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00:01:00,053\n以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者\n\n4\n00:01:00,573 --> 00:01:02,735\n這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:26,329 --> 00:01:46,634\n就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這些本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的\n\n6\n00:01:48,763 --> 00:01:55,245\n今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣\n\n7\n00:02:16,652 --> 00:02:22,306\n這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼\n\n8\n00:02:23,882 --> 00:02:51,444\n跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場接近就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程中它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的\n\n9\n00:02:52,425 --> 00:03:05,700\n參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼然後這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者所以這個對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的\n\n10\n00:03:09,184 --> 00:03:20,178\n消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售的市場跟消費者嗎\n\n11\n00:03:28,508 --> 00:03:52,568\n我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費\n\n12\n00:03:53,729 --> 00:04:10,760\n配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的\n\n13\n00:04:11,701 --> 00:04:36,257\n更不平等部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由\n\n14\n00:04:38,118 --> 00:04:55,234\n這也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇這是本席最不希望看到的那也希望公平會要避免這三書統一加為例的合併案市佔率65%公平會就三度地把它駁回掉這次UberEats跟福達Pay合起來將近9成\n\n15\n00:04:57,116 --> 00:05:19,128\n公平問題就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請\n\n16\n00:05:21,629 --> 00:05:36,176\n合併的試驗要提出說明所以這中間有一些補件的過程我們文件齊備以後才正式進入審查那你們如何確保這審查的程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有這個委員會來針對那委員會不會對外公開啊\n\n17\n00:05:40,638 --> 00:06:08,566\n包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有\n\n18\n00:06:09,286 --> 00:06:35,931\n被動的接受你的成果而已維護的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明\n\n19\n00:06:38,951 --> 00:06:56,391\n防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的餐飲業者負面好這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公布完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但\n\n20\n00:06:57,192 --> 00:07:12,838\n對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年那從現在算起你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢\n\n21\n00:07:12,978 --> 00:07:28,272\n我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉\n\n22\n00:07:29,093 --> 00:07:50,009\n你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委了嘛反正拿不了反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照這個法定的程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量這個的因素所以不會在你1月31號所以再繼續拖就對了\n\n23\n00:07:52,011 --> 00:07:55,495\n在你任期間可不可以結束你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊所以你這個主委就是\n\n24\n00:08:12,714 --> 00:08:33,162\n沒有辦法處理嗎?你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嗎?對不對?我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件不會在你任期完成嗎?好那你就繼續拖吧\n\n25\n00:08:40,845 --> 00:08:43,729\n公平會是否應接同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為與相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢?\n\n26\n00:09:01,108 --> 00:09:28,253\n交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷\n\n27\n00:09:29,673 --> 00:09:44,800\n你的鍋存是傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改\n\n28\n00:09:45,641 --> 00:10:02,182\n這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你再跟我講枝枝節節的\n\n29\n00:10:03,283 --> 00:10:13,067\n所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理\n\n30\n00:10:29,338 --> 00:10:35,562\n只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對阿那你可以去輔導銀行嗎?竟然會都你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對阿你就是針對競爭嘛不公平嘛市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷你當然可以對他做這個合併阿或壟斷阿的市場的一個強制的一個管理作為阿你可以輔導他嗎?\n\n31\n00:10:58,735 --> 00:11:09,016\n多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎\n\n32\n00:11:11,363 --> 00:11:11,623\n好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n63\t123\t主席\n13271\t30339\t本席也延續陳金飛陳委員的議題這個外送平臺整併加速透明加速要透明這個會涉及到這三個消費者從業人員跟產業以及第四個就是這個平臺這平臺串起的這三個消費者\n31159\t60053\t以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者\n60573\t62735\t這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼\n86329\t106634\t就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這些本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的\n108763\t115245\t今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣\n136652\t142306\t這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼\n143882\t171444\t跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場接近就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程中它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的\n172425\t185700\t參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼然後這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者所以這個對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的\n189184\t200178\t消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售的市場跟消費者嗎\n208508\t232568\t我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費\n233729\t250760\t配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的\n251701\t276257\t更不平等部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由\n278118\t295234\t這也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇這是本席最不希望看到的那也希望公平會要避免這三書統一加為例的合併案市佔率65%公平會就三度地把它駁回掉這次UberEats跟福達Pay合起來將近9成\n297116\t319128\t公平問題就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請\n321629\t336176\t合併的試驗要提出說明所以這中間有一些補件的過程我們文件齊備以後才正式進入審查那你們如何確保這審查的程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有這個委員會來針對那委員會不會對外公開啊\n340638\t368566\t包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有\n369286\t395931\t被動的接受你的成果而已維護的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明\n398951\t416391\t防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的餐飲業者負面好這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公布完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但\n417192\t432838\t對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年那從現在算起你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢\n432978\t448272\t我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉\n449093\t470009\t你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委了嘛反正拿不了反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照這個法定的程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量這個的因素所以不會在你1月31號所以再繼續拖就對了\n472011\t475495\t在你任期間可不可以結束你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊所以你這個主委就是\n492714\t513162\t沒有辦法處理嗎?你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嗎?對不對?我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件不會在你任期完成嗎?好那你就繼續拖吧\n520845\t523729\t公平會是否應接同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為與相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢?\n541108\t568253\t交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷\n569673\t584800\t你的鍋存是傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改\n585641\t602182\t這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你再跟我講枝枝節節的\n603283\t613067\t所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理\n629338\t635562\t只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對阿那你可以去輔導銀行嗎?竟然會都你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對阿你就是針對競爭嘛不公平嘛市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷你當然可以對他做這個合併阿或壟斷阿的市場的一個強制的一個管理作為阿你可以輔導他嗎?\n658735\t669016\t多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎\n671363\t671623\t好 以上謝謝\n","txt":"主席\n本席也延續陳金飛陳委員的議題這個外送平臺整併加速透明加速要透明這個會涉及到這三個消費者從業人員跟產業以及第四個就是這個平臺這平臺串起的這三個消費者\n以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者\n這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼\n就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這些本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的\n今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣\n這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼\n跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場接近就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程中它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的\n參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼然後這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者所以這個對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的\n消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售的市場跟消費者嗎\n我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費\n配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的\n更不平等部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由\n這也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇這是本席最不希望看到的那也希望公平會要避免這三書統一加為例的合併案市佔率65%公平會就三度地把它駁回掉這次UberEats跟福達Pay合起來將近9成\n公平問題就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請\n合併的試驗要提出說明所以這中間有一些補件的過程我們文件齊備以後才正式進入審查那你們如何確保這審查的程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有這個委員會來針對那委員會不會對外公開啊\n包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有\n被動的接受你的成果而已維護的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明\n防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的餐飲業者負面好這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公布完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但\n對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年那從現在算起你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢\n我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉\n你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委了嘛反正拿不了反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照這個法定的程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量這個的因素所以不會在你1月31號所以再繼續拖就對了\n在你任期間可不可以結束你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊所以你這個主委就是\n沒有辦法處理嗎?你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嗎?對不對?我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件不會在你任期完成嗎?好那你就繼續拖吧\n公平會是否應接同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為與相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢?\n交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷\n你的鍋存是傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改\n這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你再跟我講枝枝節節的\n所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理\n只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對阿那你可以去輔導銀行嗎?竟然會都你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對阿你就是針對競爭嘛不公平嘛市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷你當然可以對他做這個合併阿或壟斷阿的市場的一個強制的一個管理作為阿你可以輔導他嗎?\n多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎\n好 以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.063 --> 00:00.123\n主席\n\n00:13.271 --> 00:30.339\n本席也延續陳金飛陳委員的議題這個外送平臺整併加速透明加速要透明這個會涉及到這三個消費者從業人員跟產業以及第四個就是這個平臺這平臺串起的這三個消費者\n\n00:31.159 --> 01:00.053\n以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者\n\n01:00.573 --> 01:02.735\n這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼\n\n01:26.329 --> 01:46.634\n就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這些本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的\n\n01:48.763 --> 01:55.245\n今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣\n\n02:16.652 --> 02:22.306\n這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼\n\n02:23.882 --> 02:51.444\n跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場接近就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程中它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的\n\n02:52.425 --> 03:05.700\n參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼然後這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者所以這個對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的\n\n03:09.184 --> 03:20.178\n消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售的市場跟消費者嗎\n\n03:28.508 --> 03:52.568\n我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費\n\n03:53.729 --> 04:10.760\n配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的\n\n04:11.701 --> 04:36.257\n更不平等部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由\n\n04:38.118 --> 04:55.234\n這也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇這是本席最不希望看到的那也希望公平會要避免這三書統一加為例的合併案市佔率65%公平會就三度地把它駁回掉這次UberEats跟福達Pay合起來將近9成\n\n04:57.116 --> 05:19.128\n公平問題就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請\n\n05:21.629 --> 05:36.176\n合併的試驗要提出說明所以這中間有一些補件的過程我們文件齊備以後才正式進入審查那你們如何確保這審查的程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有這個委員會來針對那委員會不會對外公開啊\n\n05:40.638 --> 06:08.566\n包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有\n\n06:09.286 --> 06:35.931\n被動的接受你的成果而已維護的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明\n\n06:38.951 --> 06:56.391\n防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的餐飲業者負面好這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公布完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但\n\n06:57.192 --> 07:12.838\n對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年那從現在算起你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢\n\n07:12.978 --> 07:28.272\n我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉\n\n07:29.093 --> 07:50.009\n你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委了嘛反正拿不了反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照這個法定的程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量這個的因素所以不會在你1月31號所以再繼續拖就對了\n\n07:52.011 --> 07:55.495\n在你任期間可不可以結束你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊所以你這個主委就是\n\n08:12.714 --> 08:33.162\n沒有辦法處理嗎?你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嗎?對不對?我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件不會在你任期完成嗎?好那你就繼續拖吧\n\n08:40.845 --> 08:43.729\n公平會是否應接同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為與相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢?\n\n09:01.108 --> 09:28.253\n交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷\n\n09:29.673 --> 09:44.800\n你的鍋存是傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改\n\n09:45.641 --> 10:02.182\n這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你再跟我講枝枝節節的\n\n10:03.283 --> 10:13.067\n所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理\n\n10:29.338 --> 10:35.562\n只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對阿那你可以去輔導銀行嗎?竟然會都你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對阿你就是針對競爭嘛不公平嘛市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷你當然可以對他做這個合併阿或壟斷阿的市場的一個強制的一個管理作為阿你可以輔導他嗎?\n\n10:58.735 --> 11:09.016\n多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎\n\n11:11.363 --> 11:11.623\n好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.063,"end":0.123,"text":"主席"},{"start":13.271,"end":30.339,"text":"本席也延續陳金飛陳委員的議題這個外送平臺整併加速透明加速要透明這個會涉及到這三個消費者從業人員跟產業以及第四個就是這個平臺這平臺串起的這三個消費者"},{"start":31.159,"end":60.053,"text":"以及這個產品的提供者以及產業好那後疫情時代外送服務已經成為改變了商業服務的模式外送平台成為現代消費模式在疫情後呢外送服務成為國人的日常我們也為我們在地的餐飲業者提供了嶄新的銷售管道那政府的角色是什麼如何在這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長讓國人跟在地業者"},{"start":60.573,"end":62.735,"text":"這次的外送平台結合審查案市場界定範圍是什麼"},{"start":86.329,"end":106.634,"text":"就我們來看它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平台餐飲就是銷售供給者還有外送那所以呢消費者的需求市場跟這些本身投入的派遣人員外送人員不是派遣人員外送人員勞動力的媒合者這不是你們要管的"},{"start":108.763,"end":115.245,"text":"今天的這個平台為什麼我們大家重視除了市佔率他會達到9成包括他所涉及的我們的這個本身的勞動力他們會不會被壓榨因為壟斷之後被壓榨消費者的選擇他的這個採購的權利是不是也縮小包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付他的這種壓榨的我是不是也被市場邊緣"},{"start":136.652,"end":142.306,"text":"這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於你僅限於平台還有什麼"},{"start":143.882,"end":171.444,"text":"跟這個勞動人員嗎?跟這個外送人員嗎?因為這是兩個平台的結合所以我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平台的行業那所以它的市場接近就是餐飲外送平台就是要管平台其他的這個你們在審查過程中它所會影響的只就它的市場面的獨佔性那對於它這個所有相關的外送平台所媒合的三個需求市場你們是不管的"},{"start":172.425,"end":185.7,"text":"參與銷售供給消費者需求勞動力服務這不是你的市場界定我們先界定市場是什麼然後這個市場它的利害關係人有餐廳有外送員有消費者所以這個對市場的影響就會把剛才委員提到的"},{"start":189.184,"end":200.178,"text":"消費者也好餐廳也好那你們這過程當中有跟目的主管西關交通部公路總理去討論如何節制外送平台業者及輔導這個外送員以及輔導這個餐飲的銷售的市場跟消費者嗎"},{"start":208.508,"end":232.568,"text":"我們在跨機關聯繫都有除了交通部數位部經濟部這個對他們產業所輔導的對象或是他們關心對象都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量好OK那公平會這邊應該避免散訴消費者屬外送平台集中之後消費者的選擇會減少少數平台掌控市場後會提高服務費"},{"start":233.729,"end":250.76,"text":"配送費及擴大通膨的影響餐廳數對地區型的中小型的餐飲他溢價能力本身就不足平台合併後的抽成費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營的壓力這種競爭格局就更的"},{"start":251.701,"end":276.257,"text":"更不平等部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場淪為市場的邊緣外送元素當我的平台結合後如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件收入結構就會遭遇到更大的壓力市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時報酬遭到壓縮而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由"},{"start":278.118,"end":295.234,"text":"這也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇這是本席最不希望看到的那也希望公平會要避免這三書統一加為例的合併案市佔率65%公平會就三度地把它駁回掉這次UberEats跟福達Pay合起來將近9成"},{"start":297.116,"end":319.128,"text":"公平問題就要更謹慎了希望審查的結果能夠讓餐飲業從業人員消費者的權益得到三贏的局面那這個本席想了解為什麼你5月收件之後你11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件拖了6個月為什麼這期間有當事人要這個補件的機會還有各界的意見這個我們會請"},{"start":321.629,"end":336.176,"text":"合併的試驗要提出說明所以這中間有一些補件的過程我們文件齊備以後才正式進入審查那你們如何確保這審查的程序更為公開透明我們的審查會有這個委員會來針對那委員會不會對外公開啊"},{"start":340.638,"end":368.566,"text":"包括剛才陳委員這邊提到的阿你連那個收集收整的這個過程也是一個公開透明阿你們的公開透明怎麼針對14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾包括那些參議院者你是看不到的阿我們的委員對於這幾個月來各界的意見都會所以你的公開透明還沒有做到更公開透明阿就只有在內部審查我們只有外界只有"},{"start":369.286,"end":395.931,"text":"被動的接受你的成果而已維護的審查有一定的程序好來具體的回應一下公平會當然本席期待的希望更開加速更有效的處理外送平台合併案確保審查過程的透明度所以這邊你要提出請你呢在一個禮拜內這個回應這個本席你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開透明所以你剛才講那個機制我認為不夠公開還不夠透明"},{"start":398.951,"end":416.391,"text":"防止市場壟斷對消費者從業人員跟中小型的餐飲業者負面好這個下一題你具體回答我你什麼時候完成此案的審查並對外公布完整因為你的任期到明年的1月31號雖然你是續任的主委但"},{"start":417.192,"end":432.838,"text":"對於這個案子你已經拖了6個月當然你有一些解釋那也可以3個月完成他也可以4個月完成你就拖了半年那從現在算起你的任期到1月31你是要拖過你的任期呢還是要什麼時候結束呢"},{"start":432.978,"end":448.272,"text":"我們的法定審查期間是7倍之後30天所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號那在這個必要還需要再延長的話可以再延長60個工作天我知道規定那您什麼時候讓他處理掉"},{"start":449.093,"end":470.009,"text":"你要你的任期1月31號所以你是覺得有沒有透過我任期都不要緊反正就交定署反正我是續任的主委了嘛反正拿不了反正沒有人可以監督我我們審這個案子一定照這個法定的程序來處理我不會把任期以否作為考量這個的因素所以不會在你1月31號所以再繼續拖就對了"},{"start":472.011,"end":475.495,"text":"在你任期間可不可以結束你是主委啊你是在主導會議的人沒有問題當然不能主導他們但是你對時程你可以要求啊所以你這個主委就是"},{"start":492.714,"end":513.162,"text":"沒有辦法處理嗎?你的這個主委跟我的國發會主委跟我的這個僑委會的主委跟我之前的現在叫農委部農委會的主委是不一樣的你這個主委是架空的性質不一樣的地方因為每位委員有他獨立的判斷所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成嗎?對不對?我們一定會盡速審慎來處理這個案件不會在你任期完成嗎?好那你就繼續拖吧"},{"start":520.845,"end":523.729,"text":"公平會是否應接同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位強化外送平台的管制作為與相關關係人的輔導以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢?"},{"start":541.108,"end":568.253,"text":"交通部消保會勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平台這個都有一些會議我們都有參與其中如果跟公平競爭跟競爭有關的這個我們責務龐大一定要一起來處理所以你們不做輔導的工作不做輔導的工作基本上我們是對他有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為這句話就好我再抓住你這句話就好你這句話就符合你的職長那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷"},{"start":569.673,"end":584.8,"text":"你的鍋存是傳銷你這個是你怎麼去發展一個我剛才講的管制跟輔導你怎麼做到輔導你可以做到仲裁你是一個仲裁角色因為目前的法律對所以要改嘛但是重點是你認不認同你認同要改"},{"start":585.641,"end":602.182,"text":"這個您當到現在你還來跟我講說法律的問題你的社會共識社會目前的問題的掌握以及你的問題的解決方法你要很明確你才去改你的法律你的預算你的人事啊你再跟我講枝枝節節的"},{"start":603.283,"end":613.067,"text":"所以公平會是一個仲裁的角色是一個管理的管制的角色他不是輔導的角色所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該去對多層次傳銷應該做任何的一個主管作為主管機關你是要去重禮他的任何各部會只要涉及包括金管會銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你要不要會同理"},{"start":629.338,"end":635.562,"text":"只要跟本會的業務有關我們都會跨機關對阿那你可以去輔導銀行嗎?竟然會都你可以輔導銀行嗎?我們如果跟競爭有關我們也會跟銀行有聯繫對阿你就是針對競爭嘛不公平嘛市場嘛那你對多層次傳銷你當然可以對他做這個合併阿或壟斷阿的市場的一個強制的一個管理作為阿你可以輔導他嗎?"},{"start":658.735,"end":669.016,"text":"多層次傳銷行業在你這邊你可以輔導他嗎目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的對你可以輔導他嗎我們可以輔導你可以輔導你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎"},{"start":671.363,"end":671.623,"text":"好 以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時19分）有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：主席，不好意思，資訊的問題你能不能處理一下？"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝，謝謝主席。","好，本席也延續陳亭妃委員的議題，關於外送平臺整併一事，我認為必須要加速、透明，加速及透明，因為這個會涉及到這三個：消費者、從業人員跟產業，以及第四個，就是這個平臺，這個平臺串起了這三個：消費者、產品的提供者以及產業。後疫情時代，外送服務已經改變了商業服務的模式，外送平臺已成為現代的消費模式，在疫情後，外送服務成為國人的日常，也為我們在地的餐飲業者，提供了嶄新的銷售管道，但政府的角色是什麼？如何讓這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長，讓國人跟在地業者都能夠受惠。整併所帶來的市場集中化，若不加以管控，形成市場壟斷，讓消費者失去選擇的多樣性，而且也壓縮在地提供產品小型業者的生存空間，這也會造成不公平的競爭壓力。好，本席要問您這次的外送平臺結合審查案，市場界定範圍是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：就本案來看，它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：餐飲，就是銷售供給者，還有外送。"],["李主任委員鎂：餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：所以消費者的需求市場跟本身投入的外送人員，即勞動力的媒合者，這不是你們要管的？今天的這個平臺，為什麼大家會重視？除了市占率它會達到九成耶！包括它所涉及本身的勞動力會不會被壓榨？因為壟斷之後被壓榨，消費者的選擇、採購的權利是不是也縮小？包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付這種壓榨的情況，是不是也被市場邊緣？這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於平臺跟勞動人員、外送人員嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這是兩個平臺的結合，我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平臺的行業，所以它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：就是要管平臺，其他的你們在審查過程它所會影響的……"],["李主任委員鎂：第一個……"],["林委員岱樺：只就它市場面的獨占性，對於所有相關的外送平臺所媒合的三個需求市場，你們是不管的？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是、不是。"],["林委員岱樺：餐飲銷售供給、消費者需求、勞動力服務媒介，這不是你的市場界定？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們先界定市場是什麼，這個市場的利害關係人有餐廳、有外送員、有消費者，所以這個對市場的影響，就會把剛才委員提到的消費者也好，餐廳也好，及外送人員一起考量。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你們在過程當中有跟目的事業主管機關交通部公路總局去討論如何節制外送平臺業者及輔導外送員，以及輔導餐飲銷售市場跟消費者嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在跨機關聯繫都有，除了交通部、數位部、經濟部，對他們產業所輔導的對象或是關心的對象，都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK。公平會這邊應該避免三輸：消費者輸，外送平臺集中之後，消費者的選擇會減少，少數平臺掌控市場後，會提高服務費、配送費及擴大通膨的影響；餐廳輸，對地區型的中小型餐飲，其議價能力本身就不足，平臺合併後的抽成和費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營壓力，這種競爭格局就更不平等，部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場，淪為市場的邊緣；外送人員輸，當平臺結合後，如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件、收入結構，就會遭遇到更大的壓力，市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時、報酬遭到壓縮，而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由減少了，也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇。這是本席最不希望看到的，也希望公平會要避免三輸。統一加維力的合併案市占率65%，公平會就三度把它駁回掉，這次Uber Eats跟foodpanda合起來將近九成，公平會就要更謹慎了，希望審查結果能夠讓餐飲業、從業人員、消費者權益得到三贏局面。本席想瞭解，為什麼5月收件之後，11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件，拖了6個月，為什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：這期間有當事人補件的機會，還有對各界的意見，我們會請合併事業要提出說明，所以這中間有一些補件的過程，等文件齊備以後，才正式進入審查。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你們如何確保審查程序更為公開、透明呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的審查會有委員會來針對所有資料……"],["林委員岱樺：那委員會不會對外公開啊！包括剛才陳委員這邊提到連蒐整過程也要公開、透明，你們的公開、透明怎麼針對這14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想委員會……"],["林委員岱樺：包括那些餐飲業者，你是看不到的。"],["李主任委員鎂：對於這幾個月來各界的意見，我們委員都會瞭解，我們都會承諾……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的公開、透明還沒有做到更公開、透明啊！就只有在內部審查，外界只有被動地接受你的成果而已。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員會的審查有一定的程序，我想對這個案子會審慎處理。"],["林委員岱樺：好，具體回應一下，當然本席期待公平會更加速、更有效地處理外送平臺合併案，確保審查過程的透明度，請在一個禮拜內回應本席，你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開、透明，除了你剛才講的那個機制，我認為不夠公開、還不夠透明，為防止市場壟斷，對消費者、從業人員跟中小型餐飲業者產生負面影響，下一題請你具體回答我，你什麼時候完成此案的審查，並對外完整公布？因為你的任期到明年1月31號，雖然你是續任的主委，但對於這個案子，你已經拖了6個月，當然你有一些解釋，也可以3個月完成啊！也可以4個月完成，但你就拖了半年。從現在算起，你的任期到1月31號，你是要拖過任期呢？還是要什麼時候結束呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的法定審查期間是齊備之後30天，所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號，必要還需要再延長的話，可以再延長60個工作天。"],["林委員岱樺：我知道規定，那您什麼時候讓它處理掉？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個要看委員會。"],["林委員岱樺：你的任期是到1月31號，所以你是覺得有沒有拖過任期都沒關係，反正就是照程序來。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們審……"],["林委員岱樺：反正你是續任的主委了，反正沒有人可以監督你，對啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們審這個案子，一定照法定程序來處理，我不會把任期與否作為考量因素，主要是看委員會的討論情形。"],["林委員岱樺：所以到1月31號再繼續拖就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會拖、不會拖。"],["林委員岱樺：在你任期前可不可以結束？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看委員會討論的情形。"],["林委員岱樺：你是主委啊！你是在主導會議的人。"],["李主任委員鎂：我主導會議，但是我沒有辦法主導委員可能提出的問題，或者對於案情的瞭解……"],["林委員岱樺：沒有問題，當然不能主導他們，但是對於時程你可以要求啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：時程上要看委員討論的內容，有沒有需要再進一步瞭解。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你這個主委就是沒有辦法處理嘛！你的這個主委跟國發會主委、僑委會主委，跟之前農委會的主委（現在叫農業部）是不一樣的，你這個主委是架空的？"],["李主任委員鎂：這就是獨立機關委員會性質不一樣的地方，因為每一位委員有他獨立的判斷。"],["林委員岱樺：最後一題，所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一定會儘速審慎來處理這個案件。"],["林委員岱樺：對，不會在你任期完成嘛！好，那你就繼續拖吧！就看到你的態度……"],["李主任委員鎂：不會拖、不會拖。"],["林委員岱樺：我覺得公平會是可以廢掉的，再一次證明本席的主張。再來，公平會是否應偕同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位，強化外送平臺的管制作為跟相關關係人的輔導，以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢？來回應一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：交通部、消保會、勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平臺都有一些會議，我們都有參與，其中如果跟公平競爭、跟競爭有關的，我們責無旁貸，一定要一起來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：好，所以你們不做輔導的工作？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，我們是對它有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為來進行判斷。"],["林委員岱樺：好，我再抓住你這句話就好，這句話就符合你的職掌，那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷？"],["李主任委員鎂：我沒有……"],["林委員岱樺：你的多層次傳銷，我現在講的管制跟輔導，你怎麼做到輔導？你可以做到仲裁，你是一個仲裁角色。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為目前的法律，我們要根據法律來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：對！所以要改嘛！但是重點是你認不認同？你認同要改，您當到現在了，你還來跟我講是法律問題，對社會共識、社會目前問題的掌握以及問題解決方法，你要很明確才去改你的法令、你的預算、你的人事啊！你在這裡跟我講枝枝節節的，所以公平會是一個仲裁角色、是一個管制角色，它不是輔導角色，所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該對多層次傳銷作為主管機關，你是要去綜理它，各部會只要涉及任何競爭，包括金管會，銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你？要不要會同你？"],["李主任委員鎂：只要跟本會的業務有關，我們都會跨機關瞭解。"],["林委員岱樺：當然啊！對啊！那你可以去輔導銀行嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果跟競爭有關，我們也會跟銀行有聯繫，對於這個倡議也會處理。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！你就是針對競爭、不公平、市場嘛！對多層次傳銷，你當然可以對它做合併或壟斷市場的強制管理作為啊！但你可以輔導它嗎？多層次傳銷行業在你這邊，你可以輔導它嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的業務。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你可以輔導它嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們可以輔導，我們……"],["林委員岱樺：你可以輔導，你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會有衝突。"],["林委員岱樺：不會衝突喔？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["林委員岱樺：你應該叫行政院長，你什麼部會都要管欸！因為金管會的東西也應該到你這邊來管啊，我只要法令一修，銀行這邊就管到你了啊，包括foodpanda這個東西也應該改為是你，因為你可以輔導。好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","陳超明","蔡易餘","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公\n平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00001"}}}