{"start":172.469,"end":176.512,"text":"現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說真的不要再逼死人了"},{"start":202.572,"end":210.398,"text":"那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作"},{"start":218.139,"end":218.619,"text":"一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是"},{"start":246.858,"end":256.762,"text":"如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我的公文一星期"},{"start":274.728,"end":290.669,"text":"這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊"},{"start":292.761,"end":306.279,"text":"跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文"},{"start":307.16,"end":322.288,"text":"那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦翠上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時翠上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道"},{"start":323.529,"end":333.319,"text":"15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個申請"},{"start":339.906,"end":340.607,"text":"原本職場霸凌的作業辦公室"},{"start":365.287,"end":389.335,"text":"機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們要兩個月喔"},{"start":391.836,"end":412.528,"text":"結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員"},{"start":419.188,"end":435.241,"text":"報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的"},{"start":436.723,"end":437.724,"text":"委員會主席林淑芬"},{"start":456.691,"end":459.433,"text":"這件事情我們就等你因為這個不法侵害對於整個同仁士氣大吉很大好來那保定我請教你正規正辦的事情"},{"start":484.905,"end":488.768,"text":"今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS"},{"start":510.625,"end":526.714,"text":"測出率高達54%（而直掀餐盒．我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒．但是偏偏．直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高．所以我們台灣．看守台灣團體．就把台灣的採樣．送到iPen去檢驗．他送了17個．最後只有8個被檢驗．他們有篩選．"},{"start":537.959,"end":559.123,"text":"8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過"},{"start":562.164,"end":586.636,"text":"8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你的書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過"},{"start":592.028,"end":597.253,"text":"莊市長市長沒有看過喔報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告"},{"start":598.527,"end":612.517,"text":"但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我給你報告你沒看過我給你報告防油紙袋不要忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防油紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋"},{"start":626.209,"end":628.05,"text":"．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．"},{"start":646.374,"end":648.637,"text":"對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講"},{"start":663.463,"end":665.686,"text":"維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩"},{"start":688.946,"end":707.298,"text":"朱莉·泰姆 微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準"},{"start":710.62,"end":714.482,"text":"直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐"},{"start":741.015,"end":758.428,"text":"再生紙包材 臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測 一個是"},{"start":763.123,"end":786.221,"text":"全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣 部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長 你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡"},{"start":794.656,"end":799.601,"text":"這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚"},{"start":817.39,"end":834.003,"text":"我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個"},{"start":835.404,"end":860.167,"text":"化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有"},{"start":860.848,"end":863.212,"text":"所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁 我想那個"},{"start":870.082,"end":891.524,"text":"雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫 我覺得我會請他們喔 現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來 我跟你講 它是永久性的化學物質 不易被分解 生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸 而且它持久性而且因為累積 不但累積再累積 所以它有生物的放大性"},{"start":892.145,"end":892.205,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":916.476,"end":916.576,"text":"北極熊市長"},{"start":937.429,"end":942.053,"text":"對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大"},{"start":962.33,"end":972.659,"text":"他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除"},{"start":979.244,"end":991.656,"text":"常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來"},{"start":994.875,"end":999.256,"text":"以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的"},{"start":1025.12,"end":1032.844,"text":"國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔"},{"start":1054.071,"end":1068.181,"text":"對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西"},{"start":1069.022,"end":1078.329,"text":"那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．"},{"start":1092.259,"end":1107.785,"text":"2023年1月去年 荷蘭 德國 丹麥 瑞典 挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案 而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS 全禁"},{"start":1108.968,"end":1137.361,"text":"他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA 我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用"},{"start":1137.921,"end":1161.64,"text":"我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔"},{"start":1166.345,"end":1192.445,"text":"美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦 我想問你 你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣"},{"start":1194.151,"end":1196.974,"text":"結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA 37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%"},{"start":1213.047,"end":1221.191,"text":"PFOS 13個樣品 測值大於4個耐克1公升的 佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水 因為水值就是高山 老外的就測不中啊 啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做"},{"start":1232.95,"end":1257.879,"text":"我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個 莊市長回答一下當然也沒有 你什麼都不知道喔有 我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員 那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次"},{"start":1259.76,"end":1273.034,"text":"來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸"},{"start":1279.625,"end":1297.529,"text":"報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果"},{"start":1308.851,"end":1315.874,"text":"訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做"},{"start":1337.341,"end":1350.449,"text":"那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響"},{"start":1352.113,"end":1358.8,"text":"那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有"},{"start":1370.629,"end":1387.809,"text":"因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final"},{"start":1389.716,"end":1417.463,"text":"所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定"},{"start":1418.311,"end":1445.207,"text":"你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議"},{"start":1447.978,"end":1448.338,"text":"主席主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時58分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。職場霸凌的案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的，疾管署也被爆料，我首先要在這裡跟大家講，根據1111人力銀行的調查報告，職場霸凌裡面的產業別，除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外，接下來大概就是公部門，公務部門職場霸凌的比例雖然排名第四，但是第二名是13%，第四名是12%，相差無幾。意思就是，公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌問題僅次於製造業，是非常嚴重的，這是人力銀行的調查報告，職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重。","我再來講第二個問題，這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎？當受到不法侵害，不是都有正規管道嗎？為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料報導出來，然後機關才去重視，甚至出人命了，紙包不住火了，才要去面對？通常都是因為內部的正常管道被冷處理、被壓件，這是基本上整個事件的本質，一定是這樣子。這樣你知道我要說什麼了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們對於相關的事件絕對要預防，不允許有這樣的情形發生。"],["林委員淑芬：疾管署整備組組長的事件，你知道兩年內你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：疾管署12%。"],["林委員淑芬：12%，人家外面說高達三、四成，你講12%也可以。"],["邱部長泰源：整備組……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的是署內。"],["莊署長人祥：署內是12%。"],["林委員淑芬：整備組呢？"],["莊署長人祥：37%。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣的人員流動是正常的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有偏高的現象。"],["林委員淑芬：37%！現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人，補不到人以致其他的公務人員要分擔更多，在這種狀況裡面，顯然是因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住，然後很多人離職了，沒有離職的人還要做更多，所以這個單位是高壓狀態喔！所以難怪有人說：真的不要再逼死人了。這個組長被人家爆料，缺乏耐性，每天緊逼進度更新，要創新要亮點，卻不顧本業的業務無法運作，然後如果有催促急上線的亮點政策出包，就要卸責給底下的人，連訂某家便當他都要指定，吃久了又說不好吃、吃膩了，讓下面的人誠惶誠恐，然後對同仁大聲咆哮、摔公文、人身攻擊，說你怎麼那麼豬！這個剛才有人放過了，或許大家會覺得這一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好，可是如果這個組長對他們組裡面的工作同仁天天這樣說、天天這樣罵，這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣的霸凌和羞辱，情緒會好嗎？士氣會好嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：一定會影響，士氣會不好。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，你看我的公文是什麼時候發給你們的？我發給你們的公文已經一個禮拜了，這個是我發的公文，11月15日，這個事情我已經講了，你們內部有沒有人檢舉、有沒有人爆料、有沒有人陳情過？"],["邱部長泰源：今天中午疾管署會送……"],["莊署長人祥：會回應。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在問你們啊！你就在這裡回答就好了。"],["莊署長人祥：跟委員報告，應該是說，這位組長都沒有事先被申訴過，完全都沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？那為什麼我會知道？為什麼我會出這張公文？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，15日在Threads上面是有人爆料。"],["林委員淑芬：當時Threads上面爆料的時候，你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔？"],["莊署長人祥：今天凌晨的時候……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你本人知不知道？15日當時你知不知道？"],["莊署長人祥：15日Threads po出來當時我就知道了。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道以後怎麼處理？"],["莊署長人祥：當時我們就召開了應變會議，也……"],["林委員淑芬：應變會議是幾月幾日開？"],["莊署長人祥：15日。"],["林委員淑芬：15日當天就開。"],["莊署長人祥：當天也針對這個案子，因為他沒有一個主要的申訴……"],["林委員淑芬：他爆料之前都沒有投訴、沒有陳情，都沒有嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：完全沒有、完全沒有，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼人家沒有循正常管道？你們有沒有受不法侵害的正常SOP管道？人事行政總處有規定喔！你們有沒有訂出那個正常作業流程？"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，我們有一個員工職場霸凌的作業辦法，的確是有……"],["林委員淑芬：你們疾管署職場霸凌的人如果出問題，哪一個機關首長……就是你嘛！"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你要負責處理。"],["莊署長人祥：我負責。"],["林委員淑芬：都沒有人提出？"],["莊署長人祥：之前其實有另外一件，我們有按照那個程序去處理了。"],["林委員淑芬：投訴的是組長嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：不是、不是，是另外一件。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我15日就跟你們講了。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但是我們希望就是，你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告，你們私底下是這樣回答我們，要兩個月喔！雖然院長現在已經下令要一個禮拜內調查好，但我也不會苛責你多久時間，因為調查報告要呈現真實、客觀、不包庇才是最重要，而不是只是求急。我再請教你，你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員？"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，我們今天已經開始針對離職的部分個別致電，了解他們是不是願意受訪。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道這個問題是什麼嗎？因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部勞發署的署長，因為署長本人也被人家認為有霸凌，不是只有分署長，包括蔡孟良本人都有涉及霸凌，還有副署長想要降級請調出去的。署長回答我是說，他是家庭因素，不是因為被霸凌啦！這種話都講得出來，所以我們希望你的調查報告、你的訪談對象、你的整個作業要公開透明、客觀真實、真實反映，可以嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，這個事情我們就等你，因為這個不法侵害，對同仁的士氣打擊很大。","部長，我跟你請教我正規正辦的事情。今年年初，臺灣的環保團體「看守臺灣」公布了全球的調查報告，指出全球性環保組織「國際污染物消除網絡（IPEN）」在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫，總共檢測17個國家、119件食品包材樣本，有64個品項驗出PFAS，測出率高達54%，而植纖餐盒，我們一般覺得植物纖維餐盒好像很棒，但是偏偏植纖餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高，所以環保團體「看守臺灣」就把臺灣的採樣送到IPEN去檢驗，他送了17個，最後只有8個被檢驗，他們有篩選。8個品項受驗，有7個品項被測出含有PFAS，5件的TEOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準，6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準（50 ppm），換言之，8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的歐盟草案標準，PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計畫他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重。我現在要公布了，計畫包材分類說明檢測的結果，他們有公布在他們網頁，你們的署長有看過嗎？署長，你有去看過嗎？看守臺灣公布的品項，你有沒有看過？署長，沒有看過吼！"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我還沒有去看，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有看過，我跟你報告……"],["莊署長聲宏：但是PFAS這個我們會跟環境部合作進行源頭品項的……"],["林委員淑芬：來，我跟你講，我跟你報告，你沒看過，我跟你報告。防油紙袋，不要忘了臺灣人的第一餐從早餐開始，蔥油餅、蔥抓餅、餡餅、早餐袋、三明治都從防油紙袋開始的，摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋、Subway的餅乾紙袋、頂呱呱的薯條紙袋，以上3件都檢測出PFAS，而且前2件，就是摩斯的和Subway的，TOF都超出歐盟草案標準，而臺灣沒有標準，各位，臺灣沒有標準，所以它不算違法。各位，對食品安全最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準，沒有標準就不違規，都不用受罰。OK，這是防油紙袋。","接下來我講微波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋，聽好了，署長，不是說你明年1月65歲要退休就要走了，你要認真做，當一天和尚敲一天鐘喔！你的部長說你會繼續做，你要認真。微波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋，7-11賣的Jolly Time微波爆米花、好市多賣的Kirkland微波爆米花，兩件都檢測出PFAS，全部超出丹麥的TOF標準（20 ppm），有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準。接下來是IPEN報導的，植物纖維餐盒濃度最高，結果臺灣某容器生產商的植纖餐盒檢測出PFAS，它的含量是已經最寬鬆的歐盟草案標準的57倍。再來是再生紙包材，臺灣終於有一個法規還可以，臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的，也不能使用再生紙，所以這一類能收集到的、不跟食品直接接觸的，但是有風險的就是裝蛋的蛋盒。其中有兩個品項進行檢測，一個是全聯賣的「勤億是好機能蛋」，它的蛋盒檢測出PFAS，而主婦聯盟的「快樂主婦雞蛋」的蛋盒沒有檢出。部長知道PFAS的風險在哪裡嗎？部長，你有沒有聽過PFAS？它的風險在哪裡？大家已經沸沸揚揚說很久了，這幾年都在說PFAS，部長不知道，沒關係！雖然你是醫生，但是你可能不知道。這個議題很夯，不管從環境或是食品安全來講，大家討論的沸沸揚揚。"],["邱部長泰源：我知道最近都大家都有在談這個……"],["林委員淑芬：因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質，包括防油、防水、抗污，所以它很廣泛的在利用，包括衣服上也有，連鍋具、化學消防泡沫都有，還包括防水衣料、食品包材、一次性的杯具。臺灣人喝紅茶、中午吃的便當盒、裝披薩的披薩盒、速食店的包裝及小吃攤、路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS，農藥、相片、染劑、化妝品、保養品，以及我們在煮飯鍋具的塗層通通都有。你做衛福部部長如果不了解，確實比較不應該。"],["邱部長泰源：明年食藥署有一個計畫，我會請他們趕快……"],["林委員淑芬：現在立委來質詢了，才說明年有一個計畫。我跟你說，它是永久性的化學物質，不易被分解，是生物環境蓄積、累積性的毒物，可以遠距離的環境傳輸、具持久性，而且因為不斷累積、再累積，所以它有生物的放大性，對於陸生動物和海洋哺乳動物體內的危害及生物放大的危害非常嚴重。雖然有人去研究，光是北極熊在這麼單純的環境，早上沒有使用防油紙袋，北極熊也沒有每天喝好幾杯咖啡、紅茶，北極熊也沒有使用化妝品，也沒有暴露在那麼多的風險，都沒有！但是他們在北極熊身上檢測出PFOA的濃度，已經接近造成健康危害的暴露量。北極熊這樣就接近健康危害，我們要怎麼辦？大家每天吃便當、每天喝咖啡，怎麼辦？對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺，透過母體傳輸給胎兒，慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等，在這種狀況裡面，PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝讓人接觸，這個是很嚴重的，它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大。我不說這麼多了，我說的簡單一點，它在安全性的數據上，大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體，人體中的濃度以血液、肝臟、腎臟較高，短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除，長鏈的PFAS由糞便排除。對於人類，短鏈的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等；但是對於長鏈的PFAS，需要好幾年。","再來，關於飲用水裡面的PFAS濃度，因為我經常質詢環境部，他們今年8月預告飲用水水質標準終於要納管PFAS了，以確保飲用水水質安全和品質，而且今年年底就要完成公告。關於PFAS，你們的作為在哪裡？過去到現在，你們做了哪些事？"],["邱部長泰源：PFOA其實環境部已經禁用了……"],["林委員淑芬：因為PFAS是很多化合物的總稱。"],["邱部長泰源：國際間尚未訂有PFAS的……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，不要亂說！你再說清楚一點。"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有訂出限量……食品容器……但是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在只說食品容器，我唸給你聽，你說國際到現在都沒有人訂，我說給你聽。斯德哥爾摩公約在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其鹽類，因為PFAS是很多類總和的名稱，PFAS包含很多東西，而PFAS裡面的PFOS，它2009年就禁止了，2020年禁止使用PFOA，2022年起計畫要將PFHxS及其鹽類納入條約，而且在2023年要生效。2023（去）年1月，荷蘭、德國、丹麥、瑞典、挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案，而且這個生效以後將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS，它是全禁，但之前是禁了PFOS、PFOA、PFHxS，並不是沒有，而是沒有全禁而已。"],["邱部長泰源：環境部的確也禁了PFOA。"],["林委員淑芬：我在說你們。依照歐盟2023年3月的資料，歐盟執委會……"],["邱部長泰源：它禁了我們當然就不能用了。"],["林委員淑芬：歐盟是禁歐洲不能用，不是我們不能用！我們都本地生產、本地使用，我們毫無標準，連基礎調查都沒有。你們來這裡還敢說外國沒有，所以我們沒有。美國在6月，參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案，從今年開始，他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝。你現在還在跟我說，世界各國都沒人禁，你在「裝肖仔」！署長跟你說你就相信喔。美國今年開始就全都不能有含有PFAS的食品包裝，你不要講這麼多啦，我問你，你有沒有做過調查？至少環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查，所有飲用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫，他們在調查所有的水庫，已經做很久了！水庫沒有每天使用免洗紙餐盒，沒有用咖啡杯，也沒有用紙袋，結果他們抽樣發現水庫裡面的PFOA，37個樣品測值大於4奈克的占了74%；至於PFOS，13個樣品測值1公升大於4個奈克的，占抽樣26%。這是人家在測量水質，水還是從高山流下來的就這麼嚴重了！我們每天在吃的人要怎麼辦？","我最後問你，你們有沒有食品安全監測計畫？這幾年來有做過嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請莊署長回答一下。"],["林委員淑芬：當然也沒有，你什麼都不知道！"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們有做過相關的。"],["林委員淑芬：相關的，唸給我聽。"],["莊署長聲宏：食藥署曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFAS的含量調查，我們大概在114年還會再做一次。"],["林委員淑芬：你把調查報告給我看。相較於水質調查，臺灣有沒有做過PFAS的食品風險評估？"],["莊署長聲宏：112年有做過。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的調查報告叫什麼名字？我講風險評估，但剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告，這是兩件事！"],["莊署長聲宏：這個是叫食品中持久性有機污染物全氟烷基化合物之調查及風險評估。"],["林委員淑芬：好，調查報告送來，調查完成了喔。歐盟2022年發布了2022/1431規章，建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族，監測期間如果發現蔬果、蕈類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時，要進一步調查原因。請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上？如果你發現蔬果、蕈類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候，你要進一步調查為什麼，污染的風險來源是什麼，原因在哪裡，你們有沒有這樣子做？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們會在114年這個計畫中來做。"],["林委員淑芬：好。你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素劑包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究，你們剛剛講的是，你們研究的是這些持久性的化學物品對人的影響，我現在講的是臺灣各種食品安全監測的研究有沒有？沒有。你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的PFAS的風險評估有沒有？沒有，因為你們講的是檢驗方法、開發和精進研究，結果2022年做的要2025年才公布，2023年、2024年都有做，結果你們到2025、2026、2027年才要公布，你的期中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來，可以嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：期中報告喔，不是到final的。"],["莊署長聲宏：好，可以。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫，我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已，臺灣各種食品，臺灣環境裡面或是各種包裝，相關監測計畫要做長期、全面性的監測，你了解問題有多嚴重，才知道要怎麼管制和解決，你可以不做，但不做的前提是全部都管制，直接禁止使用，你有辦法嗎？部長，你如果沒有做監測計畫，不了解問題多嚴重，你比照美國全面禁用，可以嗎？PFAS有辦法全面禁用嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，食安是我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作，一定要把它做到最好，所以委員所提示、指教的，我們馬上來進行。"],["林委員淑芬：我是要問你，如果來不及的話不然就全部禁用，食品容器、食品包裝全部禁用PFAS，有辦法馬上全禁嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來研議。"],["林委員淑芬：研議喔，研議同時要做全面性的調查。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，保護國人的食品安全是我們最重要的責任。"],["林委員淑芬：各種食品包裝還有食物上的PFAS的風險。"],["邱部長泰源：好，都會包括，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}}