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552.783, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 552.783, \"end\": 552.803, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 571.164, \"end\": 571.184, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:00,571\n國防部長\n\n2\n00:00:08,878 --> 00:00:32,328\n部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局\n\n3\n00:00:33,749 --> 00:00:41,272\n通知國會的這個部分是115億然後接下來我們再發價出是55億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在\n\n4\n00:00:59,781 --> 00:01:03,202\n在112年建案就有了部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份\n\n5\n00:01:28,868 --> 00:01:32,330\n第一,如果急需,我們所有都急需,現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎?然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,723\n如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊\n\n7\n00:02:16,798 --> 00:02:31,247\n我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約\n\n8\n00:02:39,878 --> 00:02:40,979\n報告員相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前\n\n9\n00:02:52,950 --> 00:02:54,771\n大院已經核定了數量：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君\n\n10\n00:03:18,157 --> 00:03:18,898\n美國政府提出9月簽約可以與其他採購方共同預約並不是說\n\n11\n00:03:38,497 --> 00:03:40,599\n你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣\n\n12\n00:04:04,358 --> 00:04:11,724\n今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍\n\n13\n00:04:32,369 --> 00:04:37,934\n的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批\n\n14\n00:04:57,212 --> 00:04:57,292\n馬文君\n\n15\n00:05:22,609 --> 00:05:23,029\n美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:52,003\n因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用\n\n17\n00:06:13,442 --> 00:06:19,005\n所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息\n\n18\n00:06:42,375 --> 00:06:42,395\n105分鐘\n\n19\n00:07:12,386 --> 00:07:26,857\n105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊\n\n20\n00:07:36,705 --> 00:07:40,128\n你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的\n\n21\n00:08:03,323 --> 00:08:08,186\n現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去\n\n22\n00:08:30,359 --> 00:08:30,399\n：馬文君\n\n23\n00:08:45,840 --> 00:09:01,954\n黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠\n\n24\n00:09:12,422 --> 00:09:12,803\n參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點\n\n25\n00:09:31,164 --> 00:09:31,184\n馬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n270\t571\t國防部長\n8878\t32328\t部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局\n33749\t41272\t通知國會的這個部分是115億然後接下來我們再發價出是55億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾 這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在\n59781\t63202\t在112年建案就有了 部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份\n88868\t92330\t第一,如果急需,我們所有都急需,現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎?然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎?\n107319\t112723\t如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊\n136798\t151247\t我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約\n159878\t160979\t報告員 相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前\n172950\t174771\t大院已經核定了數量：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君\n198157\t198898\t美國政府提出9月簽約可以與其他採購方共同預約並不是說\n218497\t220599\t你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣\n244358\t251724\t今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis 600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍\n272369\t277934\t的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批\n297212\t297292\t馬文君\n322609\t323029\t美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?\n347639\t352003\t因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用\n373442\t379005\t所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息\n402375\t402395\t105分鐘\n432386\t446857\t105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊\n456705\t460128\t你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的\n483323\t488186\t現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去\n510359\t510399\t：馬文君\n525840\t541954\t黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠\n552422\t552803\t參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點\n571164\t571184\t馬委員\n","txt":"國防部長\n部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局\n通知國會的這個部分是115億然後接下來我們再發價出是55億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾 這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在\n在112年建案就有了 部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份\n第一,如果急需,我們所有都急需,現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎?然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎?\n如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊\n我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約\n報告員 相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前\n大院已經核定了數量：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君\n美國政府提出9月簽約可以與其他採購方共同預約並不是說\n你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣\n今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis 600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍\n的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批\n馬文君\n美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?\n因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用\n所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息\n105分鐘\n105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊\n你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的\n現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去\n：馬文君\n黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠\n參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點\n馬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.270 --> 00:00.571\n國防部長\n\n00:08.878 --> 00:32.328\n部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局\n\n00:33.749 --> 00:41.272\n通知國會的這個部分是115億然後接下來我們再發價出是55億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在\n\n00:59.781 --> 01:03.202\n在112年建案就有了部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份\n\n01:28.868 --> 01:32.330\n第一,如果急需,我們所有都急需,現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎?然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎?\n\n01:47.319 --> 01:52.723\n如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊\n\n02:16.798 --> 02:31.247\n我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約\n\n02:39.878 --> 02:40.979\n報告員相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前\n\n02:52.950 --> 02:54.771\n大院已經核定了數量：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君\n\n03:18.157 --> 03:18.898\n美國政府提出9月簽約可以與其他採購方共同預約並不是說\n\n03:38.497 --> 03:40.599\n你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣\n\n04:04.358 --> 04:11.724\n今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍\n\n04:32.369 --> 04:37.934\n的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批\n\n04:57.212 --> 04:57.292\n馬文君\n\n05:22.609 --> 05:23.029\n美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?\n\n05:47.639 --> 05:52.003\n因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用\n\n06:13.442 --> 06:19.005\n所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息\n\n06:42.375 --> 06:42.395\n105分鐘\n\n07:12.386 --> 07:26.857\n105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊\n\n07:36.705 --> 07:40.128\n你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的\n\n08:03.323 --> 08:08.186\n現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去\n\n08:30.359 --> 08:30.399\n：馬文君\n\n08:45.840 --> 09:01.954\n黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠\n\n09:12.422 --> 09:12.803\n參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點\n\n09:31.164 --> 09:31.184\n馬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.27,"end":0.571,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":8.878,"end":32.328,"text":"部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局"},{"start":33.749,"end":41.272,"text":"通知國會的這個部分是115億然後接下來我們再發價出是55億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾 這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在"},{"start":59.781,"end":63.202,"text":"在112年建案就有了 部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份"},{"start":88.868,"end":92.33,"text":"第一,如果急需,我們所有都急需,現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎?然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎?"},{"start":107.319,"end":112.723,"text":"如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊"},{"start":136.798,"end":151.247,"text":"我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約"},{"start":159.878,"end":160.979,"text":"報告員 相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前"},{"start":172.95,"end":174.771,"text":"大院已經核定了數量：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君：馬文君"},{"start":198.157,"end":198.898,"text":"美國政府提出9月簽約可以與其他採購方共同預約並不是說"},{"start":218.497,"end":220.599,"text":"你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣"},{"start":244.358,"end":251.724,"text":"今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis 600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍"},{"start":272.369,"end":277.934,"text":"的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批"},{"start":297.212,"end":297.292,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":322.609,"end":323.029,"text":"美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?"},{"start":347.639,"end":352.003,"text":"因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用"},{"start":373.442,"end":379.005,"text":"所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息"},{"start":402.375,"end":402.395,"text":"105分鐘"},{"start":432.386,"end":446.857,"text":"105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊"},{"start":456.705,"end":460.128,"text":"你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的"},{"start":483.323,"end":488.186,"text":"現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去"},{"start":510.359,"end":510.399,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":525.84,"end":541.954,"text":"黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠"},{"start":552.422,"end":552.803,"text":"參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點"},{"start":571.164,"end":571.184,"text":"馬委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。部長，今天我們討論的是獵鴞這個案子，本席在這裡基於以下幾點原因，反對它繼續使用，就是說它應該要重新建案。剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候，都只提到美國安合局通知國會的部分是115億，然後接下來我們在發價書是55億，可是你們少說了另外在更早之前，我們對美方提出詢價的時候，其實他們報的大概就是五、六十億，所以我們……"],["顧部長立雄：六十幾，這一點我們沒有隱瞞，當時在……"],["馬委員文君：我們不是說隱瞞，就是說他的……"],["顧部長立雄：在113年建案就有了……"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，你有講了，那沒關係。現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候，一定有提出我們的需求數量，然後美方依據我們提出的條件，所以它報價是這樣，那在今年6月份，安合局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億，可是最後在8月份我們其實就已經知道是55億。這部分為什麼我們建議要重新建案？第一，如果是急需，我們所有的都急需，現在有哪一個軍種可以說需要的武器都夠了嗎？然後還有什麼是還沒買到的嗎？如果這個這麼需要，其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊，過去的魚叉你們就是這樣做的啊，所以它不會受到影響。可是我們在這裡要提出來有幾個應該要注意的，第一個就是預算紀律，也就是財政紀律，今天如果只要花這麼多錢，然後你超出這麼多，超出一半以上耶！你有60億的金額，居然要繼續這樣用，那以後你就報告就好了，我們過去可能也有這樣的狀況，很少，可是這是財政紀律的一部分。這個部分8月就已經知道了，就已經收到發價書，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["馬委員文君：8月就知道，為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約？而且是簽一百多億的這個部分，這中間有什麼問題？你明明已經知道就是55億，為什麼你用一百多億去簽？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，戰規司司長這邊向您報告，我們簽約的是目前大院已經核定的數量，兩份發價書……"],["馬委員文君：所以就是55億吧？"],["黃司長文啓：並不是115億。"],["馬委員文君：是55億嘛，對不對？可是你們提供的跟AIT簽的是一百多億喔，你們自己再去看看，看清楚，8月你們就已經收到正式的發價書，可是你9月還這樣簽，這才是真正的養、套、殺，你把那個天價訂出來，然後再降價，然後再用剩餘的，不重新建案，要把它買足，這是第一個我們認為財政紀律有嚴重瑕疵的地方。第二個……"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這個可能有點誤解，美方提出的是9月的時候簽約可以和其他採購方共同議約，並不是說8月份我們拿到發價書，這個是沒錯，但跟那個115億是沒有關係的。"],["馬委員文君：你去看你簽約的內容，在這裡不要爭執這個部分，我們看到的合約的部分就是這樣簽，你跟AIT簽的，就這個部分你就要單純，怎麼會把它全部混在一起，這不是很奇怪嗎？你簽約會這樣簽嗎？你買東西，你只要買午餐，你會把明天的早餐、午餐、晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎？類似這樣。今天沒有很多時間……"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，所以它給我們的只有五十五億多的發價書，它並沒有給我們115億的發價書，所以我們不可能跟它簽115億的發價書。"],["馬委員文君：我知道發價書，司長，我們再給你看，如果有，怎麼辦？你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是一百多億。","因為時間的關係，第二個是有關ALTIUS-600無人機，因為陸軍的說明是說從111年4月就開始借鏡俄烏戰爭的作戰需求，根據外媒報導，烏克蘭是在2023年……因為你們說111年也就是2022年你們就已經借鏡俄烏戰爭，可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批ALTIUS-600的無人機，它是M型的喔，然後5月用兩架去攻擊莫斯科，可是兩架都被擊落。所以剛剛你們說這個600是非常進步的，其實這家公司還有700的，所以你說它有多進步、多好，目前這家公司仍是一個新創公司，而且還在尋求很多投資的管道，希望很多人去投資它，112年它才進入烏克蘭的戰場，就這個部分，我們看到它其實也不見得那麼符合我們的需求。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，因為美軍現在也是在使用這一型的。"],["馬委員文君：美軍誰在使用？你有確定嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：陸戰隊他們自己也有採購。"],["馬委員文君：你確定嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["馬委員文君：把那個資料給我們，好不好？因為就我們看到的資料，近期的文章有發表，美國陸軍測試且證明ALTIUS-600能夠作為網絡蜂群進行大量操作，這是文章說的，並且ALTIUS-600無人機之前也展示過空中發射，重點是美國的陸軍沒有採用。所以在這個部分，因為像ALTIUS-600是新創公司，過去大家看到它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現，如同我剛剛講的，它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架無人機去攻莫斯科，兩架都被打下來。所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求？或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失，我們不知道，因為就我們得到的訊息，美國的陸軍並沒有採用。","另外，整個無人機的市場在目前全球都非常關注的情況之下，其實它的進步非常快，不管是攻擊還是反制，它都是在不斷、不斷地演進，結果你一次要買這麼多，而且就我剛剛說的缺失，我等一下還可以把它其他的問題列出來，因為剛剛你們說它的飛行續航力是多久？"],["陳參謀長建義：105分鐘。"],["馬委員文君：105分鐘，可是安合局公告給我們的上限是600M時間是4小時，你當初給我們的資料也是飛行時間4小時。"],["顧部長立雄：那個是偵蒐型的，我們現在買的是攻擊型的。"],["馬委員文君：不是，它有M型的是4小時，所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["馬委員文君：因為像報章雜誌講的都是600M，然後安合局要給我們的，你可以買到M的，可是我們卻買600，所以這個部分包括它的滯空、彈藥酬載，或是其他的續航力是不是有問題，是不是有符合我們的需求，我想這都是必須要說清楚的，還包括你買了，現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型，你會買兩倍以上的數量，我們以後要放在哪裡？而且它不斷地進步，像臺灣這麼潮溼，過去F-16還有我們的艦體其實都有鏽蝕的狀況，像這個你要放在哪裡？又要蓋東西來放嗎？所以就這幾個原因，我們不認為我們現在要急著花這麼多的錢繼續去買足，而是應該要一步一步審慎地去看我們的經費預算應該要怎麼用，預算就是你用多少花多少，多的繳回，我們希望是用這樣的方式來進行。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，容我三句話簡短地向您報告，第一個，重啟建案，如果按照整個建案程序，類似或是該型的裝備，最快恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得，這是第一點報告。第二個，對於類似ALTIUS-600這樣的序號彈，它是屬於一種彈藥，我們國軍現行的序號彈藥庫房是足夠的，我們是計算過儲存空間的。第三個就是有關於配賦到哪個部隊，先前召委提詢的時候，事實上我們就完成了整體運用的規劃以及編裝的調修，後續會在適當的時機向委員做報告。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點，第一，預算；第二，它是不是符合我們的需求，不是你有地方放就好了，之前拿給我們已經發霉或過期的，你也有地方放啊！第三個……"],["主席：這樣好不好？你們充分去說明啦。"],["馬委員文君：我是就他回答的部分。還有它是不是先進的，我們到底要不要買這麼多的數量，到底多少錢，你也沒有告訴我們，數量會有多少也不知道，所以把它弄清楚，該繳回就繳回。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員，今天我們就是請國防部了解所有問題，再去充分溝通。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們私下跟每個委員溝通有關我們的需求跟編裝相關的部分，因為這比較……"],["主席：編裝不適合在這邊回答啦，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}}