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\"end\": 490.504, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 490.504, \"end\": 490.604, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 490.604, \"end\": 491.364, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 491.364, \"end\": 491.524, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 491.524, \"end\": 491.604, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 491.604, \"end\": 491.684, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 491.684, \"end\": 491.784, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 491.784, \"end\": 491.804, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 493.985, \"end\": 521.036, \"text\": \"有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 493.985, \"end\": 494.145, 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00:02:03,982\n不管對第一島鏈國家．對菲律賓．對台灣．對日韓．那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是\n\n7\n00:02:05,714 --> 00:02:32,635\n因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外\n\n8\n00:02:33,871 --> 00:02:52,279\n沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉\n\n9\n00:02:58,821 --> 00:03:05,412\n轉戰那是另外一件事我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個\n\n10\n00:03:09,295 --> 00:03:19,518\n因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替\n\n11\n00:03:36,184 --> 00:03:59,825\n日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以\n\n12\n00:04:01,086 --> 00:04:24,464\n誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦\n\n13\n00:04:25,585 --> 00:04:54,097\n這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知\n\n14\n00:04:55,382 --> 00:05:09,649\n沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會對外統一說明那如果會過境因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了\n\n15\n00:05:11,584 --> 00:05:39,683\n假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適我們會以這個方向來做安排我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下\n\n16\n00:05:42,143 --> 00:06:00,845\n這個也是你的看法都很寶貴實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵\n\n17\n00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:24,749\n因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了\n\n18\n00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:45,986\n那個記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥,可以演講,那賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從艾運問總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:52,895 --> 00:07:20,943\n沒有什麼這個會臺美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比如說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在\n\n20\n00:07:22,023 --> 00:07:43,360\n問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割那就外交部因為你們是負責推動這個的組織單位目前有這個情形嗎\n\n21\n00:07:44,457 --> 00:08:11,804\n最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商一個重點像當年的那個英國就是宋建之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了\n\n22\n00:08:13,985 --> 00:08:41,036\n有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄\n\n23\n00:08:42,356 --> 00:09:09,873\n奧克蘭三元第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪足舉國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在\n\n24\n00:09:10,774 --> 00:09:37,530\n工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊諮商我們已經展開了臺灣有開始那個preconsultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立\n\n25\n00:09:39,617 --> 00:09:53,312\n在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許preconsultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢\n\n26\n00:09:56,667 --> 00:10:04,033\n奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決\n\n27\n00:10:23,903 --> 00:10:51,718\n這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行\n\n28\n00:10:52,458 --> 00:11:21,318\n那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣\n\n29\n00:11:22,239 --> 00:11:47,144\n我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低\n\n30\n00:11:47,944 --> 00:11:49,224\n我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?\n\n31\n00:12:17,438 --> 00:12:35,732\n我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦\n\n32\n00:12:36,112 --> 00:12:38,633\n請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1069\t1431\t林佳龍部長\n11001\t30260\t王定宇,謝謝委員所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統三天後出訪的一些行程安排那本席這邊就有關這個出訪有些問題要就教於您那我要特別提醒外交部你看日本石破茂總理他改選之後日本的媒體也跑出一堆\n31121\t32361\t有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦\n56450\t67147\t路透社報導說中共可能會在臺灣臨近地區發動軍演就這一題我要先提醒外交部中國會不會發動軍演根本不是新聞\n69735\t70075\t中共的軍事騷擾\n95529\t123982\t不管對第一島鏈國家．對菲律賓．對台灣．對日韓．那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是\n125714\t152635\t因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外\n153871\t172279\t沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉\n178821\t185412\t轉戰那是另外一件事我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個\n189295\t199518\t因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替\n216184\t239825\t日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以\n241086\t264464\t誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦\n265585\t294097\t這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知\n295382\t309649\t沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會對外統一說明那如果會過境因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了\n311584\t339683\t假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適我們會以這個方向來做安排我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下\n342143\t360845\t這個也是你的看法都很寶貴實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵\n363100\t384749\t因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了\n386050\t405986\t那個記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥,可以演講,那賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從艾運問總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?\n412895\t440943\t沒有什麼這個會臺美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比如說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在\n442023\t463360\t問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割那就外交部因為你們是負責推動這個的組織單位目前有這個情形嗎\n464457\t491804\t最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商一個重點像當年的那個英國就是宋建之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了\n493985\t521036\t有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄\n522356\t549873\t奧克蘭三元第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪足舉國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在\n550774\t577530\t工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊諮商我們已經展開了臺灣有開始那個pre consultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立\n579617\t593312\t在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許pre consultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢\n596667\t604033\t奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決\n623903\t651718\t這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行\n652458\t681318\t那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣\n682239\t707144\t我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低\n707944\t709224\t我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?\n737438\t755732\t我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦\n756112\t758633\t請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。\n","txt":"林佳龍部長\n王定宇,謝謝委員所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統三天後出訪的一些行程安排那本席這邊就有關這個出訪有些問題要就教於您那我要特別提醒外交部你看日本石破茂總理他改選之後日本的媒體也跑出一堆\n有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦\n路透社報導說中共可能會在臺灣臨近地區發動軍演就這一題我要先提醒外交部中國會不會發動軍演根本不是新聞\n中共的軍事騷擾\n不管對第一島鏈國家．對菲律賓．對台灣．對日韓．那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是\n因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外\n沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉\n轉戰那是另外一件事我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個\n因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替\n日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以\n誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦\n這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知\n沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會對外統一說明那如果會過境因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了\n假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適我們會以這個方向來做安排我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下\n這個也是你的看法都很寶貴實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵\n因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了\n那個記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥,可以演講,那賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從艾運問總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?\n沒有什麼這個會臺美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比如說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在\n問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割那就外交部因為你們是負責推動這個的組織單位目前有這個情形嗎\n最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商一個重點像當年的那個英國就是宋建之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了\n有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄\n奧克蘭三元第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪足舉國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在\n工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊諮商我們已經展開了臺灣有開始那個pre consultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立\n在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許pre consultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢\n奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決\n這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行\n那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣\n我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低\n我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?\n我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦\n請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.069 --> 00:01.431\n林佳龍部長\n\n00:11.001 --> 00:30.260\n王定宇,謝謝委員所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統三天後出訪的一些行程安排那本席這邊就有關這個出訪有些問題要就教於您那我要特別提醒外交部你看日本石破茂總理他改選之後日本的媒體也跑出一堆\n\n00:31.121 --> 00:32.361\n有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦\n\n00:56.450 --> 01:07.147\n路透社報導說中共可能會在臺灣臨近地區發動軍演就這一題我要先提醒外交部中國會不會發動軍演根本不是新聞\n\n01:09.735 --> 01:10.075\n中共的軍事騷擾\n\n01:35.529 --> 02:03.982\n不管對第一島鏈國家．對菲律賓．對台灣．對日韓．那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是\n\n02:05.714 --> 02:32.635\n因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外\n\n02:33.871 --> 02:52.279\n沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉\n\n02:58.821 --> 03:05.412\n轉戰那是另外一件事我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個\n\n03:09.295 --> 03:19.518\n因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替\n\n03:36.184 --> 03:59.825\n日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以\n\n04:01.086 --> 04:24.464\n誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦\n\n04:25.585 --> 04:54.097\n這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知\n\n04:55.382 --> 05:09.649\n沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會對外統一說明那如果會過境因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了\n\n05:11.584 --> 05:39.683\n假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適我們會以這個方向來做安排我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下\n\n05:42.143 --> 06:00.845\n這個也是你的看法都很寶貴實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵\n\n06:03.100 --> 06:24.749\n因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了\n\n06:26.050 --> 06:45.986\n那個記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥,可以演講,那賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從艾運問總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?\n\n06:52.895 --> 07:20.943\n沒有什麼這個會臺美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比如說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在\n\n07:22.023 --> 07:43.360\n問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割那就外交部因為你們是負責推動這個的組織單位目前有這個情形嗎\n\n07:44.457 --> 08:11.804\n最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商一個重點像當年的那個英國就是宋建之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了\n\n08:13.985 --> 08:41.036\n有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄\n\n08:42.356 --> 09:09.873\n奧克蘭三元第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪足舉國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在\n\n09:10.774 --> 09:37.530\n工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊諮商我們已經展開了臺灣有開始那個preconsultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立\n\n09:39.617 --> 09:53.312\n在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許preconsultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢\n\n09:56.667 --> 10:04.033\n奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決\n\n10:23.903 --> 10:51.718\n這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行\n\n10:52.458 --> 11:21.318\n那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣\n\n11:22.239 --> 11:47.144\n我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低\n\n11:47.944 --> 11:49.224\n我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?\n\n12:17.438 --> 12:35.732\n我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦\n\n12:36.112 --> 12:38.633\n請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.069,"end":1.431,"text":"林佳龍部長"},{"start":11.001,"end":30.26,"text":"王定宇,謝謝委員所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統三天後出訪的一些行程安排那本席這邊就有關這個出訪有些問題要就教於您那我要特別提醒外交部你看日本石破茂總理他改選之後日本的媒體也跑出一堆"},{"start":31.121,"end":32.361,"text":"有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦"},{"start":56.45,"end":67.147,"text":"路透社報導說中共可能會在臺灣臨近地區發動軍演就這一題我要先提醒外交部中國會不會發動軍演根本不是新聞"},{"start":69.735,"end":70.075,"text":"中共的軍事騷擾"},{"start":95.529,"end":123.982,"text":"不管對第一島鏈國家．對菲律賓．對台灣．對日韓．那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是"},{"start":125.714,"end":152.635,"text":"因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外"},{"start":153.871,"end":172.279,"text":"沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉"},{"start":178.821,"end":185.412,"text":"轉戰那是另外一件事我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個"},{"start":189.295,"end":199.518,"text":"因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替"},{"start":216.184,"end":239.825,"text":"日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以"},{"start":241.086,"end":264.464,"text":"誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦"},{"start":265.585,"end":294.097,"text":"這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知"},{"start":295.382,"end":309.649,"text":"沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會對外統一說明那如果會過境因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了"},{"start":311.584,"end":339.683,"text":"假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適我們會以這個方向來做安排我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下"},{"start":342.143,"end":360.845,"text":"這個也是你的看法都很寶貴實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵"},{"start":363.1,"end":384.749,"text":"因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了"},{"start":386.05,"end":405.986,"text":"那個記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥,可以演講,那賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從艾運問總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?"},{"start":412.895,"end":440.943,"text":"沒有什麼這個會臺美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比如說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在"},{"start":442.023,"end":463.36,"text":"問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割那就外交部因為你們是負責推動這個的組織單位目前有這個情形嗎"},{"start":464.457,"end":491.804,"text":"最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商一個重點像當年的那個英國就是宋建之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了"},{"start":493.985,"end":521.036,"text":"有沒有如同這個Political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣入會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象對因為他還沒有成立工作小組嘛不管是台灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則台灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個紀錄"},{"start":522.356,"end":549.873,"text":"奧克蘭三元第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪足舉國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在"},{"start":550.774,"end":577.53,"text":"工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊諮商我們已經展開了臺灣有開始那個pre consultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立"},{"start":579.617,"end":593.312,"text":"在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許pre consultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢"},{"start":596.667,"end":604.033,"text":"奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決"},{"start":623.903,"end":651.718,"text":"這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行"},{"start":652.458,"end":681.318,"text":"那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣"},{"start":682.239,"end":707.144,"text":"我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低"},{"start":707.944,"end":709.224,"text":"我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?"},{"start":737.438,"end":755.732,"text":"我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦"},{"start":756.112,"end":758.633,"text":"請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時58分）謝謝召委，麻煩請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長辛苦了，風塵僕僕！"],["林部長佳龍：不會，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統3天後出訪一些行程上的安排，有關出訪，本席有些問題要就教於您。我要特別提醒外交部，你看，日本石破茂總理在改選之後，日本的媒體也跑出一堆疑石破茂論、疑美論、疑川普論等等，臺灣也有類似的情形，所以有時候透明化可以揭露的資訊，在不影響國家利益、盟邦互信的前提下，儘量讓納稅人了解現在發生什麼情形，其實是可以增加信心的。以下，我快速詢問幾個問題，有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦，路透社報導說，中共可能會在臺灣鄰近地區發動軍演，就這一題，我要先提醒外交部，中國會不會發動軍演，根本不是新聞，它全年度對臺灣都有軍事騷擾動作，每個月一次聯合戰備警巡，昨天二十幾個架次的機艦騷擾臺灣，也就是說，平常它都有軍事動作，它想要取個名字，有一個政治意涵在裡面，它就要取一個名字，你現在跟它說，有喔！你有利劍三C，它就不取這個名字，讓你好像沒有信用一樣。其實中共的軍事騷擾，不管對第一島鏈國家、對菲律賓、對臺灣、對日韓，那是全年經常性存在的，只是它這一次會不會用別種形式、政治意涵的透露。外交部是國家的發言人，對於賴總統出訪期間，印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現，我們國家的立場是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為中共的威脅就如同委員講的，其實是一直在，而且不斷在加壓中，構成了新常態，當然我們跟友好國家會彼此……"],["王委員定宇：友好國家彼此平常情報交換，這個都會，我的意思是說，如果中共在我們元首……民選總統出訪是喜事，對全世界來講，這只有增加互動、和平、繁榮，沒有壞處的，可是卻有個流氓國家以這個作為威嚇的理由時，到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明？如果有的話。"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定是會發表聲明，最主要是我們要讓國人了解，因為這也是中共認知作戰的一部分，不管是從520到雙十，而它會不會由演轉戰……"],["王委員定宇：那是另外一件事。"],["林部長佳龍：那是另外一個問題，我們必須從它的這些作為當中去了解。另外一個就是可能情形的因應，我們在元首出訪的部分也有一些經驗，特別是政府在交接期間……"],["王委員定宇：劇本都有準備好了嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["王委員定宇：因為這一次如果中國把它的軍事行動，我再強調一次，它平常就有，如果它把軍事行動標記成一個政治的口號，它是有它的目的，比方說美國的政權正在交替，日本的內閣也剛組成，南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題，所以在它的這個動作上，我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備，而且橫向聯繫很重要。就我們向國防部了解起來，目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形，所以演習可能就是演習，因此誇大它的效果搞不好也是中了它的計，但小看它也沒必要，就是料敵從寬。"],["林部長佳龍：確實如委員所講，像是戰備警巡它幾乎每週都有……"],["王委員定宇：它現在已經是每週了。"],["林部長佳龍：它現在只是透過宣傳，怎麼樣去作成一種認知作戰。"],["王委員定宇：就好像沈伯洋每天會從301走過去一樣，就替他取個名字叫做沈伯洋出巡，它只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情，但它一直是在那裡借沈伯洋委員的名字用一下啦。","我這一題先到這裡打住，我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題，第一個，我們現在知道要出訪三個友邦，可能會過境夏威夷，除了這些已知的以外，有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問？"],["林部長佳龍：這次還是……"],["王委員定宇：可以講就講，不能講就不要講，我的意思是說，過境美國、南太三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了，有沒有這四個已知以外的未知？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：這次沒有。第二個，這次會過境夏威夷吧？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分總統府方面會對外統一說明。"],["王委員定宇：如果會過境，因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了，假設會過境的話……"],["林部長佳龍：我是說四大原則，就是安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適。"],["王委員定宇：那是美方對臺灣過境外交的……安全、便利、舒適嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們會以這個方向來做安排。"],["王委員定宇：我們想要關切的是外交動作，比方說到夏威夷的話，能不能到我們的駐處看一下？你點頭，你現在是說會嘛？OK，好。"],["林部長佳龍：這是你的建議啦。"],["王委員定宇：好，我的建議。第二個，我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓，能不能去鼓勵我們的官兵一下？"],["林部長佳龍：這個也是你的看法，都很寶貴。"],["王委員定宇：所以實現了就是我算得很準而已。再來，除了一些智庫、參眾議員以外，AIT理事主席通常例行會來，除非他有事，有沒有一些行政層級的訪賓？"],["林部長佳龍：有關過境的事宜，如果有安排是什麼樣的內容，我想這都涉及到雙邊，也涉及到由總統府他們會針對……"],["王委員定宇：他們到時候會發布嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對，會適時對外說明。"],["王委員定宇：但是現在我們的過境，在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣，有點像入境訪問了啦，記者跟總統不用分開飯店，記者可以「堵麥」、可以演講，賴總統這個規格不會減少吧？"],["林部長佳龍：就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例，還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則，都是……"],["王委員定宇：簡單講，從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統，我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有什麼……我們臺美關係就是如磐石般地堅定。"],["王委員定宇：對，其實我們過境外交在過去這八年有相當大的突破，尤其去丹佛那一次，所以我是希望這一次如果在過境上有些展現，比方說去看自己的代表處是有意義的，像是去慰勞我們受訓的官兵，這也有意義，一個是外交，一個是安全，這個部分我期待後續的消息。","接下來，我再問一下CPTPP的消息，這個媒體是Politico，Politico報了一個消息，我覺得蠻特別的，第一個，它說這次CPTPP的會議會把臺灣的入會案因為中國因素暫擱，就外交部來看，因為你們是負責推動這個的主責單位，目前有這個情形嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為加拿大輪值主席國，各會員在開會，就涉及到有沒有要新申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組，工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的協商。"],["王委員定宇：第一個重點，像當年的英國，就是送件之後很快速地成立工作小組，它現在已經完成入會了，現在12國了。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說，臺灣申請入會也有相當時間了，有沒有如同Politico所報導，其實這個媒體也算大媒體，它報導說因為中國因素，臺灣入會的部分這次會議就不處理，當然暫擱不是永遠暫擱，有沒有這個現象？"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為它還沒有成立工作小組，不管是臺灣或中國……"],["王委員定宇：所以就有問題。"],["林部長佳龍：即使是外面報導的其他國家，也要先成立工作小組，現在就是有奧克蘭三原則，臺灣是都很符合，第一個是高標準，第二個是沒有不良的貿易紀錄，第三點是共識決。共識決的部分，現在經過今年輪值主席國加拿大的解釋，其實要促進效率，而不能變成在擋別人，所以這個解釋我覺得對臺灣來講，共識應該是內容符合之後，最後大家來決定，而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意。而且現在有所謂的pre-consultation，也就是在工作小組之前也可以展開雙邊諮商，我們已經展開了。"],["王委員定宇：臺灣有開始進行pre-consultation的流程了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟一些對象國家就是會員國，我們是有一些諮商。"],["王委員定宇：12國都有嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：應該沒有12國都有。"],["林部長佳龍：因為它就是開一個燈，讓我們可以跟對方開始去溝通，但是針對臺灣還沒有成立正式的工作小組。"],["王委員定宇：我們工作小組還沒有成立？"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有。"],["王委員定宇：所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立？"],["林部長佳龍：還在開會當中，這兩天……"],["王委員定宇：還不確定嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對，今天跟明天。"],["王委員定宇：我們還沒有成立工作小組，這次CPTPP的會議會不會讓臺灣成立工作小組是未知，但是允許pre-consultation也就是預先協商，我們現在跟12國中的幾國進行預商了？"],["林部長佳龍：這個比較不方便對外透露，因為大家都知道中共的加入，它不太符合標準，可是因為它也去申請，所以就導致一些國家可能會比較有顧慮。"],["王委員定宇：奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄，臺灣OK了，立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法，我們已經符合高標準的貿易規範，我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決，這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對，這又不一樣喔！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：大家同意跟沒有人反對，這種consensus的「眉角」就很多。"],["林部長佳龍：就是反對的人要說理由啦，不能說……"],["王委員定宇：所以我要提的就是，如果因為中國因素被暫擱，這絕對是不對的，因為中國永遠無法符合高標準的貿易規範，如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範，變成綁架臺灣把它帶進CPTPP，這也不行，擋住臺灣不能參加，更不行。所以中國因素，這是一個貿易團體、貿易組織，應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視相關條件，如果錯誤地把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話，我們臺灣要等到中國達標那一天，不知道哪一年哪一月了。","我最後只請問一個問題，根據媒體報導，馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見，這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明，其實沒有人反對臺灣，現在只是所謂的共識決需不需要臺灣獲得百分之百的……現在是11加1，英國是今年加入的；而加拿大做輪值主席國，對於奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓臺灣也可以諮商以外，反對的國家必須要講理由，比如說，如果那個反對我們國家參加的自由貿易程度比臺灣還低，人家就會覺得他是政治因素，我覺得這個有一點是說，我們本來要去說服大家，可是現在變成反對我們參加的要去說服大家。"],["王委員定宇：加拿大這部分是有幫忙，等於說你要反對，你要說出違反奧克蘭三原則的理由在哪裡，但國際政治我們不能這麼天真爛漫可愛，有時候……"],["林部長佳龍：也就是我們並沒有被拒絕，但是我們要得到更多國家的支持。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的問題你沒有回答，就是馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有得到他們說不贊成的訊息。"],["王委員定宇：因為我從新加坡那邊看起來，其實新加坡跟臺灣的經貿還算滿正常的，兩國還有FTA，他怎麼有意見？那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事，我想……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的，沒有反對的……"],["王委員定宇：因為CPTPP對我國的經貿……"],["林部長佳龍：可是要不要成立工作小組，這個是由他們會員國在這兩天決定哪一個國家可以先成立工作小組。"],["王委員定宇：請你密切注意，我們在審總預算的時候，大概就知道了，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}}