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\"有\", \"start\": 698.362, \"end\": 698.502, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 698.502, \"end\": 698.662, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 698.662, \"end\": 698.682, \"score\": 0.096}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,988 --> 00:00:41,753\n請劉秘書長我們請劉秘書長委員長劉秘書長那個勞動部北分署現容那個霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子你應該已經很瞭解了對不對看媒體的報導很多我想請教因為考試院其實對於公務人員不管是權力保障都是至關重要的單位\n\n2\n00:00:42,433 --> 00:01:04,929\n所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工\n\n3\n00:01:07,455 --> 00:01:07,675\n總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n4\n00:01:24,361 --> 00:01:28,425\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n5\n00:01:50,703 --> 00:01:51,504\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n\n6\n00:02:07,247 --> 00:02:11,528\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n7\n00:02:58,241 --> 00:03:17,302\n跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。\n\n8\n00:03:17,662 --> 00:03:18,443\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n9\n00:03:36,665 --> 00:04:00,116\n對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的\n\n10\n00:04:02,398 --> 00:04:15,391\n考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何\n\n11\n00:04:16,513 --> 00:04:20,696\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n\n12\n00:04:46,291 --> 00:05:05,884\n我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑\n\n13\n00:05:12,808 --> 00:05:14,271\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n14\n00:05:24,235 --> 00:05:44,289\n其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的\n\n15\n00:05:45,029 --> 00:05:46,529\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n16\n00:06:11,881 --> 00:06:37,451\n現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命\n\n17\n00:06:38,737 --> 00:06:40,539\n一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n18\n00:06:56,736 --> 00:07:21,938\n已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了\n\n19\n00:07:24,639 --> 00:07:49,656\n那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查\n\n20\n00:07:51,092 --> 00:07:55,874\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金\n\n21\n00:08:19,022 --> 00:08:39,098\n把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對\n\n22\n00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,081\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n\n23\n00:08:52,369 --> 00:08:54,511\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n24\n00:09:14,983 --> 00:09:20,168\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n25\n00:09:32,039 --> 00:09:35,320\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n26\n00:10:03,727 --> 00:10:24,678\n議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定\n\n27\n00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,403\n我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?\n\n28\n00:10:46,428 --> 00:11:05,000\n自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。\n\n29\n00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:28,365\n今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟\n\n30\n00:11:29,266 --> 00:11:38,682\n對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14988\t41753\t請劉秘書長我們請劉秘書長委員長劉秘書長那個勞動部北分署現容那個霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子你應該已經很瞭解了對不對看媒體的報導很多我想請教因為考試院其實對於公務人員不管是權力保障都是至關重要的單位\n42433\t64929\t所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工\n67455\t67675\t總預算案附屬單位預算\n84361\t88425\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n110703\t111504\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n127247\t131528\t關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n154633\t177637\t議員議員議員議員議員議員\n178241\t197302\t跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。\n197662\t198443\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n216665\t240116\t對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的\n242398\t255391\t考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何\n256513\t260696\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n286291\t305884\t我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑\n312808\t314271\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n324235\t344289\t其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的\n345029\t346529\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n371881\t397451\t現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命\n398737\t400539\t一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n416736\t441938\t已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了\n444639\t469656\t那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟 問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查\n471092\t475874\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金\n499022\t519098\t把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對\n520679\t522081\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n532369\t534511\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n554983\t560168\t關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n572039\t575320\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n603727\t624678\t議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定\n629480\t631403\t我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?\n646428\t665000\t自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。\n665720\t688365\t今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟\n689266\t698682\t對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝\n","txt":"請劉秘書長我們請劉秘書長委員長劉秘書長那個勞動部北分署現容那個霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子你應該已經很瞭解了對不對看媒體的報導很多我想請教因為考試院其實對於公務人員不管是權力保障都是至關重要的單位\n所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工\n總預算案附屬單位預算\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n議員議員議員議員議員議員\n跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的\n考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命\n一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了\n那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟 問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金\n把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定\n我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?\n自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。\n今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟\n對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.988 --> 00:41.753\n請劉秘書長我們請劉秘書長委員長劉秘書長那個勞動部北分署現容那個霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子你應該已經很瞭解了對不對看媒體的報導很多我想請教因為考試院其實對於公務人員不管是權力保障都是至關重要的單位\n\n00:42.433 --> 01:04.929\n所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工\n\n01:07.455 --> 01:07.675\n總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n01:24.361 --> 01:28.425\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n01:50.703 --> 01:51.504\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n\n02:07.247 --> 02:11.528\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n02:58.241 --> 03:17.302\n跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。\n\n03:17.662 --> 03:18.443\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n03:36.665 --> 04:00.116\n對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的\n\n04:02.398 --> 04:15.391\n考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何\n\n04:16.513 --> 04:20.696\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n\n04:46.291 --> 05:05.884\n我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑\n\n05:12.808 --> 05:14.271\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n05:24.235 --> 05:44.289\n其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的\n\n05:45.029 --> 05:46.529\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n06:11.881 --> 06:37.451\n現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命\n\n06:38.737 --> 06:40.539\n一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部\n\n06:56.736 --> 07:21.938\n已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了\n\n07:24.639 --> 07:49.656\n那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查\n\n07:51.092 --> 07:55.874\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金\n\n08:19.022 --> 08:39.098\n把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對\n\n08:40.679 --> 08:42.081\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n\n08:52.369 --> 08:54.511\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n09:14.983 --> 09:20.168\n關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n09:32.039 --> 09:35.320\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n10:03.727 --> 10:24.678\n議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定\n\n10:29.480 --> 10:31.403\n我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?\n\n10:46.428 --> 11:05.000\n自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。\n\n11:05.720 --> 11:28.365\n今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟\n\n11:29.266 --> 11:38.682\n對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.988,"end":41.753,"text":"請劉秘書長我們請劉秘書長委員長劉秘書長那個勞動部北分署現容那個霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子你應該已經很瞭解了對不對看媒體的報導很多我想請教因為考試院其實對於公務人員不管是權力保障都是至關重要的單位"},{"start":42.433,"end":64.929,"text":"所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工"},{"start":67.455,"end":67.675,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":84.361,"end":88.425,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":110.703,"end":111.504,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部"},{"start":127.247,"end":131.528,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":154.633,"end":177.637,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":178.241,"end":197.302,"text":"跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。"},{"start":197.662,"end":198.443,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":216.665,"end":240.116,"text":"對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的"},{"start":242.398,"end":255.391,"text":"考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何"},{"start":256.513,"end":260.696,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":286.291,"end":305.884,"text":"我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑"},{"start":312.808,"end":314.271,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":324.235,"end":344.289,"text":"其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的"},{"start":345.029,"end":346.529,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":371.881,"end":397.451,"text":"現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命"},{"start":398.737,"end":400.539,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":416.736,"end":441.938,"text":"已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了"},{"start":444.639,"end":469.656,"text":"那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟 問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查"},{"start":471.092,"end":475.874,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金"},{"start":499.022,"end":519.098,"text":"把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對"},{"start":520.679,"end":522.081,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":532.369,"end":534.511,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":554.983,"end":560.168,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":572.039,"end":575.32,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":603.727,"end":624.678,"text":"議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定"},{"start":629.48,"end":631.403,"text":"我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?"},{"start":646.428,"end":665,"text":"自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。"},{"start":665.72,"end":688.365,"text":"今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟"},{"start":689.266,"end":698.682,"text":"對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1005,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時33分）請劉秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長好。勞動部勞發署北分署謝宜容霸凌員工，導致員工輕生的案子，你應該已經很了解了，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：看媒體的報導很多。"],["羅委員智強：因為考試院對於公務人員的權利保障是至關重要的單位，所以針對這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長，或是相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下。第一個就是謝宜容到底要負擔什麼樣的責任？在公務員的身分上，他如果涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌，這是第一個面向。第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的員工，他可以得到什麼樣的權利保障？首先我也必須表示真的是非常遺憾，我想秘書長大概也知道，因為我看到相關的過程及大家最後揭露的事實真相，這位公務員其實非常認真努力，你看他每天早上大概五、六點就去上班，然後加班到深夜，可是打卡時間竟然是在四點的時候，換言之，面對霸凌的時候，他還是非常努力認真的工作，甚至在選擇輕生的時候，他還把他的工作完成，所以那時候也有他的同仁揭露出來，他把上司不合理要求的工作完成之後，也付出了他的生命。在這樣的情況之下，也顯現出今天公務單位文官系統裡面的問題，事實上，文官的保障不只是外部，甚至內部都出了很多的問題，這真的是一個要好好檢討的地方。我想請教一下，針對謝宜容……當然一般可以區分所謂的刑事、行政跟民事責任。有關刑事的部分，我舉個例子來請教秘書長，你大概也有看到這位分署長謝宜容的辦公室非常奢華，花了很多錢裝潢，然後也耗用很多電費，像這種所謂的機關首長浪費公帑、鋪張奢華，就相關法規而言，有什麼樣的方式可以約束跟規範呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請施部長就服務法的部分來說明？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，雖然服務法都有類似的條文，不過更具體來講就是用考績法，我們的考績法適用到所有的同仁，包括主管。"],["羅委員智強：我要講的就是只剩下考績的……"],["施部長能傑：現在主要還是用考績法。"],["羅委員智強：就是只有打考績的問題而已，所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束？"],["施部長能傑：不是，平常的時候我想機關裡面任何一個主管都有他的上級主管，上級主管是他最重要的……"],["羅委員智強：我就直接講上級主管根本就失控了啊！甚至他的上級主管現在也捲入風暴當中，他的上上級主管現在都已經離職了，基本上找他他就一推二五六啊！"],["施部長能傑：我理解，但是行政機關裡面就是……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長講……"],["施部長能傑：回過頭來還是考績法這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長講，針對今天這件事情，我覺得文官在相關的一些……尤其基層文官、公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下，顯然在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官的威脅跟壓迫，我們的保障是不足的，我不知道考試院和部長有沒有覺得這方面有哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障？"],["施部長能傑：針對這部分的保障，當然如果基層員工對於管理的措施有任何意見，他都有一些管道可以……"],["羅委員智強：不是，我不是跟你講現有的。我請教秘書長好了，你覺得現有的保障機制是足夠的嗎？以這個個案來說。"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對這個個案的發生，我們覺得很遺憾，上個禮拜五我們三個人曾經就這件事情交換意見，我們也覺得現行保障法的機制早就應該強化了。"],["羅委員智強：能不能請秘書長告訴我，在你們開會研析的意見當中，你們的方向是什麼？怎麼補強？我剛剛還只講到奢華，我現在先問完，再問你補強的部分。"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對保障的部分，因為現在大家都說就霸凌這個部分，在相關的法律當中並沒有清楚的定義和定位，就這個部分法制面過去的確做得不足，所以需要來做一些補強，所以我們也在研議要從保障法……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣細部問秘書長好了，剛剛我還講到這位主管奢華，浪費公帑來搞自己辦公室的舒適，霸凌也是啊！顯然目前來講霸凌也是考績問題而已是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對霸凌問題的話，如果以現在的處理，它有懲戒、懲處各種不同的管道。"],["羅委員智強：就是懲戒、懲處嘛，他現在也不在乎懲戒、懲處。我舉一個例子，針對這位分署長，到現在國人覺得最無法忍受的地方在哪裡？就是他還蠻會保護自己的，他非常會保護自己，顯然他也看透了在今天公務員保障系統裡面，相關法律強制力不足的問題，所以你會看到，到現在為止他還是不肯出面，錄個影帶就敷衍了事。我想請問公務機關到底有沒有力量可以強制他至少要出來面對社會大眾說明真相？以目前的機制有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在我看勞動部的處理就是把他記兩大過免職。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是連叫他出來面對、說明真相，我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有，你不覺得嗎？不是嗎？當然是一定要懲處，懲處已經是最低限度了，以他的狀況，他在乎這個懲處嗎？了不起不幹公務員就算了嘛！可是你今天鬧出人命，一個機關有81個人被他逼到離職，真的是離譜到不能再離譜，這種離譜不只是個案的離譜，這種離譜代表什麼？在機制面上，顯然我們對於這種非常離譜、誇張、可惡的官員，已經沒有辦法去約束他嘛！不是嗎？秘書長，你覺得呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況……"],["羅委員智強：我就跟你講，以現在來講，上級機關也失靈了嘛！你今天靠人其實已經走不通了，今天上級機關上面的署長，乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任的勞動部長，前任勞動部長已經走了，現任勞動部長已經請辭了。今天回到這個個案，第二個問題，我要再請教秘書長，也請我們相關的部會留意，我剛剛只是講謝宜容的責任問題，顯然今天很明顯的，除了用考績處分他以外，還真的沒有第二個辦法。我也問秘書長，事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的，你知道吧？是什麼辦法，你知道吧？有一個辦法，就是立法院如果通過聽證調查，可以針對霸凌案，直接就把他叫到國會來做聽證調查，沒錯吧！依照原來國會改革的規劃，沒錯吧！是啊！謝謝秘書長。但是我今天說真的，我對大法官其實是很尊重的，但最近大法官不管是對於實質廢死的判決以及沒收國會改革，就拿國會改革這件事來講，如果國會改革通過，今天就可以把謝宜容叫來立法院，把霸凌的真相完整交代了。我跟秘書長說，我為什麼那麼在乎這件事情？因為你今天不把整個發生的事件過程釐得清清楚楚的話，你沒有辦法找出原因，請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢？秘書長，你說是吧？一定是先把事情釐清嘛，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，現在因為這個案子也會有監察院調查的程序。"],["羅委員智強：我就問你嘛！監察院的調查，我跟你直接保證啦！你相不相信，它的調查一樣就是考績處分而已啦！還能做什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：監察院調查就是懲戒，就是送到懲戒法院。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！最後……"],["劉秘書長建忻：那考績是行政機關有立即的權責……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，送懲戒法院，最後他最多也是不幹公務員嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，但是這個要看政院也有……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果他有涉及刑責也有送檢調。"],["羅委員智強：刑責是有關貪瀆的問題，講的還不是霸凌啦！那是不同的層次啊！他有沒有涉及貪瀆，那是刑事要偵辦，但今天我們面臨的另外一個課題、很嚴肅的課題是公務員的霸凌問題，我直接跟各位講，我就請所有今天在看我們司法及法制委員會質詢的，不是有一個很明顯的結論──拿他沒轍嘛！基本上面對這麼惡質的行為，他事實上是不用付出代價，除了今天叫他滾蛋以外，他不用付出什麼代價的，對他而言，他在乎滾蛋嗎？以媒體報導他的整個家世背景環境，他好像也不用在乎他滾蛋啊！今天最後一個就是回到，請問被霸凌致死的這位認真的公務員，到目前我們的機制能夠給他的保障是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，在保障法裡面，遺族可以依照保障法對於這個事件提起再申訴。"],["羅委員智強：再申訴，然後呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：然後就會送……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的幫助、協助，甚至是補償、賠償，有嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這個在銓敘部的規定有。"],["施部長能傑：我想當事人當然會走撫卹的程序，那……"],["羅委員智強：以目前來看，你覺得撫卹程序會順利嗎？"],["施部長能傑：他就是自殺死亡，當個案送來的時候我們就認定，一定會成立。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送，以自殺死亡的個案來送，對他的保障就足夠嗎？就像剛剛翁曉玲委員問的問題，顯然你們也答不出來，他能不能提起國家賠償？"],["施部長能傑：對，他可以。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得以目前的機制，他提起國家賠償成功的機率如何？"],["施部長能傑：因為這是一個個案，我們都不清楚，他就跟機關提，機關必須要做准駁。"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天如果法制上的規範不足，他在請求權行使上，他的後盾就不夠了，所以我為什麼今天要跟考試院真的拜託，不只考試院跟人事行政總處，真的要會商一下，針對今天這種事情，你沒有一個機制面去防堵、課以這些霸凌長官更嚴格的責任，以及能夠對於受害公務員提供更多的保障，我說真的，這種事件以後可能還會再度發生，難道還要等到悲劇再度發生，大家才有所警覺嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的質詢，秘書長、部長及主委請回。","我們先做會議程序的預告，稍後在林委員思銘詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接續邀請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}}