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\"主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 551.533, \"end\": 552.053, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 552.053, \"end\": 552.594, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 552.594, \"end\": 553.334, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 553.334, \"end\": 553.674, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 553.674, \"end\": 553.954, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 553.954, \"end\": 554.154, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"兵\", \"start\": 554.154, \"end\": 554.294, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 554.294, \"end\": 554.535, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 554.535, \"end\": 554.815, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 554.815, \"end\": 554.955, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 554.955, \"end\": 555.215, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": 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649.304, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 649.304, \"end\": 649.324, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 649.324, \"end\": 649.424, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 649.424, \"end\": 649.444, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:04,651\n謝謝主席麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長參謀長是王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍軍售軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告\n\n2\n00:00:19,810 --> 00:00:37,504\n原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾\n\n3\n00:00:38,723 --> 00:01:06,816\n所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛\n\n4\n00:01:07,813 --> 00:01:08,093\n我為什麼要提這一點?\n\n5\n00:01:32,455 --> 00:02:00,123\n就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢\n\n6\n00:02:01,328 --> 00:02:25,790\n我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價\n\n7\n00:02:27,895 --> 00:02:51,944\n國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師\n\n8\n00:02:54,262 --> 00:03:22,442\n報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務\n\n9\n00:03:23,823 --> 00:03:52,710\n商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分\n\n10\n00:03:53,868 --> 00:04:17,514\n那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊\n\n11\n00:04:18,699 --> 00:04:38,073\n暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫\n\n12\n00:04:39,494 --> 00:05:01,819\n另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個\n\n13\n00:05:03,039 --> 00:05:19,153\n國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊\n\n14\n00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:37,313\n陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到\n\n15\n00:05:38,193 --> 00:05:52,059\n我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是\n\n16\n00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:21,634\n預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話\n\n17\n00:06:22,954 --> 00:06:42,304\n這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明\n\n18\n00:06:46,926 --> 00:07:11,795\n事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長\n\n19\n00:07:13,936 --> 00:07:33,688\n這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準\n\n20\n00:07:34,248 --> 00:08:02,820\n對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的\n\n21\n00:08:04,460 --> 00:08:28,031\n數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下\n\n22\n00:08:28,971 --> 00:08:29,351\n2.志願役士兵\n\n23\n00:08:44,307 --> 00:09:09,609\n擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開\n\n24\n00:09:11,533 --> 00:09:29,142\n主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法\n\n25\n00:09:30,041 --> 00:09:59,221\n有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部\n\n26\n00:10:00,521 --> 00:10:12,288\n不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折\n\n27\n00:10:13,626 --> 00:10:14,767\n跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個\n\n28\n00:10:31,806 --> 00:10:35,289\n有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個\n\n29\n00:10:49,124 --> 00:10:49,444\n謝謝王定宇專委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t4651\t謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍 軍售 軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告\n19810\t37504\t原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾\n38723\t66816\t所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛\n67813\t68093\t我為什麼要提這一點?\n92455\t120123\t就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢\n121328\t145790\t我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價\n147895\t171944\t國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師\n174262\t202442\t報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務\n203823\t232710\t商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分\n233868\t257514\t那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊\n258699\t278073\t暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫\n279494\t301819\t另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個\n303039\t319153\t國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊\n321876\t337313\t陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到\n338193\t352059\t我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是\n354760\t381634\t預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話\n382954\t402304\t這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明\n406926\t431795\t事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長\n433936\t453688\t這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準\n454248\t482820\t對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的\n484460\t508031\t數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下\n508971\t509351\t2.志願役士兵\n524307\t549609\t擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開\n551533\t569142\t主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法\n570041\t599221\t有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部\n600521\t612288\t不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折\n613626\t614767\t跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個\n631806\t635289\t有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個\n649124\t649444\t謝謝王定宇專委\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍 軍售 軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告\n原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾\n所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛\n我為什麼要提這一點?\n就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢\n我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價\n國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師\n報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務\n商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分\n那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊\n暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫\n另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個\n國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊\n陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到\n我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是\n預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話\n這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明\n事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長\n這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準\n對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的\n數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下\n2.志願役士兵\n擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開\n主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法\n有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部\n不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折\n跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個\n有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個\n謝謝王定宇專委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:04.651\n謝謝主席麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長參謀長是王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍軍售軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告\n\n00:19.810 --> 00:37.504\n原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾\n\n00:38.723 --> 01:06.816\n所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛\n\n01:07.813 --> 01:08.093\n我為什麼要提這一點?\n\n01:32.455 --> 02:00.123\n就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢\n\n02:01.328 --> 02:25.790\n我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價\n\n02:27.895 --> 02:51.944\n國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師\n\n02:54.262 --> 03:22.442\n報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務\n\n03:23.823 --> 03:52.710\n商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分\n\n03:53.868 --> 04:17.514\n那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊\n\n04:18.699 --> 04:38.073\n暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫\n\n04:39.494 --> 05:01.819\n另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個\n\n05:03.039 --> 05:19.153\n國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊\n\n05:21.876 --> 05:37.313\n陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到\n\n05:38.193 --> 05:52.059\n我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是\n\n05:54.760 --> 06:21.634\n預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話\n\n06:22.954 --> 06:42.304\n這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明\n\n06:46.926 --> 07:11.795\n事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長\n\n07:13.936 --> 07:33.688\n這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準\n\n07:34.248 --> 08:02.820\n對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的\n\n08:04.460 --> 08:28.031\n數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下\n\n08:28.971 --> 08:29.351\n2.志願役士兵\n\n08:44.307 --> 09:09.609\n擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開\n\n09:11.533 --> 09:29.142\n主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法\n\n09:30.041 --> 09:59.221\n有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部\n\n10:00.521 --> 10:12.288\n不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折\n\n10:13.626 --> 10:14.767\n跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個\n\n10:31.806 --> 10:35.289\n有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個\n\n10:49.124 --> 10:49.444\n謝謝王定宇專委\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":4.651,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍 軍售 軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告"},{"start":19.81,"end":37.504,"text":"原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾"},{"start":38.723,"end":66.816,"text":"所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛"},{"start":67.813,"end":68.093,"text":"我為什麼要提這一點?"},{"start":92.455,"end":120.123,"text":"就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢"},{"start":121.328,"end":145.79,"text":"我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價"},{"start":147.895,"end":171.944,"text":"國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師"},{"start":174.262,"end":202.442,"text":"報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務"},{"start":203.823,"end":232.71,"text":"商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分"},{"start":233.868,"end":257.514,"text":"那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊"},{"start":258.699,"end":278.073,"text":"暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫"},{"start":279.494,"end":301.819,"text":"另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個"},{"start":303.039,"end":319.153,"text":"國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊"},{"start":321.876,"end":337.313,"text":"陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到"},{"start":338.193,"end":352.059,"text":"我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是"},{"start":354.76,"end":381.634,"text":"預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話"},{"start":382.954,"end":402.304,"text":"這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明"},{"start":406.926,"end":431.795,"text":"事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長"},{"start":433.936,"end":453.688,"text":"這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準"},{"start":454.248,"end":482.82,"text":"對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的"},{"start":484.46,"end":508.031,"text":"數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下"},{"start":508.971,"end":509.351,"text":"2.志願役士兵"},{"start":524.307,"end":549.609,"text":"擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開"},{"start":551.533,"end":569.142,"text":"主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法"},{"start":570.041,"end":599.221,"text":"有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部"},{"start":600.521,"end":612.288,"text":"不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折"},{"start":613.626,"end":614.767,"text":"跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個"},{"start":631.806,"end":635.289,"text":"有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個"},{"start":649.124,"end":649.444,"text":"謝謝王定宇專委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":126,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長。"],["主席：顧部長、參謀長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案？"],["顧部長立雄：軍售。"],["王委員定宇：軍售案嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為我剛才看了一下你的報告，原始報價是向國會報的初步報價，後來確認要買的數量之後，軍種跟美國的國防部去核實議價的時候，價格降下來，但這個差別的比例相當高，差了將近百分之四十幾。我們一般在軍售案裡面，從發價、核價，到audit（稽核），都是美國軍方負責，但目前為止，之前的愛國者案、雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案，我們國人必須了解，軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一，我們如果採商售的話，核價、詢價、議價大概是我方要負責，稽核也是我方要負責嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：商售的部分，我想我們會慎重，因為我們都是複式的來源，所以我們會就這個複式來源來做比價，還有跟這些來源的性能等等，我們想我們應該會……"],["王委員定宇：因為一樣的型號有商規跟軍規，那個價格就天差地遠。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我為什麼要提這一點，就算是軍售案，當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度，他們的稽核人員編制也比我們大太多，但是一件、兩件、三件這樣的情形下，面對軍售案的時候我們是買方，對於價格的核定跟事後的稽核，我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課，也就是不是他講多少就多少，否則這一次他降了，萬一他沒降呢？我們就變多花了百分之四十幾的價格去買一樣的裝備，你懂我意思嗎？這一次當然美方誠實的去稽核、核實價格，表示這個機制還是有效，但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效，有些東西還是要掌握在我方。","商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責，我們自己要就各方來源去比價，在軍售案，美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價，國會核可我們真的要買的數量的時候，他們的國防部以及軍種會提出來，這時候價格就會接近買價。所以我第一個建議是，我們部裡面或者戰規司要不要思考，我們對美方的軍售案，有關這些價格，我們至少要去監控它、要去審核它，我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["顧部長立雄：我想是不是先請戰規司？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，在過去，針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P＆A，也就是報價書或是初步報價為主，但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案，尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子，我們也已經跟美方達成共識，針對未來重要軍售案我們會提前做價格的預審，去了解目前一般的價格是多少，去精進價格的實務。"],["王委員定宇：商售你們都會去做這些功課，我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情，我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況，因為軍購案動輒都是幾十億的差額，影響的預算數很大，我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理，這裡面都是民脂民膏，我們希望用在對的地方。","第二個部分，現在有差價了，到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置？使用單位，也就是陸軍這邊要有一個數量的依據，我到底有多少戰力、這些有多少人要用、我要訓練多少人？不是說現在錢多出來了，我就多買500套，多500套要有500套的人，戰力的分布要在哪裡？我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到，就是說，今天你們這個報告案，我們國會面對兩個選擇，要嘛就是請你們照原數額買，因為原數額是經過戰力評估、相關的評估去購買的，多餘的費用我們就繳庫。另外一種情形是，既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了，你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說，我們原來就是錢不夠，所以才買了一半，後面要增加買。這個要很科學地告訴我們，而不是多多益善，部長，這邊請回答。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個，據我了解，本來這個案就不是只要買這樣的數量，我們只是依照國家財政的裕度先購買了這樣的量，這是第一點。第二點，我們還要再進行所謂的模式模擬，我們會對於整個作戰防衛的構想所需要的……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為你們今天這一塊，像陳永康將軍是有經驗的人，比方說，原來我評估要買1,000枚，因為國家財政，我只買300枚，現在價格打六折了，我可以把原來1,000枚要達標的，我可以增加，這個也許可以說服委員，但這一塊我們今天沒有看到。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分會後我們再提供一個詳細的……"],["王委員定宇：因為牽涉到今天報告案報告完這個預算的處理，我請部長思考看看，是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後，預算的部分我們再來處理？就是說我們可以一次處理，但是如果說明不清楚，容易導致……因為我原來可能要買這麼多，第一階段買多少，這牽涉到戰力的規劃，也許是機密，可是要讓國防委員知道。現在因為價格壓低了，我要增加數量，是在原規劃裡面，那個戰力規劃是什麼，我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據。所以如果部長同意的話，這個部分我們是不是今天把報告案報告完，但是後續這個預算是繳回還是增購，是不是請國防部所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明，否則今天處理的話，我認為在判斷的依據上，我沒辦法有科學的依據。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，謝謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明。事實上也如委員剛剛的指導，我們並不是因為有與預算上面編列的差價60億才要去把它買足、買齊，而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛作戰的需求，也完成了各式的武器、部隊的編裝，乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃，其中也包含到配付和編裝的調修，這都是整體的規劃……"],["王委員定宇：參謀長，這一塊，因為我時間的關係，我覺得應該要說明得更清楚……"],["陳參謀長建義：是，我們會下去跟委員說明跟報告。"],["王委員定宇：因為你原來規劃買這些，搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀的東西，因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛！就是說，這筆錢多出來了是好事，總比不夠好，但多出來要怎麼用？可能要一個充分的說明，我們再來處理可能會比較精準。"],["顧部長立雄：對，這一點因為有涉及一些我們相關的評估細項……"],["王委員定宇：因為我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密，我不會在那邊請你回答，我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚，大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對使用單位，就是軍種最有效的辦法，我們今天就先把報告案報告完，然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明。"],["顧部長立雄：我們再跟每個委員做一個詳細的說明。"],["王委員定宇：這個我要用我的質詢時間講，因為這不是我主席該講的，但我作為一個委員要看這些預算，我認為你們目前提供的數據還沒辦法完整地說服我，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來，我快速地問下一題，這題我其實想問很久了。我認為我們現在編現比有三個病徵，我很快速地講一下，第一個，根據國軍近5年的軍官、士官、士兵的編現比，其實平均值都往下降，尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下。第二個病徵是什麼？就是我們的主戰部隊，志願役士兵不適服的比例偏高，每4個就有1個幾乎要提早離開或者不留了。第三個，擔任基層非常重要幹部，就是軍校生，你看我整理的第3張表，軍校生從2020年到2024年，任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400人一直增加到1,037人，這些人可能是都排長，可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等。基層幹部大量地提早離開，主戰部隊的志願役士兵每4個就有1個離開，然後編現比幾乎都發生在主戰部隊，像戰車、砲兵等等，它的編現比都低於八成以下。這三個問題，我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法？"],["顧部長立雄：有，現在正在擬議中的就是，軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的調升，另外，有關提高待遇的部分，我們會針對相關編現比比較低的，還有一些專業的部分，我們會做一個……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為我時間超過了，我建議說，除了薪資報酬以外，應該還有其他像是就業環境的因素，可能要一併考量。第二個，我要提醒國防部，不能為了增加編現比，比方說，我看最近有提到要放寬不適服的回來，我不是反對，我的意思是，體能、品德、能力這三個不能打折，不適服有很多種樣態，不適服有品德問題的、有家庭因素的、有個人生涯規劃的、有身體不行的，所以針對不適服可以回任，我會建議國防部不要一句話說不適服5年內都可以回來……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們不適服的只限於陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例第十五條第一項第十款，那個第十款講的是指他自己申請提前退役，而沒有任何品德操守的問題，就是我們只限於……"],["王委員定宇：對，就是說有些不能打折，有些是因為家庭就只有這個孩子……"],["顧部長立雄：它很多款，我們只限於那一款。"],["王委員定宇：這個要清楚啦！"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們只限於那一款，就是他可能因為經濟的因素或家庭的因素，我們只限於那一款，然後我們甄選的標準一樣，要軍士官兵都要按照他年齡的條件、體能的條件，還有品德沒有任何的問題。"],["王委員定宇：OK，這個題目我們會再繼續追蹤，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委。","請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}}