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00:00:43,990\n委員長秘書長還有蔡主委近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件公務人員保障法第77條我相信你們很清楚\n\n3\n00:00:44,750 --> 00:01:13,144\n第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者至影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答\n\n4\n00:01:15,029 --> 00:01:15,929\n收支部分\n\n5\n00:01:28,564 --> 00:01:29,864\n公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會\n\n6\n00:01:55,814 --> 00:01:57,475\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n\n7\n00:02:17,248 --> 00:02:37,246\n有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案\n\n8\n00:02:38,327 --> 00:02:55,133\n請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫\n\n9\n00:02:56,141 --> 00:03:20,034\n委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講\n\n10\n00:03:21,255 --> 00:03:27,756\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選\n\n11\n00:03:49,621 --> 00:03:53,014\n那身為考試院不管哪一位首長\n\n12\n00:03:54,400 --> 00:04:20,336\n都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的\n\n13\n00:04:21,275 --> 00:04:48,828\n那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎\n\n14\n00:04:50,748 --> 00:05:00,599\n你個資可以不要,你用A軍、B軍或者是張圈圈我們要知道我們要知道這一個部分\n\n15\n00:05:01,783 --> 00:05:07,586\n公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、建任跟委任三種。請教秘書長,你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答。\n\n16\n00:05:23,933 --> 00:05:26,414\n所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多所以下命令的人多\n\n17\n00:05:53,564 --> 00:06:13,554\n做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?小主管對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜每個承辦人其實都很多\n\n18\n00:06:14,594 --> 00:06:16,814\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n19\n00:06:45,061 --> 00:06:46,564\n組織裡面其實並不是不正常。\n\n20\n00:06:47,436 --> 00:07:16,343\n最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道\n\n21\n00:07:17,549 --> 00:07:17,751\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12008\t16197\t謝謝主席本席有請我們的秘書長請劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委\n27499\t43990\t委員長秘書長還有蔡主委近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件公務人員保障法第77條我相信你們很清楚\n44750\t73144\t第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者至影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答\n75029\t75929\t收支部分\n88564\t89864\t公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會\n115814\t117475\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n137248\t157246\t有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案\n158327\t175133\t請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫\n176141\t200034\t委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講\n201255\t207756\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選\n229621\t233014\t那身為考試院不管哪一位首長\n234400\t260336\t都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的\n261275\t288828\t那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎\n290748\t300599\t你個資可以不要,你用A軍、B軍或者是張圈圈我們要知道我們要知道這一個部分\n301783\t307586\t公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、建任跟委任三種。請教秘書長,你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答。\n323933\t326414\t所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多所以下命令的人多\n353564\t373554\t做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?小主管對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜每個承辦人其實都很多\n374594\t376814\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n405061\t406564\t組織裡面其實並不是不正常。\n407436\t436343\t最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道\n437549\t437751\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席本席有請我們的秘書長請劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委\n委員長秘書長還有蔡主委近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件公務人員保障法第77條我相信你們很清楚\n第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者至影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答\n收支部分\n公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案\n請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫\n委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選\n那身為考試院不管哪一位首長\n都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的\n那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎\n你個資可以不要,你用A軍、B軍或者是張圈圈我們要知道我們要知道這一個部分\n公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、建任跟委任三種。請教秘書長,你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答。\n所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多所以下命令的人多\n做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?小主管對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜每個承辦人其實都很多\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n組織裡面其實並不是不正常。\n最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.008 --> 00:16.197\n謝謝主席本席有請我們的秘書長請劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委\n\n00:27.499 --> 00:43.990\n委員長秘書長還有蔡主委近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件公務人員保障法第77條我相信你們很清楚\n\n00:44.750 --> 01:13.144\n第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者至影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答\n\n01:15.029 --> 01:15.929\n收支部分\n\n01:28.564 --> 01:29.864\n公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會\n\n01:55.814 --> 01:57.475\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部\n\n02:17.248 --> 02:37.246\n有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案\n\n02:38.327 --> 02:55.133\n請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫\n\n02:56.141 --> 03:20.034\n委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講\n\n03:21.255 --> 03:27.756\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選\n\n03:49.621 --> 03:53.014\n那身為考試院不管哪一位首長\n\n03:54.400 --> 04:20.336\n都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的\n\n04:21.275 --> 04:48.828\n那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎\n\n04:50.748 --> 05:00.599\n你個資可以不要,你用A軍、B軍或者是張圈圈我們要知道我們要知道這一個部分\n\n05:01.783 --> 05:07.586\n公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、建任跟委任三種。請教秘書長,你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答。\n\n05:23.933 --> 05:26.414\n所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多所以下命令的人多\n\n05:53.564 --> 06:13.554\n做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?小主管對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜每個承辦人其實都很多\n\n06:14.594 --> 06:16.814\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n06:45.061 --> 06:46.564\n組織裡面其實並不是不正常。\n\n06:47.436 --> 07:16.343\n最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道\n\n07:17.549 --> 07:17.751\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.008,"end":16.197,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請我們的秘書長請劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委"},{"start":27.499,"end":43.99,"text":"委員長秘書長還有蔡主委近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件公務人員保障法第77條我相信你們很清楚"},{"start":44.75,"end":73.144,"text":"第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者至影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答"},{"start":75.029,"end":75.929,"text":"收支部分"},{"start":88.564,"end":89.864,"text":"公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會公務員保障培訓委員會"},{"start":115.814,"end":117.475,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部"},{"start":137.248,"end":157.246,"text":"有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案"},{"start":158.327,"end":175.133,"text":"請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫"},{"start":176.141,"end":200.034,"text":"委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講"},{"start":201.255,"end":207.756,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":229.621,"end":233.014,"text":"那身為考試院不管哪一位首長"},{"start":234.4,"end":260.336,"text":"都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的"},{"start":261.275,"end":288.828,"text":"那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎"},{"start":290.748,"end":300.599,"text":"你個資可以不要,你用A軍、B軍或者是張圈圈我們要知道我們要知道這一個部分"},{"start":301.783,"end":307.586,"text":"公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、建任跟委任三種。請教秘書長,你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答。"},{"start":323.933,"end":326.414,"text":"所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多所以下命令的人多"},{"start":353.564,"end":373.554,"text":"做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?小主管對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜每個承辦人其實都很多"},{"start":374.594,"end":376.814,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":405.061,"end":406.564,"text":"組織裡面其實並不是不正常。"},{"start":407.436,"end":436.343,"text":"最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道"},{"start":437.549,"end":437.751,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1185,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時18分）謝謝主席，本席有請我們的秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有保訓會蔡主委。"],["主席：蔡主委。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["徐委員欣瑩：秘書長還有蔡主委，近期內大家都知道全國矚目的勞動部霸凌案件，在公務人員保障法第七十七條，我相信你們很清楚，第一項的規定，「公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或有關工作條件之處置認為不當，致影響其權益者，得依本法提起申訴、再申訴」，可是現在的公務人員，包含勞動部這個案例，他已經很痛苦，在水深火熱之中，請問他有沒有向保訓會提出申訴？有或沒有？請回答。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員說明，依照這個法規，他要先向機關提起申訴，然後他不服就可以到我們這邊再申訴，但是報載的這位當事人並沒有這些動作，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以他沒有跟他的單位申訴或是有跟他的單位申訴但是沒有跟你們申訴。那依法令的規定，你們可不可以主動？因為你們是公務人員保障暨培訓委員會啊！你們可不可以主動？知道有案件，可不可以主動去瞭解、調查和約談？可以嗎？可以或不可以？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：根據保障法的規定，目前是不可以，但是當這個案件進到我們這邊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它哪一條說不可以？哪一條說不可以？它沒有說不可以，但是它也沒有很明確地要你們這樣做，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，目前的法制不行，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以沒有說不可以。等於我們現在的文官，也就是說公務人員他們在水深火熱、在痛苦中，但他們投訴無門。","就本席掌握到最近5年有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件，過去5年來總共收到79件，結果被保訓會駁回的有63件，被你們撤銷的有9案，不受理的有6案，最後行政機關有作為的只有1案，請問秘書長跟主委，你們滿意嗎？因為過去5年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢，也覺得沒有用，所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受，自行解脫。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，我要跟您報告一件事，我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候，它裡面有兩種可能，一個是受害；一個是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有啦！我現在是問你滿意不滿意這種情況，你很滿意這個情況嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意，因為駁回的時候，有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰，來保訓會這邊再申訴，所以他的救濟，簡單講，兩造都可以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有申訴人跟被申訴的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該是說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：被處罰的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，簡單來講，加害者跟被害者如果對結果不服，他都可以來這邊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你不用再去岔題，因為現在你看，從勞動部事件之後，我們每一個人手上都接獲各個單位的霸凌事件，不要講霸凌啦！也許他就是有苦難言，非常的多，從中央到地方大概都有，那身為考試院不管哪一位首長，都應讓臺灣的文官制度更健全，讓所有公務人員可以勇於任事，我們也要保護他們，他們在工作職場的權益我們都該維護，可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法增修條文之後，感覺考試院就變成行政院底下的法制局，本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的，我們希望考試院不管是擔任哪一個職務，真的要為臺灣的公務人員，大家有好的工作環境還有好的制度，才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討，剛剛委員講到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛提的這79案，你們可以給我詳細的說明跟報告嗎？個資可以不要，你用A君、B君，或者是什麼張○○，我們要知道這一個部分，這個可以提供嗎？按照規定。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：去識別化以後，我們可以在保護當事人的資訊底下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們要瞭解。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後請看一下投影片，公務人員依據官等可以分簡任、薦任及委任三種，請教秘書長，你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個？請儘快回答。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我昨天有看到委員對被提名人的質詢，我就直接講，為什麼中間這一層的薦任比例會比較高？是因為我們公部門現在的職務對於職能需求提高了，所以如果是基層委任，它真的是比較事務性質，可是我們越來越多人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在的政府單位和民間不一樣，我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多。"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實民間也是看哪一種性質啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以下命令的人多，做事的人少。"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，他不是下命令的，其實中間的薦任部分，他也是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他也是小主管吧！"],["劉秘書長建忻：可能當小主管，跟下面的承辦人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！小主管多，然後基層人員少，請問你們滿意這種現象嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：但是我跟委員報告，現在地方政府都希望我們不要一直去規定一定要有多少比例是委任的，因為他們要面對的事物越來越複雜，每個承辦人其實都很多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你說這個是每一個單位……"],["劉秘書長建忻：是基於用人需要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：每個單位需要的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：視用人需要，因為政府的事務越來越精緻。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是你們一廂情願，還是真的是這樣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，我跟委員報告，我們之前有降低委任比例，這個改變其實地方政府都非常地感謝，因為他們需要更高階的人力去面對民眾的期待及更多越複雜的服務事項，所以薦任這個部分比較多，在政府這種性質的組織裡面，其實並不是不正常。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我看主席也站起來了。最後就是我們看到冰山的一角，勞發署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷，所以我們覺得機關用人和升遷還是要有一定的合理制度，對於各種人事權，我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的權力，這樣才是國家長治久安之道，好，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝劉秘書長，謝謝部長和主委。","接下來有請伍委員麗華發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}}