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\"end\": 544.715, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,732 --> 00:00:04,332\n請工程會陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,921\n採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解裁判者\n\n3\n00:00:33,915 --> 00:00:45,928\n是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委\n\n4\n00:00:49,392 --> 00:00:57,016\n法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判\n\n5\n00:01:15,985 --> 00:01:27,431\n像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者\n\n6\n00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,360\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n\n7\n00:01:53,211 --> 00:02:14,843\n第二個呢,如果有該迴避的...你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎?我想請副主委跟你回答。不要,我要負責你,不要副主委。我也跟你報告得很清楚,他是一個調解,他並不是裁判。你剛剛講說他有利益迴避,利益迴避的義務,但我問你,孔梵琦委員,這樣子說好了啦齁。\n\n8\n00:02:20,615 --> 00:02:35,977\n有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知你們的恐委員\n\n9\n00:02:37,299 --> 00:02:57,694\n就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大\n\n10\n00:03:05,419 --> 00:03:26,865\n那我再講,你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說我出去外面我是申訴委員,我出去督攬生意,我若沒有蓋恐犯罪,同樣我就說的?\n\n11\n00:03:30,086 --> 00:03:51,864\n是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天在講恐委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點\n\n12\n00:03:58,952 --> 00:04:11,903\n關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員不公平。孔委員我沒有講他我講制度你既是球員又是裁判你既是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞\n\n13\n00:04:14,585 --> 00:04:36,861\n外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件\n\n14\n00:04:41,804 --> 00:04:55,634\n三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是聘他為之這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題\n\n15\n00:05:03,168 --> 00:05:03,308\n主席\n\n16\n00:05:24,224 --> 00:05:29,589\n他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的\n\n17\n00:05:49,907 --> 00:05:55,351\n增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:19,827 --> 00:06:20,391\n為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責\n\n19\n00:06:23,618 --> 00:06:36,443\n你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一\n\n20\n00:07:16,087 --> 00:07:32,214\n不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話\n\n21\n00:07:34,225 --> 00:07:45,838\n為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:59,948 --> 00:08:17,278\n諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受\n\n23\n00:08:29,008 --> 00:08:39,357\n不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看\n\n24\n00:08:58,587 --> 00:09:04,715\n主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3732\t4332\t請工程會陳主委\n14880\t16921\t採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解裁判者\n33915\t45928\t是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委\n49392\t57016\t法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判\n75985\t87431\t像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者\n88319\t90360\t委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n113211\t134843\t第二個呢,如果有該迴避的...你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎?我想請副主委跟你回答。不要,我要負責你,不要副主委。我也跟你報告得很清楚,他是一個調解,他並不是裁判。你剛剛講說他有利益迴避,利益迴避的義務,但我問你,孔梵琦委員,這樣子說好了啦齁。\n140615\t155977\t有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知你們的恐委員\n157299\t177694\t就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大\n185419\t206865\t那我再講,你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說我出去外面我是申訴委員,我出去督攬生意,我若沒有蓋恐犯罪,同樣我就說的?\n210086\t231864\t是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天在講恐委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點\n238952\t251903\t關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員不公平。孔委員我沒有講他我講制度你既是球員又是裁判你既是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞\n254585\t276861\t外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件\n281804\t295634\t三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是聘他為之這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題\n303168\t303308\t主席\n324224\t329589\t他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的\n349907\t355351\t增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?\n379827\t380391\t為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責\n383618\t396443\t你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一\n412329\t435947\t議員議員議員議員議員議員\n436087\t452214\t不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話\n454225\t465838\t為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?\n479948\t497278\t諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受\n509008\t519357\t不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看\n538587\t544715\t主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討\n","txt":"請工程會陳主委\n採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解裁判者\n是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委\n法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判\n像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n第二個呢,如果有該迴避的...你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎?我想請副主委跟你回答。不要,我要負責你,不要副主委。我也跟你報告得很清楚,他是一個調解,他並不是裁判。你剛剛講說他有利益迴避,利益迴避的義務,但我問你,孔梵琦委員,這樣子說好了啦齁。\n有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知你們的恐委員\n就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大\n那我再講,你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說我出去外面我是申訴委員,我出去督攬生意,我若沒有蓋恐犯罪,同樣我就說的?\n是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天在講恐委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點\n關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員不公平。孔委員我沒有講他我講制度你既是球員又是裁判你既是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞\n外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件\n三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是聘他為之這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題\n主席\n他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的\n增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?\n為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責\n你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一\n議員議員議員議員議員議員\n不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話\n為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?\n諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受\n不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看\n主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.732 --> 00:04.332\n請工程會陳主委\n\n00:14.880 --> 00:16.921\n採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解裁判者\n\n00:33.915 --> 00:45.928\n是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委\n\n00:49.392 --> 00:57.016\n法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判\n\n01:15.985 --> 01:27.431\n像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者\n\n01:28.319 --> 01:30.360\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n\n01:53.211 --> 02:14.843\n第二個呢,如果有該迴避的...你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎?我想請副主委跟你回答。不要,我要負責你,不要副主委。我也跟你報告得很清楚,他是一個調解,他並不是裁判。你剛剛講說他有利益迴避,利益迴避的義務,但我問你,孔梵琦委員,這樣子說好了啦齁。\n\n02:20.615 --> 02:35.977\n有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知你們的恐委員\n\n02:37.299 --> 02:57.694\n就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大\n\n03:05.419 --> 03:26.865\n那我再講,你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說我出去外面我是申訴委員,我出去督攬生意,我若沒有蓋恐犯罪,同樣我就說的?\n\n03:30.086 --> 03:51.864\n是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天在講恐委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點\n\n03:58.952 --> 04:11.903\n關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員不公平。孔委員我沒有講他我講制度你既是球員又是裁判你既是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞\n\n04:14.585 --> 04:36.861\n外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件\n\n04:41.804 --> 04:55.634\n三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是聘他為之這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題\n\n05:03.168 --> 05:03.308\n主席\n\n05:24.224 --> 05:29.589\n他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的\n\n05:49.907 --> 05:55.351\n增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?\n\n06:19.827 --> 06:20.391\n為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責\n\n06:23.618 --> 06:36.443\n你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一\n\n07:16.087 --> 07:32.214\n不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話\n\n07:34.225 --> 07:45.838\n為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?\n\n07:59.948 --> 08:17.278\n諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受\n\n08:29.008 --> 08:39.357\n不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看\n\n08:58.587 --> 09:04.715\n主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.732,"end":4.332,"text":"請工程會陳主委"},{"start":14.88,"end":16.921,"text":"採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭域時的調解裁判者"},{"start":33.915,"end":45.928,"text":"是涉到政府的錢是人民納稅的血和錢跟廠商的利益是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭等於是這樣的位置請問主委"},{"start":49.392,"end":57.016,"text":"法院審理的時候法庭在開庭的時候你覺得一個負責審判的法官一下子扮演業者的代理人律師的角色一下子站在業者的利益這一邊然後呢一下子又變成法官然後又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色然後還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判"},{"start":75.985,"end":87.431,"text":"像這樣子又是法官又是律師然後負責開庭你可以接受嗎?根委員報告應該不是裁判者他是調解建議的提出者"},{"start":88.319,"end":90.36,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":113.211,"end":134.843,"text":"第二個呢,如果有該迴避的...你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎?我想請副主委跟你回答。不要,我要負責你,不要副主委。我也跟你報告得很清楚,他是一個調解,他並不是裁判。你剛剛講說他有利益迴避,利益迴避的義務,但我問你,孔梵琦委員,這樣子說好了啦齁。"},{"start":140.615,"end":155.977,"text":"有很多律師職業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件恐律師這三年代理了三十幾件這一年超過十件由此可知你們的恐委員"},{"start":157.299,"end":177.694,"text":"就是專門打這一種官司你騙他當委員他可以獲得多大的好處然後你說他會利益迴避你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會然後他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力每次開會都要見面了壓力很大其他委員更不要講你們行政部門業務的承辦人沒有壓力嗎壓力很大"},{"start":185.419,"end":206.865,"text":"那我再講,你這樣子騙他當申訴委員,你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎?其他不接這種案子的申訴委員,他們是傻瓜嗎?難道他們不會想說我出去外面我是申訴委員,我出去督攬生意,我若沒有蓋恐犯罪,同樣我就說的?"},{"start":210.086,"end":231.864,"text":"是你鼓勵其他申訴委員大家一起來打這工程會委員的名號直接去工程界招攬生意這樣子你可以接受嗎只要做到表面上的利益迴避你就可以接受了嗎我今天在講恐委員專門打這種官司然後成為申訴委員這個是不關尊敗壞的起點"},{"start":238.952,"end":251.903,"text":"關爭敗壞的起點。委員這樣指責太對孔委員不公平對工程委員不公平。孔委員我沒有講他我講制度你既是球員又是裁判你既是業者的律師又是法官這個就是關爭敗壞"},{"start":254.585,"end":276.861,"text":"外外的羞辱到的是你我不是在講孔律師我講的是你他有多少代理多少政府案件不管他自己就是工程爭議的這一些案件的代理人你不要講說他幫政府打多少官司他現在幫有工程爭議到你們委員到你們工程會來申訴的案件"},{"start":281.804,"end":295.634,"text":"三年三十幾件今年十幾件而這不是一般律師勒他是專門辦這種案件的律師所以有問題的是你不是孔律師是聘他為之這個申訴委員的陳主委你有問題我沒有問題"},{"start":303.168,"end":303.308,"text":"主席"},{"start":324.224,"end":329.589,"text":"他這樣子我在講話他這樣干擾我我有叫他回答嗎?審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料透過資訊不對等可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊很容易相信業者就會相信說欸這個委員這個律師真的假無告然這樣是誰的損失?調解每一個案子都要政府物價調整的"},{"start":349.907,"end":355.351,"text":"增加預算的都是民脂民膏你主委讓這種有業者的代理人專門打業者代理人來當審議委員扛人民之愷賺更多政府的錢這樣子你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":379.827,"end":380.391,"text":"為什麼要公開他的姓名是為了民主的問責"},{"start":383.618,"end":396.443,"text":"你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一"},{"start":412.329,"end":435.947,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":436.087,"end":452.214,"text":"不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話"},{"start":454.225,"end":465.838,"text":"為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?"},{"start":479.948,"end":497.278,"text":"諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受"},{"start":509.008,"end":519.357,"text":"不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看"},{"start":538.587,"end":544.715,"text":"主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時57分）謝謝主席，是不是請工程會？"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員淑芬：主委好。因為今天也有其他委員提到，當然這是黃揚明先生提出的問題，所以我今天很難得必須要來就教於你，第一個，採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭議時的調解裁判者，事涉到政府的錢，是人民納稅的血汗錢跟廠商的利益，是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭，等於是這樣的位置，請問主委，法院審理的時候，法庭在開庭的時候，你覺得一個負責審判的法官，一下子扮演業者的代理人，律師的角色，一下子站在業者的利益這一邊，然後一下子又變成法官，又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色，還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判，像這樣子又是法官又是律師，然後負責開庭，你可以接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，應該不是裁判者，他是調解建議的提出者，他提出的是調解建議。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要在裁判者這個角色上，名詞上再來打轉。"],["陳主任委員金德：事實上他沒有裁判的功能。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你的是，一下子是業者的代理人，一下子是調解者、裁判者，寫結案書類，負責審查的仲裁角色，這兩個角色沒有衝突嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，他的本質就是調解建議的提出者。第二個，如果有該迴避的，有相關迴避……"],["林委員淑芬：你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你回答。"],["林委員淑芬：不要，不要副主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：我也跟你報告得很清楚，他是一個調解，他並不是裁判，跟法院的……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講說他有利益迴避的義務，但我問你，孔繁琦委員，這樣子說好了啦！有很多律師執業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件，孔律師這3年代理了三十幾件，這一年超過10件，由此可知，你們的孔委員就是專門打這一種官司，你聘他當委員，他可以獲得多大的好處？然後你說他利益迴避，你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會，他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力？每次開會都要見面，壓力很大，其他委員。更不要講你們的行政部門業務承辦人，沒有壓力嗎？壓力很大！我再講，你這樣子聘他當申訴委員，你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎？其他不接這種案子的申訴委員，他們是傻瓜嗎？難道他們不會想說我是申訴委員，我出去外面招攬生意，我如果不跟孔繁琦一樣，我就是傻瓜！是你鼓勵其他申訴委員，大家一起來，打著工程會委員的名號，直接去工程界招攬生意，這樣子你可以接受嗎？只要做到表面上的利益迴避，你就可以接受了嗎？我今天再講，孔委員專門打這種官司，然後成為申訴委員，這個是官箴敗壞的起點！官箴敗壞的起點！"],["陳主任委員金德：委員，這樣指責對孔委員不公平，對工程會也不公平。"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有講孔委員，我講制度，既是球員又是裁判，既是業者的律師又是法官，這個就是官箴敗壞，敗壞羞辱到的是你！"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師代表政府有二百多件……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講孔律師，我講的是你……"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師代表有二百多件……"],["林委員淑芬：他代理多少政府案件不管，他自己就是工程爭議這些案件的代理人，你不要講他幫政府打多少官司，他現在幫有工程爭議到你們工程會來申訴的案件，三年三十幾件，今年十幾件，這不是一般律師欸！他是專門辦這種案件的律師，所以有問題的是你，不是孔律師！"],["陳主任委員金德：我不接受委員這種指責。"],["林委員淑芬：是聘他為申訴委員的陳主委你有問題！"],["陳主任委員金德：我沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：最好是啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這樣講對孔委員實在是不公平。"],["林委員淑芬：我講的是你……"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：不是孔委員。"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：陳副主委，你還笑得出來……"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：你也是這樣講嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們相當沒有問題！"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我再講，你這麼厚顏無恥，我也沒辦法。"],["陳主任委員金德：厚顏無恥，我不接受！"],["林委員淑芬：工程會的審議委員有內部會議的第一手資料……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們無法接受厚顏無恥的指控。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我在講話，他這樣干擾我，我有叫他回答嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我不接受這種厚顏無恥的指控。"],["林委員淑芬：審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料，透過資訊不對等，可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊……"],["陳主任委員金德：這種指控也不合理。"],["林委員淑芬：業者就會相信這個委員、這個律師真的有夠力！這樣是誰的損失？每一個案子都要政府物價調整的，增加預算的都是民脂民膏，你主委讓這種有業者的代理人，專門打業者代理人來當審議委員，慷人民之慨，賺更多政府的錢，這樣子你可以接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是事實，也是毫無根據的指控！"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼時間到了？我還有。"],["主席：你的質詢時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：剛才國民黨的立委連質詢都不會，我跟他說，我聽不下去，為什麼要公開他的姓名，是為了民主的問責，你的諮詢委員要參加預審，可是參加預審之後領的不是出席費、不是車馬費而已，你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類，結果你們的諮詢委員預審了，然後不用寫結案書類，你們對於申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數，給委員依諮詢委員0.6的比例核給，所以要被公開名字、要寫結案書類，這種申訴委員最高上限領3萬，可以參加預審，然後不用寫結案書類，還可以領0.6比例，一個案件領2萬的諮詢委員，不是車馬費、不是出席費……"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了，超過了。"],["林委員淑芬：是結案書類的錢他也可以領，又可以預審，很爽喔！不用被公開姓名、不用被問責，這個才是民主問責的笑話！為什麼要公開？如果只有諮詢、只有出席、只有車馬費，我認為可以不用公開，但是他不是，他可以預審，還可以領審查書類，他不用寫之外還可以分錢，這樣不用公開？不用公開，這個不是笑話嗎？諮詢委員……"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：我最後一句！諮詢委員，你說不能公開，有人情壓力，真正在審案子要寫結案書類，真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人情壓力嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是法律規定的，不是人情壓力。"],["林委員淑芬：他的人情壓力更大！你不要在這裡胡說八道。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是法律規定的。"],["林委員淑芬：扭曲個資法……"],["主席：時間到了，請尊重其他委員質詢的時間跟權利，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：不要舉著個資法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益遮羞。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個完全是……"],["主席：時間到了，請陳主委回座，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：到底你能不能接受，不是你個人說了算！"],["主席：好，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，你這樣子幹嘛呢？"],["主席：你已經超過一倍的時間啦！你要尊重本委員會。"],["林委員淑芬：我超過一倍的時間，這個事情難道不該被討論嗎？"],["主席：我們剛剛有……"],["林委員淑芬：主席護航不用護航成這個樣子。"],["主席：我不是在護航。"],["林委員淑芬：是啦！你就是在護航啦！"],["主席：請尊重其他委員的質詢權利。"],["林委員淑芬：我也不想講了啦！我跟你講，整個申訴委員跟諮詢委員這件事情，孔繁琦委員……你看，主席沒有說，他就……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：你就是不敢面對啦！"],["主席：今天針對委員的質詢，請工程會於會後再審慎地進行檢討，謝謝。","接下來邀請蔡其昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}}