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\"國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 498.628, \"end\": 499.268, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 499.268, \"end\": 499.568, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 499.568, \"end\": 499.809, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 499.809, \"end\": 499.989, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 499.989, \"end\": 500.229, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 500.229, \"end\": 500.429, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.429, \"end\": 500.649, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 500.649, \"end\": 500.829, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 500.829, \"end\": 501.049, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 501.049, \"end\": 501.249, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 501.249, \"end\": 501.749, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"﹖\"}, {\"word\": 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641.311, \"end\": 641.351, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 641.351, \"end\": 641.371, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"餘\"}, {\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 641.371, \"end\": 641.511, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 641.511, \"end\": 641.531, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"餘\"}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"卿\", \"start\": 661.861, \"end\": 661.881, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,979 --> 00:00:18,363\n經濟部聯次長和國營事業管理司副司長\n\n2\n00:00:28,090 --> 00:00:46,109\n市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們\n\n3\n00:00:47,824 --> 00:00:53,188\n我實在是在納悶啦,像這樣的一個產業園區,它跟一般的土地的出租不一樣,一個產業園區是要廠商去興建\n\n4\n00:01:09,658 --> 00:01:26,398\n阿去興建他有那個建廠的一個成本那你一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目\n\n5\n00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:53,100\n那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡啊也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整一些調整的方法呢我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好因為現在園區的話這邊也是租嘛但是那個方式只租不售嘛因為其他你說像其他的一個招商\n\n6\n00:01:54,181 --> 00:01:57,682\n蔡易餘那就是涉算20年租金的一個涉算（所以這起來（那個新聞是一開始（新聞都是發生在最一開始（\n\n7\n00:02:09,485 --> 00:02:10,165\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n8\n00:02:38,545 --> 00:02:39,846\n財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長\n\n9\n00:03:07,096 --> 00:03:31,118\n委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在\n\n10\n00:03:31,718 --> 00:03:56,186\n那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分\n\n11\n00:03:57,581 --> 00:04:21,960\n這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算\n\n12\n00:04:22,981 --> 00:04:45,014\n他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔\n\n13\n00:04:48,077 --> 00:04:54,849\n所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平\n\n14\n00:04:59,318 --> 00:05:19,435\n所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?\n\n15\n00:05:20,955 --> 00:05:36,244\n委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以\n\n16\n00:05:36,684 --> 00:06:03,912\n我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外\n\n17\n00:06:04,332 --> 00:06:04,972\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易\n\n18\n00:06:23,897 --> 00:06:24,297\n這就是最大的核心所在\n\n19\n00:06:41,264 --> 00:07:00,712\n所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電\n\n20\n00:07:01,912 --> 00:07:02,452\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n21\n00:07:26,846 --> 00:07:50,997\n你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說\n\n22\n00:07:52,217 --> 00:08:16,508\n而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在\n\n23\n00:08:18,628 --> 00:08:24,729\n國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖\n\n24\n00:08:44,033 --> 00:09:04,090\n就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛\n\n25\n00:09:08,305 --> 00:09:08,465\n對於月基層（\n\n26\n00:09:24,161 --> 00:09:40,238\n臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府\n\n27\n00:09:40,618 --> 00:09:40,978\n蔡易餘發言委員\n\n28\n00:10:02,179 --> 00:10:14,445\n日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?\n\n29\n00:10:18,903 --> 00:10:39,090\n統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。\n\n30\n00:10:41,311 --> 00:10:41,531\n蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n31\n00:11:01,861 --> 00:11:01,881\n楊卿\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13979\t18363\t經濟部聯次長和國營事業管理司副司長\n28090\t46109\t市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們\n47824\t53188\t我實在是在納悶啦,像這樣的一個產業園區,它跟一般的土地的出租不一樣,一個產業園區是要廠商去興建\n69658\t86398\t阿去興建他有那個建廠的一個成本那你一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目\n87159\t113100\t那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡啊也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整一些調整的方法呢我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好因為現在園區的話這邊也是租嘛但是那個方式只租不售嘛因為其他你說像其他的一個招商\n114181\t117682\t蔡易餘那就是涉算20年租金的一個涉算（所以這起來（那個新聞是一開始（新聞都是發生在最一開始（\n129485\t130165\t蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘\n158545\t159846\t財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長\n187096\t211118\t委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在\n211718\t236186\t那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分\n237581\t261960\t這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算\n262981\t285014\t他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔\n288077\t294849\t所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平\n299318\t319435\t所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?\n320955\t336244\t委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以\n336684\t363912\t我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外\n364332\t364972\t蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易\n383897\t384297\t這就是最大的核心所在\n401264\t420712\t所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電\n421912\t422452\t蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n446846\t470997\t你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說\n472217\t496508\t而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在\n498628\t504729\t國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖\n524033\t544090\t就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛\n548305\t548465\t對於月基層（\n564161\t580238\t臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府\n580618\t580978\t蔡易餘發言委員\n602179\t614445\t日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?\n618903\t639090\t統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。\n641311\t641531\t蔡易餘 蔡易餘\n661861\t661881\t楊卿\n","txt":"經濟部聯次長和國營事業管理司副司長\n市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們\n我實在是在納悶啦,像這樣的一個產業園區,它跟一般的土地的出租不一樣,一個產業園區是要廠商去興建\n阿去興建他有那個建廠的一個成本那你一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目\n那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡啊也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整一些調整的方法呢我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好因為現在園區的話這邊也是租嘛但是那個方式只租不售嘛因為其他你說像其他的一個招商\n蔡易餘那就是涉算20年租金的一個涉算（所以這起來（那個新聞是一開始（新聞都是發生在最一開始（\n蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘\n財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長\n委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在\n那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分\n這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算\n他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔\n所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平\n所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?\n委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以\n我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易\n這就是最大的核心所在\n所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說\n而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在\n國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖\n就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛\n對於月基層（\n臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府\n蔡易餘發言委員\n日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?\n統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。\n蔡易餘 蔡易餘\n楊卿\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.979 --> 00:18.363\n經濟部聯次長和國營事業管理司副司長\n\n00:28.090 --> 00:46.109\n市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們\n\n00:47.824 --> 00:53.188\n我實在是在納悶啦,像這樣的一個產業園區,它跟一般的土地的出租不一樣,一個產業園區是要廠商去興建\n\n01:09.658 --> 01:26.398\n阿去興建他有那個建廠的一個成本那你一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目\n\n01:27.159 --> 01:53.100\n那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡啊也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整一些調整的方法呢我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好因為現在園區的話這邊也是租嘛但是那個方式只租不售嘛因為其他你說像其他的一個招商\n\n01:54.181 --> 01:57.682\n蔡易餘那就是涉算20年租金的一個涉算（所以這起來（那個新聞是一開始（新聞都是發生在最一開始（\n\n02:09.485 --> 02:10.165\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n02:38.545 --> 02:39.846\n財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長\n\n03:07.096 --> 03:31.118\n委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在\n\n03:31.718 --> 03:56.186\n那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分\n\n03:57.581 --> 04:21.960\n這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算\n\n04:22.981 --> 04:45.014\n他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔\n\n04:48.077 --> 04:54.849\n所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平\n\n04:59.318 --> 05:19.435\n所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?\n\n05:20.955 --> 05:36.244\n委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以\n\n05:36.684 --> 06:03.912\n我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外\n\n06:04.332 --> 06:04.972\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易\n\n06:23.897 --> 06:24.297\n這就是最大的核心所在\n\n06:41.264 --> 07:00.712\n所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電\n\n07:01.912 --> 07:02.452\n蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n07:26.846 --> 07:50.997\n你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說\n\n07:52.217 --> 08:16.508\n而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在\n\n08:18.628 --> 08:24.729\n國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖\n\n08:44.033 --> 09:04.090\n就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛\n\n09:08.305 --> 09:08.465\n對於月基層（\n\n09:24.161 --> 09:40.238\n臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府\n\n09:40.618 --> 09:40.978\n蔡易餘發言委員\n\n10:02.179 --> 10:14.445\n日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?\n\n10:18.903 --> 10:39.090\n統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。\n\n10:41.311 --> 10:41.531\n蔡易餘蔡易餘\n\n11:01.861 --> 11:01.881\n楊卿\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.979,"end":18.363,"text":"經濟部聯次長和國營事業管理司副司長"},{"start":28.09,"end":46.109,"text":"市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們"},{"start":47.824,"end":53.188,"text":"我實在是在納悶啦,像這樣的一個產業園區,它跟一般的土地的出租不一樣,一個產業園區是要廠商去興建"},{"start":69.658,"end":86.398,"text":"阿去興建他有那個建廠的一個成本那你一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目"},{"start":87.159,"end":113.1,"text":"那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡啊也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整一些調整的方法呢我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好因為現在園區的話這邊也是租嘛但是那個方式只租不售嘛因為其他你說像其他的一個招商"},{"start":114.181,"end":117.682,"text":"蔡易餘那就是涉算20年租金的一個涉算（所以這起來（那個新聞是一開始（新聞都是發生在最一開始（"},{"start":129.485,"end":130.165,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":158.545,"end":159.846,"text":"財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長"},{"start":187.096,"end":211.118,"text":"委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在"},{"start":211.718,"end":236.186,"text":"那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分"},{"start":237.581,"end":261.96,"text":"這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算"},{"start":262.981,"end":285.014,"text":"他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔"},{"start":288.077,"end":294.849,"text":"所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平"},{"start":299.318,"end":319.435,"text":"所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?"},{"start":320.955,"end":336.244,"text":"委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以"},{"start":336.684,"end":363.912,"text":"我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外"},{"start":364.332,"end":364.972,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易"},{"start":383.897,"end":384.297,"text":"這就是最大的核心所在"},{"start":401.264,"end":420.712,"text":"所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電"},{"start":421.912,"end":422.452,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":446.846,"end":470.997,"text":"你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說"},{"start":472.217,"end":496.508,"text":"而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在"},{"start":498.628,"end":504.729,"text":"國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖"},{"start":524.033,"end":544.09,"text":"就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛"},{"start":548.305,"end":548.465,"text":"對於月基層（"},{"start":564.161,"end":580.238,"text":"臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府"},{"start":580.618,"end":580.978,"text":"蔡易餘發言委員"},{"start":602.179,"end":614.445,"text":"日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?"},{"start":618.903,"end":639.09,"text":"統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。"},{"start":641.311,"end":641.531,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":661.861,"end":661.881,"text":"楊卿"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時56分）請經濟部連次長、國營事業管理司副司長。"],["主席：請經濟部連次長及國營事業劉副司長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，有關嘉義馬稠後二期產業園區開發，目前台糖大概有100公頃的土地在招商，這個招商的問題次長應該也知道，台糖他們除了租金以外，還要收20年訂金，這個很容易讓產業卻步。我實在是在納悶，像這樣的一個產業園區，它跟一般土地的出租不一樣，因為產業園區是要廠商去興建，所以會有建廠的成本，那你一開始就要給他收20年的租金，對他們來說前期的投資就會過多，所以這件事呈現起來就會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的項目，經濟部現在也在嘉義這裡協助台糖招商，也因為這件事情，然後有廠商就有不同的意見。經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通，對這件事是否可以有一些調整的方法呢？"],["連次長錦漳：我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好？因為現在園區這邊也是租嘛，但是那個方式是……"],["蔡委員易餘：只租不售嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為其他的招商……"],["連次長錦漳：台糖應該是收權利金啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：權利金是設算20年嘛，20年租金的一個設算，但是這樣看起來，其實成本都是發生在最開始之初。"],["連次長錦漳：我來跟台糖說。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這件事可能要趕快跟他們溝通，不然現在招商的熱期會因為這個事情受影響，因為現在是要來做半導體的供應，整個半導體的供應鏈，現在是很關鍵的時候，現在看起來台糖這個20年權利金會變成一個不利的因素。"],["連次長錦漳：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，我們還是有很多政策方法，可以確保這一些廠商在進駐的時候如何要求他們一定要確實履約，我想這個方法很多。"],["連次長錦漳：是有一個機制，但是我們來跟台糖溝通一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝，次長請回。","繼續請財政部部長及國有財產署曾署長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長、國有財產署曾署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，財政收支劃分法在財政委員會審議之後，目前已經送出委員會，3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒有討論到，這些沒有討論到的事，我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分時的核心精神所在。現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本，基本上就是要從中央然後把它垂直分配，中央垂直分配越多，然後就要把它直接給地方，包括首都的3%，包括他們垂直的分配。但是就水平分配的指標部分，這個一直沒有被討論，我覺得這個尤其對嘉義縣來講，我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面，不管是農1、農2、國保1、國保2的土地，我相信部長應該很清楚，這種的土地像農1、農2，因為農業的是不課稅的，所以農1、農2的產值沒有辦法被計算土地對於地方政府的貢獻，甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算。國保1、國保2負責水源的安全，所以有土地使用的限制，但是水源安全的提供，像雲林湖山水庫的水源在我們這裡；曾文水庫水源也在我們大埔，所以我們提供水源地，但是土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入貢獻值裡面，我認為這是不公平。所以部長未來是不是有可能針對這些指標，你們應該要具體的針對這個部分，就是你們應該要站在我們這邊，包括賴瑞隆委員也有提出汙染產業，產業造成空汙、造成水汙的一些指標，都應該要納入計算。部長，你贊成這樣的作法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員說的很是，財劃法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配，水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上基準財政收支的差短之外，對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去。所以我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有八十幾項，我們開會以後就把它縮減，然後能夠有共識就形成共識。像委員剛剛提到土地面積，土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字，因為土地面積裡面有不同的結構，農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地是完全不一樣的，土地面積如果是農地的話，田賦不徵收，這個對於地方政府來說就少了一個財政的收入，另外它的產值也不一樣，所以這個部分在做指標的時候都應該要做詳細的分析，然後給予不同的權數以及一個調整係數，要非常的細緻。","另外還有人口的部分，人口多，但是人口的結構也要去考慮，譬如65歲以上或14歲以下的，所需要政府給予財政支出的部分就要比較多，所以人口的部分不能只看數字，也要看結構。所以這個就是在水平分配的時候，相關的指標、權重以及調整係數都要去考慮，這就是最大的一個核心所在。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上我要強調的是，土地怎麼利用應該要有其價值，對這個地方才有起碼的公平、正義。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，它的產值也要計算。"],["蔡委員易餘：之所以我會請國有財產署上來，我一樣要講一個概念，就是現在所看到的不管是發展綠電或是太陽能，大概都集中在沿海地區，尤其在雲嘉南日照充足的沿海地區，所以有所謂漁電共生在推動，現在漁電共生的推動有很多也都跟國有財產署承租土地，國有財產署收租金。但是我要強調一個概念，我覺得部長跟署長回去可以思考一下，收租金都是中央收，事實上我覺得要就租金的部分比例給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所，一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於他們這個土地是來做於綠能，以致那個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情，他們獲得一部分的回饋，就地方政府來說。而不是中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往地方這邊找，事實上往這邊找要面對很多的社會成本，這個社會成本來自於太陽能產業的競爭及一些相對應的需要協調，或是地方上有一些民怨的時候，我覺得還是要審酌地方政府……因為太陽能產業而在國有財產署收的租金分配上，可以讓他們獲得部分分配，這部分是不是可以麻煩部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分我們可以跟經濟部一起討論，也就是再生能源在國產署所收的相關租金，要以什麼樣的機制回饋給地方政府，我們再跟經濟部一起來討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再講一件事就好。事實上，這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法，他們還是都站在六都的想法，都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量。比如我講一個，在他們的版本中，他們對鄉鎮公所的分配從8%變成4%，現在是8%嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以鄉鎮公所未來分配會變4%喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你看從8%變成4%這件事情，對於越基層，臺灣現在還是三級政府嘛，所以我們還是需要基層的鄉鎮公所，除了六都改成區了，但是以我們非六都，我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、朴子市、阿里山鄉，地方的三級政府也是需要有統籌分配才能做好公所的工作。結果這個版本把鄉鎮市直接對砍，砍成4%，然後對臺北市政府再無條件給予首都的3%，這個看起來就是重都市不重鄉村。日本的東京在所得分配方面，差不多從二次世界大戰以來，東京市沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配，部長，這件事對不對？統籌分配啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我了解，統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑財政盈虛，然後均衡區域的發展，因為每個地方的工商條件不同，地理形式也不同，所以要達到一個區域均衡的發展，讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦，所以部長所講是非常的關鍵，要均衡，然後要平衡，包括城鄉的差距要把它縮小，不過我們卻看到現在城鄉分配比例從過去的8%對砍變成4%，看起來就是有錢的越有錢，而像公所財政比較不行的就一定越來越慘。我覺得這些未來大家都可以來好好討論，那我現在已經抓出問題，我覺得部長應該對這些問題開始去思考，到樣怎樣才是一個合理的財政收支，一個符合縮小城鄉差距的分配方法，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。繼續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","本席作以下宣告：我們質詢到12點半，休息半個小時用餐，下午1點繼續開會。","請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}}