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\"所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 123.877, \"end\": 123.997, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 123.997, \"end\": 124.117, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 124.117, \"end\": 124.297, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 124.297, \"end\": 124.417, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 124.417, \"end\": 124.537, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 124.537, \"end\": 124.758, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 124.758, \"end\": 125.118, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 125.118, \"end\": 125.538, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 125.538, \"end\": 125.958, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 125.958, \"end\": 126.459, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 126.459, 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{\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 148.514, \"end\": 149.034, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 149.034, \"end\": 149.294, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 149.294, \"end\": 150.075, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 150.075, \"end\": 150.255, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 150.255, \"end\": 150.995, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 150.995, \"end\": 151.195, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 151.195, \"end\": 151.395, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 151.395, \"end\": 151.536, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 151.536, \"end\": 151.636, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 151.636, \"end\": 151.756, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 151.756, \"end\": 151.896, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 151.896, 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\"end\": 687.401, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 687.401, \"end\": 687.421, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 687.421, \"end\": 687.541, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 687.541, \"end\": 687.641, \"score\": 0.53}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 687.641, \"end\": 687.661, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 687.661, \"end\": 687.861, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 687.861, \"end\": 688.021, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 688.021, \"end\": 688.041, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 688.041, \"end\": 688.062, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 688.062, \"end\": 688.162, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 688.162, \"end\": 688.182, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 688.182, \"end\": 688.202, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 688.202, \"end\": 688.422, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 688.422, \"end\": 688.442, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,316 --> 00:00:05,637\n副秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:19,727 --> 00:00:39,290\n委員好,主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財化法那麼事實上中央對地方呢財化法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方\n\n3\n00:00:40,571 --> 00:01:01,587\n當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格\n\n4\n00:01:02,307 --> 00:01:26,687\n好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看\n\n5\n00:01:28,339 --> 00:01:44,100\n可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市\n\n6\n00:01:45,828 --> 00:02:00,383\n桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市\n\n7\n00:02:03,877 --> 00:02:32,997\n所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊\n\n8\n00:02:34,232 --> 00:03:03,239\n因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市\n\n9\n00:03:04,315 --> 00:03:19,073\n因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府\n\n10\n00:03:20,066 --> 00:03:42,095\n你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通都退掉了\n\n11\n00:03:44,605 --> 00:04:10,685\n屏東它不是人口最多它也不是面積最多它也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說\n\n12\n00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:39,889\n例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我還沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個\n\n13\n00:04:42,808 --> 00:05:11,246\n報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁\n\n14\n00:05:13,292 --> 00:05:30,058\n請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億\n\n15\n00:05:43,088 --> 00:06:10,257\n然後呢今年度編列的是74億所以呢如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少對不對今年的動資非常少好那因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億\n\n16\n00:06:12,233 --> 00:06:30,890\n如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告\n\n17\n00:06:35,919 --> 00:07:02,081\n因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今天災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候\n\n18\n00:07:03,602 --> 00:07:23,115\n異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災準金你把它編50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用那我請問你二倍金編那麼多幹嘛\n\n19\n00:07:31,460 --> 00:07:58,153\n我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少像我今年開明颱風就100多億那現在三駝耳的這個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損主計長我就知道你會這樣想\n\n20\n00:08:00,794 --> 00:08:20,848\n你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本能拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算\n\n21\n00:08:23,294 --> 00:08:47,196\n摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少\n\n22\n00:08:50,083 --> 00:09:05,956\n然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有些我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多\n\n23\n00:09:07,267 --> 00:09:33,743\n第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分\n\n24\n00:09:36,905 --> 00:10:02,263\n調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒\n\n25\n00:10:02,503 --> 00:10:03,003\n主席主席主席\n\n26\n00:10:25,923 --> 00:10:37,992\n審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是\n\n27\n00:10:44,457 --> 00:10:58,846\n就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責\n\n28\n00:11:04,469 --> 00:11:08,791\n審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園\n\n29\n00:11:25,638 --> 00:11:28,442\n審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5316\t5637\t副秘書長\n19727\t39290\t委員好,主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財化法那麼事實上中央對地方呢財化法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方\n40571\t61587\t當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格\n62307\t86687\t好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看\n88339\t104100\t可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市\n105828\t120383\t桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市\n123877\t152997\t所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊\n154232\t183239\t因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市\n184315\t199073\t因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府\n200066\t222095\t你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通都退掉了\n224605\t250685\t屏東它不是人口最多它也不是面積最多它也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說\n252270\t279889\t例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我還沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個\n282808\t311246\t報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁\n313292\t330058\t請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億\n343088\t370257\t然後呢今年度編列的是74億所以呢如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少對不對今年的動資非常少好那因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億\n372233\t390890\t如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告\n395919\t422081\t因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今天災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候\n423602\t443115\t異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災準金你把它編50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用那我請問你二倍金編那麼多幹嘛\n451460\t478153\t我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少像我今年開明颱風就100多億那現在三駝耳的這個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損主計長我就知道你會這樣想\n480794\t500848\t你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本能拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算\n503294\t527196\t摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少\n530083\t545956\t然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有些我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多\n547267\t573743\t第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分\n576905\t602263\t調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒\n602503\t603003\t主席主席主席\n625923\t637992\t審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是\n644457\t658846\t就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責\n664469\t668791\t審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園\n685638\t688442\t審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"副秘書長\n委員好,主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財化法那麼事實上中央對地方呢財化法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方\n當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格\n好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看\n可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市\n桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市\n所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊\n因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市\n因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府\n你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通都退掉了\n屏東它不是人口最多它也不是面積最多它也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說\n例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我還沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個\n報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁\n請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億\n然後呢今年度編列的是74億所以呢如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少對不對今年的動資非常少好那因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億\n如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告\n因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今天災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候\n異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災準金你把它編50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用那我請問你二倍金編那麼多幹嘛\n我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少像我今年開明颱風就100多億那現在三駝耳的這個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損主計長我就知道你會這樣想\n你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本能拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算\n摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少\n然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有些我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多\n第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分\n調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒\n主席主席主席\n審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是\n就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責\n審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園\n審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.316 --> 00:05.637\n副秘書長\n\n00:19.727 --> 00:39.290\n委員好,主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財化法那麼事實上中央對地方呢財化法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方\n\n00:40.571 --> 01:01.587\n當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格\n\n01:02.307 --> 01:26.687\n好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看\n\n01:28.339 --> 01:44.100\n可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市\n\n01:45.828 --> 02:00.383\n桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市\n\n02:03.877 --> 02:32.997\n所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊\n\n02:34.232 --> 03:03.239\n因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市\n\n03:04.315 --> 03:19.073\n因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府\n\n03:20.066 --> 03:42.095\n你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通都退掉了\n\n03:44.605 --> 04:10.685\n屏東它不是人口最多它也不是面積最多它也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說\n\n04:12.270 --> 04:39.889\n例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我還沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個\n\n04:42.808 --> 05:11.246\n報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁\n\n05:13.292 --> 05:30.058\n請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億\n\n05:43.088 --> 06:10.257\n然後呢今年度編列的是74億所以呢如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少對不對今年的動資非常少好那因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億\n\n06:12.233 --> 06:30.890\n如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告\n\n06:35.919 --> 07:02.081\n因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今天災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候\n\n07:03.602 --> 07:23.115\n異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災準金你把它編50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用那我請問你二倍金編那麼多幹嘛\n\n07:31.460 --> 07:58.153\n我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少像我今年開明颱風就100多億那現在三駝耳的這個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損主計長我就知道你會這樣想\n\n08:00.794 --> 08:20.848\n你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本能拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算\n\n08:23.294 --> 08:47.196\n摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少\n\n08:50.083 --> 09:05.956\n然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有些我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多\n\n09:07.267 --> 09:33.743\n第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分\n\n09:36.905 --> 10:02.263\n調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒\n\n10:02.503 --> 10:03.003\n主席主席主席\n\n10:25.923 --> 10:37.992\n審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是\n\n10:44.457 --> 10:58.846\n就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責\n\n11:04.469 --> 11:08.791\n審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園\n\n11:25.638 --> 11:28.442\n審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.316,"end":5.637,"text":"副秘書長"},{"start":19.727,"end":39.29,"text":"委員好,主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財化法那麼事實上中央對地方呢財化法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方"},{"start":40.571,"end":61.587,"text":"當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格"},{"start":62.307,"end":86.687,"text":"好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看"},{"start":88.339,"end":104.1,"text":"可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市"},{"start":105.828,"end":120.383,"text":"桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市190億、桃園市"},{"start":123.877,"end":152.997,"text":"所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄市第一名高雄也是第二名啊"},{"start":154.232,"end":183.239,"text":"因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市"},{"start":184.315,"end":199.073,"text":"因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府"},{"start":200.066,"end":222.095,"text":"你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通都退掉了"},{"start":224.605,"end":250.685,"text":"屏東它不是人口最多它也不是面積最多它也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說"},{"start":252.27,"end":279.889,"text":"例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我還沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個"},{"start":282.808,"end":311.246,"text":"報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁"},{"start":313.292,"end":330.058,"text":"請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億"},{"start":343.088,"end":370.257,"text":"然後呢今年度編列的是74億所以呢如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少對不對今年的動資非常少好那因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億"},{"start":372.233,"end":390.89,"text":"如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":395.919,"end":422.081,"text":"因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今天災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候"},{"start":423.602,"end":443.115,"text":"異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災準金你把它編50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用那我請問你二倍金編那麼多幹嘛"},{"start":451.46,"end":478.153,"text":"我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少像我今年開明颱風就100多億那現在三駝耳的這個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損主計長我就知道你會這樣想"},{"start":480.794,"end":500.848,"text":"你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本能拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算"},{"start":503.294,"end":527.196,"text":"摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少"},{"start":530.083,"end":545.956,"text":"然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有些我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多"},{"start":547.267,"end":573.743,"text":"第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分"},{"start":576.905,"end":602.263,"text":"調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒"},{"start":602.503,"end":603.003,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":625.923,"end":637.992,"text":"審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是"},{"start":644.457,"end":658.846,"text":"就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責"},{"start":664.469,"end":668.791,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園"},{"start":685.638,"end":688.442,"text":"審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時41分）謝謝主席。請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：也請我們副秘書長。"],["主席：好，副秘書長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長和副秘書長好。上次我在這邊特別提到，因為我們一直在討論財劃法，事實上中央對地方，財劃法因為統籌款的部分有公式，但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方，當時我就在質疑，以我們六都來說，歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌，在六都裡面第一名，臺南市還很不服氣，我看到有一些綠媒還說它打臉我，它用一些它自己的表格。我今天就再一次的用行政院主計總處所做的報告，我們今天討論中央補助款，對不對？中央補助款的一般補助款裡面，在你們報告的第14頁，這是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表，大家如果有的話可以拿來看，我們如果拿六都來說，最少的是桃園市，114年是75億。第一名這次換人了，高雄市190億，臺南市189億，差1億。","所以我們如果拿六都來比較，確實臺南市今年掉到第二名，但是如果看歷年，我今天就用這個表格，這在主計總處的網站也通通都有，臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面的第一名，可是大家看到我今天的表格一定覺得很奇怪。王鴻薇，你說什麼臺南第一名，它說第二名；你剛剛說今年高雄市第一名，高雄也是第二名啊！因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款，我發現一個非常特殊的狀況，也就是通常一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關業務，確實六都它分配比較多一些，但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都，神秘第七都，後來我看了以後，我確實有點冤枉臺南市，因為在歷年你們一般性補助，從110年一直到明年，你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市，而是屏東縣政府，你看今年還可以拿到192億，比高雄、比臺南都要高。所以我想請問主計長、請問行政院，我想各縣市都有很多業務，剛才比如說像金門，他們想做一些事情，因為沒有錢，最後把那個配合款也通通都退掉了。屏東不是人口最多，也不是面積最多，也不是財政自籌的能力最差，都不是，為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名，什麼原因？過去常常講說，哇！中央政府都是重北輕南，有嗎？如果我們看一般性補助款來說，歷年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名，結果後來沒想到屏東更厲害，屏東可以拿第一名，所以你們這些補助款，難道不是重綠輕藍嗎？我直接整理了5年的資料給你看，因為我的時間有限，因為我待會兒還有很多要問，請行政院主計總處給我一個報告，請問你們一般性補助款的分配標準到底是什麼？為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡、長期的傾斜？請問一下屏東縣它如何傲視全國，年年可以拿第一？我不解，這有神秘的公式嗎？請你給我一個書面資料。","接下來，因為我們要審查的太多，請問一下，我們今年的行政院二備金，今年到目前為止使用多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前是使用45億。"],["王委員鴻薇：多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：剩下45億啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：45億喔！目前45億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：剩下45億啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：剩下45億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家都可以看到，你們報告的第4頁說動支了26億，然後今年度編列的是74億，所以如果只剩下45億，事實上是動支29億，所以今年的動支金額非常的少，對不對？今年動支非常少。這是因為過去編得比較高，後來也是按照它實質的來做合理的調整，但是明年度你們二備金又把它提高到80億，今年已經快過完了，只剩一個半月都不到，你們也不過動用了29億，你這個報告其實有誤差，那你明年度要編到80億，要增加6億，為什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，因為我們現在就是說，除了我們災準金以往是20億，那今年提高到50億。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這個我沒有什麼意見，因為是災準金，老實講我會再問你們，因為今年災損比較嚴重，應該照理講是嚴重，可是到現在為止，你也沒有給我說今年到底災準金動用了多少。你如果基於現在可能有一些氣候異常的狀況，或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心，很擔心到時候又到處淹水，所以你明年的災準金編50億，其實增加了1.5倍，對不對？從20億變50億，但是我不會有什麼意見，因為這個有災害才會用。那我請問你，二備金編那麼多幹嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：你今年用那麼少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：像今年凱米颱風就一百多億，現在山陀兒的這一個部分，還有一部分的農損還沒有報來，那我們的災準金在113年才20億，那是根本不夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！你已經增加到50億了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們今年光是災害就將近兩百多億的災損，那這個部分第二預備金也是挹注，所以目前還有45億左右相關的農損……"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，我就知道你會這樣子，你知道嗎？其實在我們的預算法裡面，只要有災損的時候，我們任何科目都可以移做災準金，對不對？我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的，但是你們其實被我們內政委員會抓到了，亂挪用啊！什麼資本門拿去做經常門啊！這個帳回來再算啦！災準金你提高我沒有什麼意見，但是災準金我剛剛講，比如今年200億，但全部災準金、二備金加起來也沒有200億，你就說你沒有錢了嗎？不會啊！你還是可以去挪用其他的科目，對不對？你知道為什麼我覺得你們二備金這樣提高沒有道理，第一個，今年度動支的那麼少，然後你明年一下提高了6億，我就覺得沒有什麼道理。因為我的時間有限，我還是要請問你，調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個就是減少的部分，主要是退休人員的部分，退休人員的部分它是5年調整一次、5年檢討一次，然後它是必須要看整個物價……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以砍了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是砍，而是說它能調整的部分必須5年調整一次，然後它要做檢討，而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調，它是裡面有規範，所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分，不是砍，是它沒有調這個部分，條件沒有成就。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼沒有成就？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它必須要消費者物價指數累計達到正負百分之五以上，這個部分才可以調整，第二個就是每4年要檢討一次，所以它有兩個條件，這兩個條件……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的資料好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我看明年度實在減少到非常少，我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是、不是，這個部分是因為退休人員……"],["王委員鴻薇：是退休軍公教？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那請你給我比較詳細的資料，因為這麼大金額的變動，我們總是要了解。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，我請一下審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長好。你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我要講的就是，其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部，我真的覺得現在的審計部大概是我們政府裡面的良心，有關於在一些預算、財務，過去你們確實也抓出很多問題，包含前瞻，前瞻問題太多了，留下一大堆的蚊子館，還有一些國防、前瞻特別預算的舉債太高，我認為審計部也都有盡到職責，所以預算的部分我不會調整，但是我想關於這些財政支出，請審計部本於過去的原則和態度，不要因為有什麼壓力，然後就開始畏首畏尾，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["王委員鴻薇：尤其前瞻到明年度，它是在最後了嘛！我知道審計部都是到最後錢花光光了以後，你們再去找問題，但是我們還是要把問題找出來，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}}