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00:01:10,435\n在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的\n\n4\n00:01:11,755 --> 00:01:28,687\n你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那什麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒\n\n5\n00:01:29,540 --> 00:01:58,379\n那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部也沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎\n\n6\n00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:19,084\n還是要看國防部的回應任期結束了我們會做適當處理任期多久一次任期到明年大概4月5月所以他今年被職許的第一次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎是不是這意思不是他這個我上任之前就已經是這個這個申訴委員了\n\n7\n00:02:24,013 --> 00:02:47,790\n日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名那曾過去也採訪過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為\n\n8\n00:02:49,811 --> 00:03:07,038\n公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主委同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事\n\n9\n00:03:11,351 --> 00:03:24,709\n主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶\n\n10\n00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:41,705\n要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些\n\n11\n00:03:45,026 --> 00:03:46,847\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n\n12\n00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:20,964\n這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條秘密當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為\n\n13\n00:04:22,534 --> 00:04:23,875\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管\n\n14\n00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:49,832\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n\n15\n00:05:07,819 --> 00:05:35,620\n我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊那當然是專利\n\n16\n00:05:38,547 --> 00:05:57,215\n所以我才問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打架的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情\n\n17\n00:06:01,537 --> 00:06:28,838\n還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中間立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我們希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧\n\n18\n00:06:30,362 --> 00:06:52,220\n六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛\n\n19\n00:06:54,003 --> 00:07:05,808\n審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供\n\n20\n00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:35,606\n我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明\n\n21\n00:07:38,018 --> 00:07:59,891\n委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符納要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講\n\n22\n00:08:00,891 --> 00:08:21,534\n因為這個執委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞\n\n23\n00:08:22,535 --> 00:08:39,617\n今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護\n\n24\n00:08:40,518 --> 00:08:56,434\n你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則\n\n25\n00:08:57,546 --> 00:09:21,509\n我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開\n\n26\n00:09:23,018 --> 00:09:45,832\n如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的\n\n27\n00:09:48,717 --> 00:10:01,166\n我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定\n\n28\n00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:21,847\n我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告\n\n29\n00:10:22,828 --> 00:10:45,977\n申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員\n\n30\n00:10:49,915 --> 00:11:07,586\n如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規\n\n31\n00:11:08,632 --> 00:11:26,281\n跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後\n\n32\n00:11:29,543 --> 00:11:57,794\n給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案\n\n33\n00:11:59,811 --> 00:12:26,639\n對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝\n\n34\n00:12:29,335 --> 00:12:29,357\n審查\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4383\t7494\t好主席謝謝吼那我們先請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n16758\t39506\t委員早主委早主委喔這個我想這個你可以清楚我要問什麼這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係喔那當然我想這個工程會這邊有這個所謂政府採購法那有這個採購申訴的審議委員會那主要當然就是因為這個公共工程喔如果是這個旅業廠商對相關事情有疑義的時候這個申訴委員會能夠來處理嘛好那第一件事情是我想跟請教一下主委\n41035\t70435\t在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的\n71755\t88687\t你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那什麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒\n89540\t118379\t那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部也沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎\n119760\t139084\t還是要看國防部的回應任期結束了我們會做適當處理任期多久一次任期到明年大概4月5月所以他今年被職許的第一次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎是不是這意思不是他這個我上任之前就已經是這個這個申訴委員了\n144013\t167790\t日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名那曾過去也採訪過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為\n169811\t187038\t公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主委同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事\n191351\t204709\t主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶\n206400\t221705\t要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些\n225026\t226847\t委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n252719\t260964\t這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條秘密當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為\n262534\t263875\t委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管\n285990\t289832\t委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n307819\t335620\t我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊那當然是專利\n338547\t357215\t所以我才問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打架的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情\n361537\t388838\t還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中間立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我們希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧\n390362\t412220\t六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛\n414003\t425808\t審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供\n426516\t455606\t我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明\n458018\t479891\t委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符納要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講\n480891\t501534\t因為這個執委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞\n502535\t519617\t今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護\n520518\t536434\t你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則\n537546\t561509\t我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開\n563018\t585832\t如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的\n588717\t601166\t我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定\n604710\t621847\t我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告\n622828\t645977\t申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員\n649915\t667586\t如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規\n668632\t686281\t跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後\n689543\t717794\t給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案\n719811\t746639\t對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝\n749335\t749357\t審查\n","txt":"好主席謝謝吼那我們先請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n委員早主委早主委喔這個我想這個你可以清楚我要問什麼這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係喔那當然我想這個工程會這邊有這個所謂政府採購法那有這個採購申訴的審議委員會那主要當然就是因為這個公共工程喔如果是這個旅業廠商對相關事情有疑義的時候這個申訴委員會能夠來處理嘛好那第一件事情是我想跟請教一下主委\n在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的\n你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那什麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒\n那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部也沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎\n還是要看國防部的回應任期結束了我們會做適當處理任期多久一次任期到明年大概4月5月所以他今年被職許的第一次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎是不是這意思不是他這個我上任之前就已經是這個這個申訴委員了\n日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名那曾過去也採訪過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為\n公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主委同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事\n主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶\n要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條秘密當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊那當然是專利\n所以我才問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打架的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情\n還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中間立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我們希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧\n六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛\n審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供\n我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明\n委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符納要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講\n因為這個執委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞\n今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護\n你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則\n我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開\n如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的\n我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定\n我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告\n申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員\n如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規\n跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後\n給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案\n對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝\n審查\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.383 --> 00:07.494\n好主席謝謝吼那我們先請工程會陳主委好請陳主委\n\n00:16.758 --> 00:39.506\n委員早主委早主委喔這個我想這個你可以清楚我要問什麼這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係喔那當然我想這個工程會這邊有這個所謂政府採購法那有這個採購申訴的審議委員會那主要當然就是因為這個公共工程喔如果是這個旅業廠商對相關事情有疑義的時候這個申訴委員會能夠來處理嘛好那第一件事情是我想跟請教一下主委\n\n00:41.035 --> 01:10.435\n在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的\n\n01:11.755 --> 01:28.687\n你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那什麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒\n\n01:29.540 --> 01:58.379\n那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部也沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎\n\n01:59.760 --> 02:19.084\n還是要看國防部的回應任期結束了我們會做適當處理任期多久一次任期到明年大概4月5月所以他今年被職許的第一次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎是不是這意思不是他這個我上任之前就已經是這個這個申訴委員了\n\n02:24.013 --> 02:47.790\n日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名那曾過去也採訪過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為\n\n02:49.811 --> 03:07.038\n公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主委同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事\n\n03:11.351 --> 03:24.709\n主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶\n\n03:26.400 --> 03:41.705\n要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些\n\n03:45.026 --> 03:46.847\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n\n04:12.719 --> 04:20.964\n這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條秘密當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為\n\n04:22.534 --> 04:23.875\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管\n\n04:45.990 --> 04:49.832\n委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監\n\n05:07.819 --> 05:35.620\n我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊那當然是專利\n\n05:38.547 --> 05:57.215\n所以我才問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打架的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情\n\n06:01.537 --> 06:28.838\n還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中間立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我們希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧\n\n06:30.362 --> 06:52.220\n六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛\n\n06:54.003 --> 07:05.808\n審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供\n\n07:06.516 --> 07:35.606\n我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明\n\n07:38.018 --> 07:59.891\n委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符納要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講\n\n08:00.891 --> 08:21.534\n因為這個執委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞\n\n08:22.535 --> 08:39.617\n今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護\n\n08:40.518 --> 08:56.434\n你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則\n\n08:57.546 --> 09:21.509\n我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開\n\n09:23.018 --> 09:45.832\n如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的\n\n09:48.717 --> 10:01.166\n我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定\n\n10:04.710 --> 10:21.847\n我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告\n\n10:22.828 --> 10:45.977\n申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員\n\n10:49.915 --> 11:07.586\n如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規\n\n11:08.632 --> 11:26.281\n跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後\n\n11:29.543 --> 11:57.794\n給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案\n\n11:59.811 --> 12:26.639\n對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝\n\n12:29.335 --> 12:29.357\n審查\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.383,"end":7.494,"text":"好主席謝謝吼那我們先請工程會陳主委好請陳主委"},{"start":16.758,"end":39.506,"text":"委員早主委早主委喔這個我想這個你可以清楚我要問什麼這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係喔那當然我想這個工程會這邊有這個所謂政府採購法那有這個採購申訴的審議委員會那主要當然就是因為這個公共工程喔如果是這個旅業廠商對相關事情有疑義的時候這個申訴委員會能夠來處理嘛好那第一件事情是我想跟請教一下主委"},{"start":41.035,"end":70.435,"text":"在這個採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面今年就在今年而已五月的時候不管是黃國昌委員還是游浩委員的時候都提過這個你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯這個律師他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會的時候那當然當初有這個有涉嫌有福報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用那當時呢這個已經是陳主委了陳主委那就是說你也不能接受這樣子的這個事情要暫停這個不是我說的"},{"start":71.755,"end":88.687,"text":"你答詢的時候有說啊我沒有說不能接受我說這個我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件那他暫停之後那什麼現在此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位這個王大律師因為他的申訴文有任期然後勒"},{"start":89.54,"end":118.379,"text":"那他發生的事情在擔任申訴委員之前我會向國防部來這個函詢那國防部也沒有證實他任何這些媒體所報導的事情所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他這個擔任這個相關的調解委所以主委你是說現在雖然名單上面有這個人但是他實務上面都沒有再派案給他了沒有錯那明年會繼續派嗎"},{"start":119.76,"end":139.084,"text":"還是要看國防部的回應任期結束了我們會做適當處理任期多久一次任期到明年大概4月5月所以他今年被職許的第一次提出來的時候是剛拚的時候嗎是不是這意思不是他這個我上任之前就已經是這個這個申訴委員了"},{"start":144.013,"end":167.79,"text":"日期到明年4月、5月對好那另外一個事情是最近新聘的我想這個媒體有部分有報導我想主委很清楚我想就教一下主委啊像這個孔大律師我想他業界也非常有名那曾過去也採訪過非常多公共工程的一些申訴的案件之前是接官打官司嘛那現在主委你把他聘請來當任我們這個申訴審議委員會的話會不會擔心他成為"},{"start":169.811,"end":187.038,"text":"公共工程委員會這邊跟這個廠商之間在調解的時候這個是個障礙啊孔律師在律師界備受敬重是沒錯他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主委同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事"},{"start":191.351,"end":204.709,"text":"主委我們當然知道他是很重要的律師我剛才提到他是業界非常有名的非常受尊重的律師那今天問題是今天你聘他來當我們這個申訴委員會的委員的時候那他如果遇到以前的客戶"},{"start":206.4,"end":221.705,"text":"要跟工程會之間有調節的時候那他的立場怎麼辦?工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則律師也有倫理的規定所以一有不適當的因迴避就會迴避所以主委你確認說每一次的申訴裡面這些"},{"start":225.026,"end":226.847,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":252.719,"end":260.964,"text":"這個迴避當然你們有針對有13條秘密當然有一些具體的項目但是我想業界或是大家今天會拿出來這個爆料裡面拿出來講的原因就是因為"},{"start":262.534,"end":263.875,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管"},{"start":285.99,"end":289.832,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":307.819,"end":335.62,"text":"我跟你報告我們根據採購申訴委員會的主準則他必須是專業的包括承認法官、檢察官、律師或學者或者是工程方面的學者有一定的標準我覺得沒有指責任何我也不是直接指控說這一位啦那我要的是說今天你們在大家期待說申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的這是大家的期待要專業專業跟中立實務經驗中立也很重要啊那當然是專利"},{"start":338.547,"end":357.215,"text":"所以我才問為什麼今天特別要聘這樣的一個知名律師因為過去他竟然業界很多的案子有很多的跟政府打架的經驗他接政府的案子更多我知道啊那他如果參加審議委的話他到底的立場他在捍衛政府的權利他遇到爭議的時候他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情"},{"start":361.537,"end":388.838,"text":"還是要站在業界立場出席還是站在中間立場出席他如果申訴委員的調解他就是該迴避迴避其他就是秉公處理嘛好主委我還有時間不夠那當然我們希望你能夠堅持這個立迴避的問題那最後啊我想採購申訴審議委會裡面有所謂的一般的這個一般的委員跟這個諮詢委員那諮詢委員的話呢目前是沒有人數限制目前有64人嘛是吧"},{"start":390.362,"end":412.22,"text":"六十到七十六十四那在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候你們說因為諮詢委員涉及個資所以不便提供我想問一下同樣的不管是一般的審議委員剛剛提到的審議委員也好還是這個諮詢委員他們都有所謂的這個都有一規定來知己兼職酬勞嘛"},{"start":414.003,"end":425.808,"text":"審議委員最高上限三萬元那每月諮詢委員上限是兩萬元那既然都有領這個所謂的三萬元或兩萬元都有領這個所謂的兼職酬勞的話為什麼呢諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供"},{"start":426.516,"end":455.606,"text":"我跟委員報告喔申訴委員是當這個廠商他要求這個調解的時候他可以建立申訴委員所以申訴委員法律規定必須公開的我們依法公開那諮詢委員呢他是接受諮詢他並不是參與大會的這個調解的委員所以按照各執法呢我們無權公開各執法哪一條啊對不起主委我想請副主委跟你說明"},{"start":458.018,"end":479.891,"text":"委員好那因為剛剛主委大概有說明了那因為各執法第16條那麼如果要公開它有一些要做目的外的使用它有一些要件那各個要件要去答別如果沒有符納要件公開尤其是由公務員公開的話那麼刑責可能會加重所以對我們來講"},{"start":480.891,"end":501.534,"text":"因為這個執委他基本上他只是一個資料庫那當時我們去徵詢他們的時候也沒有跟他們詢問說你要不要讓我們公開所以我們現在無權去把他公開我想這樣啦不管主委副主委今天不管是今天既然像沈議員他當然有領他有領所謂的車馬費或是所謂的這個接任者這個酬勞"},{"start":502.535,"end":519.617,"text":"今天諮詢委員他同樣也有領取這個公帑的部分嘛那既然有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護"},{"start":520.518,"end":536.434,"text":"你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則"},{"start":537.546,"end":561.509,"text":"我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開"},{"start":563.018,"end":585.832,"text":"如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的"},{"start":588.717,"end":601.166,"text":"我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定"},{"start":604.71,"end":621.847,"text":"我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告"},{"start":622.828,"end":645.977,"text":"申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員"},{"start":649.915,"end":667.586,"text":"如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規"},{"start":668.632,"end":686.281,"text":"跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後"},{"start":689.543,"end":717.794,"text":"給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案"},{"start":719.811,"end":746.639,"text":"對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝"},{"start":749.335,"end":749.357,"text":"審查"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時45分）主席謝謝。先請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委早。主委，我想你也清楚我要問什麼，這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係。工程會有所謂的政府採購法，有採購申訴審議委員會，主要當然就是如果公共工程的履約廠商對於相關事情有疑義的時候，申訴委員會能夠來處理。第一件事情想請教主委，在採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面，今年，就在今年而已，5月的時候，不管是黃國昌委員還是游顥委員都提過，你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯律師，他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會委員的時候，有涉嫌浮報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用，當時已經是陳主委了，陳主委就說，你也不能接受這樣的事情，要暫停……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是我說的。"],["黃委員健豪：你答詢的時候有說啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：我沒有說不能接受，我是說我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件。"],["黃委員健豪：他暫停之後，為什麼現在、此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位王大律師？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為他的申訴委員有任期。"],["黃委員健豪：然後呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：他發生的事情是在擔任申訴委員之前，我們有向國防部函詢，國防部也沒有證實任何媒體所報導的事情，所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他擔任相關的調解委員。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委的意思是，現在雖然名單上面有這個人，但是實務上面都沒有再派案給他了？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：明年會繼續派嗎？還是要看國防部的回應？"],["陳主任委員金德：任期結束後我們會做適當處理。"],["黃委員健豪：任期是多久一次？"],["陳主任委員金德：任期到明年大概4月、5月。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他今年第一次提出來的時候是剛聘的時候，是不是這個意思？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，我上任之前，他就已經是申訴委員了。"],["黃委員健豪：任期到明年4月、5月？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["黃委員健豪：另外一個事情是最近新聘的，部分媒體有報導，我想主委也很清楚，我想就教一下主委，像孔大律師他在業界也非常有名，過去也承辦非常多關於公共工程的申訴案件，之前是打官司嘛！現在主委把他聘請來擔任申訴審議委員會委員的話，會不會擔心他成為公共工程委員會跟廠商之間在調解時候的障礙？"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師在律師界備受敬重。"],["黃委員健豪：是，沒錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主任委員……"],["黃委員健豪：這個我們知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事……"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我們當然知道他是很重要的律師，我剛才提到他是業界非常有名也受人敬重的律師。"],["陳主任委員金德：非常受敬重的律師。"],["黃委員健豪：今天的問題是，你聘他來當申訴委員會的委員，他如果遇到以前的客戶跟工程會之間有調解的時候，他的立場怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則，律師也有倫理的規定，所以一有不適當的，應迴避就會迴避。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委，你可以確認每一次的申訴裡面，名單上的這些委員跟他在業界裡所接觸到的廠商不會有利益迴避的問題嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們在選擇調解的時候，當事人都會問有沒有需要迴避的？不只廠商，如果相對的過去打官司的法院等等也需要迴避，他都需要迴避。"],["黃委員健豪：好，再來，既然你確認這件事情，我們希望這個還是能夠確實來執行，因為關於迴避，第十三條裡面當然有一些具體的項目，但是我想業界或是爆料者會拿出來講的原因就是因為，比如說律師本身在業界非常有名，我想他的影響力也非常大，如果你今天聘他來當審議委員，在調解的過程裡面，或許他迴避了，但是說實話，這麼久了，你也很清楚，他自己就在迴避了，但他會不會有實質影響其他委員的實力呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，孔律師不會只接乙方的案，就是承包商的案，他大部分是接政府的案，在交通部高鐵局裡面，過去曾經委託孔律師有三十幾件的訴訟案……"],["黃委員健豪：有，這個採購網站都有查到，我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：非訟案件兩百多件，所以你指責或者是影射孔律師不適任，我想這不太公平。"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有指責喔！我是要問主委，你今天去聘用審議委員的原則是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟你報告，我們根據採購申訴審議委員會組織準則，他必須是專業的，包括曾任法官、檢察官、律師或學者，或者是工程方面的學者，有一定的標準。"],["黃委員健豪：我今天沒有指責任何人，我也不是直接指控這一位，我要說的是，今天大家期待的申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的，這是大家的期待。"],["陳主任委員金德：要專業、有實務經驗。"],["黃委員健豪：專業跟中立，中立也很重要啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：他當然是中立。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我才問，為什麼今天特別要聘這樣一個知名律師？因為過去他既然在業界有很多的案子，有很多跟政府打交道的經驗……"],["陳主任委員金德：剛才跟你說明了，他接政府的案子更多。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道啊！如果他參加審議委員會的話，到底他的立場……"],["陳主任委員金德：他是在捍衛政府的權利……"],["黃委員健豪：他遇到爭議的時候，他到底是站在……照主委的意思的話，他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情，還是站在業界的立場做事情，還是站在中立的立場做事情？"],["陳主任委員金德：他沒有任何立場，他如果申訴委員的調解，他就是該迴避的迴避，其他就是秉公處理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委，我時間不夠，當然我希望你能夠堅持利益迴避的問題。最後，採購申訴審議委員會裡面有所謂的一般委員跟諮詢委員，諮詢委員目前是沒有人數限制，目前有64人，是吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：60到70人，64人。"],["黃委員健豪：在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候，你們說，因為諮詢委員涉及個資，所以不便提供。我想問一下，同樣地，不管是一般的審議委員，就是剛剛提到的審議委員也好，還是諮詢委員也好，他們都有依規定來支給兼職酬勞，審議委員最高上限是3萬元，每位諮詢委員上限是2萬元，既然不論3萬元或2萬元都有領所謂的兼職酬勞的話，為什麼諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供的？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，申訴委員是當廠商要求調解的時候，他可以建議申訴委員，所以申訴委員依法律規定必須公開，我們依法公開。至於諮詢委員，他是接受諮詢，他並不是參與大會調解的委員，所以按照個資法，我們無權公開。"],["黃委員健豪：個資法哪一條啊？對不起，主委，我想知道……"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你說明。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。剛剛主委大概有說明了，因為個資法第十六條如果要公開，要做目的外的使用，它有一些要件，各個要件要去搭配，如果沒有符合要件就去公開，尤其是由公務員公開的話，那麼刑責可能會加重。所以對我們來講，因為諮委基本上只是一個資料庫，當時我們去徵詢他們的時候，也沒有跟他們詢問要不要讓我們公開，所以我們現在無權去把他們公開。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這樣啦！主委、副主委，像審議委員當然有領所謂的車馬費或是兼任的酬勞，今天諮詢委員同樣也有領取公帑，既然有領取，基於監督原則，我們就覺得你們應該要提供名單，不管是給立法院也好，還是給誰也好，不然你不提供的話，我們怎麼知道你的聘用標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們按照資訊公開，該公開的就一定公開；按照個資保護，要保護的一定保護。"],["黃委員健豪：如果已經有領國家的薪水、有領國家的資源，怎麼會受個資法保護呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：個資保護不會因為有領出席費或是相關費用而必須公開，這樣會違反個資保護，我想沒有這樣的例外原則。"],["黃委員健豪：我想在同樣的準則裡面，既然諮詢委員跟審議委員都在同一條法律裡面，沒有道理今天評議的人、決定結果的人……"],["陳主任委員金德：是不同的法律，一個是資訊公開，所以申訴委員我們就依法公開，而個資保護的是諮詢委員，我們無權代他公開，他領多少錢、什麼案件，這個我們都無權替他公開。"],["黃委員健豪：如果今天他們是純粹、真的單純諮詢，也沒有要領任何的費用，不管什麼兩萬、三萬、幾千塊，他們都不領，純粹諮詢的話，當然我認為他的確可以不用公開，但是今天既然……"],["陳主任委員金德：諮詢當然有領出席費。"],["黃委員健豪：他既然有領出席費，你又可以這樣子聘，因為他的人數沒有上限，也沒有什麼法令的要件。"],["陳主任委員金德：當然有上限，這是行之有年，不是我就任才有的。"],["黃委員健豪：我今天要講的是，今天既然有領這個薪水、有領這個錢，為什麼諮詢委員不能公開？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，他有沒有領出席費，並不是就可以違背個資保護法的規定。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這樣，主委，如果你這麼堅持的話，反正等一下臨時提案會來處理。因為我認為既然你有領國家的公帑，而且在採購申訴審議委員會組織準則裡面都有相關法令……"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，有關申訴委員的調解履約爭議，他是提出調解的建議，並不是判定廠商對還是機關對，這個調解建議還是要雙方都同意才成立，他只是提出調解建議。有時候在進行調解需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與，所以才有聘請諮詢委員。"],["黃委員健豪：如果按照這個組織準則，其實裡面並沒有特別提到，我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條，像是「申訴會委員、諮詢委員均為無給職。但得依規定支給兼職酬勞。」這是放在同一條、第十二條裡面去討論的。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，個資保護是法律，組織準則是工程會裡面的內規。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員補充一下，包括申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開，所以我們沒有做不同的處理。"],["黃委員健豪：這是兩件事情，我沒有說要公開他的薪資。我要的是，第一件事情就是諮詢委員是哪些人會被諮詢？因為他是在背後提供意見，今天是有問題來問諮詢委員，委員給出意見之後，再送到審議會裡面去調解，是不是這樣子？邏輯上是不是這樣走？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，申訴委員進行履約爭議調解的時候分成兩部分，第一部分我們會指定申訴委員預審，這個預審大概二到三名，有工程的、有法律的或是會計等等，有時候不只是土木工程，也有化工工程或其他工程，所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢，他會參與預審，甚至協助擬定調解建議的草案。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，我是說……沒關係，主席站起來了，待會我們臨時提案繼續討論。提供意見的人，如果他不用公開的話，我想對於業者或對於來調解的人、來申訴的人，他會覺得沒有安全感，因為審議委員是有官方公開的名冊，可以知道哪些人會參與審議，但沒有人知道諮詢委員耶！"],["陳主任委員金德：而且這些調解爭議將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同決定。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，主委，我們等一下繼續討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員發言。","我們現在先進行臨時提案之處理，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","行政院公共工程委員會（以下簡稱工程會）下設採購申訴審議委員會（以下簡稱申訴會）就機關與廠商間採購爭議受理申訴與調解案，《採購申訴審議委員會組織準則》明定申訴會置委員7人至35人，申訴會委員名單經工程會公開於工程會網站可供查詢，然而申訴會除申訴會委員外，依照前開申訴會組織準則，主管機關及直轄市、縣（市）政府得視業務需要，遴聘學者、專家為申訴會諮詢委員，提供個案諮詢意見供調解委員參考，或依委員指示整理、撰擬建議草本，以利後續辦理提送委員大會審議。諮詢委員無人數限制，目前有64人。工程會並以涉及個資問題為由不便對外公開申訴會諮詢委員名單。","經查申訴會組織準則並無明文規定諮詢委員不得公開之情事，其名單之公開亦非屬《政府資訊公開法》應限制公開或不予提供之情形，為維護政府資訊公開制度，保障人民知的權利，工程會應於1週內公開申訴會諮詢委員名單，不應以個資問題遮掩。","提案人：黃健豪　　魯明哲　　廖先翔","二、","行政院公共工程委員會（以下簡稱工程會）下設採購申訴審議委員會（以下簡稱申訴會）就機關與廠商間採購爭議受理申訴與調解案。《採購申訴審議委員會組織準則》明訂申訴會置委員7人至35人，另主管機關及直轄市、縣（市）政府得視業務需要，遴聘學者、專家為申訴會諮詢委員，提供個案諮詢意見供調解委員參考，或依委員指示整理、撰擬建議草本，以利後續辦理提送委員大會審議。諮詢委員無人數限制，目前有64人。","經查，申訴會組織準則明文規定「申訴會委員及諮詢委員均為無給職，但得依規定支給兼職酬勞」，兼職酬勞含出席費及審查費，每年度工程會公務預算均編列申訴會委員出席費及審查費經費，114年編列20,470千元，立法委員有審查行政機關預算之職責，工程會公務預算編列委員出席費及審查費細目為何，工程會均負有提供之義務。爰要求工程會應於1週內提供申訴會委員及諮詢委員實際參與案件審查之內容，含參與委員、案件名及兼職酬勞明細提供本院交通委員會委員。","提案人：黃健豪　　魯明哲　　廖先翔"],["主席：請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？行政單位要不要先說明？請副主委。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：主席以及各位委員，大家好。很感謝委員提出這樣的提案，可能要跟委員報告一下我們面臨的問題。","這個剛剛有跟委員稍微解釋過了，因為我們的申訴委員是相當於訴願會的組織，因為訴願會有對外公開，所以我們這個申訴委員的部分也必須公開，況且因為我們的機制是爭議兩造可以事先來建議申訴委員，所以我們就申訴委員的部分在一開始徵詢的時候就有請求他們公開，所以那一部分我們公開沒有問題。有關諮詢委員的部分，因為他等於是我們的一個資料庫，諮詢委員的工作基本上並沒有直接去決定調解建議的內容，他基本上只是協助委員，幫忙整理一些爭點以及委員的意見，他最後得出來的意見或是整理出來的意見必須交給申訴委員，並不是他可以自己決定的，那麼也是基於這樣的一個理由，我們並沒有要求諮詢委員的資訊必須公開。","現在如果依照這個提案，要求我們予以公開，尤其是包括他的案件跟兼職的酬勞，因為案件本身又牽涉到廠商，有的廠商事實上不希望它的爭議案件被公開，這可能就會陷我們違反個人資料保護法第十六條，因為我們當時蒐集這些諮委的名單是供我們內部去指派委員所用，如果我們要提供給貴院，那麼可能就會變成是特定目的外的使用。特定目的外的使用，依照個人資料保護法第十六條，它必須符合七款的情況之一，我們看本案的情形似乎都不符合個資法例外公開的規定，所以這個對我們來講可能會有一點窒礙難行，如果我們強行公開，可能會陷我們被個資擁有者索求，甚至我們可能因為公務員身分，也必須負擔相關的刑事責任，所以這一部分還請委員諒察。如果委員有比較具體的個案，也許可以提供給我們，我們逕行去調查、查處，再跟委員報告，是不是可以用這種方式？以上報告，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝副主委的說明，請問提案委員黃健豪委員，是不是可以接受剛剛陳副主委的建議？"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝主席。這是兩個案子，第一個案子，我先講，不是針對個案，我沒有什麼個案要跟各位反映，純粹就針對政府資訊公開法的部分提出一些建議跟想法。第一個，當然，還是回到那個問題，就是諮詢委員，今天我們要他公布諮詢委員的原因，就是在於他用涉及個資的問題來當作理由說不能對外公開，但是我覺得這個理由有點牽強，因為在政府資訊公開法裡面，它有規定限制公開或不予提供的狀況，所以依照這個狀況來講，看起來沒有，因為這是公共利益嘛，它是針對跟政府採購有關的，並不是只有私權的爭議，它是進行政府採購，跟政府機關有疑義發生的時候才需要做這件事情。所以我認為第一個提案是要公開所謂的申訴委員會名單，這樣我們才能知道他怎麼樣聘用，聘用哪些人？是不是具有相關專業？我想這應該是監督的一個基本環節，這是第一件事情。","第二案，當然，兼職酬勞明細、案件名稱等等，如果涉及到廠商的部分，的確不一定要按照原文提案來做，但是我覺得還是要有基本的審議標準，要不然我們不知道一年2,000萬的錢到底是給了哪些人花了去？基於什麼原因？加上工程會在昨天回復的報告裡面有講說，關於申訴的過程，不用寫原因只要寫結論，所以我覺得編列這樣的錢進去，立法院完全看不到，也不知道這筆錢到底給了哪些人，基於什麼原因給他，我覺得這還是不太合理的，所以我認為，當然，案件跟酬勞明細的確可以省略，但是你不能完全空白，空白授權說我要2,000萬，工程會愛怎麼發就怎麼發，以上。"],["主席：好，請副主委再說明。"],["魯委員明哲：在原位說明，好不好？有麥克風。"],["主席：好，請副主委說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：不好意思，跟委員報告，事實上並沒有媒體所報導的，我們有委員要求調解建議不要附理由，他事實上是在舉例說，譬如法院的調解、鄉鎮公所的調解，甚至勞動的調解，他們基本上都不會附理由，只有結果。他希望我們工程會的調解理由能夠簡單一點，因為我們通常寫得非常長，通常寫得比判決書還長，那麼也有接收到各界的反映，但是因為當時在討論的時候，他有點是個人的意見，所以我們從頭到尾都還是維持現在調解建議書還是要附具理由，而且還附具相當詳盡的理由，這一點還是跟委員說明一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陳主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟幾位委員報告，工程會的申訴委員會處理履約爭議，案件非常多，過去備受反映的意見是認為，每個案件的處理提出調解建議的時間太長，太長是因為整個調解的過程有一點類似法院的審理或者是判決，所以處理的時間會很長，案件很多，每個委員擔負的案件非常多，我們要改善那種處理的時效，所以必須增加人手或聘請諮詢委員來協助預審，甚至擬具調解建議，讓整個調解的過程能夠縮短，讓它時效加快，否則一個案子如果拖個一年、兩年，有些廠商的押標金押在那裡，可能會倒，所以時效非常重要，所以我們讓諮詢委員來協助預審、來整理這些意見，這是考量之一。另外，剛才副主委也說了，法院的調解建議也沒有提出理由書，所以我們在這兩方面的考量，目的是為了改善目前整個調解的時效。"],["主席：好，我們在場委員還有沒有其他意見？好，林俊憲委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主席、各位同仁。現在工程會的諮詢委員總表是有公布，你剛提的是這樣？64個人，名單有沒有公布？沒有公布嘛，就是說這個諮詢委員是在幫你們預審一些案件，剛剛主委的答復是這樣，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員……"],["林委員俊憲：那他會不會……"],["陳副主任委員為祥：他不是幫我們預審，他是幫我們的申訴委員……"],["林委員俊憲：對，就申訴委員會嘛，然後他的報告再送給申訴委員會嘛。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：通常他也不會自己寫意見，他只是提供意見而已，是由申訴委員……"],["林委員俊憲：申訴委員來做最後的裁決嘛。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["林委員俊憲：申訴人申訴的對象一定是公部門嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對，因為這是政府採購……"],["林委員俊憲：政府採購法裡面……"],["陳副主任委員為祥：一定是一造廠商和一造機關。"],["林委員俊憲：如果你這樣公布，你剛說的最大的問題是什麼？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：如果是……"],["林委員俊憲：不只是個資啦，就是說這個你公布以後，諮詢委員會不會受到壓力？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這當然也是我們的考量之一。"],["林委員俊憲：對嘛，假設我是申訴人，我去找申訴委員，跟他說：「你幫我寫好聽一點」。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：申訴委員我們是有公開，諮詢的部分是沒有……"],["林委員俊憲：諮詢委員啦，說錯了。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：有點像是我們的專家資料庫……"],["林委員俊憲：諮詢委員在事先做預審工作的時候，會不會受到一些人情上或者是有一些壓力的問題？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們基本上是希望維持一個比較公正的環境讓委員去處理，所以我們會比較希望不要有外界太多的干擾。"],["林委員俊憲：我覺得這個一體兩面啦，就是說最後還是申訴委員會在決定嘛，諮詢委員等於做一些類似幕僚的工作。主席，我是覺得這個部分，我還是尊重主管機關的立場，如果事先公布會不會產生人情上，或者是一些壓力上的問題？因為申訴的廠商就會去找這些委員，看能不能幫忙，會不會有這種狀況？各有利弊，本席是建議尊重主管機關工程會的意見，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員。","請魯明哲召委。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝召委，針對這個提案，其實我個人的想法是申訴委員會在諮詢委員的部分，因為政府責任政治，你們對於每一個案子都要負責任，對不對？每一個結果也要負責任，關於諮詢委員我想知道的是，64位諮詢委員假設遇到了一個申訴案件，假設我選了3個，有3個委員作為這個案子的諮詢，譬如說機捷好了，對於這個案子的諮詢委員是一直不變，還是每一次會議會隨便從64個來挑？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：原則上派的諮委是同一個人。"],["魯委員明哲：對嘛，固定的嘛，所以針對是固定的這個部分，如果你說是隨機的，我覺得你公不公布感覺沒有差，可是這等於諮詢決策是大家共同負責的，現在問題情況是這樣，如果在大數裡面事前不列名，事後不署名，對於最後結果是誰出的意見，那搞不好會變成主要意見，如果說拜託不要寫我名字，前面64位也沒有人知道是哪一個案子，是你們自己派的嘛，假設後面也不用具名，我覺得把64位普遍地公布，在不涉個資的部分，因為我們是在問申訴委員會裡面的資料，並不是在問你魯明哲委員他什麼時候生的？存款多少？我有問這些嗎？你用個資法去講申訴委員會要不要公布他的名單，我建議可以討論，我只公布姓名，譬如說學經歷；對於個案，我建議完全不需要公布。他的壓力來自於這個案子找了某一位委員來，壓力當然會去找他嘛，那個就不對了。但是哪些人在我們國家做諮詢委員，那是一個榮譽吧，為什麼不能公布？我覺得要適度地去公布，但涉及個人個資、地址當然不要公布，這部分能不能部分來公布？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員的指教，我再說明一次，工程會的履約爭議是提出調解建議，這個調解建議要雙方都同意才有效、才成立，所以雙方都可以不接受，他是提出一個調解建議。過去因為案件太多，所以速度很慢，我們要補充人力也無從補起，包括員額、預算都沒有，所以我們才想現行的諮詢委員過來協助，這有點像是協助整理相關的調解建議內容、理由書的方式。諮詢委員本身除了這個工作之外，有些履約爭議的案件不必直接進入調解，不必直接申請調解，在之前可能是招標過程或者履約過程都可以來申請諮詢，而且那個諮詢就是好像顧問一樣，我跟你解釋，你們可以這樣做，至於要不要做，由雙方自己去做。今天的問題是，申訴委員依照法律規定公開，我們都已經公開了，關於諮詢委員，我想我們必須徵詢每個諮詢委員：你擔任諮詢委員的費用多少？是不是可以公開？如果每個諮詢委員同意，那當然我們就公開，如果他們不同意，我們無權替他們公開。"],["主席：請廖先翔委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝，請問一下，我覺得我們可以聚焦一點，因為大家沒有質疑諮詢委員存在的必要性，如果那對工程會的調解效率有幫助的話，我想剛剛都沒有提到要把它廢掉還是怎麼樣，最重要是討論資訊的公開。剛剛主委有提到，一個是諮詢委員，另外一個叫申訴委員，對於申訴委員，您說有法源依據可以公開，那請問一下，申訴委員公開名單的法源依據是什麼？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，我們的申訴會處理兩類案件，一個叫申訴，一個叫調解，申訴案件就相當於行政機關的訴願，訴願則依照訴願法，委員名單必須公開，因為他在決定書上面必須公開，所以我們當時在徵詢這些委員的時候就已經有請他提供要公開的資訊了，所以那部分我們有做到公開，是這樣來的。"],["廖委員先翔：你說依照訴願法，訴願的結果，訴願人的名字必須要在上面，所以他必須要公開？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對。"],["廖委員先翔：你有沒有參考過其他類似的機關？譬如說很多機關都會有一些委員會，譬如最近比較紅的就是都市計畫委員會等等，這些委員的名單也都是公開，是吧？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：都計委員會跟我們的申訴人比較像，我們的諮詢委員比較像是內部諮詢用的，他並不是去做決定。"],["廖委員先翔：如果以個資法的法律位階跟政府資訊公開法來講的話，政府資訊公開法的優先順序應該高於個資法吧？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，因為政府資訊公開法第十八條也必須符合這些條件，如果有這些條件也是不能公開，裡面第一款就講，如果其他法令有規定；或者在第六款有講到涉及到隱私的部分，所以又會回到個資法，就是涉及個人資訊的部分又回到個資法。"],["廖委員先翔：那這條法令不就白定了？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：也不能這樣講，他還是要從個案裡面去判斷，是透過解釋的方法去判斷。"],["廖委員先翔：我想這還是有公共利益，我想資訊該不該公開很大的部分就是牽扯到公共利益，如果牽扯到公共利益的話，很多政府的事情就必須要公開，因為我們必須要知道你們聘請的諮詢委員的專業度、經歷等等，這本來就應該是可受公評之事。換個立場想一想，當然工程會有工程會的立場，如果換一個角度，站在政府公開透明的角度想，你也希望公共工程委員會聘請的諮詢委員，或者你站在廠商的立場想，你也希望這些委員的學經歷或者是社會歷練是能夠信服大家的，這是公家機關的公信力，大家要去檢視啊，如果都不公開這一些的話，那該怎麼檢視？就像現在大家在審大法官、在審考試委員，就是要提供這些經歷，大家才會說適不適格嘛，你們聘請的委員適不適格，這經費花得值不值得就是現在立法院要來探討的。"],["主席：好，本席在這邊做一個建議，剛剛委員也都有詳細地詢問，公部門這邊也有做詳細的說明。有關公共工程委員會的申訴審議委員會所聘請的申訴會委員，包括幕僚單位的諮詢委員都是針對廠商爭議申訴跟調解的運作模式及行政程序，剛剛公共工程委員會也有說明，法令規定可以公開的部分，針對申訴委員，有照法律規定來公開；諮詢委員的部分，因為在聘請時並未徵得諮詢委員的同意，所以依個資法的規定就不便公開。因為行政部門在這個部分有表達困難之處，本席是不是建議這個臨時提案不予處理，好不好？"],["黃委員健豪：主席，這樣子啦，因為我提兩案嘛……"],["主席：對。"],["黃委員健豪：第二案，我剛剛提到的，因為涉及酬勞明細，又涉及到案件及私人廠商的問題，所以我認為第二案可以不予處理，我接受。但是第一案公開所謂的諮詢委員名單，誠如剛剛幾位委員講的，如果諮詢委員會有壓力，請問那個申訴委員不會有壓力嗎？依法定公開的那些委員也會有壓力啊！既然這些諮詢委員只是僅供諮詢，我認為公開並沒有違反個資，我認為這是責任政治的問題，諮詢委員應該要公開名單，當然你在聘用當下沒有跟他講說可能會被公開，那我們是不是修正為後續在聘用的時候要徵得他的同意，就是他要能夠同意自己被放上去公開名單裡面再聘用。我可以接受現在他被聘用時沒有說好會被公開，所以他同意來擔任諮詢委員……"],["主席：黃委員的建議是之後聘任的時候徵詢是否可公開，因為目前已經聘用的，依個資法是不便公開。"],["魯委員明哲：我建議一下，大概就修最後這邊，我們也希望工程會未來針對委員的提案，如果可以用修正的，能提一些修正方案啦！不要直接全部否決。保障人民知的權利，最後倒數第2行「工程會應於1個月以內徵詢現有的諮詢委員公開的意願」，然後予以公開嘛！你們也要徵詢一下，搞不好有些人講說我根本沒有問題，現在我們會認為64個都有問題，有時候明明人家就是很棒的，所以我是建議朝這個方向修正。你們1個月內去問要不要公開，要公開的就給他公開嘛！未來能夠持續走向直接徵詢、公開的這個方向，我覺得現在要開始朝向這個來做，如果他不願意，我們就尊重他的意願，是不是朝這個方向來修正？好不好？"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委的建議，算是一個折衷的方案啦！是不是我們……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們同意委員的修正。"],["主席：好，那我們就依據魯明哲召委剛剛的修正意見。"],["林委員俊憲：好，按照魯委員。"],["廖委員先翔：我確認一下。"],["主席：是不是文字上我們馬上修正？是不是請副主委把文字修改一下？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：1個月內徵詢……"],["廖委員先翔：我確認一下，你們現有的任期是多久？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：一年。"],["廖委員先翔：一年，所以也到年底了嘛？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，期限我再查一下。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！所以剛剛講的是包含這一屆，還是從下一屆開始？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：如果是委員的提案，下次我們在……"],["廖委員先翔：新的一期啦！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們在新聘的就會開始徵詢，形成一個固定的做法，是不是文字上可以容許修正為最後這一句話：「工程會應於1個月內徵詢申訴會諮詢委員意願，公開申訴會諮詢委員名單」？後面那一句話請求可以刪除。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["主席：在場委員沒有意見，我們就照工程會的修正意見通過。"],["廖委員先翔：之後每一期都會問嘛？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是，會。"],["主席：第1案照工程會的修正意見通過。","第2案是不是不予處理？黃委員。"],["黃委員健豪：撤案。"],["主席：第2案就不予處理。","臨時提案處理完畢，如有委員對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","現在請魯明哲召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}}