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\"這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 407.348, \"end\": 407.529, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 407.529, \"end\": 407.649, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 407.649, \"end\": 408.049, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 408.049, \"end\": 408.309, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 408.309, \"end\": 408.409, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 408.409, \"end\": 408.689, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 408.689, \"end\": 408.789, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 408.789, \"end\": 409.209, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 409.209, \"end\": 409.429, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 409.429, \"end\": 409.569, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 409.569, \"end\": 409.81, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 409.81, \"end\": 409.93, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 409.93, \"end\": 410.05, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 410.05, \"end\": 410.15, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.15, \"end\": 410.39, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 410.39, \"end\": 410.57, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 410.57, \"end\": 410.75, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 410.75, \"end\": 410.89, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.89, \"end\": 411.01, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 411.01, \"end\": 411.17, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 411.17, \"end\": 411.77, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"尋\"}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 411.77, \"end\": 411.991, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 411.991, \"end\": 412.451, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 412.451, \"end\": 412.611, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 412.611, \"end\": 412.831, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 412.831, \"end\": 413.451, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 413.451, \"end\": 413.971, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 413.971, \"end\": 414.132, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 414.132, \"end\": 414.332, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 414.332, \"end\": 415.792, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 415.792, \"end\": 416.032, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 416.032, \"end\": 416.132, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 416.132, \"end\": 416.333, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 416.333, \"end\": 416.513, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 416.513, \"end\": 416.693, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 416.693, \"end\": 416.833, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 416.833, \"end\": 416.933, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 416.933, \"end\": 417.113, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 417.113, \"end\": 417.253, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 417.253, \"end\": 417.453, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 417.453, \"end\": 418.253, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 418.253, \"end\": 419.074, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 419.074, \"end\": 419.394, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 419.394, \"end\": 419.634, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 419.634, \"end\": 420.454, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.454, \"end\": 420.735, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 420.735, \"end\": 420.895, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 420.895, \"end\": 421.395, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 421.395, \"end\": 422.095, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 422.095, \"end\": 422.255, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 422.255, \"end\": 423.416, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 423.416, \"end\": 423.696, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 423.696, \"end\": 424.216, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 424.216, \"end\": 424.356, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 424.356, \"end\": 424.496, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 424.496, \"end\": 424.716, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 424.716, \"end\": 424.937, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 424.937, \"end\": 425.137, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 425.137, \"end\": 425.557, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 425.557, \"end\": 425.697, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 425.697, \"end\": 426.097, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 426.097, \"end\": 426.417, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 426.417, \"end\": 426.537, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 426.537, \"end\": 426.697, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 426.697, \"end\": 426.777, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 426.777, \"end\": 426.957, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 426.957, \"end\": 427.098, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 427.098, \"end\": 427.298, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 427.298, \"end\": 427.498, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 427.498, \"end\": 428.078, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 428.078, \"end\": 428.258, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 428.258, \"end\": 428.398, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 428.398, \"end\": 428.718, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 428.718, \"end\": 428.978, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 428.978, \"end\": 429.158, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 429.158, \"end\": 429.859, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 429.859, \"end\": 430.139, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 430.139, \"end\": 430.359, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 430.359, \"end\": 430.499, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 430.499, \"end\": 430.619, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 430.619, \"end\": 431.279, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 431.279, \"end\": 431.7, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 431.7, \"end\": 431.9, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 431.9, \"end\": 432.48, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 432.48, \"end\": 432.82, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 432.82, \"end\": 433.02, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 433.02, \"end\": 433.34, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 433.34, \"end\": 433.761, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 433.761, \"end\": 434.081, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 434.081, \"end\": 434.101, \"score\": 0.713}]}, {\"start\": 435.554, \"end\": 457.171, \"text\": \"為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 435.554, \"end\": 435.655, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 435.655, \"end\": 435.815, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 435.815, \"end\": 435.835, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 435.835, \"end\": 436.175, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 436.175, \"end\": 436.615, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 436.615, \"end\": 437.336, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 437.336, \"end\": 437.676, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 437.676, \"end\": 438.096, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 438.096, \"end\": 438.957, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 438.957, \"end\": 439.137, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 439.137, \"end\": 440.678, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 440.678, \"end\": 440.919, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 440.919, \"end\": 441.459, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 441.459, \"end\": 441.619, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 441.619, \"end\": 441.799, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 441.799, \"end\": 441.999, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 441.999, \"end\": 442.84, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 442.84, \"end\": 442.98, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 442.98, \"end\": 443.28, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 443.28, \"end\": 443.581, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 443.581, \"end\": 443.841, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 443.841, \"end\": 444.021, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 444.021, \"end\": 444.622, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 444.622, \"end\": 444.882, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 444.882, \"end\": 445.102, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 445.102, \"end\": 445.622, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 445.622, \"end\": 445.963, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 445.963, \"end\": 446.463, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 446.463, \"end\": 446.583, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 446.583, \"end\": 446.883, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 446.883, \"end\": 447.023, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 447.023, \"end\": 447.123, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 447.123, \"end\": 447.284, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 447.284, \"end\": 447.424, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 447.424, \"end\": 447.604, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 447.604, \"end\": 450.386, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 450.386, \"end\": 450.726, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 450.726, \"end\": 451.047, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 451.047, \"end\": 451.447, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 451.447, \"end\": 452.087, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 452.087, \"end\": 452.207, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 452.207, \"end\": 452.328, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 452.328, \"end\": 452.488, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 452.488, \"end\": 453.368, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 453.368, \"end\": 453.528, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 453.528, \"end\": 453.669, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 453.669, \"end\": 454.069, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 454.069, \"end\": 454.229, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 454.229, \"end\": 454.389, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 454.389, \"end\": 454.529, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 454.529, \"end\": 454.93, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 454.93, \"end\": 455.19, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 455.19, \"end\": 455.41, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 455.41, \"end\": 456.231, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 456.231, \"end\": 456.511, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 456.511, \"end\": 456.691, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 456.691, \"end\": 456.991, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 456.991, \"end\": 457.151, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 457.151, \"end\": 457.171, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 458.132, \"end\": 479.979, \"text\": \"那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 458.132, \"end\": 458.672, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 458.672, \"end\": 458.892, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 458.892, \"end\": 459.072, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 459.072, \"end\": 459.232, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 459.232, \"end\": 459.292, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 459.292, \"end\": 459.813, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 459.813, \"end\": 460.053, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 460.053, \"end\": 460.353, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 460.353, \"end\": 460.453, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 460.453, \"end\": 460.573, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 460.573, \"end\": 460.733, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"喊\", \"start\": 460.733, \"end\": 461.493, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 461.493, \"end\": 461.793, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 461.793, \"end\": 462.113, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 462.113, \"end\": 462.413, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 462.413, \"end\": 463.514, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 463.514, \"end\": 464.714, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 464.714, \"end\": 464.934, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 464.934, \"end\": 465.134, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 465.134, \"end\": 465.474, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 465.474, \"end\": 465.554, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 465.554, \"end\": 465.834, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 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00:00:53,384\n就是我在主要討論一下就是這個霸凌的問題那我想說其實事情前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室就我現在目前收到非常多有衛福部的有疾管署的還有調查站調查局調查站的還有社會局的就打電話到我辦公室然後\n\n3\n00:00:54,324 --> 00:00:55,925\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n4\n00:01:14,454 --> 00:01:34,689\n就是他們很多人來這邊的時候都跟我們講說長官就天天罵啦然後不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦然後什麼都對的都長官拿錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯就很多人打電話來都說官官相護那些來的都是來講的都是一些公務員啦所以\n\n5\n00:01:35,630 --> 00:01:52,046\n這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來\n\n6\n00:01:53,137 --> 00:01:55,839\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n\n7\n00:02:20,753 --> 00:02:35,587\n現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容\n\n8\n00:02:36,207 --> 00:03:02,804\n那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是\n\n9\n00:03:04,245 --> 00:03:07,728\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n10\n00:03:20,154 --> 00:03:43,806\n後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別\n\n11\n00:03:45,526 --> 00:04:14,324\n他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為\n\n12\n00:04:15,507 --> 00:04:33,358\n所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來\n\n13\n00:04:36,099 --> 00:04:56,241\n所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過\n\n14\n00:04:57,222 --> 00:05:18,320\n所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員或是那個那個反正我覺得這個我想只要在現場當公務員的多少都能夠體會我的想法我想請問一下就是\n\n15\n00:05:20,254 --> 00:05:35,576\n這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法,那考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關,在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正?有沒有?\n\n16\n00:05:36,016 --> 00:06:03,248\n各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院積極的工作\n\n17\n00:06:06,050 --> 00:06:23,965\n這次勞動部事件沒有出來之前大家就是也不敢多講但這次事情出來之後其實有非常多的人就敢出來說話就像之前有一段時間在燒那個咪兔事件一樣就很多被害人都一個一個出來那目前我們那個人事行政總處他有一個員工職場霸凌防治跟處理流程\n\n18\n00:06:24,525 --> 00:06:44,285\n但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛\n\n19\n00:06:47,348 --> 00:07:14,101\n這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做\n\n20\n00:07:15,554 --> 00:07:37,171\n為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的\n\n21\n00:07:38,132 --> 00:07:59,979\n那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法\n\n22\n00:08:01,034 --> 00:08:02,735\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n23\n00:08:17,819 --> 00:08:20,341\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n24\n00:08:41,155 --> 00:08:41,355\n公務員會比較有保障\n\n25\n00:09:09,398 --> 00:09:35,981\n因為現在公務員大部分的公務員他只有適用保訓會的那個公務人員那個安全衛生辦法就只有這個那這個保障是不是足夠那我可能要麻煩你們能夠去思考就這一次事件發生之後我們能不能夠把這個衛生辦法能夠修正看能不能更保障現在的公務員因為每個打電話過來的人其實他們都是滿腹苦水\n\n26\n00:09:37,861 --> 00:09:38,742\n公務員比勞工更不敢申訴\n\n27\n00:09:48,774 --> 00:10:10,375\n但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險\n\n28\n00:10:11,601 --> 00:10:35,329\n所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿\n\n29\n00:10:36,210 --> 00:10:58,528\n安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法\n\n30\n00:10:58,948 --> 00:11:18,518\n然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。\n\n31\n00:11:19,278 --> 00:11:21,119\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n32\n00:11:57,722 --> 00:11:58,963\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n33\n00:12:16,118 --> 00:12:17,239\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11104\t19355\t謝謝主席,那我們麻煩秘書長以及蔡主委\n28253\t53384\t就是我在主要討論一下就是這個霸凌的問題那我想說其實事情前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室就我現在目前收到非常多有衛福部的有疾管署的還有調查站調查局調查站的還有社會局的就打電話到我辦公室然後\n54324\t55925\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n74454\t94689\t就是他們很多人來這邊的時候都跟我們講說長官就天天罵啦然後不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦然後什麼都對的都長官拿錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯就很多人打電話來都說官官相護那些來的都是來講的都是一些公務員啦所以\n95630\t112046\t這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來\n113137\t115839\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n140753\t155587\t現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容\n156207\t182804\t那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是\n184245\t187728\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n200154\t223806\t後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別\n225526\t254324\t他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為\n255507\t273358\t所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來\n276099\t296241\t所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過\n297222\t318320\t所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員或是那個那個反正我覺得這個我想只要在現場當公務員的多少都能夠體會我的想法我想請問一下就是\n320254\t335576\t這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法,那考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關,在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正?有沒有?\n336016\t363248\t各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院積極的工作\n366050\t383965\t這次勞動部事件沒有出來之前大家就是也不敢多講但這次事情出來之後其實有非常多的人就敢出來說話就像之前有一段時間在燒那個咪兔事件一樣就很多被害人都一個一個出來那目前我們那個人事行政總處他有一個員工職場霸凌防治跟處理流程\n384525\t404285\t但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛\n407348\t434101\t這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做\n435554\t457171\t為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的\n458132\t479979\t那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法\n481034\t482735\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n497819\t500341\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n521155\t521355\t公務員會比較有保障\n549398\t575981\t因為現在公務員大部分的公務員他只有適用保訓會的那個公務人員那個安全衛生辦法就只有這個那這個保障是不是足夠那我可能要麻煩你們能夠去思考就這一次事件發生之後我們能不能夠把這個衛生辦法能夠修正看能不能更保障現在的公務員因為每個打電話過來的人其實他們都是滿腹苦水\n577861\t578742\t公務員比勞工更不敢申訴\n588774\t610375\t但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險\n611601\t635329\t所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿\n636210\t658528\t安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法\n658948\t678518\t然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。\n679278\t681119\t總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算\n701186\t717602\t議員議員議員議員議員\n717722\t718963\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n736118\t737239\t收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那我們麻煩秘書長以及蔡主委\n就是我在主要討論一下就是這個霸凌的問題那我想說其實事情前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室就我現在目前收到非常多有衛福部的有疾管署的還有調查站調查局調查站的還有社會局的就打電話到我辦公室然後\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n就是他們很多人來這邊的時候都跟我們講說長官就天天罵啦然後不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦然後什麼都對的都長官拿錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯就很多人打電話來都說官官相護那些來的都是來講的都是一些公務員啦所以\n這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容\n那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別\n他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為\n所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來\n所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過\n所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員或是那個那個反正我覺得這個我想只要在現場當公務員的多少都能夠體會我的想法我想請問一下就是\n這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法,那考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關,在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正?有沒有?\n各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院積極的工作\n這次勞動部事件沒有出來之前大家就是也不敢多講但這次事情出來之後其實有非常多的人就敢出來說話就像之前有一段時間在燒那個咪兔事件一樣就很多被害人都一個一個出來那目前我們那個人事行政總處他有一個員工職場霸凌防治跟處理流程\n但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛\n這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做\n為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的\n那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n公務員會比較有保障\n因為現在公務員大部分的公務員他只有適用保訓會的那個公務人員那個安全衛生辦法就只有這個那這個保障是不是足夠那我可能要麻煩你們能夠去思考就這一次事件發生之後我們能不能夠把這個衛生辦法能夠修正看能不能更保障現在的公務員因為每個打電話過來的人其實他們都是滿腹苦水\n公務員比勞工更不敢申訴\n但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險\n所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿\n安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法\n然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算\n議員議員議員議員議員\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.104 --> 00:19.355\n謝謝主席,那我們麻煩秘書長以及蔡主委\n\n00:28.253 --> 00:53.384\n就是我在主要討論一下就是這個霸凌的問題那我想說其實事情前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室就我現在目前收到非常多有衛福部的有疾管署的還有調查站調查局調查站的還有社會局的就打電話到我辦公室然後\n\n00:54.324 --> 00:55.925\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n01:14.454 --> 01:34.689\n就是他們很多人來這邊的時候都跟我們講說長官就天天罵啦然後不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦然後什麼都對的都長官拿錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯就很多人打電話來都說官官相護那些來的都是來講的都是一些公務員啦所以\n\n01:35.630 --> 01:52.046\n這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來\n\n01:53.137 --> 01:55.839\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管\n\n02:20.753 --> 02:35.587\n現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容\n\n02:36.207 --> 03:02.804\n那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是\n\n03:04.245 --> 03:07.728\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n03:20.154 --> 03:43.806\n後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別\n\n03:45.526 --> 04:14.324\n他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為\n\n04:15.507 --> 04:33.358\n所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來\n\n04:36.099 --> 04:56.241\n所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過\n\n04:57.222 --> 05:18.320\n所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員或是那個那個反正我覺得這個我想只要在現場當公務員的多少都能夠體會我的想法我想請問一下就是\n\n05:20.254 --> 05:35.576\n這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法,那考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關,在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正?有沒有?\n\n05:36.016 --> 06:03.248\n各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院積極的工作\n\n06:06.050 --> 06:23.965\n這次勞動部事件沒有出來之前大家就是也不敢多講但這次事情出來之後其實有非常多的人就敢出來說話就像之前有一段時間在燒那個咪兔事件一樣就很多被害人都一個一個出來那目前我們那個人事行政總處他有一個員工職場霸凌防治跟處理流程\n\n06:24.525 --> 06:44.285\n但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛\n\n06:47.348 --> 07:14.101\n這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做\n\n07:15.554 --> 07:37.171\n為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的\n\n07:38.132 --> 07:59.979\n那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法\n\n08:01.034 --> 08:02.735\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n08:17.819 --> 08:20.341\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n08:41.155 --> 08:41.355\n公務員會比較有保障\n\n09:09.398 --> 09:35.981\n因為現在公務員大部分的公務員他只有適用保訓會的那個公務人員那個安全衛生辦法就只有這個那這個保障是不是足夠那我可能要麻煩你們能夠去思考就這一次事件發生之後我們能不能夠把這個衛生辦法能夠修正看能不能更保障現在的公務員因為每個打電話過來的人其實他們都是滿腹苦水\n\n09:37.861 --> 09:38.742\n公務員比勞工更不敢申訴\n\n09:48.774 --> 10:10.375\n但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險\n\n10:11.601 --> 10:35.329\n所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿\n\n10:36.210 --> 10:58.528\n安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法\n\n10:58.948 --> 11:18.518\n然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。\n\n11:19.278 --> 11:21.119\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n11:57.722 --> 11:58.963\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分\n\n12:16.118 --> 12:17.239\n收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.104,"end":19.355,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們麻煩秘書長以及蔡主委"},{"start":28.253,"end":53.384,"text":"就是我在主要討論一下就是這個霸凌的問題那我想說其實事情前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室就我現在目前收到非常多有衛福部的有疾管署的還有調查站調查局調查站的還有社會局的就打電話到我辦公室然後"},{"start":54.324,"end":55.925,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":74.454,"end":94.689,"text":"就是他們很多人來這邊的時候都跟我們講說長官就天天罵啦然後不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦然後什麼都對的都長官拿錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯就很多人打電話來都說官官相護那些來的都是來講的都是一些公務員啦所以"},{"start":95.63,"end":112.046,"text":"這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來"},{"start":113.137,"end":115.839,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":140.753,"end":155.587,"text":"現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容"},{"start":156.207,"end":182.804,"text":"那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是"},{"start":184.245,"end":187.728,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":200.154,"end":223.806,"text":"後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別"},{"start":225.526,"end":254.324,"text":"他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為"},{"start":255.507,"end":273.358,"text":"所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來"},{"start":276.099,"end":296.241,"text":"所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過"},{"start":297.222,"end":318.32,"text":"所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員或是那個那個反正我覺得這個我想只要在現場當公務員的多少都能夠體會我的想法我想請問一下就是"},{"start":320.254,"end":335.576,"text":"這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法,那考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關,在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正?有沒有?"},{"start":336.016,"end":363.248,"text":"各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院積極的工作"},{"start":366.05,"end":383.965,"text":"這次勞動部事件沒有出來之前大家就是也不敢多講但這次事情出來之後其實有非常多的人就敢出來說話就像之前有一段時間在燒那個咪兔事件一樣就很多被害人都一個一個出來那目前我們那個人事行政總處他有一個員工職場霸凌防治跟處理流程"},{"start":384.525,"end":404.285,"text":"但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛"},{"start":407.348,"end":434.101,"text":"這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道說如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事至785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做"},{"start":435.554,"end":457.171,"text":"為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個資安法在保障他們但是資安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個資安法所保護的"},{"start":458.132,"end":479.979,"text":"那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併那個列入這治安法的保障範圍內而有蠻多團體出來由書記官的團體警察的團體消防員的團體也有很多公務員的團體都有出來去喊話這個你們大概上網都查得到那我想一下請問一下秘書長你們對這有什麼看法"},{"start":481.034,"end":482.735,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":497.819,"end":500.341,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":521.155,"end":521.355,"text":"公務員會比較有保障"},{"start":549.398,"end":575.981,"text":"因為現在公務員大部分的公務員他只有適用保訓會的那個公務人員那個安全衛生辦法就只有這個那這個保障是不是足夠那我可能要麻煩你們能夠去思考就這一次事件發生之後我們能不能夠把這個衛生辦法能夠修正看能不能更保障現在的公務員因為每個打電話過來的人其實他們都是滿腹苦水"},{"start":577.861,"end":578.742,"text":"公務員比勞工更不敢申訴"},{"start":588.774,"end":610.375,"text":"但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險"},{"start":611.601,"end":635.329,"text":"所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿"},{"start":636.21,"end":658.528,"text":"安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法"},{"start":658.948,"end":678.518,"text":"然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。"},{"start":679.278,"end":681.119,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":701.186,"end":717.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":717.722,"end":718.963,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":736.118,"end":737.239,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1278,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩請秘書長以及蔡主委。"],["主席：請劉秘書長、蔡主委。"],["劉秘書長建忻：吳委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長早，蔡主委早。我現在主要討論一下這個霸凌的問題，前陣子勞動部發生那件事情之後，其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室，我目前收到非常多，有衛福部的，有疾管署的，還有調查局、調查站的，還有社會局的，都打電話到我辦公室來申訴一些事情。因為我辦公室大部分的人都是從公部門來，我自己也當公務員二十幾年了，所以這次看到勞動部說「目的良善」，我們覺得這是滿離譜的一個說詞啦！","很多人來這邊的時候，都跟我們講說這個長官就天天罵啦！不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦！然後對的都長官拿，錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯，很多人打電話來都說是官官相護。來講的都是一些公務員，所以這是一個長期的問題，為什麼這個會期我們一直在推揭弊者保護法？因為我們總是覺得還是要讓機關、公部門或是一些國營企業，甚至有人認為私部門也要，要有一些人能夠勇於出來揭開弊案，然後揭開這些弊案之後，法律、政府必須要保障他的人身安全還有工作權，那這個才能夠攤開在陽光下。","我想請問考試院一個很基本的問題，最近勞動部發生這件事情，那考試院有沒有定義什麼叫做霸凌？這邊有沒有一個定義？因為很多東西應該都是你們主管的，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：考試院主管法規裡面，目前並沒有霸凌的定義，現在霸凌的定義在人事總處的指引裡面是有一個說明，它也參考了勞動部那個指引中對職場霸凌的內容，當然這個部分如果接下來在法制化的過程中，我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，可能秘書長你們要稍微思考這個點，因為這個名詞就是太不確定的法律概念了，所以有的人打電話過來講了半天，我們的同仁很多都當過公務員，他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂「霸凌」這兩個字的定義，也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的定義出來，到底怎麼樣子是很淺的管理不當，有的是不是已經上升到霸凌的程度，被害者也不知道該怎麼講，那我們接受他們打電話過來詢問的，我們也不知道要怎麼去定義，所以這一塊可能要麻煩你們也要有一個態度出來。"],["劉秘書長建忻：後面修法的過程中，會把各位委員的意見都納入思考跟討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，為什麼我會這樣提？因為我昨天有開一個公聽會，就是打詐欺、打詐的公聽會，其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓民眾知道什麼樣的東西可能是詐騙的訊息，所以識詐是在打詐之前，要怎麼樣辨別自己已經受騙；一樣的，怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題，所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點。","就像剛剛很多人在批評剛上任的勞動部部長洪申翰，說他19日在一個節目裡面就有透露，說他在公務員輕生之前就有聽過謝宜容的「鬼故事」，他也有向勞動部反映，但是即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映，也毫無作為，所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢？變成說現行保障公務員的規定已經失靈了嘛！那考試院，這是你們一個很重要的職責啊！你們不能到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來，所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們，因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌，他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴。","其實我跟你講，敢出來申訴的公務員已經很少了，我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候，也沒少過被長官霸凌啦！我這輩子沒有申訴過，而且檢察官、法官都還是獨立辦案、有一定的權力，更不要講基層公務員或是那個……就是這樣，我覺得現場只要有當過公務員的，多多少少都能夠體會我的想法。我想請問一下，針對這一次事件，勞動部有說要修職安法，考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關，在這個事件發生之後，有沒有去思考就公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法去做修正？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有施部長就這個新聞事件交換意見的時候，我們也覺得法制面的部分，包含保障法和安衛辦法的部分都可以來強化，把這個霸凌做法制化的研究。昨天在立法院審查考試院被提名人的時候，院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示，所以我想這個會是接下來考試院最積極的工作。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，秘書長，因為這一次勞動部的事情沒有出來之前，大家也不敢多講，但這件事情出來之後，其實有非常多人就敢出來說話，就像之前有一段時間在燒#MeToo事件一樣，很多被害人都一個一個出來，目前我們的人事行政總處有一個員工職場霸凌防治及處理流程，但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業規定，其實到現在也都不知道。機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果，就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果，最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴，到時候還是要換你們頭痛啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：機制要更明確一點，我想就是讓員工知道，如果發生事情時，他應該要尋求什麼管道來處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：釋字第785號其實也有提到，我們要保障政府公務員的健康權，這個也是考試院業務的重中之重，因此，麻煩你們要去思考，在發生了這件事情之後，考試院到底能為公務員做什麼？相關的修法該怎麼做？","為什麼今天我會提這個？其實我國的勞工有職安法給予保障，但是職安法適用到的公職人員可能僅止於公職的醫護人員或教師，除此之外的公務員並不被職安法所保護。最近有滿多團體出來喊話，希望把公務員一併列入職安法的保障範圍內，像是書記官的團體、警察的團體、消防員的團體及其他許多公務員的團體，你們上網應該都查得到。請問秘書長，你們對這個有什麼看法？"],["劉秘書長建忻：第一個是現在公部門的部分，其實也有5個類別的機關必須適用職安法，所以職安法還是觸及了部分的公務人員。當然，其他部分沒有全面適用的，其實各機關都應該要善盡自己的管理責任。今天如果上級機關對於所有的監督責任都免責，但是將它集中在某一個機關，譬如都是在職安署的部分處理，我想他們的工作量及業管範圍也會變大。"],["吳委員宗憲：為什麼我要提這個？最主要還是希望引入外部的力量來監督，很多東西如果讓內部自己申訴的話，問題是我的霸凌來源就是我的長官，所以我要去向他申訴嗎？或是去向他挑選的幹部申訴嗎？這樣我不是找死嗎？因此，這個就變得沒有任何意義。很多時候我覺得制度要能儘量引入外部的一些力量來監督，可能對公務員會比較有保障。現在大部分公務員只適用保訓會的公務人員安全衛生辦法、現在就只有這個，但這個保障是不是足夠？可能要麻煩你們去思考，就這次事件發生之後，我們是否能夠修正這個衛生辦法，看看是否能夠更保障現在的公務員。因為每個打電話過來的人都是滿腹苦水，我們都是公務員出身的、我們都很清楚公部門有什麼樣的問題，而且公務員又比勞工更不敢申訴，我想都是這個樣子。事實上，我能夠理解為什麼很多單位、很多團體會出來希望公務員也一併適用職安法，因為職場上的安全、危險、健康或不健康及職災的風險等等，其實並沒有分公部門或私部門，大家都一樣危險啦！因此，我希望對於公務員的保障儘量能夠更普遍一點、更良善一點。"],["劉秘書長建忻：安衛辦法本來就有修改、研修的計畫，我們會與接下來保障法的修法一併處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一份？因為你們要修改辦法很快啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：報告委員，其實安衛辦法本來就有修改計畫，但是因為它一直與消防員安全提升的議題一起被討論，所以當時就對於是修安衛辦法、或是用職安法、或是用消防法，哪一個管道來處理會比較適當？最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改，因此，我們會搭配三讀後的消防法，設計我們這邊對於職務相關風險的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩你們將相關資料提供給我們，畢竟我的辦公室裡主要還是法律人才，希望能夠給我們看一下，如果有這個能力可以給一點建議，我們也希望能給一些建議。"],["劉秘書長建忻：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙，每一位都在公部門待了十幾、二十年，對於很多東西都會有同感，因為現在有少部分長官的位子都變成是一種酬庸，所以他們對這個職務不一定真的能夠理解。","最後一個，還是一樣滿希望就申訴的部分能夠引入外部的單位，在你們設計制度的時候要去思考，有沒有辦法引入外部單位或外部的人去看到底有沒有霸凌或是能改善什麼，否則，真的很多人會因為害怕秋後算帳而不敢說。像我自己是念公共衛生的，我們都知道在社會致病因子裡面，職場霸凌是其中一項，而且西方與我們亞洲都是一樣的觀念。一個人成年之後的社會致病因子，其中職場霸凌是一個非常重要的社會致病因子，它會導致你生病、導致你的生活出問題，這一塊真的是不分勞工或公務員，一定要麻煩你們就公務員的部分能夠積極有所作為。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝秘書長。"],["主席：謝謝召委、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長。","我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間於詢答結束後繼續進行至預算解凍案處理完畢為止。","接著請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}}