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527.79, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 527.79, \"end\": 528.391, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 528.391, \"end\": 528.511, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 528.511, \"end\": 528.831, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 528.831, \"end\": 528.931, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 528.931, \"end\": 529.031, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 529.031, \"end\": 529.832, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 529.832, \"end\": 547.063, \"text\": \"知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 529.832, \"end\": 529.952, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 529.952, \"end\": 530.412, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 530.412, \"end\": 531.613, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 531.613, \"end\": 531.713, 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\"start\": 618.502, \"end\": 618.662, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 618.662, \"end\": 618.802, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 618.802, \"end\": 619.443, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 619.443, \"end\": 619.884, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 619.884, \"end\": 620.064, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 620.064, \"end\": 620.264, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 620.264, \"end\": 620.364, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 620.364, \"end\": 620.484, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 620.484, \"end\": 620.665, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 620.665, \"end\": 620.945, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 620.945, \"end\": 622.046, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 622.046, \"end\": 622.186, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 622.186, \"end\": 622.206, \"score\": 0.018}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,166 --> 00:00:14,393\n主席賴瑞隆\n\n2\n00:00:23,581 --> 00:00:24,581\n現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:50,153 --> 00:00:57,318\n委員會還沒有開那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣\n\n4\n00:00:59,723 --> 00:01:22,049\n目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成\n\n5\n00:01:22,922 --> 00:01:38,723\n會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對\n\n6\n00:01:40,382 --> 00:02:02,763\n所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上\n\n7\n00:02:03,845 --> 00:02:19,992\n這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎\n\n8\n00:02:23,779 --> 00:02:41,527\n你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的\n\n9\n00:02:42,628 --> 00:02:59,736\n不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理\n\n10\n00:03:02,477 --> 00:03:21,908\n我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教\n\n11\n00:03:24,164 --> 00:03:45,352\n當UberEats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%UberEats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的\n\n12\n00:03:46,372 --> 00:04:12,407\n商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生\n\n13\n00:04:13,928 --> 00:04:28,181\n我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎\n\n14\n00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:54,777\n結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?\n\n15\n00:05:02,101 --> 00:05:10,397\n目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量\n\n16\n00:05:15,072 --> 00:05:41,578\n會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡\n\n17\n00:05:42,518 --> 00:06:03,553\n我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎\n\n18\n00:06:05,559 --> 00:06:26,294\n所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧\n\n19\n00:06:34,588 --> 00:06:49,002\n有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候\n\n20\n00:06:51,664 --> 00:06:55,726\n我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定\n\n21\n00:07:17,837 --> 00:07:44,710\n我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎\n\n22\n00:07:45,840 --> 00:08:08,985\n我們會慎重處理這個全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的我再提醒吶吼\n\n23\n00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:39,527\n公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案\n\n24\n00:08:41,646 --> 00:08:42,667\n主委你有收到這個函吧?\n\n25\n00:08:42,667 --> 00:08:49,832\n有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好勞動部反對你知道嗎?\n\n26\n00:08:49,832 --> 00:09:07,063\n知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒UberUberEats過去的總公司都做過這些事情\n\n27\n00:09:09,147 --> 00:09:14,391\n請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓\n\n28\n00:09:16,867 --> 00:09:42,401\n國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要\n\n29\n00:09:43,502 --> 00:10:03,805\nUber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民\n\n30\n00:10:04,626 --> 00:10:22,206\n對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好謝謝主委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n166\t14393\t主席賴瑞隆\n23581\t24581\t現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?\n50153\t57318\t委員會還沒有開 那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣\n59723\t82049\t目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成\n82922\t98723\t會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對\n100382\t122763\t所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上\n123845\t139992\t這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎\n143779\t161527\t你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的\n162628\t179736\t不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理\n182477\t201908\t我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教\n204164\t225352\t當Uber Eats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%Uber Eats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的\n226372\t252407\t商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生\n253928\t268181\t我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎\n271960\t294777\t結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?\n302101\t310397\t目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量\n315072\t341578\t會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎 抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡\n342518\t363553\t我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎\n365559\t386294\t所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧\n394588\t409002\t有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候\n411664\t415726\t我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定\n437837\t464710\t我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎\n465840\t488985\t我們會慎重處理這個 全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的 我再提醒吶吼\n491360\t519527\t公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案\n521646\t522667\t主委你有收到這個函吧?\n522667\t529832\t有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好 勞動部反對你知道嗎?\n529832\t547063\t知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情\n549147\t554391\t請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓\n556867\t582401\t國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要\n583502\t603805\tUber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民\n604626\t622206\t對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好 謝謝主委\n","txt":"主席賴瑞隆\n現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?\n委員會還沒有開 那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣\n目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成\n會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對\n所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上\n這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎\n你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的\n不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理\n我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教\n當Uber Eats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%Uber Eats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的\n商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生\n我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎\n結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?\n目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量\n會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎 抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡\n我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎\n所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧\n有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候\n我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定\n我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎\n我們會慎重處理這個 全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的 我再提醒吶吼\n公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案\n主委你有收到這個函吧?\n有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好 勞動部反對你知道嗎?\n知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情\n請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓\n國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要\nUber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民\n對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好 謝謝主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.166 --> 00:14.393\n主席賴瑞隆\n\n00:23.581 --> 00:24.581\n現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?\n\n00:50.153 --> 00:57.318\n委員會還沒有開那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣\n\n00:59.723 --> 01:22.049\n目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成\n\n01:22.922 --> 01:38.723\n會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對\n\n01:40.382 --> 02:02.763\n所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上\n\n02:03.845 --> 02:19.992\n這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎\n\n02:23.779 --> 02:41.527\n你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的\n\n02:42.628 --> 02:59.736\n不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理\n\n03:02.477 --> 03:21.908\n我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教\n\n03:24.164 --> 03:45.352\n當UberEats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%UberEats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的\n\n03:46.372 --> 04:12.407\n商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生\n\n04:13.928 --> 04:28.181\n我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎\n\n04:31.960 --> 04:54.777\n結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?\n\n05:02.101 --> 05:10.397\n目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量\n\n05:15.072 --> 05:41.578\n會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡\n\n05:42.518 --> 06:03.553\n我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎\n\n06:05.559 --> 06:26.294\n所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧\n\n06:34.588 --> 06:49.002\n有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候\n\n06:51.664 --> 06:55.726\n我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定\n\n07:17.837 --> 07:44.710\n我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎\n\n07:45.840 --> 08:08.985\n我們會慎重處理這個全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的我再提醒吶吼\n\n08:11.360 --> 08:39.527\n公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案\n\n08:41.646 --> 08:42.667\n主委你有收到這個函吧?\n\n08:42.667 --> 08:49.832\n有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好勞動部反對你知道嗎?\n\n08:49.832 --> 09:07.063\n知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒UberUberEats過去的總公司都做過這些事情\n\n09:09.147 --> 09:14.391\n請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓\n\n09:16.867 --> 09:42.401\n國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要\n\n09:43.502 --> 10:03.805\nUber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民\n\n10:04.626 --> 10:22.206\n對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好謝謝主委\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.166,"end":14.393,"text":"主席賴瑞隆"},{"start":23.581,"end":24.581,"text":"現在文件都齊備了,內部在整理這些資料開過會了嗎?"},{"start":50.153,"end":57.318,"text":"委員會還沒有開 那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣"},{"start":59.723,"end":82.049,"text":"目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成"},{"start":82.922,"end":98.723,"text":"會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對"},{"start":100.382,"end":122.763,"text":"所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上"},{"start":123.845,"end":139.992,"text":"這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎"},{"start":143.779,"end":161.527,"text":"你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的"},{"start":162.628,"end":179.736,"text":"不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理"},{"start":182.477,"end":201.908,"text":"我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教"},{"start":204.164,"end":225.352,"text":"當Uber Eats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%Uber Eats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的"},{"start":226.372,"end":252.407,"text":"商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生"},{"start":253.928,"end":268.181,"text":"我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":271.96,"end":294.777,"text":"結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?"},{"start":302.101,"end":310.397,"text":"目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量"},{"start":315.072,"end":341.578,"text":"會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎 抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡"},{"start":342.518,"end":363.553,"text":"我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎"},{"start":365.559,"end":386.294,"text":"所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧"},{"start":394.588,"end":409.002,"text":"有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候"},{"start":411.664,"end":415.726,"text":"我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定"},{"start":437.837,"end":464.71,"text":"我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎"},{"start":465.84,"end":488.985,"text":"我們會慎重處理這個 全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的 我再提醒吶吼"},{"start":491.36,"end":519.527,"text":"公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案"},{"start":521.646,"end":522.667,"text":"主委你有收到這個函吧?"},{"start":522.667,"end":529.832,"text":"有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好 勞動部反對你知道嗎?"},{"start":529.832,"end":547.063,"text":"知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情"},{"start":549.147,"end":554.391,"text":"請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓"},{"start":556.867,"end":582.401,"text":"國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要"},{"start":583.502,"end":603.805,"text":"Uber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民"},{"start":604.626,"end":622.206,"text":"對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好 謝謝主委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，大家都很關心外送平臺Uber併購foodpanda的案件，我先請教一下，這個案件已經送進來了，最快12月19日，最慢明年3月會有結果，是嗎？目前的初步討論狀況是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在文件都齊備了，內部在整理這些資料。"],["賴委員瑞隆：開過會了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員會還沒有開，我們在下禮拜還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議會進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前在整理階段當中，我們委員會還沒有進行討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以最快在12月19日會做出決定，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：法定期間是12月19日，必要的時候可以再延長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果有必要可以延長，我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定，我先請教一下，如果這兩大平臺合併的話，市占率會超過八成。"],["李主任委員鎂：會超過八成以上到九成。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你認為這樣適合嗎？你個人的態度跟想法呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成，這個在競爭法裡面會特別去關注。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，按照公平交易法的規定，獨占事業不得有下列行為，如阻礙他事業參與競爭、對於商品價格或服務報酬為不當之決定等等，甚至於濫用市場地位，主委，如果一個事業占有九成以上，這些狀況應該都會發生吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：在公平法會列出來就是它是很容易發生的情況，所以才會有這些禁制規定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以如果照這樣看的話，公平會應該不會同意這樣的併購案吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你的看法呢？你認為呢？你贊同嗎？你贊同這樣的併購案嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想到委員會裡面……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你是政務官，我覺得你可以勇敢地表達你的態度跟看法。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為我也是其中的委員，這個討論的結果先……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望這些意見你要再充分表達，公平會也是政府機構之一，所有也都必須給社會各界所檢視，政府部門要一起承擔。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要做出跟大家有非常巨大落差的決定，特別是過去Uber有很多遊說的例子，我們認為一定要嚴加防範這樣狀況的發生，好不好？不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差，而導致政府的形象受損，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會審慎處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我再次提醒，這個絕對已經具有獨占事業的性質，而且下面的行為都極有可能發生，不要等到發生之後，大家才來後悔，大家才來檢討，大家才追究責任。公平會要跟社會與時並進，要了解人民的想法，不要讓這樣的事情發生。","再來我想請教，當時Uber Eats的獲利相當好，獲利率達52%，比Uber的獲利還要好，Uber才獲利31%，Uber Eats的獲利52%，所以它想要去併購也很正常，這麼好賺，怎麼能不賺呢？當然更要獲利。它如果取得將近九成的話，基本上它更具有獨占的效果了。我們現在來看，光小型的商店抽成就要35%，大型的抽成24%，羊毛出在羊身上，這些東西難道由店家全面吸收嗎？裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收，全部轉嫁給消費者。以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣狀況，如果讓它獨占的時候，你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者，甚至於壓榨到了外送員的權益，這絕對必然發生，我可以告知主委，必然發生，所以請在內部的討論時，這些務必都要詳細地做討論，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個會討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有注意，因為大家都非常關切，我們會裡面也都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你擔憂這樣的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合案件會不會造成市場集中，以致於在市場競爭上有不利，我們都會注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你認為有沒有可能發生？如果照這樣，現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了。"],["李主任委員鎂：任何獨占事業都有可能發生這樣的情況，所以我們的法律才會把有可能的情況列出來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在還沒有獨占就已經這樣了，主委，我問你好了，小型的餐廳抽成35%，你認為呢？會不會過高？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前抽成比例，大概我的了解是25%到38%、40%不等，都會看每一個餐廳跟這個平臺的談判力量……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你認為會不會過高？"],["李主任委員鎂：會不會過高，我想要就具體的情形來看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委連會不會過高都不敢講嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，就是說，這個抽成比例……"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個一百塊的東西，可能裡面抽就要抽掉30塊、40塊，你不認為過高嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：抽成比例太高或太低，其實在競爭法，這是一個市場機制，但是如果是因為談判力量不對等，或者因為市場力集中而做不到價格決定，那是不可以的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要提醒的是，政府的功能在哪裡？我的意思是，如果現在還有兩家在競爭是長這樣子，我都認為已經過高了，然後外送員的權益已經持續地受到影響，如果它成為了獨占事業，超過九成，你可以想像絕對更高，絕對更高，百分之百更高，那政府的功能在哪裡？政府的角色在哪裡？主委認同我的看法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：所以在結合的審查裡面，一定會把這些都考量進去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法？你認不認同？"],["李主任委員鎂：我認同委員的看法，一個事業如果獨占的話，它在定價能力、各方面在市場上占有那麼大的公司……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望公平會在處理事情的時候，必須審慎地處理這件事情。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，會審慎處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它還會帶動了包括消費者權益的影響，甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們都會再考量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，認同吧？會帶動物價的影響，你認同吧？有這個可能性吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個都不排除任何的可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我們來看新加坡，CCCS在處理的時候，全世界都這樣，它的Grab是最大的，市占率63%，它併購foodpanda的時候是直接終止，它連案子都送不進來，CCCS拒絕接受，63%已經很高了，CCCS拒絕接受讓它將近九成的占比，完全不接受。新加坡絕不接受，連送案都不用送，我們公平會的態度呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的法律事業有結合，我們就要處理，至於處理禁止或不禁止，就是看個案來認定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望公平會要與人民民意同在，好不好？不要脫離了現實。我們再看，不只這樣啦！全世界的外送平臺，從美國、英國、日本、韓國、新加坡、泰國、馬來西亞、菲律賓、印度、越南、香港，沒有一家是超過七成的，頂多到六成，臺灣不要成為第一個超過九成的，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會慎重處理這個結合案。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全世界沒有人接受這件事情的發生，公平會不要成為第一個讓這件事發生的，好嗎？不要讓臺灣名列全世界第一是用這種狀況下名列世界第一的，這很難看，而且它會影響到很多消費者的權益，主委，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會慎重處理這些包括委員、包括各界關心的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再提醒公平會，這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的，只有不到一成是贊成的，我提到民意，再次提醒公平會，你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們有掌握？你們知道八成的民意是反對，只有一成是贊成，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：了解，都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括連勞動部主管的外送員，他們也表達了強烈的意見，要求跟平臺來協商，勞動部5月正式發函給公平會反對併購案，主委有收到這個函吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們知道勞動部的態度嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：各界的態度，我們其實現在都有了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：勞動部反對，你知道嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：知道。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要再講，Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多，曾經隱匿重大的犯罪，甚至於拿10萬元去付封口費。我再次提醒，Uber、Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情，請看緊所有公平會的委員們，不要被做了一些不當的遊說，導致做出錯誤的決定，讓國家或者讓公平會受到重大的傷害。我要講的是我都有提醒、走在前面，如果做出了一些奇怪的決定，將來被調查之後，是有涉入到一些弊案，甚至收了一些不該收的資源的時候，然後再被查、再被起訴、再被調查、判刑，重傷害都已經造成了。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們不會接受任何的遊說。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我提醒主委，這件事情務必要謹慎小心。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：Uber以前做過這件事情，它對美國都可以做了，它不會放過臺灣的。我只是再次提醒，公平會委員都扮演重要的角色，請務必要做出一個讓臺灣人民接受的決定，不要產生一些奇怪的決定，將來被查出一堆弊案之後，導致人民對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題，又再次受到影響。我再三提醒，我在質詢臺上正式地提醒主委要重視這個問題，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去Uber曾經做過這些事情，不要讓這件事情在臺灣繼續發生，我再次的提醒，謝謝主委。"],["主席：請邱志偉召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","陳超明","蔡易餘","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公\n平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00001"}}}