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{\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 125.576, \"end\": 125.596, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 125.596, \"end\": 125.656, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 125.656, \"end\": 125.796, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 125.796, \"end\": 125.836, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 125.836, \"end\": 125.936, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 125.936, \"end\": 125.956, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 125.956, \"end\": 125.976, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}]}, {\"start\": 132.608, \"end\": 140.797, \"text\": \"我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 132.608, \"end\": 133.008, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 133.008, \"end\": 133.549, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 133.549, \"end\": 133.91, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 133.91, \"end\": 134.09, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 134.09, \"end\": 134.31, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 134.31, \"end\": 134.49, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 134.49, \"end\": 134.851, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 134.851, \"end\": 134.951, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 134.951, \"end\": 135.111, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 135.111, \"end\": 135.271, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 135.271, \"end\": 135.832, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 135.832, \"end\": 135.932, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 135.932, 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\"我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 148.137, \"end\": 148.257, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 148.257, \"end\": 148.717, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 148.717, \"end\": 148.877, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 148.877, \"end\": 148.977, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 148.977, \"end\": 149.077, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 149.077, \"end\": 150.298, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 150.298, \"end\": 150.458, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 150.458, \"end\": 150.638, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 150.638, \"end\": 150.738, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 150.738, \"end\": 150.958, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 150.958, \"end\": 151.378, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 151.378, \"end\": 151.758, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 151.758, \"end\": 151.858, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 151.858, \"end\": 151.958, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 151.958, \"end\": 152.679, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 152.679, \"end\": 152.859, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 152.859, \"end\": 153.719, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 153.719, \"end\": 153.859, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 153.859, \"end\": 154.319, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 154.319, \"end\": 154.86, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 154.86, \"end\": 155.38, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 155.38, \"end\": 155.46, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 155.46, 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162.102, \"end\": 162.202, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 162.202, \"end\": 162.362, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 162.362, \"end\": 162.463, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 162.463, \"end\": 162.743, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 162.743, \"end\": 163.363, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 163.363, \"end\": 163.603, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 163.603, \"end\": 164.203, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 164.203, \"end\": 164.643, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 164.643, \"end\": 164.823, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 164.823, \"end\": 165.004, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 165.004, \"end\": 165.364, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 165.364, \"end\": 165.484, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 165.484, \"end\": 166.204, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 166.204, \"end\": 166.844, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 166.844, \"end\": 167.024, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 167.024, \"end\": 167.304, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 167.304, \"end\": 167.364, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 167.364, \"end\": 167.444, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 167.444, \"end\": 167.544, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 167.544, \"end\": 167.564, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 169.005, \"end\": 181.027, \"text\": \"我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 169.005, \"end\": 169.186, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 174.696, \"end\": 174.896, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 174.896, \"end\": 175.016, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 175.016, \"end\": 175.176, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 175.176, \"end\": 175.337, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 175.337, \"end\": 175.457, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 175.457, \"end\": 175.978, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 175.978, \"end\": 176.178, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 176.178, \"end\": 176.819, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 176.819, \"end\": 177.941, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 177.941, \"end\": 178.342, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 178.342, \"end\": 178.462, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 178.462, \"end\": 178.562, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 178.562, \"end\": 178.783, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 178.783, \"end\": 178.883, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 178.883, \"end\": 179.424, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 179.424, \"end\": 179.664, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 179.664, \"end\": 179.825, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 179.825, \"end\": 180.005, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 180.005, \"end\": 180.125, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 180.125, \"end\": 180.326, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"d\", \"start\": 180.326, \"end\": 180.466, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 180.466, \"end\": 180.546, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"u\", \"start\": 180.546, \"end\": 180.947, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"b\", \"start\": 180.947, \"end\": 180.987, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"l\", \"start\": 180.987, \"end\": 181.007, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 181.007, \"end\": 181.027, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 181.536, \"end\": 210.722, \"text\": \"所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 181.536, \"end\": 181.616, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 181.616, \"end\": 181.916, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 181.916, \"end\": 182.136, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 182.136, \"end\": 182.356, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 182.356, \"end\": 182.676, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 182.676, \"end\": 182.876, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 182.876, \"end\": 182.976, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 182.976, \"end\": 183.116, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 183.116, \"end\": 183.216, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 183.216, \"end\": 183.456, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 183.456, \"end\": 183.836, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 183.836, \"end\": 183.956, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 183.956, \"end\": 184.277, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 184.277, \"end\": 184.517, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 184.517, \"end\": 184.677, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 184.677, \"end\": 184.937, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 184.937, \"end\": 185.417, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"果\", \"start\": 481.803, \"end\": 482.103, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 482.103, \"end\": 482.123, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 505.592, \"end\": 505.732, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 505.732, \"end\": 505.752, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,329 --> 00:00:26,160\n你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,陳委員好部長好部長,今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億60億元吧\n\n2\n00:00:29,042 --> 00:00:47,155\n後來114年美國國會是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規司的司長有提到說這個必須要考量包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億通膨是百分之百嗎\n\n3\n00:00:50,237 --> 00:01:14,030\n我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列的一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目\n\n4\n00:01:15,911 --> 00:01:42,639\n但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價\n\n5\n00:01:44,690 --> 00:02:05,976\n有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億\n\n6\n00:02:12,608 --> 00:02:20,797\n我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理\n\n7\n00:02:28,137 --> 00:02:47,564\n我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候\n\n8\n00:02:49,005 --> 00:03:01,027\n我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double\n\n9\n00:03:01,536 --> 00:03:30,722\n所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統\n\n10\n00:03:31,522 --> 00:03:53,598\n他們的政權他們的談判的能力如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量不是說他的金額金額是固定結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要你要考量一下說怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告這麼多委員在討論也是因為\n\n11\n00:03:56,500 --> 00:04:13,425\n這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別\n\n12\n00:04:14,850 --> 00:04:25,180\n我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?\n\n13\n00:04:36,205 --> 00:04:51,533\n報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的\n\n14\n00:04:59,258 --> 00:05:22,111\n我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:23,612 --> 00:05:29,997\n我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國\n\n16\n00:05:35,129 --> 00:05:50,494\n現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個\n\n17\n00:05:57,983 --> 00:06:11,418\n所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行\n\n18\n00:06:17,743 --> 00:06:26,507\n要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟\n\n19\n00:06:28,353 --> 00:06:29,713\n明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分\n\n20\n00:06:51,718 --> 00:07:16,891\n那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程\n\n21\n00:07:17,992 --> 00:07:35,731\n我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果\n\n22\n00:07:37,152 --> 00:07:58,718\n我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的\n\n23\n00:08:00,302 --> 00:08:02,123\n主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們\n\n24\n00:08:25,592 --> 00:08:25,752\n好,謝謝,謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n329\t26160\t你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,陳委員好部長好部長,今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億60億元吧\n29042\t47155\t後來114年美國國會是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規司的司長有提到說這個必須要考量包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億通膨是百分之百嗎\n50237\t74030\t我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列的一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目\n75911\t102639\t但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價\n104690\t125976\t有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億\n132608\t140797\t我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理\n148137\t167564\t我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候\n169005\t181027\t我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double\n181536\t210722\t所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統\n211522\t233598\t他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備 國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要 你要考量一下說 怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為\n236500\t253425\t這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別\n254850\t265180\t我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?\n276205\t291533\t報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的\n299258\t322111\t我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?\n323612\t329997\t我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國\n335129\t350494\t現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個\n357983\t371418\t所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行\n377743\t386507\t要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟\n388353\t389713\t明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分\n411718\t436891\t那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程\n437992\t455731\t我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果\n457152\t478718\t我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的\n480302\t482123\t主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們\n505592\t505752\t好,謝謝,謝謝部長\n","txt":"你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,陳委員好部長好部長,今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億60億元吧\n後來114年美國國會是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規司的司長有提到說這個必須要考量包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億通膨是百分之百嗎\n我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列的一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目\n但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價\n有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億\n我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理\n我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候\n我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double\n所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統\n他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備 國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要 你要考量一下說 怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為\n這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別\n我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?\n報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的\n我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?\n我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國\n現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個\n所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行\n要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟\n明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分\n那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程\n我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果\n我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的\n主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們\n好,謝謝,謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.329 --> 00:26.160\n你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,陳委員好部長好部長,今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億60億元吧\n\n00:29.042 --> 00:47.155\n後來114年美國國會是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規司的司長有提到說這個必須要考量包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億通膨是百分之百嗎\n\n00:50.237 --> 01:14.030\n我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列的一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目\n\n01:15.911 --> 01:42.639\n但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價\n\n01:44.690 --> 02:05.976\n有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億\n\n02:12.608 --> 02:20.797\n我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理\n\n02:28.137 --> 02:47.564\n我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候\n\n02:49.005 --> 03:01.027\n我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double\n\n03:01.536 --> 03:30.722\n所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統\n\n03:31.522 --> 03:53.598\n他們的政權他們的談判的能力如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量不是說他的金額金額是固定結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要你要考量一下說怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告這麼多委員在討論也是因為\n\n03:56.500 --> 04:13.425\n這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別\n\n04:14.850 --> 04:25.180\n我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?\n\n04:36.205 --> 04:51.533\n報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的\n\n04:59.258 --> 05:22.111\n我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?\n\n05:23.612 --> 05:29.997\n我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國\n\n05:35.129 --> 05:50.494\n現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個\n\n05:57.983 --> 06:11.418\n所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行\n\n06:17.743 --> 06:26.507\n要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟\n\n06:28.353 --> 06:29.713\n明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分\n\n06:51.718 --> 07:16.891\n那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程\n\n07:17.992 --> 07:35.731\n我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果\n\n07:37.152 --> 07:58.718\n我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的\n\n08:00.302 --> 08:02.123\n主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們\n\n08:25.592 --> 08:25.752\n好,謝謝,謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.329,"end":26.16,"text":"你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,陳委員好部長好部長,今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億60億元吧"},{"start":29.042,"end":47.155,"text":"後來114年美國國會是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規司的司長有提到說這個必須要考量包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億通膨是百分之百嗎"},{"start":50.237,"end":74.03,"text":"我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列的一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目"},{"start":75.911,"end":102.639,"text":"但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價"},{"start":104.69,"end":125.976,"text":"有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億"},{"start":132.608,"end":140.797,"text":"我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理"},{"start":148.137,"end":167.564,"text":"我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候"},{"start":169.005,"end":181.027,"text":"我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double"},{"start":181.536,"end":210.722,"text":"所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統"},{"start":211.522,"end":233.598,"text":"他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備 國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要 你要考量一下說 怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為"},{"start":236.5,"end":253.425,"text":"這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別"},{"start":254.85,"end":265.18,"text":"我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?"},{"start":276.205,"end":291.533,"text":"報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的"},{"start":299.258,"end":322.111,"text":"我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?"},{"start":323.612,"end":329.997,"text":"我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國"},{"start":335.129,"end":350.494,"text":"現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個"},{"start":357.983,"end":371.418,"text":"所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行"},{"start":377.743,"end":386.507,"text":"要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟"},{"start":388.353,"end":389.713,"text":"明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分"},{"start":411.718,"end":436.891,"text":"那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程"},{"start":437.992,"end":455.731,"text":"我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果"},{"start":457.152,"end":478.718,"text":"我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的"},{"start":480.302,"end":482.123,"text":"主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們"},{"start":505.592,"end":505.752,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時3分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案，其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員跟我們說明執行規劃，整體的規劃編列預算最開始是60億元，後來114年美國國會是說115億。剛才幾位委員在討論的時候，我有聽到戰規司的司長提到必須要考量包含通膨等等因素在裡面，可是從60億到115億，這樣算起來的通膨率是百分之百，我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高，可不可以稍微解釋一下，當你們看到115億時，你們的心態是怎麼樣？是不是覺得怎麼會有這樣龐大的預算？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，它的項目當然不是只有通膨而已，剛剛陳永康委員有列出一個表，裡面大概有八大類，但是它的項目非常龐雜，美方也不會跟我們公布這些詳細項目。但我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關案例來看，當我們發現軍售案跟初估報價的價格價差超過20%以上，我們就會視為不合理，一定會跟美方進行洽談，了解實際上價格超溢的原因。這次也是採取同樣模式，最後美方也透過共同議約模式協助我們把價格有效降下來。"],["陳委員冠廷：有效降下來？對，聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意，可以有效降到55億。可是我現在又有一個疑問，為什麼你們當初會直接編列115億元？表示你們對數量……這是同樣的數量，可是你們還是編列115億元？可不可以再說明一下？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，當初美方……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們還沒有拿到最後裝備發價書是55億的時候，你們就直接編115億了！"],["黃司長文啓：我們不會這樣編列。因為美方給我們的初估報價只有六十餘億，所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算，後續再視美方實際發價書的價格來做處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我要講這件事情的原因在於，我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制。我們談了那麼久，剛才幾位委員都在講，由於幅度之大，所以我們不能給空白授權！也就是說預算紀律還有直接……像跟我說明資料的時候，我們看上面所列的專案內容與執行概況，都會誤以為這115億元的意思是代表，美方當初以115億幫我們編列的時候，是要讓我們裝備的數量可以直接double！所以我們必須要很清楚知道我們編列的預算與我們需要多少量能，且量能跟預算必須要成正比。如果他們說多少，我們就編多少，等於完全沒有談判籌碼，沒有談判機制。剛才陳永康委員……對，我剛才有看到你們講的裡面所列的各個大項，每一個項目都很清楚，但還是希望國防部能仔細思考一下，未來我們要怎麼樣去跟人家談判！未來川普總統的政權、他們的談判能力，如果我們照單全收的話，那麼我希望照單全收的是量，而不是金額。若金額是固定的，結果量反而是二分之一，我們不希望是這樣子。我們當然知道你們有作戰需求，也需要作戰裝備，我們都支持國防預算，但必須要考量一下怎麼浮動變化會如此之大。今天為什麼會有這個專案報告，有這麼多委員在討論？正是因為如此。我希望未來你們在說明價格落差與解釋資料時，可以用一些表格，可以比較清晰地讓我們瞭解，不然會全部都混在一起，今年、明年甚至去年，55億、60億，這些價差都是到百分之百的差別。","我現在想請教一下，依照作戰場域不同，上次國防部官員來我們辦公室說明時提到，是依照對方的裝備……我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備，即反他們的裝備。現在看起來，這九百多套裝備還是遠遠不足的，我是不是可以這樣說？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，沒有錯，目前我們光是反甲型的需求就需要上千套以上。"],["陳委員冠廷：上千套以上？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果編列九百多套還夠嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：九百多是包含685套是人員殺傷型……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以291套是反甲型的？"],["陳參謀長建義：291套是初次採購的。我跟委員報告，面對共軍各式登陸的可能戰甲車輛，我們的需求要上千套以上。"],["陳委員冠廷：上千套？所以大概還短缺六、七百套左右，好因應他們的裝備？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們自己有沒有足夠的自製能力？剛才提到有複式的來源比價，所以包含本身自產能力也是未來可以作為談判的籌碼嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在當然正在進行相關的努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以反甲型無人機，我國……若以中科院的評價來說，我們有機會有自製能力嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在中科院比較著重在人員殺傷型的部分，至於反裝甲型的部分，可能還要看後續，現在還沒有一定的成果出來。所以我們再督促中科院，根據人員殺傷型來進一步發展反裝甲型，我想我們會以外購跟自製兩種方式來進行。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我還是要強調一下，要增加談判籌碼第一個是外購商源總量多，第二個是有自製能力。其實我們有時候不好意思這樣講，不過就算自製能力還不夠成熟，卻也可以作為談判的籌碼。這點從過去空軍的研發就可以知道，當我們具備某種能力再去商購相關裝備，可能會更加順遂，至少在金額方面我們比較有底氣跟人家做談判。","再來，我想要針對明年編列20億元的潛艦預算請教。這幾天很多媒體談到，在野黨可能要針對明年編列的預算做凍、減、刪，有些甚至是全面刪除，有些則保留大概剩下2億元。之所以保留2億元是因為他們認為，某種程度還是可以完成前期簽約，也不會影響潛艦國造的歷程。部長或其他同仁可不可以解釋一下，為什麼我們需要這20億？為什麼這20億不能被凍、減、刪，因為會影響到後面的期程？是不是可以簡單說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，主要是因為台船……我們現在在做海上測試，我也一再承諾在海測通過之後才會動用這筆錢。在這之前，我們要台船先行備料、議約等等，還有後續次承包商等等都要進行相關的作業，這些都可能要運用他自己的款項來預付，我們不付；等到海測通過之後，我們再動支相關預算，主要是這樣子。"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，部長，如果他們保留到僅剩2億，這樣子足夠我們後來的……"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然希望……最好的方式就是海測通過前，我們不動支任何一毛錢；在海測通過之後，我們看看台船已經動支多少錢，我們就依照它已經動支的數目來補給台船，讓它的金流能夠順遂。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}}