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\"end\": 558.826, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"揮\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 558.826, \"end\": 558.946, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 558.946, \"end\": 560.186, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 560.186, \"end\": 560.667, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 560.667, \"end\": 560.847, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 560.847, \"end\": 560.867, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 560.867, \"end\": 560.887, \"score\": 0.57}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,878 --> 00:00:01,843\n謝謝主席麻煩我們這個陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋\n\n2\n00:00:11,124 --> 00:00:40,031\n好主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬\n\n3\n00:00:40,951 --> 00:00:41,592\n告知公共工程委員會\n\n4\n00:00:58,406 --> 00:00:58,586\n關於國家通訊傳播監\n\n5\n00:01:23,951 --> 00:01:24,291\n主管通訊傳播監主辦機關\n\n6\n00:01:43,179 --> 00:02:05,207\n拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係\n\n7\n00:02:06,107 --> 00:02:22,331\n不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。\n\n8\n00:02:22,891 --> 00:02:50,646\n對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那\n\n9\n00:02:52,347 --> 00:03:06,684\n目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候\n\n10\n00:03:08,288 --> 00:03:09,768\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監\n\n11\n00:03:33,173 --> 00:03:33,774\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n12\n00:03:45,285 --> 00:04:06,294\n就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障\n\n13\n00:04:13,897 --> 00:04:20,159\n所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。\n\n14\n00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:54,952\n那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限\n\n15\n00:04:55,972 --> 00:05:17,248\n另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快\n\n16\n00:05:18,148 --> 00:05:28,795\n因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面\n\n17\n00:05:31,411 --> 00:05:49,767\n當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個\n\n18\n00:05:50,808 --> 00:06:06,499\n就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛\n\n19\n00:06:07,259 --> 00:06:30,720\n那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商\n\n20\n00:06:32,543 --> 00:06:49,151\n我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了\n\n21\n00:06:50,111 --> 00:07:12,524\n我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的\n\n22\n00:07:12,904 --> 00:07:37,949\n而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多\n\n23\n00:07:40,069 --> 00:08:06,292\n但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛\n\n24\n00:08:07,193 --> 00:08:21,811\n好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法\n\n25\n00:08:24,614 --> 00:08:52,109\n跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案\n\n26\n00:08:52,729 --> 00:09:20,887\n因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n878\t1843\t謝謝主席麻煩我們這個陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋\n11124\t40031\t好 主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬\n40951\t41592\t告知公共工程委員會\n58406\t58586\t關於國家通訊傳播監\n83951\t84291\t主管通訊傳播監主辦機關\n103179\t125207\t拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係\n126107\t142331\t不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。\n142891\t170646\t對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那\n172347\t186684\t目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候\n188288\t189768\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監\n213173\t213774\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n225285\t246294\t就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障\n253897\t260159\t所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。\n277560\t294952\t那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限\n295972\t317248\t另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快\n318148\t328795\t因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面\n331411\t349767\t當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個\n350808\t366499\t就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛\n367259\t390720\t那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商\n392543\t409151\t我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了\n410111\t432524\t我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的\n432904\t457949\t而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多\n460069\t486292\t但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛\n487193\t501811\t好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法\n504614\t532109\t跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案\n532729\t560887\t因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩我們這個陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋\n好 主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬\n告知公共工程委員會\n關於國家通訊傳播監\n主管通訊傳播監主辦機關\n拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係\n不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。\n對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那\n目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障\n所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。\n那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限\n另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快\n因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面\n當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個\n就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛\n那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商\n我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了\n我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的\n而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多\n但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛\n好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法\n跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案\n因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.878 --> 00:01.843\n謝謝主席麻煩我們這個陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋\n\n00:11.124 --> 00:40.031\n好主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬\n\n00:40.951 --> 00:41.592\n告知公共工程委員會\n\n00:58.406 --> 00:58.586\n關於國家通訊傳播監\n\n01:23.951 --> 01:24.291\n主管通訊傳播監主辦機關\n\n01:43.179 --> 02:05.207\n拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係\n\n02:06.107 --> 02:22.331\n不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。\n\n02:22.891 --> 02:50.646\n對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那\n\n02:52.347 --> 03:06.684\n目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候\n\n03:08.288 --> 03:09.768\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監\n\n03:33.173 --> 03:33.774\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n03:45.285 --> 04:06.294\n就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障\n\n04:13.897 --> 04:20.159\n所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。\n\n04:37.560 --> 04:54.952\n那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限\n\n04:55.972 --> 05:17.248\n另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快\n\n05:18.148 --> 05:28.795\n因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面\n\n05:31.411 --> 05:49.767\n當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個\n\n05:50.808 --> 06:06.499\n就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛\n\n06:07.259 --> 06:30.720\n那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商\n\n06:32.543 --> 06:49.151\n我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了\n\n06:50.111 --> 07:12.524\n我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的\n\n07:12.904 --> 07:37.949\n而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多\n\n07:40.069 --> 08:06.292\n但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛\n\n08:07.193 --> 08:21.811\n好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法\n\n08:24.614 --> 08:52.109\n跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案\n\n08:52.729 --> 09:20.887\n因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.878,"end":1.843,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩我們這個陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋"},{"start":11.124,"end":40.031,"text":"好 主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬"},{"start":40.951,"end":41.592,"text":"告知公共工程委員會"},{"start":58.406,"end":58.586,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":83.951,"end":84.291,"text":"主管通訊傳播監主辦機關"},{"start":103.179,"end":125.207,"text":"拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係"},{"start":126.107,"end":142.331,"text":"不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。"},{"start":142.891,"end":170.646,"text":"對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那"},{"start":172.347,"end":186.684,"text":"目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候"},{"start":188.288,"end":189.768,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":213.173,"end":213.774,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":225.285,"end":246.294,"text":"就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障"},{"start":253.897,"end":260.159,"text":"所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。"},{"start":277.56,"end":294.952,"text":"那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限"},{"start":295.972,"end":317.248,"text":"另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快"},{"start":318.148,"end":328.795,"text":"因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面"},{"start":331.411,"end":349.767,"text":"當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個"},{"start":350.808,"end":366.499,"text":"就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛"},{"start":367.259,"end":390.72,"text":"那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商"},{"start":392.543,"end":409.151,"text":"我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了"},{"start":410.111,"end":432.524,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的"},{"start":432.904,"end":457.949,"text":"而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多"},{"start":460.069,"end":486.292,"text":"但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛"},{"start":487.193,"end":501.811,"text":"好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法"},{"start":504.614,"end":532.109,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案"},{"start":532.729,"end":560.887,"text":"因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時36分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["廖委員先翔：主委好。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["廖委員先翔：我不只單指我們政府工程，其實整個臺灣工程界非常地亂，常常有包商倒來倒去，都是很常見的情況，包括工程完了不給錢、跑路等等的情況，所以在政府的公共工程裡面，我們當然一部分是希望品質要好，但是其實民眾對於政府的期待，也希望每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商都能夠得到它應有的報酬，這是民眾對我們公共工程的一個期待，不希望某個包商來幫政府做工程，結果它最後卻沒有拿到錢，這是我們不樂意見的情況。","在過去可能會有很多類似的情況，比如說大包中包還是哪個包，中間有一層跑路了等等的，導致最下游的廠商沒有拿到錢，這是過去常常有的一種情況，我知道工程會為了避免這樣的情況，我們有做一個監管契約的方式，對不對？下游廠商它真的有做事，我們希望它能夠拿到它應該拿到的錢，但是我們的監管契約在實務上好像也會遇到其他的問題，導致最下游應該要拿到錢的廠商拿不到錢，主委，你有發現怎樣的情況下廠商會拿不到錢嗎？就算有監管契約。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這個分成兩個層次，第一個是主辦機關拖延付款給主承包商，那主承包商不付款給下包商，我想政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題，這個承包商除非說在契約裡面是聯合承攬或其他明確的關係，否則這個承包商跟它的下包之間，應該是屬於民法的關係啦！不過我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如質，所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的反映，必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。"],["廖委員先翔：對，當然過去以來常常發生這樣子的事情，不只我們政府機關啦！誠如剛剛講的，為了避免小包拿不到錢，我們會有一個監管契約，當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商，因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑，這是比較少見的情況，所以有監管契約，有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商，直接把錢給下游的廠商，就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商，是這樣子的。","那目前又遇到了一個情況，因為這個監管契約畢竟它不是法律位階，它是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已，所以當法院有相關支付命令的時候，這個中間廠商，跑掉的那個廠商，有支付命令的一個法院來函的時候，其實上游廠商的法律位階是高於監管契約的，會導致下游廠商當初以為可能主辦機關出面了，工程會也出面說有一個監管契約，我們政府有保障，你不會因為中間的廠商跑掉導致你拿不到錢，因為它的簽約主體還是中間的中游廠商嘛！他不會因為中游廠商跑掉拿不到錢，我們以為事情就這樣單純啊！但是實際上包括我個人協調過的案件，中間中游跑掉的廠商，它因為被法院有支付命令在了，所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人去跟你們的契約廠商拿，當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛！對不對？你們只給廠商一次錢，廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊！它怎麼可能先把錢給下游廠商？那遇到這樣子的問題，我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共工程採購法，一樣用法律的位階來保障所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個承攬的、可能比較下游的廠商？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。因為整個工程的實務上面，分包是常態，而且有可能層層的分包，這是營建的實務，那每一個廠商跟分包商之間，以及在跟下包商之間，權利義務非常複雜，有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起，所以確實委員所講的沒有錯，我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限。當然另外一個比較有效的是它要設立權利質權，但是因為程序比較複雜，也比較不容易執行，所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制。不過監督付款的機制畢竟還是屬於債權讓與的性質，所以它就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快，因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令，所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告，是有困難。"],["廖委員先翔：我們有沒有辦法在法律上面……當然法律執行命令絕對是有一定的強度在。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：它優先，是。"],["廖委員先翔：但是它的優先順序，我們就常理來說，我來幫你做工程，結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了，這件事情就常理來看，就是很不合理嘛！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["廖委員先翔：支付命令一定有它在法律上的一個位階，它就是欠它錢，它一定要給它錢，這是沒有問題的，但是它的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款，或許它在承包報的過程中，它有什麼監督或者是一些其他的超額，一定會有利潤嘛！那它的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在這一家中游廠商的利潤而已，而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去，目前的問題是法律的位階就是如此，我希望公共工程委員會以後在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加地保障下游廠商，把監管契約相關的條約內容、監督付款的契約等等的，把它入法，入法之後，它應該在法律上面的求償有更高的權利，就不會被法院的支付命令給壓過去了。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是，我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看，但是確實也跟委員報告，如果說我們賦予它這麼強大的效率的話，對機關來講會非常困擾，因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟它承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於這個工程所產生的，而且他們有可能是長期合作，他們長期下來可能累積很多債權債務，要叫機關負責去查明，我覺得可能機關……"],["廖委員先翔：你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦！驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢，這是清清楚楚的啊！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是，我們會往這個方向來研議看看啦！但是我們確實……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我提的方法不一定是最好的，我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過、遇到的還多，到目前為止，我們有走了一步，我不知道這個監督付款機制是多久以前推出來的，至少我們有看到問題了，但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題，或許有的廠商很惡劣，它知道支付命令的法律位階更高，它就故意給你卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊！就故意來騙你啊！騙你下游廠商啊！那我們遇到問題就是要解決嘛！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好不好？那你們，沒關係，不管是我提的方法，或者是你們認為怎麼做可以更好，我當然都尊重，能夠解決問題最重要，你們是不是能夠在多少時間以內，研究未來可能可以改善上述問題的一些解決方法？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見，包括剛才委員所提示的，當然我們會納入整個評估，我們等各界意見都收集好了之後，會內部作討論，就相關政府採購法裡面現有的、不足以保證採購程序的，我們都要一併來處理，好不好？"],["廖委員先翔：那你們有沒有預計……"],["陳主任委員金德：至於時間，我們沒有辦法現在就說多久提出一個方案，因為畢竟修法必須考慮到周詳，而且要預告……"],["廖委員先翔：那你們有沒有目標哪時候要送行政院？"],["陳主任委員金德：而且還要預告，然後各界意見，修好了之後再送行政院。"],["廖委員先翔：對，你們目標哪時候送行政院，送來交委會？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前，會送行政院來……"],["廖委員先翔：明年嘛！好不好？當你們內部有一些共識的時候，我希望來做一些提前的討論。"],["陳主任委員金德：OK，到時候也請委員支持。"],["廖委員先翔：好不好？再麻煩，好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","接下邀請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}}