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{\"start\": 84.684, \"end\": 85.084, \"text\": \"這一點大家必須要了解\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 84.684, \"end\": 84.704, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 84.704, \"end\": 84.724, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 84.724, \"end\": 84.904, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 84.904, \"end\": 85.024, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 85.024, \"end\": 85.044, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 85.044, \"end\": 85.064, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 85.064, \"end\": 85.084, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 112.31, \"end\": 115.712, \"text\": \"再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 112.31, \"end\": 112.57, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 112.57, \"end\": 112.71, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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{\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 114.892, \"end\": 115.032, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 115.032, \"end\": 115.052, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 115.052, \"end\": 115.072, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 115.072, \"end\": 115.192, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 115.192, \"end\": 115.272, \"score\": 0.351}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 115.272, \"end\": 115.292, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 115.292, \"end\": 115.312, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 115.312, \"end\": 115.432, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 115.432, \"end\": 115.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 115.452, \"end\": 115.472, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 115.472, \"end\": 115.492, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 115.492, \"end\": 115.512, 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"巧\", \"start\": 619.125, \"end\": 619.185, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"芯\", \"start\": 619.185, \"end\": 619.305, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 619.305, \"end\": 619.325, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,311 --> 00:00:01,659\n謝謝主席我們請郭部長來部長請\n\n2\n00:00:05,675 --> 00:00:34,295\n首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法\n\n3\n00:00:34,995 --> 00:00:54,605\n那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好\n\n4\n00:01:01,135 --> 00:01:01,455\n主席主席\n\n5\n00:01:24,684 --> 00:01:25,084\n這一點大家必須要了解\n\n6\n00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:55,712\n再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億\n\n7\n00:02:17,205 --> 00:02:24,569\n那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談\n\n8\n00:02:42,418 --> 00:02:55,771\n所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方\n\n9\n00:02:57,090 --> 00:03:11,102\n跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為\n\n10\n00:03:24,833 --> 00:03:48,435\n我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著\n\n11\n00:03:48,715 --> 00:03:48,895\n李卓人議員\n\n12\n00:04:09,838 --> 00:04:28,530\n要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢\n\n13\n00:04:30,771 --> 00:04:44,897\n而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢\n\n14\n00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:05,550\n我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行\n\n15\n00:05:13,097 --> 00:05:14,178\n徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：\n\n16\n00:05:33,777 --> 00:05:58,414\n我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成\n\n17\n00:06:00,099 --> 00:06:11,088\n海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?\n\n18\n00:06:23,582 --> 00:06:29,944\n那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:45,530 --> 00:07:01,283\n現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成\n\n20\n00:07:05,874 --> 00:07:32,816\n所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年\n\n21\n00:07:34,083 --> 00:07:50,517\n報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節\n\n22\n00:07:53,099 --> 00:08:18,626\n現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢\n\n23\n00:08:19,386 --> 00:08:44,552\n我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢\n\n24\n00:08:46,652 --> 00:09:13,997\n像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編\n\n25\n00:09:15,077 --> 00:09:35,765\n一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整\n\n26\n00:09:36,445 --> 00:09:37,745\n但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?\n\n27\n00:10:04,593 --> 00:10:14,842\n您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。\n\n28\n00:10:19,105 --> 00:10:19,325\n徐巧芯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n311\t1659\t謝謝主席 我們請郭部長來 部長請\n5675\t34295\t首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法\n34995\t54605\t那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好\n61135\t61455\t主席主席\n84684\t85084\t這一點大家必須要了解\n112310\t115712\t再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億\n137205\t144569\t那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談\n162418\t175771\t所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方\n177090\t191102\t跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為\n204833\t228435\t我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著\n228715\t228895\t李卓人議員\n249838\t268530\t要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢\n270771\t284897\t而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢\n294520\t305550\t我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行\n313097\t314178\t徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：\n333777\t358414\t我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成\n360099\t371088\t海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?\n383582\t389944\t那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?\n405530\t421283\t現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成\n425874\t452816\t所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年\n454083\t470517\t報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節\n473099\t498626\t現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢\n499386\t524552\t我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢\n526652\t553997\t像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編\n555077\t575765\t一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整\n576445\t577745\t但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?\n604593\t614842\t您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。\n619105\t619325\t徐巧芯委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請郭部長來 部長請\n首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法\n那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好\n主席主席\n這一點大家必須要了解\n再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億\n那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談\n所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方\n跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為\n我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著\n李卓人議員\n要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢\n而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢\n我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行\n徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：\n我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成\n海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?\n那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?\n現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成\n所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年\n報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節\n現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢\n我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢\n像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編\n一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整\n但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?\n您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。\n徐巧芯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.311 --> 00:01.659\n謝謝主席我們請郭部長來部長請\n\n00:05.675 --> 00:34.295\n首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法\n\n00:34.995 --> 00:54.605\n那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好\n\n01:01.135 --> 01:01.455\n主席主席\n\n01:24.684 --> 01:25.084\n這一點大家必須要了解\n\n01:52.310 --> 01:55.712\n再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億\n\n02:17.205 --> 02:24.569\n那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談\n\n02:42.418 --> 02:55.771\n所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方\n\n02:57.090 --> 03:11.102\n跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為\n\n03:24.833 --> 03:48.435\n我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著\n\n03:48.715 --> 03:48.895\n李卓人議員\n\n04:09.838 --> 04:28.530\n要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢\n\n04:30.771 --> 04:44.897\n而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢\n\n04:54.520 --> 05:05.550\n我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行\n\n05:13.097 --> 05:14.178\n徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：\n\n05:33.777 --> 05:58.414\n我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成\n\n06:00.099 --> 06:11.088\n海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?\n\n06:23.582 --> 06:29.944\n那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?\n\n06:45.530 --> 07:01.283\n現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成\n\n07:05.874 --> 07:32.816\n所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年\n\n07:34.083 --> 07:50.517\n報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節\n\n07:53.099 --> 08:18.626\n現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢\n\n08:19.386 --> 08:44.552\n我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢\n\n08:46.652 --> 09:13.997\n像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編\n\n09:15.077 --> 09:35.765\n一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整\n\n09:36.445 --> 09:37.745\n但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?\n\n10:04.593 --> 10:14.842\n您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。\n\n10:19.105 --> 10:19.325\n徐巧芯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.311,"end":1.659,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請郭部長來 部長請"},{"start":5.675,"end":34.295,"text":"首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法"},{"start":34.995,"end":54.605,"text":"那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好"},{"start":61.135,"end":61.455,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":84.684,"end":85.084,"text":"這一點大家必須要了解"},{"start":112.31,"end":115.712,"text":"再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億"},{"start":137.205,"end":144.569,"text":"那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談"},{"start":162.418,"end":175.771,"text":"所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方"},{"start":177.09,"end":191.102,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為"},{"start":204.833,"end":228.435,"text":"我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著"},{"start":228.715,"end":228.895,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":249.838,"end":268.53,"text":"要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢"},{"start":270.771,"end":284.897,"text":"而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢"},{"start":294.52,"end":305.55,"text":"我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行"},{"start":313.097,"end":314.178,"text":"徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯："},{"start":333.777,"end":358.414,"text":"我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成"},{"start":360.099,"end":371.088,"text":"海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?"},{"start":383.582,"end":389.944,"text":"那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?"},{"start":405.53,"end":421.283,"text":"現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成"},{"start":425.874,"end":452.816,"text":"所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年"},{"start":454.083,"end":470.517,"text":"報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節"},{"start":473.099,"end":498.626,"text":"現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢"},{"start":499.386,"end":524.552,"text":"我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢"},{"start":526.652,"end":553.997,"text":"像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編"},{"start":555.077,"end":575.765,"text":"一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整"},{"start":576.445,"end":577.745,"text":"但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?"},{"start":604.593,"end":614.842,"text":"您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。"},{"start":619.105,"end":619.325,"text":"徐巧芯委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時42分）謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：部長請。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先我要先講一下，主席剛才在最一開始開會的時候有講到，如果今天報告確認後，可行性預算是可以直接認可的，但我們在建案的時候，包含價格、採購數量不一，還有剛才幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部提出很多疑慮，所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題，應該要重新建案，先表達我個人的看法。","首先我要問的問題是，顧部長，你知道在113年中央政府總預算暨附屬單位預算案的半年查核報告裡面，你們上半年度執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，儘快好不好？時間非常有限，我們後面還有很多問題。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長。有關113年度上半年的半年決算大概有62項重要的軍事投資計畫執行未……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有62項，你講的是上半年度未分配預算有62項，占了26%。那上半年預算執行率沒有達到90%的有49項，占了21%，也就是說，以上半年來說，你們去年跟立法院要了錢，但是卻有一半的項目執行得不確實，也就是說，預算如果通過了，那就沒有辦法接受監督，你不斷落後的情況也會影響到我們今年在審查預算時的想法，這一點大家必須要了解。","再來就是我們今天討論獵鴞專案的部分，第一個問題是，今天差了60億的差價，這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過了，我就不再重提，首先外界會先去質疑的是，是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格？不然怎麼會我們113年的時候編了60億，今年6月公告是115億，我們也同意補編列55億的情況之下，又減到55億，等於說少了60億，這個情形當然會讓大家覺得，是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億臺幣可以買到的東西，只是美國國會公告之後，我們沒有向美方針對這個專案管理去好好地洽談？所以我第二個問題要問的是說，你們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面，我方是否有評估獵鴞專案的單價是否合理？我方，不是美方。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一點，就是您剛剛問的國防整體預算執行率至10月底止會到91.4%，軍事投資的部分會到92.5%，預判到年底會達94.8%，我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況。有關於獵鴞專案的部分，當時知會國會的價格提出115億的時候，我們確實是有疑問的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有疑問？"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是我們為了不讓這個……因為他知會國會的金額已經到達這個金額，我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億這樣子的價格來編，萬一預算不足的話，這個建案就會構成……"],["徐委員巧芯：我了解你的意思，如果你們自己都覺得有疑慮，但你們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通，而是照單全收，別人降價才跟著走。今天如果美方他們沒有，可能經過雷神的事情，然後大家重新去檢視這些狀況，沒有下修這個金額的話，那我們不就變「盤子」多花60億嗎？這件事情是讓大家覺得不能接受的地方啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛已經跟委員報告，就是我們事實上在他知會國會之後，我們就持續跟美方洽商，要求美方具體說明價差的原因。"],["徐委員巧芯：了解，降了60億之後，基本上就省下了這60億，為什麼你們不是直接把這個錢另外建案去買其他的東西，而是要在這預算裡面就直接往後加呢？因為如果你這樣做的話，我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢？而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的，一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型，更符合臺灣的戰略想定，那省下來的錢也可以繼續買別的，為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續增購……這個我就不細講了，怕涉及國防機密，就直接再去增購相關的武器呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想ALTIUS-600事實上就是一個最新型的無人機，它的滯空時間相當久，對於裝甲型武器的反制相當的高……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，這個我了解，你們都報告過。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在對這一款攻擊性無人機，我們認為我們現在進行這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求嘛！對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：有，我們有這樣的需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求，然後你們也報了。"],["顧部長立雄：希望大院能夠支持。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求，你們當時也報了單價，也報了數量，國會這邊也給了支持，所以你們既然當時報的數量是這樣子的、價格是這樣子的，那你們突然現在等於又要繼續多買，那我的看法就是，我覺得你們只要重新建案的話，我們百分之百會支持，沒有人要說我們臺灣不用無人機，只是現在這個方式我們很難接受。","再來，我要特別來問的是，我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型艦目前的進度是正在進行泊港測試，缺失改善的情形跟泊港測試什麼時候會全部完成？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，海軍參謀長補充一下，目前我們測試的進度大概83%到85%。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說HAT的部分？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對，HAT，預計是在3月下旬……"],["徐委員巧芯：海上測試什麼時候會開始執行？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：4月1號會開始執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：4月1號會執行，所以目前泊港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前還在繼續持續地做，因為它改善的這個部分大概……"],["徐委員巧芯：你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們現在第一個節點會在1月中……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是判斷而已嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，1月中以前會做缺失的一個節點管制，3月底前完成……"],["徐委員巧芯：節點的管制如果又有延宕的話，你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前都是正常。"],["徐委員巧芯：目前是正常的，但是如果4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕，這是有可能發生的情況，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前看不到會有這個發生，目前還在……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那開始SAT（海上測試）之後，你們預計要花多少時間？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：預計從4月1號到9月30號之間完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們在什麼時候會交艦？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：交艦在11月。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們交艦有沒有延期的可能性？還是你現在告訴我11月絕對交艦，不會延到明年？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前還在裕度內，目前這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我要問的不是目前嘛！我問的是你們現在評估是這樣，那麼你現在要跟我保證今年一定會交艦，哪怕是12月，不會延到明年。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，就目前的狀況是可以明年11月份交艦。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為是這樣子，在我們現在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面，2016年開始潛艦國造第一、第二階段，一艘就做了8年，那你們對外也都沒有公開說明原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節，現在要一次編列預算到127年，而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量，那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性，明年只會用到出席簽約，甚至不需要20億這麼多，為什麼要多編這麼多預算？","主席，我把它講完，他們簡單一次答復。","所以我可以接受你們今年先編2艘或3艘的潛艦建案，但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編7艘，今年才114年，你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年，等於是十幾年的預算，我現在35歲，你做好我已經要50歲啦，7艘做好，你們現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦！所以像這樣子，我們看獵鴞專案都知道了，有任何異狀的時候，多編出來的預算如果可以拿去做別的事情，這樣的預算完全不合理。再加上審計部目前對於國防部上半年的查核報告也認為是有進度落後、效率不彰的問題，所以我的具體建議是，你們可以分階段來建案，如果分階段建案的話，我個人會完全支持，但如果說你要一次性的編到127年，從現在開始一次性的編7艘，那我覺得到時候萬一，比如說在125年的時候出了任何的問題，那我們現在來編列預算的這些委員很難跟全民交代，所以是否可以請部長考慮一下在編列預算上面的合理性，做一些調整？"],["主席：部長，請摘要回答。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，我們一定會等海上測試通過以後，才會動用所編列的任何一分錢，如果海上測試沒有通過，我們不會動用任何一毛錢，這是第一點。第二點，後續相關預算的編列每年都還是會送大院來審查，所以應該是不會有……"],["徐委員巧芯：但你做到一半的時候，我很難給你叫停。"],["顧部長立雄：您講的就是說，因為你也同意後續艦嘛？"],["徐委員巧芯：我同意、我同意。"],["顧部長立雄：你也同意後續艦，所以我們也看原型艦做的結果怎麼樣，那我們一定會分年來編列一個確實的預算，然後送大院來審議相關的預算需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝，我再一次建議，你們以2艘、3艘、2艘，或3艘、2艘、2艘的方式來編，這樣會比較合理，我們也比較好審查，我們也能夠來支持，但是這樣子127年一次編了十幾年的方式，我們在預算審查上面會有難度，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，它其實還是2、3、2這樣編啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。但是……"],["主席：另外，我們現在委員都有在這裡，我們今天就先處理報告的部分，因為剛才多位委員包含本席，認為預算多出來的部分到底該怎麼使用，沒有一個完整的說明，是要繳庫繳回來，還是要增加採購量，這些都要有一個依據，所以我們今天先就這個獵鴞專案進行報告，今天就不處理預算數的部分，先跟各位做說明。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}}