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\"end\": 584.119, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 584.119, \"end\": 584.139, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 584.599, \"end\": 584.639, \"score\": 0.48}, {\"word\": \"憶\"}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 584.639, \"end\": 584.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 584.659, \"end\": 584.679, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:03,718\n主席有請國安局副局長國安局副局長\n\n2\n00:00:10,888 --> 00:00:37,453\n副局長好首先我想請教副局長一個比較明慈的定義的問題就是你們今天報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外後來學術界在討論國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是\n\n3\n00:00:40,424 --> 00:00:44,848\n那好那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法\n\n4\n00:01:02,325 --> 00:01:06,987\n搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊\n\n5\n00:01:31,038 --> 00:01:32,841\n本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例\n\n6\n00:01:46,577 --> 00:02:07,149\n你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣\n\n7\n00:02:09,110 --> 00:02:35,616\n在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話\n\n8\n00:02:36,877 --> 00:02:41,328\n未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外\n\n9\n00:02:42,162 --> 00:03:10,606\n那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響\n\n10\n00:03:11,626 --> 00:03:31,442\n目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。\n\n11\n00:03:32,362 --> 00:03:42,051\n10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢\n\n12\n00:03:59,702 --> 00:04:18,576\n這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些\n\n13\n00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:23,821\n這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾\n\n14\n00:04:42,079 --> 00:04:45,461\n請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施\n\n15\n00:04:59,529 --> 00:05:22,217\n這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒\n\n16\n00:05:23,001 --> 00:05:39,207\n那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了\n\n17\n00:05:40,890 --> 00:06:00,240\n這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做\n\n18\n00:06:01,843 --> 00:06:22,918\n其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢\n\n19\n00:06:25,422 --> 00:06:34,020\n謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考\n\n20\n00:06:36,621 --> 00:07:04,540\n接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢\n\n21\n00:07:05,661 --> 00:07:30,781\n謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處\n\n22\n00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:57,645\n因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表\n\n23\n00:08:01,306 --> 00:08:25,594\n有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經\n\n24\n00:08:26,894 --> 00:08:28,014\n副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半\n\n25\n00:08:55,979 --> 00:09:23,045\n就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是\n\n26\n00:09:24,065 --> 00:09:44,139\n真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。\n\n27\n00:09:44,599 --> 00:09:44,679\n林憶君委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t3718\t主席有請國安局副局長國安局副局長\n10888\t37453\t副局長好首先我想請教副局長一個比較明慈的定義的問題就是你們今天報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外後來學術界在討論國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是\n40424\t44848\t那好 那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法\n62325\t66987\t搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊\n91038\t92841\t本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例\n106577\t127149\t你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣\n129110\t155616\t在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話\n156877\t161328\t未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外\n162162\t190606\t那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響\n191626\t211442\t目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。\n212362\t222051\t10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢\n239702\t258576\t這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些\n260639\t263821\t這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾\n282079\t285461\t請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施\n299529\t322217\t這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒\n323001\t339207\t那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了\n340890\t360240\t這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做\n361843\t382918\t其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢\n385422\t394020\t謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考\n396621\t424540\t接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢\n425661\t450781\t謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處\n452079\t477645\t因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表\n481306\t505594\t有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經\n506894\t508014\t副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半\n535979\t563045\t就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是\n564065\t584139\t真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。\n584599\t584679\t林憶君委員\n","txt":"主席有請國安局副局長國安局副局長\n副局長好首先我想請教副局長一個比較明慈的定義的問題就是你們今天報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外後來學術界在討論國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是\n那好 那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法\n搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊\n本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例\n你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣\n在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話\n未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外\n那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響\n目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。\n10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢\n這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些\n這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾\n請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施\n這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒\n那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了\n這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做\n其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢\n謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考\n接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢\n謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處\n因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表\n有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經\n副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半\n就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是\n真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。\n林憶君委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:03.718\n主席有請國安局副局長國安局副局長\n\n00:10.888 --> 00:37.453\n副局長好首先我想請教副局長一個比較明慈的定義的問題就是你們今天報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外後來學術界在討論國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是\n\n00:40.424 --> 00:44.848\n那好那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法\n\n01:02.325 --> 01:06.987\n搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊\n\n01:31.038 --> 01:32.841\n本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例\n\n01:46.577 --> 02:07.149\n你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣\n\n02:09.110 --> 02:35.616\n在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話\n\n02:36.877 --> 02:41.328\n未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外\n\n02:42.162 --> 03:10.606\n那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響\n\n03:11.626 --> 03:31.442\n目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。\n\n03:32.362 --> 03:42.051\n10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢\n\n03:59.702 --> 04:18.576\n這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些\n\n04:20.639 --> 04:23.821\n這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾\n\n04:42.079 --> 04:45.461\n請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施\n\n04:59.529 --> 05:22.217\n這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒\n\n05:23.001 --> 05:39.207\n那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了\n\n05:40.890 --> 06:00.240\n這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做\n\n06:01.843 --> 06:22.918\n其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢\n\n06:25.422 --> 06:34.020\n謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考\n\n06:36.621 --> 07:04.540\n接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢\n\n07:05.661 --> 07:30.781\n謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處\n\n07:32.079 --> 07:57.645\n因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表\n\n08:01.306 --> 08:25.594\n有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經\n\n08:26.894 --> 08:28.014\n副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半\n\n08:55.979 --> 09:23.045\n就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是\n\n09:24.065 --> 09:44.139\n真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。\n\n09:44.599 --> 09:44.679\n林憶君委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":3.718,"text":"主席有請國安局副局長國安局副局長"},{"start":10.888,"end":37.453,"text":"副局長好首先我想請教副局長一個比較明慈的定義的問題就是你們今天報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外後來學術界在討論國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是"},{"start":40.424,"end":44.848,"text":"那好 那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法"},{"start":62.325,"end":66.987,"text":"搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊"},{"start":91.038,"end":92.841,"text":"本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例"},{"start":106.577,"end":127.149,"text":"你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣"},{"start":129.11,"end":155.616,"text":"在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話"},{"start":156.877,"end":161.328,"text":"未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外"},{"start":162.162,"end":190.606,"text":"那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響"},{"start":191.626,"end":211.442,"text":"目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。"},{"start":212.362,"end":222.051,"text":"10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢"},{"start":239.702,"end":258.576,"text":"這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些"},{"start":260.639,"end":263.821,"text":"這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾"},{"start":282.079,"end":285.461,"text":"請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":299.529,"end":322.217,"text":"這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒"},{"start":323.001,"end":339.207,"text":"那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了"},{"start":340.89,"end":360.24,"text":"這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做"},{"start":361.843,"end":382.918,"text":"其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢"},{"start":385.422,"end":394.02,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考"},{"start":396.621,"end":424.54,"text":"接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢"},{"start":425.661,"end":450.781,"text":"謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處"},{"start":452.079,"end":477.645,"text":"因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表"},{"start":481.306,"end":505.594,"text":"有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經"},{"start":506.894,"end":508.014,"text":"副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半"},{"start":535.979,"end":563.045,"text":"就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是"},{"start":564.065,"end":584.139,"text":"真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。"},{"start":584.599,"end":584.679,"text":"林憶君委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請國安局副局長。"],["主席：副局長，請。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：副局長好。首先我想請教副局長一個比較名詞定義的問題，你們今天的報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權，原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外，後來學術界在討論，國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候，擴大對長臂管轄的定義，或者也叫做域外管轄，本席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧？"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["林委員憶君：好。我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候，一開始的經典案例應該就是美國引用他們的貿易法第三百零一條，對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷調查，甚至實施制裁；後來中國也學到這一套方法，卻用到了政治用途上面，利用他們的國安法，搭配中國在全球超過50個警僑事務的海外服務站，逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共，或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法等等法條，對他們自己所定義的所謂頑固臺獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任，譬如像是國防部顧立雄部長，還有我們的主席王定宇召委，還有本會的委員沈伯洋，這些人都可能會被列在中國的這份清單上面，這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對臺灣實施長臂管轄的案例，你覺得本席這樣理解應該是沒問題吧？"],["張副局長元斌：對，跟委員報告，其實中共基於意識形態還有它的政治意圖，用國內法來作為境外或長臂管轄，事實上兩岸是互不隸屬，所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由，在我們國人來講，其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄，這部分在國內來講是沒有影響；至於國外的話，因為有些美盟國家或者友盟國家，事實上他們更重視自己的司法自主，所以不容許中共……在引渡上，他們也會排除政治異議人士的引渡，所以在這些政治法令的部分，未必會配合它的辦理，但某些親中國家可能是例外。"],["林委員憶君：請問一下，剛才這樣講，副局長，你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰，還是心理戰，還是輿論戰，這三戰裡面的哪一種樣態？"],["張副局長元斌：我想是一個複合的結果，第一個有法律，它立法了，就它自己國內的法去執行，擴及到境外；另外，它透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰、做心理的影響，目的就是要達成它的寒蟬效應，達成它的政治目的，這是一個複合式的作法。"],["林委員憶君：好。副局長，根據你們今天報告中指出，近期國內影城播放了「國有器官」紀錄片，揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官以達到延壽的目的的這種不法行為，10月份的時候，文化部、高雄市議會以及臺北市某影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件，到11月22號為止，共接獲28起的恐嚇案件，請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來臺灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢？"],["張副局長元斌：這一次比較是恐嚇的信件，或是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息，那裴洛西議長……"],["林委員憶君：因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇訊息。"],["張副局長元斌：有部分，但是又有更多的網駭攻擊，包括它攻陷一些看板去散布一些醜化的訊息，還有它置換部分機關的網站網頁，所以是比較全面性的。這一次比較像是純粹用這種恐嚇信件還有恐嚇訊息來做威懾。"],["林委員憶君：好。請教副局長，中共今年6月也發布了懲獨22條意見，所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄，對於臺灣民眾現在赴大陸工作及旅遊造成很大的風險，國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分我們政府機關也在提醒國人，因為現在中共制定的國安法也好、反滲透法也好，這些法令有些定義是模糊的，可以由它的國安人員或公安人員自由認定，所以對我們赴陸的國人事實上是有一些風險，所以我們也不斷在做這樣的提醒。"],["林委員憶君：所以國安局的意思就是，其實我們是很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施，是嗎？能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心，就等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了，是這個意思就對了？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分等於是中共現在的措施，我們必須讓國人知道，對於國人赴陸的風險，也要讓國人知道，這是我們必須要提醒的。當然政府有相應的作為，譬如說我們的主權捍衛，其實這個部分我們各個權責部門都在做。"],["林委員憶君：其實像法國跟加拿大在2024年就會通過反制長臂管轄的反外國干預法令，我認為這些國家的修法案例是可以作為我們未來修法的重要參考。所以副局長今天回去之後，是否請國安局找時間邀集其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢？"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員的提醒，這些相關的他國措施，我們也會去蒐整，然後來做研析，並提供給相關單位來做評估參考。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來我再請教副局長，中共最近幾年對臺灣利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元，頻率也一直在增加中，尤其是資安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些影音錯假訊息的方式，還有用一些拒絕進口臺灣農產品的手段，作為國家安全應對的主要機關，國安局的人力需求是不是也應該相對地增加這些人力呢？"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員支持我們國安局的工作，還有對於相關預算跟人力的支持，我們局裡針對威脅型態的變化，內部也有做一些任務及重點提醒，以及相關人員培訓，我們相應的各個業務處，針對這些新興威脅，目前都有掌握，也都有應處。"],["林委員憶君：因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年國安局志願士兵的招募情況，我們看一下，從106年開始，國安局的招募率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊，其實這真的是只能用一個慘字來形容啦。根據本席跟國安局索資，送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況，最近是最好的狀況，副局長，你認為呢？你不覺得這個表有一些怪怪的嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素，包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素，這是招募志願役士兵，我們對於招募士兵上有多做一些介紹、宣導，所以在113年，委員可以看到，目前招獲率已經是七成多了、七成六，我們今年還有兩個梯次還沒辦完，所以我想招獲率還會往上提升，我們會持續努力。"],["林委員憶君：主席再給我1分鐘，不好意思。","因為我現在看這個表，112年以前是招募60個人，對吧？112年開始突然砍一半了，變成只有招募30個人，副局長，你把這種招募的目標減成一半，也就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力，因為達不到，乾脆就直接減半嘛，這樣就可以躺平達標，沒事了嘛，如果每年都需要60個人的員額，就應該訂定招募60個人的目標，千萬不要為了讓國安局自己表面上的招募率數字好看，就把目標數減半，因為你們這樣，國安局是不是就變成帶領提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員？所以我還是希望，國安局真的缺多少人，年度目標就一定是要訂多少人，這樣才能真正地解決人力不足的問題。"],["張副局長元斌：是，跟委員報告，我們要招募的員額都是經過精算，按照任務去做核實的估算，然後提出逐年要招募的員額，這個部分我們是這樣在作業，所以謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：因為我想現在的事情真的是越來越多啦，然後你們需要的人應該是越來越多啦，我也很希望國安局真的能夠招募到充足的人力，所以國安局還是加油努力達到目標。"],["張副局長元斌：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員，副局長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}}