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00:00:01,371\n主席有請顧部長來部長請是羅勇\n\n2\n00:00:10,808 --> 00:00:37,388\n是顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元\n\n3\n00:00:41,692 --> 00:00:59,449\n當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元\n\n4\n00:01:06,115 --> 00:01:10,257\n前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億\n\n5\n00:01:29,336 --> 00:01:51,315\n後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們\n\n6\n00:01:51,955 --> 00:02:08,315\n我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為\n\n7\n00:02:09,872 --> 00:02:10,593\n報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告\n\n8\n00:02:28,618 --> 00:02:38,266\n我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前\n\n9\n00:02:40,458 --> 00:02:59,831\n安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個\n\n10\n00:03:02,028 --> 00:03:29,265\n不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價\n\n11\n00:03:30,606 --> 00:03:36,271\n所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約\n\n12\n00:03:53,607 --> 00:04:17,859\n那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個\n\n13\n00:04:20,512 --> 00:04:30,782\n在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方\n\n14\n00:04:42,754 --> 00:04:42,874\n一而一之\n\n15\n00:05:13,803 --> 00:05:41,068\n報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來\n\n16\n00:05:42,930 --> 00:05:44,531\n我看到之前提供的資料\n\n17\n00:06:10,294 --> 00:06:10,474\n這部分要說明一下\n\n18\n00:06:30,138 --> 00:06:45,065\n臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長\n\n19\n00:06:46,786 --> 00:07:02,835\n主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛\n\n20\n00:07:07,518 --> 00:07:15,566\n主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購\n\n21\n00:07:30,422 --> 00:07:45,543\n事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分\n\n22\n00:07:47,545 --> 00:07:47,565\n韓國瑜議員\n\n23\n00:08:17,176 --> 00:08:17,356\n羅美玲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t1371\t主席有請顧部長來 部長請是 羅勇\n10808\t37388\t是 顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元\n41692\t59449\t當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元\n66115\t70257\t前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億\n89336\t111315\t後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們\n111955\t128315\t我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為\n129872\t130593\t報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告\n148618\t158266\t我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前\n160458\t179831\t安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個\n182028\t209265\t不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價\n210606\t216271\t所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約\n233607\t257859\t那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個\n260512\t270782\t在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方\n282754\t282874\t一而一之\n313803\t341068\t報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來\n342930\t344531\t我看到之前提供的資料\n370294\t370474\t這部分要說明一下\n390138\t405065\t臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長\n406786\t422835\t主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛\n427518\t435566\t主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購\n450422\t465543\t事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分\n467545\t467565\t韓國瑜議員\n497176\t497356\t羅美玲委員\n","txt":"主席有請顧部長來 部長請是 羅勇\n是 顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元\n當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元\n前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億\n後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們\n我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為\n報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告\n我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前\n安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個\n不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價\n所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約\n那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個\n在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方\n一而一之\n報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來\n我看到之前提供的資料\n這部分要說明一下\n臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長\n主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛\n主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購\n事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分\n韓國瑜議員\n羅美玲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:01.371\n主席有請顧部長來部長請是羅勇\n\n00:10.808 --> 00:37.388\n是顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元\n\n00:41.692 --> 00:59.449\n當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元\n\n01:06.115 --> 01:10.257\n前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億\n\n01:29.336 --> 01:51.315\n後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們\n\n01:51.955 --> 02:08.315\n我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為\n\n02:09.872 --> 02:10.593\n報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告\n\n02:28.618 --> 02:38.266\n我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前\n\n02:40.458 --> 02:59.831\n安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個\n\n03:02.028 --> 03:29.265\n不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價\n\n03:30.606 --> 03:36.271\n所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約\n\n03:53.607 --> 04:17.859\n那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個\n\n04:20.512 --> 04:30.782\n在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方\n\n04:42.754 --> 04:42.874\n一而一之\n\n05:13.803 --> 05:41.068\n報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來\n\n05:42.930 --> 05:44.531\n我看到之前提供的資料\n\n06:10.294 --> 06:10.474\n這部分要說明一下\n\n06:30.138 --> 06:45.065\n臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長\n\n06:46.786 --> 07:02.835\n主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛\n\n07:07.518 --> 07:15.566\n主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購\n\n07:30.422 --> 07:45.543\n事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分\n\n07:47.545 --> 07:47.565\n韓國瑜議員\n\n08:17.176 --> 08:17.356\n羅美玲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":1.371,"text":"主席有請顧部長來 部長請是 羅勇"},{"start":10.808,"end":37.388,"text":"是 顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元"},{"start":41.692,"end":59.449,"text":"當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元"},{"start":66.115,"end":70.257,"text":"前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億"},{"start":89.336,"end":111.315,"text":"後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們"},{"start":111.955,"end":128.315,"text":"我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為"},{"start":129.872,"end":130.593,"text":"報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告"},{"start":148.618,"end":158.266,"text":"我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前"},{"start":160.458,"end":179.831,"text":"安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個"},{"start":182.028,"end":209.265,"text":"不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價"},{"start":210.606,"end":216.271,"text":"所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約"},{"start":233.607,"end":257.859,"text":"那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個"},{"start":260.512,"end":270.782,"text":"在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方"},{"start":282.754,"end":282.874,"text":"一而一之"},{"start":313.803,"end":341.068,"text":"報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來"},{"start":342.93,"end":344.531,"text":"我看到之前提供的資料"},{"start":370.294,"end":370.474,"text":"這部分要說明一下"},{"start":390.138,"end":405.065,"text":"臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長"},{"start":406.786,"end":422.835,"text":"主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛"},{"start":427.518,"end":435.566,"text":"主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購"},{"start":450.422,"end":465.543,"text":"事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分"},{"start":467.545,"end":467.565,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":497.176,"end":497.356,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":73,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時13分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：顧部長，剛剛我聽到國防部專案報告裡面提到關於獵鴞專案，一開始我們是按照美方的初步報價，先行編列了六十多億元的預算，然後這個預算也在112年2月三讀通過；可是到了113年6月，美方在進行知會國會程序的時候，公告的金額是一百一十五億餘元。當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候，有沒有去反映怎麼會差距這麼大？因為這不是幾千萬，不是幾億，而是幾十億的差價，這部分我們當初有沒有去跟他們交涉？雖然後來在113年8月份的時候，它的發價書是55億元，可是這前前後後都是幾十億的落差。請問我們當初接到這個115億的公告的時候，有沒有任何反映說怎麼會差這麼多？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有的，我們原來取得的初步報價，就像剛剛委員所講的是六十億餘元，後來美國安合局在6月19號進行知會國會的時候，金額變成高達115億元，我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因……"],["羅委員美玲：當初原因是什麼，我在這個報告書裡面沒看到。"],["顧部長立雄：美方是表示，這個價格是綜合計算各項支出後一個最高的價格，仍有下調的空間，但是我們在編預算的時候，為了避免如果簽約金不足，跟為了預應後續預算的需求，我們就先啟動了整規書的修訂程序來……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，我想請教一下美方的說法。他說這是因為……美方的說法是什麼？為什麼會有這麼大的差異？因為我們有去詢問……"],["顧部長立雄：因為他們是綜合計算各項支出……"],["羅委員美玲：綜合計算？"],["顧部長立雄：請戰規司說明。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，戰規司司長黃文啓在這邊向委員報告。我們在建案時所獲得的初估報價，基本上只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價……"],["羅委員美玲：生產成本？"],["黃司長文啓：在知會國會前，安合局會針對這個案子所有的相關成本，包含通膨計價、未來的各項變動因素、專案管理費等等多項計算價格之後，去做最高的估價值。因為美方針對軍購一向採取不賺、不賠、不討價還價的原則，所以一定會把價格拉到最高。對這部分，我們後續也有向美方進行了解，看看廠商初估報價時是不是有高估的狀況，或有其他的因素，但美方並沒有針對這點做說明。"],["羅委員美玲：對，因為剛剛發生雷神案，所以外界會聯想這些公司會不會有向美國政府高額報價的問題存在。"],["黃司長文啓：這是他們的計算方式，不是只有單純的報價問題。"],["羅委員美玲：而且細節部分其實也沒有很清楚告知就是了？"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們後續同步跟美方爭取，希望與其他也要採購的國家共同議約，這樣能夠……因為會有研發價格，尤其ALTIUS-600是新的，所以會放入研發價格。如果能爭取到共同議約，採購數量大了以後，價格就會下降，另外，各項分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算，所以後來在9月份完成簽約前，美方在8月向我們提交正式發價書，那時候金額已經降到55億元。"],["羅委員美玲：因為差價太大了，幾十億！當初我們編列六十多億的預算，其實也是來自於美方的初步報價。後續他們在知會國會程序裡公告的金額又拉到115億，我們會覺得雖然都是來自美方，可是金額實在差距太大！所以會啟人疑竇，為什麼當中會有這麼大的差距？我本來想說今天在報告書會看到比較詳細的說明，但到目前為止，我們還是覺得一頭霧水。過去曾經發生過類似這樣子的問題嗎？過去在軍購時，有發生過金額差距這麼大的問題嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，過去知會國會價格高出我們原本預匡預算情況的還不少……"],["羅委員美玲：還不少？可是金額這麼大……"],["黃司長文啓：之前最有名是M1A2戰車的例子。當初我們編列的預算是405億，知會國會價格是600億，其他幾個案子也有類似狀況。但後續經與美方充分協調之後，我們都在合理的範圍內把價格談下來。"],["羅委員美玲：再來我想請教，這次獵鴞專案裡我們購入了685套的彈簧刀300跟291套的ALTIUS-600M，對不對？之前我有看到一些報導，也就是對彈簧刀300其實有很多疑慮。因為它的重量很輕，從之前你們所提供的資料來看，彈簧刀300因為重量很輕，以攻擊低防護、高價值的目標為主，之前有人講為什麼要買彈簧刀300？價格也不便宜，為什麼不在商用無人機上裝小型炸彈當作自殺機就可以了，而且經濟實惠？是這樣子嗎？這部分要說明一下嗎？到底彈簧刀300跟商用無人機差別在那裡？"],["顧部長立雄：我想分幾點跟委員報告，我們現在買的彈簧刀300是Blk20，比原來的Blk10來得更進一步一點，它的滯空時間比較長，而且主要是人員殺傷型的，還有散灑的碎片。如果這次大院能夠通過的話，我們要增購的主要不是300，我們主要要增購的是600反裝甲型的……"],["羅委員美玲：所以多出來的預算就是要增購600？可是彈簧刀300也買了685套，本來就是在計畫當中……"],["顧部長立雄：對……"],["羅委員美玲：之前大家一直看到一些評論說，彈簧刀300其實沒有什麼用，這部分可否加強說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：600的部分現在只有291套，按照兵推跟模式模擬結果來說，這291套是不夠的，所以我們認為應該還要再增購千架以上。至於這一次能有多少？我們再來跟美方洽談，看看每一架現在是多少，並在大院允許範圍內，我們再跟美方就彈簧刀600驗證在我們防衛作戰需求上反裝甲型……特別是反裝甲型無人機，我們再來洽談增購……"],["羅委員美玲：我理解你們要增加彈簧刀600的原因，這個我知道。目前這部分是即偵即攻，比起彈簧刀300，攻擊目標是比較大的……"],["顧部長立雄：滯空時間也比較久。"],["羅委員美玲：我剛才一直提到彈簧刀300，大家一直覺得好像買了也沒用，但我覺得你們對這部分沒有多做說明，所以甚至有人說商用無人機就可以代替了，為什麼要買彈簧刀300？我剛才的問題是在這裡，可是你們好像都沒有回答到這部分，我是提供機會讓你們回答，結果你一直在提600！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛本來要講的是，這部分我們也正在進行自製的研產過程，所以明年你可能就會看到我們有一定的成績出來。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳永康委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}}