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00:00:57,103\n是不是從台電的系統去做制度?\n\n5\n00:00:57,103 --> 00:01:22,973\n不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是\n\n6\n00:01:23,553 --> 00:01:37,077\n所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔\n\n7\n00:01:45,081 --> 00:02:10,594\n他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告\n\n8\n00:02:11,594 --> 00:02:31,400\n後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型\n\n9\n00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:31,900\n〔記者訪問〕\n\n10\n00:02:49,935 --> 00:03:14,137\n所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛對不對好現在的問題就是這樣我們高價短購綠電但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的那我們又不能隨便漲電價對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊\n\n11\n00:03:15,859 --> 00:03:37,388\n也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊\n\n12\n00:03:37,748 --> 00:04:06,445\n上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來\n\n13\n00:04:07,509 --> 00:04:13,362\n所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎\n\n14\n00:04:14,793 --> 00:04:36,849\n你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會\n\n15\n00:04:38,470 --> 00:05:07,916\n不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?\n\n16\n00:05:09,404 --> 00:05:32,786\n目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善\n\n17\n00:05:33,447 --> 00:05:33,567\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n191\t752\t法定人數不足\n16496\t31850\t委員好 委員好 這個怎麼陳啟玉啊這些王八蛋 混蛋透頂這個我相信新任的行政院包含郭部長在內應該也想掃蕩這些所謂的綠能蟑螂就是說運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是這些錢都賺誰的錢\n35680\t53201\t其實都是賺政府的錢對不對因為你不管是成立什麼樣的子公司開什麼樣的案子最後賣出去的對象不是台電就是所謂的國營企業等等對不對部長你的這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢最後發出來的電他們賺錢都從哪裡來是不是都是賣給台電\n55382\t57103\t是不是從台電的系統去做制度?\n57103\t82973\t不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是\n83553\t97077\t所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔\n105081\t130594\t他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告\n131594\t151400\t後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型\n151880\t151900\t〔記者訪問〕\n169935\t194137\t所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦 但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛 對不對好 現在的問題就是這樣 我們高價短購綠電 但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的 那我們又不能隨便漲電價 對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電 但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊\n195859\t217388\t也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊\n217748\t246445\t上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來\n247509\t253362\t所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎\n254793\t276849\t你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會\n278470\t307916\t不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?\n309404\t332786\t目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善\n333447\t333567\t主席\n","txt":"法定人數不足\n委員好 委員好 這個怎麼陳啟玉啊這些王八蛋 混蛋透頂這個我相信新任的行政院包含郭部長在內應該也想掃蕩這些所謂的綠能蟑螂就是說運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是這些錢都賺誰的錢\n其實都是賺政府的錢對不對因為你不管是成立什麼樣的子公司開什麼樣的案子最後賣出去的對象不是台電就是所謂的國營企業等等對不對部長你的這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢最後發出來的電他們賺錢都從哪裡來是不是都是賣給台電\n是不是從台電的系統去做制度?\n不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是\n所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔\n他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告\n後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型\n〔記者訪問〕\n所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦 但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛 對不對好 現在的問題就是這樣 我們高價短購綠電 但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的 那我們又不能隨便漲電價 對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電 但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊\n也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊\n上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來\n所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎\n你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會\n不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?\n目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.191 --> 00:00.752\n法定人數不足\n\n00:16.496 --> 00:31.850\n委員好委員好這個怎麼陳啟玉啊這些王八蛋混蛋透頂這個我相信新任的行政院包含郭部長在內應該也想掃蕩這些所謂的綠能蟑螂就是說運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是這些錢都賺誰的錢\n\n00:35.680 --> 00:53.201\n其實都是賺政府的錢對不對因為你不管是成立什麼樣的子公司開什麼樣的案子最後賣出去的對象不是台電就是所謂的國營企業等等對不對部長你的這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢最後發出來的電他們賺錢都從哪裡來是不是都是賣給台電\n\n00:55.382 --> 00:57.103\n是不是從台電的系統去做制度?\n\n00:57.103 --> 01:22.973\n不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是\n\n01:23.553 --> 01:37.077\n所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔\n\n01:45.081 --> 02:10.594\n他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告\n\n02:11.594 --> 02:31.400\n後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型\n\n02:31.880 --> 02:31.900\n〔記者訪問〕\n\n02:49.935 --> 03:14.137\n所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛對不對好現在的問題就是這樣我們高價短購綠電但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的那我們又不能隨便漲電價對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊\n\n03:15.859 --> 03:37.388\n也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊\n\n03:37.748 --> 04:06.445\n上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來\n\n04:07.509 --> 04:13.362\n所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎\n\n04:14.793 --> 04:36.849\n你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會\n\n04:38.470 --> 05:07.916\n不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?\n\n05:09.404 --> 05:32.786\n目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善\n\n05:33.447 --> 05:33.567\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.191,"end":0.752,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16.496,"end":31.85,"text":"委員好 委員好 這個怎麼陳啟玉啊這些王八蛋 混蛋透頂這個我相信新任的行政院包含郭部長在內應該也想掃蕩這些所謂的綠能蟑螂就是說運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是這些錢都賺誰的錢"},{"start":35.68,"end":53.201,"text":"其實都是賺政府的錢對不對因為你不管是成立什麼樣的子公司開什麼樣的案子最後賣出去的對象不是台電就是所謂的國營企業等等對不對部長你的這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢最後發出來的電他們賺錢都從哪裡來是不是都是賣給台電"},{"start":55.382,"end":57.103,"text":"是不是從台電的系統去做制度?"},{"start":57.103,"end":82.973,"text":"不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是"},{"start":83.553,"end":97.077,"text":"所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔"},{"start":105.081,"end":130.594,"text":"他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告"},{"start":131.594,"end":151.4,"text":"後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型"},{"start":151.88,"end":151.9,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":169.935,"end":194.137,"text":"所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦 但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛 對不對好 現在的問題就是這樣 我們高價短購綠電 但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的 那我們又不能隨便漲電價 對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電 但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊"},{"start":195.859,"end":217.388,"text":"也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊"},{"start":217.748,"end":246.445,"text":"上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來"},{"start":247.509,"end":253.362,"text":"所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎"},{"start":254.793,"end":276.849,"text":"你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會"},{"start":278.47,"end":307.916,"text":"不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?"},{"start":309.404,"end":332.786,"text":"目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善"},{"start":333.447,"end":333.567,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時55分）謝謝主席。郭部長有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：午安。陳啟昱這些王八蛋，渾蛋透頂。我相信新任的行政院官員，包含郭部長在內，應該很想掃蕩這些綠能蟑螂，就是運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢的人。但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是，這些錢都是賺誰的錢？其實都是賺政府的錢，對不對？因為不管是成立什麼樣的子公司，開什麼樣的案子，最後賣出去的對象不是台電，就是所謂的國營企業等等，對不對？部長。這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢，最後發出來的電，他們賺的錢，都從哪裡來？是不是都是賣給台電？是不是都是從台電的系統去支出？"],["郭部長智輝：不過我們不一定會跟他們買特別貴的電啊。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是你就有一個躉購的機制嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：那個電的錢，應該不是賺國家的錢，應該是賺廠商的錢，而不是賺台電的錢。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展，台電的財務壓力會大幅上升？其實我們在之前總質詢都討論過了，對不對？就是說台電的成本還是相對高的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的錢，不是說只有針對這一家買會比較好，而是……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都一樣嘛。但是它是一個相對優惠的價格，你不反對嘛？對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我在想，剛才委員垂詢的這一部分，對不起，容我再表達一下……"],["牛委員煦庭：你再消化一下，但是到最後都是台電要買單嘛？因為到時候都是送到台電裡面，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：要嘛就是我們的政策有錯誤……"],["牛委員煦庭：它就會形成台電的成本嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會賣出去？"],["郭部長智輝：它也可以賣給外面的廠商。"],["牛委員煦庭：它也可以賣給外面的廠商，這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算，今天財政委員會跟經濟委員會也聯席在審查追加預算，其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好，所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼，對不對？那今天我們如果沒有把這件事情講清楚，沒有導引一些政策的改變，你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情，台電的錢坑其實很難解。上一次我們在總質詢的時候，我們要求你照財務模型去提報告，後來你也沒有提，只有給我兩張書面回覆，這是不夠的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：要花時間寫，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們年底的時候會提出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：年底的時候會寫？好，這個部分我希望你比照企業的規格來寫，讓財務的部分更透明，這是第一個。"],["郭部長智輝：我會用三張表來表達，就是損益表、資產負債表跟現金流量表。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也希望還有預估的模型，你在企業的時候，多少都會做一些預估的模型，包含未來幾年預估的能源價格等等。"],["郭部長智輝：對啊。那個從財務報表裡面就可以去演示。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。現在核心的問題還是一樣，也就是說，我們會用一個相對比較昂貴的成本或比較高的價格去躉購綠電，但是真的從台電裡面專案放出去的比例其實是相對低的，我們大概發了兩百多億度的綠電，但是真正在市場流通的大概只有15億度，其他統統都進台電大水庫嘛，對不對？現在的問題就是，我們高價躉購綠電，就是綠電進了台電的大水庫之後，電價是統一的，我們又不能隨便漲電價，所以實務上來講，就是綠電高額的發電，但是其實沒有辦法回收，這個就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因。我之前注意到，部長曾經有提一個概念，叫做所謂綠電分艙，也就是說用不同的價格來計算，我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好，對不對？這個制度好的地方，第一個，可以跟國際接軌，國際上大部分有在推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分艙，高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買，反正企業有需求。第二個就是簡單明瞭，在行政作業的程序上，改一改電費單就好了嘛，對不對？第三個是符合你的政策承諾，上次我們在總質詢的時候，你講這個因應企業需要的綠能比較多，因為全世界推行淨零碳排，所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本，那就用分艙的方式來處理。我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的，你自己曾經在6月的時候有提你正在研擬這件事情，7月的時候接受專訪，你又再講一次這件事情，那請問到了現在進度是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在進度還是持續在進行中，我們現在要先把公司設立起來，所以我們現在在進行中。"],["牛委員煦庭：你做綠電分艙，甚至連公司都不用設立，你修改台電收電費的方式，不就好了嗎？你現在還去搞一些公司或是叫中鋼……那個就是老調重彈嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：台電也有在準備。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要問的就是這樣子的政策的進度，這個政策我認為有助於改善台電的財務結構，那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼？我很擔心，你6月、7月講的話，讓大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子，然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來，你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊？"],["郭部長智輝：不會，不會，不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會不會船過水無痕？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：不會？會做？什麼時候做？你6月說2025年要做，2025年要做的話，相對來講，你這個時候應該要有詳細的內容，有做嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在如果跟其他的部會談過了以後就會很快進行。"],["牛委員煦庭：跟其他的部會談，有沒有遇到什麼阻力？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：都沒有？就非常順利地一路往前？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：又變成你希望。"],["郭部長智輝：我到目前沒有碰到困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前沒有碰到困難。"],["郭部長智輝：我不能夠預測未來是不是會碰到困難，所以我只能這樣跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你有沒有具體的時間表呢？目前為止很順利，那明年下半年或後年上路，有沒有具體的時間表？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，方向是這樣子，但是我們應該還要跟電價審議委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我跟你講，到最後預算審查的時候，我希望有一個更加具體的說明，你總是要讓大家知道台電的財務正在改善，你才有辦法說這個大額的補貼下不為例嘛。其實我的概念就是這樣而已啊。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但不要說目前很順利，然後後來又沒有然後，這樣很奇怪。在審議的時候，我希望可以提交詳細的報告，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","林月琴","蔡易餘","黃國昌","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","何欣純","葉元之","林倩綺","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00012"}}}