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00:01:31,141\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議\n\n5\n00:01:52,472 --> 00:02:00,115\n那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。\n\n6\n00:02:08,339 --> 00:02:24,584\n謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,\n\n7\n00:02:29,005 --> 00:02:32,226\n法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。\n\n8\n00:02:51,772 --> 00:03:17,019\n地檢署及經濟新法學會演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法\n\n9\n00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:22,646\n司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查\n\n10\n00:03:34,661 --> 00:03:56,253\n在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個\n\n11\n00:03:58,666 --> 00:04:00,666\n財務行政事件審理法草案案。\n\n12\n00:04:22,071 --> 00:04:24,973\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查\n\n13\n00:04:39,805 --> 00:04:52,191\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�\n\n14\n00:05:07,358 --> 00:05:27,925\n我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了\n\n15\n00:05:34,907 --> 00:05:58,939\n因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問\n\n16\n00:06:00,404 --> 00:06:27,304\n一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對\n\n17\n00:06:28,024 --> 00:06:52,016\n但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。\n\n18\n00:06:53,977 --> 00:07:05,368\n當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法\n\n19\n00:07:06,704 --> 00:07:27,735\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n20\n00:07:36,680 --> 00:08:02,058\n實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟\n\n21\n00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,984\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、\n\n22\n00:08:31,497 --> 00:08:37,359\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n23\n00:09:01,618 --> 00:09:22,658\n現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦\n\n24\n00:09:27,575 --> 00:09:43,815\n報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。\n\n25\n00:09:47,159 --> 00:09:51,741\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團\n\n26\n00:10:11,408 --> 00:10:26,423\n我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎\n\n27\n00:10:33,496 --> 00:10:41,270\n你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠\n\n28\n00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:45,491\n法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律\n\n29\n00:11:12,937 --> 00:11:19,159\n對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說\n\n30\n00:11:45,929 --> 00:12:08,619\n我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了\n\n31\n00:12:09,875 --> 00:12:30,923\n你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。\n\n32\n00:12:33,112 --> 00:12:42,938\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n33\n00:13:02,642 --> 00:13:25,759\n沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊\n\n34\n00:13:29,267 --> 00:13:32,772\n法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件\n\n35\n00:13:44,147 --> 00:13:47,651\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5831\t7071\t副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長\n36242\t36462\t王銘英院長\n57506\t83162\t還有今天我們吳宗憲、趙偉你要多學著點我們在司法法制委員會我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度我們這個委員會也要有人性台灣隊拿到冠軍當然要喝咖啡希望下個禮拜開始每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝謝謝謝謝主席我想這個\n85816\t91141\t司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議\n112472\t120115\t那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。\n128339\t144584\t謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,\n149005\t152226\t法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。\n171772\t197019\t地檢署及經濟新法學會 演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法\n197879\t202646\t司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查\n214661\t236253\t在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個\n238666\t240666\t財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。\n262071\t264973\t司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查\n279805\t292191\t審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�\n307358\t327925\t我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了\n334907\t358939\t因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問\n360404\t387304\t一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對\n388024\t412016\t但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。\n413977\t425368\t當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法\n426704\t447735\t函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n456680\t482058\t實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟\n484520\t489984\t司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、\n511497\t517359\t函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n541618\t562658\t現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦\n567575\t583815\t報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。\n587159\t591741\t審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團\n611408\t626423\t我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎\n633496\t641270\t你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠\n643390\t645491\t法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律\n672937\t679159\t對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說\n705929\t728619\t我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了\n729875\t750923\t你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。\n753112\t762938\t審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律\n782642\t805759\t沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊\n809267\t812772\t法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件\n824147\t827651\t司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議\n","txt":"副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長\n王銘英院長\n還有今天我們吳宗憲、趙偉你要多學著點我們在司法法制委員會我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度我們這個委員會也要有人性台灣隊拿到冠軍當然要喝咖啡希望下個禮拜開始每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝謝謝謝謝主席我想這個\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議\n那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。\n謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,\n法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。\n地檢署及經濟新法學會 演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法\n司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查\n在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個\n財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�\n我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了\n因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問\n一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對\n但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。\n當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦\n報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團\n我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎\n你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠\n法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律\n對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說\n我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了\n你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律\n沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊\n法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.831 --> 00:07.071\n副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長\n\n00:36.242 --> 00:36.462\n王銘英院長\n\n00:57.506 --> 01:23.162\n還有今天我們吳宗憲、趙偉你要多學著點我們在司法法制委員會我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度我們這個委員會也要有人性台灣隊拿到冠軍當然要喝咖啡希望下個禮拜開始每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝謝謝謝謝主席我想這個\n\n01:25.816 --> 01:31.141\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議\n\n01:52.472 --> 02:00.115\n那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。\n\n02:08.339 --> 02:24.584\n謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,\n\n02:29.005 --> 02:32.226\n法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。\n\n02:51.772 --> 03:17.019\n地檢署及經濟新法學會演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法\n\n03:17.879 --> 03:22.646\n司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查\n\n03:34.661 --> 03:56.253\n在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個\n\n03:58.666 --> 04:00.666\n財務行政事件審理法草案案。\n\n04:22.071 --> 04:24.973\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查\n\n04:39.805 --> 04:52.191\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�\n\n05:07.358 --> 05:27.925\n我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了\n\n05:34.907 --> 05:58.939\n因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問\n\n06:00.404 --> 06:27.304\n一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對\n\n06:28.024 --> 06:52.016\n但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。\n\n06:53.977 --> 07:05.368\n當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法\n\n07:06.704 --> 07:27.735\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n07:36.680 --> 08:02.058\n實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟\n\n08:04.520 --> 08:09.984\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、\n\n08:31.497 --> 08:37.359\n函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n09:01.618 --> 09:22.658\n現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦\n\n09:27.575 --> 09:43.815\n報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。\n\n09:47.159 --> 09:51.741\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團\n\n10:11.408 --> 10:26.423\n我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎\n\n10:33.496 --> 10:41.270\n你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠\n\n10:43.390 --> 10:45.491\n法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律\n\n11:12.937 --> 11:19.159\n對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說\n\n11:45.929 --> 12:08.619\n我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了\n\n12:09.875 --> 12:30.923\n你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。\n\n12:33.112 --> 12:42.938\n審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律\n\n13:02.642 --> 13:25.759\n沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊\n\n13:29.267 --> 13:32.772\n法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件\n\n13:44.147 --> 13:47.651\n司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.831,"end":7.071,"text":"副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長副秘書長"},{"start":36.242,"end":36.462,"text":"王銘英院長"},{"start":57.506,"end":83.162,"text":"還有今天我們吳宗憲、趙偉你要多學著點我們在司法法制委員會我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度我們這個委員會也要有人性台灣隊拿到冠軍當然要喝咖啡希望下個禮拜開始每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝謝謝謝謝主席我想這個"},{"start":85.816,"end":91.141,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":112.472,"end":120.115,"text":"那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。"},{"start":128.339,"end":144.584,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,"},{"start":149.005,"end":152.226,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。"},{"start":171.772,"end":197.019,"text":"地檢署及經濟新法學會 演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法"},{"start":197.879,"end":202.646,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查"},{"start":214.661,"end":236.253,"text":"在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個"},{"start":238.666,"end":240.666,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。"},{"start":262.071,"end":264.973,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":279.805,"end":292.191,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�"},{"start":307.358,"end":327.925,"text":"我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了"},{"start":334.907,"end":358.939,"text":"因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問"},{"start":360.404,"end":387.304,"text":"一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對"},{"start":388.024,"end":412.016,"text":"但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。"},{"start":413.977,"end":425.368,"text":"當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法"},{"start":426.704,"end":447.735,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":456.68,"end":482.058,"text":"實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟"},{"start":484.52,"end":489.984,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、"},{"start":511.497,"end":517.359,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":541.618,"end":562.658,"text":"現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦"},{"start":567.575,"end":583.815,"text":"報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。"},{"start":587.159,"end":591.741,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":611.408,"end":626.423,"text":"我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎"},{"start":633.496,"end":641.27,"text":"你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠"},{"start":643.39,"end":645.491,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":672.937,"end":679.159,"text":"對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說"},{"start":705.929,"end":728.619,"text":"我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了"},{"start":729.875,"end":750.923,"text":"你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。"},{"start":753.112,"end":762.938,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":782.642,"end":805.759,"text":"沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊"},{"start":809.267,"end":812.772,"text":"法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件"},{"start":824.147,"end":827.651,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時3分）謝謝召委，有請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：來這麼多院長，我要請哪一個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們不是有快要接任副秘書長的？王院長好了，也請上來一下，因為牽扯到實務跟法界不同的看法，剛好實務跟法界全部都是在你們家，請上來一下。"],["主席：有請王梅英院長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有今天我們吳宗憲召委要多學著點，我們在司法法制委員會，我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度，我們這個委員會也要有人性，臺灣隊拿到冠軍，當然要喝咖啡，希望下個禮拜開始，每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝，謝謝，謝謝主席。","兩位副秘書長，有幾個問題想來就教，科技偵查法（原本的專法）現在改在刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分專章裡面去做討論，但是整個修法的結果出來以後，我看在學術界跟實務界產生很大的一個爭論。未來的副秘書長──王院長，你有沒有去了解到大家詬病的地方？你哪有可能沒聽到，你在你家就會聽到了。"],["王院長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢，因為體制上我還沒有上任，這個部分因為不是涉及臺北地院的事務，我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答……"],["莊委員瑞雄：倒也不是，因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方，我也想聽聽實務界的看法，司法院當然也是實務界，跟整個法界的看法落差到底會有多大？據本席所知道，至少有三個學術研討會，其中一場司法院在9月9號舉辦科技偵查處分救濟權學術與實務交流研討會，然後9月13號有科技偵查暨網路流量紀錄實務研討會，這個在臺灣臺北地檢署跟經濟刑法學會裡面，另外，10月21到22有特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會，討論聚焦的焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的倒退。","這部法令在修的時候，在我們司法法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論，本席也提出很多很多不同的看法，我也一直認為，其實很多地方還是有檢討的空間。以這次來看的話，最大的爭議是允許司法警察官跟司法警察可以跳過法院，許可書事後補發，在情況急迫逕行發動GPS、M化車跟無實體的侵入監視，以及疏漏了檢察事務官，還有司法警察官、司法警察所為可抗告救濟這樣強大的武器。當然，我看劍青也對你們提出了很大的一個抨擊，有一些講得有道理，但是也有一些本席不予認同的地方。","比如說針對辯護人，是不是可以獨立抗告？還是代理抗告？這個在8月修法剛過的時候，當初劍青檢改就提出聲明，在救濟權的部分，創造了辯護人的獨立抗告權，即使被告明示反對，辯護人仍得以自己名義獨立提出抗告。在8月份，我認為司法院你們的回應非常的快，非常的迅速，趕快讓它落幕了。可是你注意看，司法院的解釋我認為可以接受的一個地方，就是在第一百五十三條之十沒有明文規範是獨立，這個可以接受。另外，你們也去援引111年憲判3號的意旨，本來辯護人就不可以跟被告的明示意思表示違反，其實這個在法界形成一個通說啦！但問題是你繞了一圈回來以後，我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第十條部分的規定拿來看，當初的就這麼簡單，當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二條至第四條、第七條、前條的裁定或處分不服者，得依刑事訴訟法提起抗告或聲請撤銷或變更，當初條文設計就這麼簡單，對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了。因為你一準用條文，本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示相反，不用大家在那邊解釋了半天。","8月份我覺得你們回應得很好，但是到9月份你們的回應，我就覺得你們太過於保守了。我們在審理這部法案的時候，我也一直問你們，針對如果司法警察、司法警察官做這樣強大的強制處分，當事人或者受調查人、犯罪嫌疑人有權利，你要讓他救濟，後來如果法律通過以後，司法院的能量到底有沒有辦法承受？我們當時聚焦完全都是在這個地方，對不對？可是我看在研討會裡面那麼多的教授，我就沒有一一去看，這上面都有寫了。他就說從111年憲判字1號強制抽血的酒測、7號裡面辯護人的救濟權，到第16號的強制採尿，都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。當然後面就是要跟你反證，其實今天已經到2024年了，怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除救濟權的一個設計。副秘書長，你的看法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，科偵的警察機關去調查跟採尿這一部分，可能不盡然相同啦！我們之前也有跟大院報告，目前針對第一百五十三條之十沒有設，因為它的程度其實是比較輕的，它也沒有繼續24小時，實際上後續如果說它並不符合相關的這些規定的時候，後續產生的就是依照刑事訴訟法證據排除的規定，就不採這一部分的證據，甚至如果它有跟法律不符，也有後續的，包含國家賠償甚至其他個人的責任這一部分去負，如果給他獨立的救濟，說實話，當然我們看到有的法是這樣，但獨立救濟的結果是怎麼樣，我們看得到，也是在宣告違法，所以這部分司法院並沒有絕對說一定不可以設，只是當時評估第一個假設將來我們偵查機關的量能因為未滿24小時這一部分的話，那麼……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不對，黃副秘書長，不對、不對，你這個回答都太過於保守了，我請教王院長。我看林鈺雄教授在研討會當中，他也直接點出來這種立法，批評我們立法倒退了50年，因為沒有納入司法警察跟司法警察官所做的強制處分，這個我是聽得下去喔！接下來現在換司法院起來，你們要當家，你們到底有沒有什麼樣的打算，比如重新修法這樣的打算？確實啊，你有權利就有救濟，這是法律的基本概念，為什麼你把科偵處分這個部分給排除掉呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌，但是真的假設要訂定進去，司法院也沒有說絕對排除，這部分就是刑訴第一百五十三條之十，如果認為真的有必要列，但是我們比較……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是、不是、不是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：建議不要列在第四百一十六條而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：在本席來看，我為什麼說你們回應不到位的地方，就是現在重要的前提你們認為要有本案的存在才可以變成審查的對象，比如短時間司法警察跟司法警察官所為的科技偵查處分，最後可能沒有成案，你們認為受干預的對象就算收到通知書也無從救濟起，你們的想法可能是在這個地方，但是過去2020年的草案裡面，公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則，現在這一部通過的法令都已經是退縮到只有執法機關的內控機制，你認為這樣強大的強制處分只用內控的機制，對嗎？你本來認為那個部分公務人員只要違法的話，反而新法裡面就有規定，本席一直跟你們講涵攝的範圍不夠，甚至在三讀完以後，我還跟林思銘講、還跟各黨的委員講，我們漏掉了一個條文，我們刻意把它疏漏掉，因為給了司法警察、司法警察官這麼大的強制處分以後，本來在原條文的設計裡面還有公務人員處分這樣的規定，我們反而到最後把那個條文給拿掉了，現在大家在這個地方做爭論，我們到底還有沒有對於這些強制處分的救濟部分，再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，假設大院認為應該要去修，我們也是建議第一百五十三條之十是不是在能量可以的地方賦予他救濟，但是不要在第四百十六條，因為第四百十六條的射程在所有實務上面大概是沒有辦法的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是這樣認為，我也不知道要怎麼說你們，本來要這個強大的強制處分權是在偵查機關，偵查機關取得這個權力，條文的設計給它這個權力以後，現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行、不行，很有可能他們是會濫權的。司法院還跳出來幫他背書說不會、不會，你們去內控就好了。在這部法律裡面，讓我覺得檢察機關跟司法院你們角色錯亂掉了，你們角色錯亂掉唯一只有一個理由，你們自肥的心態認為這個法律通過以後，你們沒有那個救濟的量能，我想來想去你們就只有這個考慮而已，可是只有這樣的考慮，這不對喔！這不對喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以來檢討，司法院也在檢討這一部分，只要合理，如果像學者講的那麼宣示違法也應該達到一定的作用，我想可以來檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的想法一直都很簡單，科偵法神不知鬼不覺，你說時間很短沒有超過2天或沒有超過24小時，這些都不需受到法律的制約只要內控就好了，我認為這個都不夠，而且科偵法的強制處分完了以後，這個資料未必會消失，他案如果還有用到，而且沒有人知道，它就是保留著。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：子法底下當然要就這些東西做規範，授權子法底下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是認為司法院這部分跟檢察機關來比較的話，反而你們太過於保守，而且這個心態昭然若揭，只站在你們自己的立場，所以我認為司法院對這樣的法律設計，是不是應該重新跟行政院考慮協商一下，再來提出事後的一個補救，我覺得這是很迫切的一件事情，好不好？王院長抱歉喔。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，我們會研究。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝黃副秘書長跟王院長。","接下來請吳召委宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}}