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00:00:54,113\n有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說\n\n3\n00:00:55,134 --> 00:01:14,876\n我其實呢最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為呢這個當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了\n\n4\n00:01:15,757 --> 00:01:20,719\n在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是減調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬\n\n5\n00:01:36,766 --> 00:01:58,535\n那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的這個民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再\n\n6\n00:02:01,056 --> 00:02:14,808\n一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?\n\n7\n00:02:16,578 --> 00:02:34,751\n謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去四倍化的\n\n8\n00:02:35,211 --> 00:02:56,128\n以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們再做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導\n\n9\n00:02:56,889 --> 00:03:23,630\n那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個\n\n10\n00:03:25,411 --> 00:03:49,368\n議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到\n\n11\n00:03:49,808 --> 00:04:09,965\n如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個\n\n12\n00:04:16,371 --> 00:04:32,264\n來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來\n\n13\n00:04:33,124 --> 00:04:58,815\n可以加強這方面的說明、宣導。」那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好謝謝委員好那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好那謝謝部長請回座\n\n14\n00:05:06,826 --> 00:05:27,589\n委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要\n\n15\n00:05:28,755 --> 00:05:53,723\n遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎\n\n16\n00:05:54,683 --> 00:05:59,445\n目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後\n\n17\n00:06:13,211 --> 00:06:21,719\n因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家\n\n18\n00:06:35,208 --> 00:06:43,874\n所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了\n\n19\n00:06:54,040 --> 00:07:08,877\n有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後\n\n20\n00:07:16,325 --> 00:07:34,973\n他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個\n\n21\n00:07:35,433 --> 00:08:03,556\n行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說\n\n22\n00:08:04,657 --> 00:08:28,469\n我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的是的是那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎\n\n23\n00:08:34,813 --> 00:08:44,264\n大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號\n\n24\n00:08:46,021 --> 00:09:09,394\n跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能\n\n25\n00:09:10,414 --> 00:09:29,060\n成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完\n\n26\n00:09:30,101 --> 00:09:46,058\n我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個\n\n27\n00:09:47,219 --> 00:10:06,126\n比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的\n\n28\n00:10:08,627 --> 00:10:24,469\n的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生\n\n29\n00:10:26,363 --> 00:10:53,208\n委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要\n\n30\n00:10:56,802 --> 00:11:23,276\n這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個\n\n31\n00:11:26,298 --> 00:11:49,787\n問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2910\t6173\t有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用人性貪婪的這種弱點所以常常都會有發生\n28931\t54113\t有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說\n55134\t74876\t我其實呢最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為呢這個當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了\n75757\t80719\t在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是減調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬\n96766\t118535\t那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的這個民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再\n121056\t134808\t一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?\n136578\t154751\t謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去四倍化的\n155211\t176128\t以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們再做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導\n176889\t203630\t那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個\n205411\t229368\t議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到\n229808\t249965\t如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個\n256371\t272264\t來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來\n273124\t298815\t可以加強這方面的說明、宣導。」那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好 謝謝委員好 那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好 那謝謝部長請回座\n306826\t327589\t委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要\n328755\t353723\t遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎\n354683\t359445\t目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後\n373211\t381719\t因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家\n395208\t403874\t所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了\n414040\t428877\t有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後\n436325\t454973\t他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個\n455433\t483556\t行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說\n484657\t508469\t我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的 是的是 那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎\n514813\t524264\t大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號\n526021\t549394\t跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能\n550414\t569060\t成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完\n570101\t586058\t我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個\n587219\t606126\t比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的\n608627\t624469\t的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生\n626363\t653208\t委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要\n656802\t683276\t這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個\n686298\t709787\t問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","txt":"有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用人性貪婪的這種弱點所以常常都會有發生\n有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說\n我其實呢最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為呢這個當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了\n在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是減調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬\n那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的這個民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再\n一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?\n謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去四倍化的\n以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們再做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導\n那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個\n議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到\n如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個\n來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來\n可以加強這方面的說明、宣導。」那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好 謝謝委員好 那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好 那謝謝部長請回座\n委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要\n遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎\n目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後\n因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家\n所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了\n有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後\n他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個\n行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說\n我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的 是的是 那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎\n大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號\n跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能\n成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完\n我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個\n比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的\n的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生\n委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要\n這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個\n問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.910 --> 00:06.173\n有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用人性貪婪的這種弱點所以常常都會有發生\n\n00:28.931 --> 00:54.113\n有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說\n\n00:55.134 --> 01:14.876\n我其實呢最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為呢這個當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了\n\n01:15.757 --> 01:20.719\n在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是減調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬\n\n01:36.766 --> 01:58.535\n那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的這個民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再\n\n02:01.056 --> 02:14.808\n一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?\n\n02:16.578 --> 02:34.751\n謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去四倍化的\n\n02:35.211 --> 02:56.128\n以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們再做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導\n\n02:56.889 --> 03:23.630\n那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個\n\n03:25.411 --> 03:49.368\n議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到\n\n03:49.808 --> 04:09.965\n如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個\n\n04:16.371 --> 04:32.264\n來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來\n\n04:33.124 --> 04:58.815\n可以加強這方面的說明、宣導。」那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好謝謝委員好那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好那謝謝部長請回座\n\n05:06.826 --> 05:27.589\n委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要\n\n05:28.755 --> 05:53.723\n遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎\n\n05:54.683 --> 05:59.445\n目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後\n\n06:13.211 --> 06:21.719\n因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家\n\n06:35.208 --> 06:43.874\n所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了\n\n06:54.040 --> 07:08.877\n有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後\n\n07:16.325 --> 07:34.973\n他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個\n\n07:35.433 --> 08:03.556\n行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說\n\n08:04.657 --> 08:28.469\n我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的是的是那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎\n\n08:34.813 --> 08:44.264\n大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號\n\n08:46.021 --> 09:09.394\n跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能\n\n09:10.414 --> 09:29.060\n成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完\n\n09:30.101 --> 09:46.058\n我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個\n\n09:47.219 --> 10:06.126\n比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的\n\n10:08.627 --> 10:24.469\n的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生\n\n10:26.363 --> 10:53.208\n委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要\n\n10:56.802 --> 11:23.276\n這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個\n\n11:26.298 --> 11:49.787\n問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.91,"end":6.173,"text":"有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用人性貪婪的這種弱點所以常常都會有發生"},{"start":28.931,"end":54.113,"text":"有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說"},{"start":55.134,"end":74.876,"text":"我其實呢最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為呢這個當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了"},{"start":75.757,"end":80.719,"text":"在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是減調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬"},{"start":96.766,"end":118.535,"text":"那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的這個民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再"},{"start":121.056,"end":134.808,"text":"一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?"},{"start":136.578,"end":154.751,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去四倍化的"},{"start":155.211,"end":176.128,"text":"以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們再做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導"},{"start":176.889,"end":203.63,"text":"那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個"},{"start":205.411,"end":229.368,"text":"議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到"},{"start":229.808,"end":249.965,"text":"如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個"},{"start":256.371,"end":272.264,"text":"來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來"},{"start":273.124,"end":298.815,"text":"可以加強這方面的說明、宣導。」那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好 謝謝委員好 那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好 那謝謝部長請回座"},{"start":306.826,"end":327.589,"text":"委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要"},{"start":328.755,"end":353.723,"text":"遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎"},{"start":354.683,"end":359.445,"text":"目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後"},{"start":373.211,"end":381.719,"text":"因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家"},{"start":395.208,"end":403.874,"text":"所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了"},{"start":414.04,"end":428.877,"text":"有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後"},{"start":436.325,"end":454.973,"text":"他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個"},{"start":455.433,"end":483.556,"text":"行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說"},{"start":484.657,"end":508.469,"text":"我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的 是的是 那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎"},{"start":514.813,"end":524.264,"text":"大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號"},{"start":526.021,"end":549.394,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能"},{"start":550.414,"end":569.06,"text":"成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完"},{"start":570.101,"end":586.058,"text":"我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個"},{"start":587.219,"end":606.126,"text":"比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的"},{"start":608.627,"end":624.469,"text":"的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生"},{"start":626.363,"end":653.208,"text":"委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要"},{"start":656.802,"end":683.276,"text":"這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個"},{"start":686.298,"end":709.787,"text":"問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1332,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時19分）有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長好。我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐詐騙的問題，我們知道臺灣的詐騙手法五花八門，很多都是利用人性貪婪的弱點，所以常常都會發生有人被詐騙。當然被詐騙的當事人自己本身也有責任，可是如果詐騙的手法是一再利用公部門的口號，或者是公部門的政策，然後因此而被詐騙，我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要做一些政策的檢討。首先，我想要講的就是我最近從司法院的裁判書裡面，就是用「偵查不公開」的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為當事人相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開，所以後來就被詐騙了。在113年就有136筆，其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團謊稱是檢調人員，告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講，因為偵查不公開，導致有些當事人就被詐騙，這10件的金額就高達一千多萬。其實很多的民眾上大概都常常會接到類似這樣的電話，尤其是高齡的民眾常常很容易就誤信自己帳戶是不是被凍結等等的情況，然後詐騙集團又告訴他這個事不能講，因為偵查不公開。所以我想請教部長，您對於這種詐騙集團一而再、再而三的利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段，這件事情您的看法是什麼？您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民誤信偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指教，我想冒充司法人員已經由來很久了，現在尤其如果以偵查不公開來欺騙這些老實人，對此我們用宣導面的，用個案去識別化的以偵查不公開的實際案例來做宣導。另外，我們希望各地檢的檢察官結合各主管的部會，我們到社區裡面，我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓，我們用去識別化的方式把實際的案例做一個宣導。基本上，我們在地方電視台或者是社區，利用任何一種甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導，我想可以比較有說服力，讓他們有警覺。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想要告訴部長的是，其實這些年來我們也有看到法務部有做一些媒體政策的宣導，編列一些相關的經費，可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的議題宣導，我覺得還是不夠，而且你們常常都會拿偵查不公開，其實有時候電視上就會看到以偵查不公開這樣的口號來恐嚇人民，而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開。這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的，尤其是這麼多年來，大部分的臺灣民眾如果接到詐騙集團假稱他是檢調人員，然後告訴民眾現在發生什麼問題，然後因為偵查不公開，不可以告訴警方，當事人很容易就相信了。由此可見法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的，是失敗的，而這個部分本席認為法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來澈底來告訴民眾，偵查不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的要求，而不是接到一通電話就讓人民相信了，這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來可以加強這方面的說明和宣導，同時不僅是在媒體上，在電視上或是網路上面可以有很多資訊，你們甚至可以做一些圖卡，來強調這方面的重要，就是警察和檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長，請回座。","接下來請數發部的代表，今天是副署長列席，副署長您好！"],["陳副署長慧敏：是，委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副署長您好！數發部這些年來有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防制及服務能量的登錄辦法，針對第三方業者必須要遵從洗錢防制法裡面所要求的法遵、聲明書等等，然後要進行一些能量的登錄。請問你們現在登錄的狀況如何？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們目前有64家業者。"],["翁委員曉玲：60家？"],["陳副署長慧敏：64家。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是你知道在商業司有登記多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有登錄的目前知道是有一萬三千多家，這是有登錄的，但是實際上因為必須要實名，就是要來跟我們登錄，然後我們會去查核，這樣才算是合法的，就是11月30日以後……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在有查核多少家呢？因為我看起來這個數字差別很大，在商業司登記的有一萬多家，可是實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家。"],["陳副署長慧敏：之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請，然後實際上我們經過查核了以後，我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這64家是完整登錄，已經取得了你們的認證？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過，這什麼意思？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息，然後提供給我們。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他們還是通過了，是不是還是通過了？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有條件通過。"],["翁委員曉玲：有條件通過，所以他們還是可以跟銀行講提供相關的登錄的能量證書，然後取得一個虛擬的帳號。"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是明明當時就是保留註銷條件，為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查？他們到底是合格還是不合格？他們符合你們作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：跟委員補充一下。這部分是因為現在有些新興行業還沒有能量登錄，所以現在我們跟銀行及金管會有做行政協助的部分，只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄，銀行就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶，可是有很多新興的科技行業希望進入到三支行業，所以他就來跟我們說，他這部分因為他現在沒有能量登錄，變成他沒有辦法申請虛擬帳戶，可是他有要配合的業者，就是說我們也要看他的實績。因此就變成一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的情況，所以委員您在網上會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件，就是我們要求他6個月之內要拿能量登錄去申請到虛擬帳號的時候，必須要在6個月之內做出實績，如果沒有辦法提出的話，我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格，大概是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你註銷掉他的資格之後，他已經取得的虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以現在還有幾家？你們剛剛說還有二十幾家，二十幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：現在目前大概十幾家。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是6個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行　為？因為他已經取得了虛擬帳號。"],["黃簡任視察國源：跟委員報告，之前有很多委員垂詢這個問題，所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄，在年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者，因為你還是給了他這個條件，他還是可以跟銀行去申請。"],["黃簡任視察國源：沒錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是他6個月之內要完成那個登錄，對不對？"],["黃簡任視察國源：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能成為詐騙集團的……"],["黃簡任視察國源：有，委員您擔心這個可能的這件事情，我們就是要透過現地查核的部分去查。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們多久查核一次？天天查？"],["黃簡任視察國源：我們幾乎每一、兩週都會排一次，我們現在就是64家都要在年底之前全部查完一遍。"],["翁委員曉玲：我還是講兩件事，一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的，一個是保留註銷條件，我要強調的是，看得出來現在數發部產業發展署跟經濟部或是金管會還沒有協調好一個比較好的作業方式，就是你們這邊要登錄完之後，然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向銀行端取得虛擬帳號，就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋、蛋生雞哪個先哪個後。"],["黃簡任視察國源：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是重要的是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後，他就有可能開始從事詐騙的情況，所以我認為在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況，應該還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬帳號，否則的話，就很容易有詐騙的事端發生。"],["陳副署長慧敏：委員好，針對委員提的這個部分，對於比較具有風險，比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分，我們回去會看是不是儘速納入強化檢查的部分，另外您提到的部分，我們還是會回去跟團隊做研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望你們在1個月還是2個星期之間要提出相關的檢討報告，尤其是檢討你們現在第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點。還有就是你們輔導業者，我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者，他都登記他要從事第三方支付，只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬帳號，可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情，還是極有可能他已經取得虛擬帳號，而且也都開始有詐騙的行為，所以這個問題本席認為是重要的，我們不希望數發部成為詐騙的幫助犯，你們要更積極的採取行動。另外這邊也請法務部要澈底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙，因誤信而被詐騙，所以也請你們要再做一個報告，謝謝。"],["陳副署長慧敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}}