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00:00:28,108\n謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,也許上一次資訊的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同\n\n2\n00:00:29,318 --> 00:00:50,309\n只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?\n\n3\n00:00:54,159 --> 00:01:22,644\n這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼\n\n4\n00:01:23,479 --> 00:01:46,248\n就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延?\n\n5\n00:01:53,583 --> 00:02:11,056\n因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了\n\n6\n00:02:12,123 --> 00:02:28,700\n這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元\n\n7\n00:02:30,402 --> 00:02:45,994\n那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們\n\n8\n00:02:47,675 --> 00:02:48,616\n現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了\n\n9\n00:03:17,321 --> 00:03:46,121\n所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的這個高科技的這個產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前\n\n10\n00:03:47,301 --> 00:04:00,453\n我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做\n\n11\n00:04:02,799 --> 00:04:31,595\n這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後\n\n12\n00:04:32,768 --> 00:04:52,301\n會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的\n\n13\n00:04:53,621 --> 00:04:53,641\n韓國瑜\n\n14\n00:05:14,723 --> 00:05:34,931\n錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來\n\n15\n00:05:38,032 --> 00:05:57,135\n我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題\n\n16\n00:05:59,775 --> 00:06:09,761\n我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會\n\n17\n00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:13,200\n所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:41,160 --> 00:07:08,657\n這個部分我請同仁來說明一下我覺得同仁不要迴避我覺得這個問題就是我們面對到中美洲這個銀行我們希望藉由他能夠對我們的邦交國實質上能夠支持但是監督包括透明化委員的邀請公布資料另外以及我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力我簡單這樣講你把前面十大\n\n19\n00:07:09,813 --> 00:07:29,629\n前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大持股的國家囉\n\n20\n00:07:31,544 --> 00:07:31,564\n黃國昌\n\n21\n00:07:53,464 --> 00:08:19,810\n我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷\n\n22\n00:08:21,226 --> 00:08:42,397\n走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢\n\n23\n00:08:44,268 --> 00:09:07,433\n對,我跟委員報告齁,因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦,所以榮邦計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦,你說經濟外交齁,我這樣說,你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育\n\n24\n00:09:08,533 --> 00:09:19,583\n那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育\n\n25\n00:09:21,109 --> 00:09:41,352\n父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款\n\n26\n00:09:42,967 --> 00:10:02,831\n我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦\n\n27\n00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:19,936\n在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化\n\n28\n00:10:20,436 --> 00:10:23,997\n這件事已經實踐了十幾二十年了實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎\n\n29\n00:10:43,079 --> 00:11:06,047\n實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎?你如果今天是一個新的國際組織,我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嗎?但是關於卡貝來講,過去這10年,看得還不夠清楚嗎?錢不斷的丟,邦交國不斷的斷。所以我才想要理解,這到底是一個什麼樣的思維,要去做這樣子的事情?要投入多少錢?部長?\n\n30\n00:11:07,043 --> 00:11:24,770\n各位說明齁,如果中共透過這個進來齁,對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊。但我不是消極啊,去顧邦,我希望容邦嘛。所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、經濟外交……我先停一下齁,沒有沒有沒有,剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情,這個就要討論清楚。\n\n31\n00:11:26,471 --> 00:11:27,492\n現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?\n\n32\n00:11:45,321 --> 00:12:00,669\n我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中\n\n33\n00:12:01,621 --> 00:12:21,278\n所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我雖然能夠心力我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦\n\n34\n00:12:24,653 --> 00:12:42,686\n我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦\n\n35\n00:12:43,146 --> 00:13:08,941\n沒關係啦反正等到最後啦到下一個階段實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號下引號的投資到底值得或不值得希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由讓我們立法委員在通過這種錢的時候可以跟國民交代應該的我們來努力\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1043\t28108\t謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,也許上一次資訊的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同\n29318\t50309\t只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?\n54159\t82644\t這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼\n83479\t106248\t就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延?\n113583\t131056\t因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了\n132123\t148700\t這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元\n150402\t165994\t那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們\n167675\t168616\t現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了\n197321\t226121\t所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的這個高科技的這個產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前\n227301\t240453\t我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做\n242799\t271595\t這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後\n272768\t292301\t會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的\n293621\t293641\t韓國瑜\n314723\t334931\t錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來\n338032\t357135\t我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題\n359775\t369761\t我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會\n371940\t373200\t所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎?\n401160\t428657\t這個部分我請同仁來說明一下我覺得同仁不要迴避我覺得這個問題就是我們面對到中美洲這個銀行我們希望藉由他能夠對我們的邦交國實質上能夠支持但是監督包括透明化委員的邀請公布資料另外以及我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力我簡單這樣講你把前面十大\n429813\t449629\t前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大持股的國家囉\n451544\t451564\t黃國昌\n473464\t499810\t我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷\n501226\t522397\t走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢\n524268\t547433\t對,我跟委員報告齁,因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦,所以榮邦計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦,你說經濟外交齁,我這樣說,你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育\n548533\t559583\t那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育\n561109\t581352\t父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款\n582967\t602831\t我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦\n605820\t619936\t在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化\n620436\t623997\t這件事已經實踐了十幾二十年了實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎\n643079\t666047\t實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎?你如果今天是一個新的國際組織,我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嗎?但是關於卡貝來講,過去這10年,看得還不夠清楚嗎?錢不斷的丟,邦交國不斷的斷。所以我才想要理解,這到底是一個什麼樣的思維,要去做這樣子的事情?要投入多少錢?部長?\n667043\t684770\t各位說明齁,如果中共透過這個進來齁,對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊。但我不是消極啊,去顧邦,我希望容邦嘛。所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、經濟外交……我先停一下齁,沒有沒有沒有,剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情,這個就要討論清楚。\n686471\t687492\t現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?\n705321\t720669\t我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中\n721621\t741278\t所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我雖然能夠心力我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦\n744653\t762686\t我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦\n763146\t788941\t沒關係啦反正等到最後啦到下一個階段實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號下引號的投資到底值得或不值得希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由讓我們立法委員在通過這種錢的時候可以跟國民交代應該的我們來努力\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,也許上一次資訊的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同\n只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?\n這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼\n就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延?\n因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了\n這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元\n那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們\n現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了\n所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的這個高科技的這個產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前\n我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做\n這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後\n會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的\n韓國瑜\n錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來\n我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題\n我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會\n所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎?\n這個部分我請同仁來說明一下我覺得同仁不要迴避我覺得這個問題就是我們面對到中美洲這個銀行我們希望藉由他能夠對我們的邦交國實質上能夠支持但是監督包括透明化委員的邀請公布資料另外以及我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力我簡單這樣講你把前面十大\n前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大持股的國家囉\n黃國昌\n我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷\n走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢\n對,我跟委員報告齁,因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦,所以榮邦計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦,你說經濟外交齁,我這樣說,你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育\n那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育\n父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款\n我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦\n在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化\n這件事已經實踐了十幾二十年了實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎\n實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎?你如果今天是一個新的國際組織,我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嗎?但是關於卡貝來講,過去這10年,看得還不夠清楚嗎?錢不斷的丟,邦交國不斷的斷。所以我才想要理解,這到底是一個什麼樣的思維,要去做這樣子的事情?要投入多少錢?部長?\n各位說明齁,如果中共透過這個進來齁,對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊。但我不是消極啊,去顧邦,我希望容邦嘛。所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、經濟外交……我先停一下齁,沒有沒有沒有,剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情,這個就要討論清楚。\n現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?\n我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中\n所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我雖然能夠心力我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦\n我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦\n沒關係啦反正等到最後啦到下一個階段實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號下引號的投資到底值得或不值得希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由讓我們立法委員在通過這種錢的時候可以跟國民交代應該的我們來努力\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.043 --> 00:28.108\n謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,也許上一次資訊的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同\n\n00:29.318 --> 00:50.309\n只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?\n\n00:54.159 --> 01:22.644\n這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼\n\n01:23.479 --> 01:46.248\n就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延?\n\n01:53.583 --> 02:11.056\n因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了\n\n02:12.123 --> 02:28.700\n這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元\n\n02:30.402 --> 02:45.994\n那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們\n\n02:47.675 --> 02:48.616\n現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了\n\n03:17.321 --> 03:46.121\n所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的這個高科技的這個產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前\n\n03:47.301 --> 04:00.453\n我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做\n\n04:02.799 --> 04:31.595\n這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後\n\n04:32.768 --> 04:52.301\n會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的\n\n04:53.621 --> 04:53.641\n韓國瑜\n\n05:14.723 --> 05:34.931\n錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來\n\n05:38.032 --> 05:57.135\n我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題\n\n05:59.775 --> 06:09.761\n我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會\n\n06:11.940 --> 06:13.200\n所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎?\n\n06:41.160 --> 07:08.657\n這個部分我請同仁來說明一下我覺得同仁不要迴避我覺得這個問題就是我們面對到中美洲這個銀行我們希望藉由他能夠對我們的邦交國實質上能夠支持但是監督包括透明化委員的邀請公布資料另外以及我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力我簡單這樣講你把前面十大\n\n07:09.813 --> 07:29.629\n前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大持股的國家囉\n\n07:31.544 --> 07:31.564\n黃國昌\n\n07:53.464 --> 08:19.810\n我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷\n\n08:21.226 --> 08:42.397\n走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢\n\n08:44.268 --> 09:07.433\n對,我跟委員報告齁,因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦,所以榮邦計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦,你說經濟外交齁,我這樣說,你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育\n\n09:08.533 --> 09:19.583\n那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育\n\n09:21.109 --> 09:41.352\n父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款\n\n09:42.967 --> 10:02.831\n我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦\n\n10:05.820 --> 10:19.936\n在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化\n\n10:20.436 --> 10:23.997\n這件事已經實踐了十幾二十年了實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎\n\n10:43.079 --> 11:06.047\n實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎?你如果今天是一個新的國際組織,我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嗎?但是關於卡貝來講,過去這10年,看得還不夠清楚嗎?錢不斷的丟,邦交國不斷的斷。所以我才想要理解,這到底是一個什麼樣的思維,要去做這樣子的事情?要投入多少錢?部長?\n\n11:07.043 --> 11:24.770\n各位說明齁,如果中共透過這個進來齁,對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊。但我不是消極啊,去顧邦,我希望容邦嘛。所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、經濟外交……我先停一下齁,沒有沒有沒有,剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情,這個就要討論清楚。\n\n11:26.471 --> 11:27.492\n現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?\n\n11:45.321 --> 12:00.669\n我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中\n\n12:01.621 --> 12:21.278\n所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我雖然能夠心力我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦\n\n12:24.653 --> 12:42.686\n我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦\n\n12:43.146 --> 13:08.941\n沒關係啦反正等到最後啦到下一個階段實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號下引號的投資到底值得或不值得希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由讓我們立法委員在通過這種錢的時候可以跟國民交代應該的我們來努力\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.043,"end":28.108,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,也許上一次資訊的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同"},{"start":29.318,"end":50.309,"text":"只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?"},{"start":54.159,"end":82.644,"text":"這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼"},{"start":83.479,"end":106.248,"text":"就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延?"},{"start":113.583,"end":131.056,"text":"因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了"},{"start":132.123,"end":148.7,"text":"這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元"},{"start":150.402,"end":165.994,"text":"那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們"},{"start":167.675,"end":168.616,"text":"現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了"},{"start":197.321,"end":226.121,"text":"所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的這個高科技的這個產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前"},{"start":227.301,"end":240.453,"text":"我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做"},{"start":242.799,"end":271.595,"text":"這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後"},{"start":272.768,"end":292.301,"text":"會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的"},{"start":293.621,"end":293.641,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":314.723,"end":334.931,"text":"錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來"},{"start":338.032,"end":357.135,"text":"我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題"},{"start":359.775,"end":369.761,"text":"我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會"},{"start":371.94,"end":373.2,"text":"所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎?"},{"start":401.16,"end":428.657,"text":"這個部分我請同仁來說明一下我覺得同仁不要迴避我覺得這個問題就是我們面對到中美洲這個銀行我們希望藉由他能夠對我們的邦交國實質上能夠支持但是監督包括透明化委員的邀請公布資料另外以及我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力我簡單這樣講你把前面十大"},{"start":429.813,"end":449.629,"text":"前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大持股的國家囉"},{"start":451.544,"end":451.564,"text":"黃國昌"},{"start":473.464,"end":499.81,"text":"我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷"},{"start":501.226,"end":522.397,"text":"走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢"},{"start":524.268,"end":547.433,"text":"對,我跟委員報告齁,因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦,所以榮邦計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦,你說經濟外交齁,我這樣說,你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育"},{"start":548.533,"end":559.583,"text":"那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育"},{"start":561.109,"end":581.352,"text":"父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款"},{"start":582.967,"end":602.831,"text":"我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦"},{"start":605.82,"end":619.936,"text":"在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化"},{"start":620.436,"end":623.997,"text":"這件事已經實踐了十幾二十年了實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎"},{"start":643.079,"end":666.047,"text":"實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎?你如果今天是一個新的國際組織,我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嗎?但是關於卡貝來講,過去這10年,看得還不夠清楚嗎?錢不斷的丟,邦交國不斷的斷。所以我才想要理解,這到底是一個什麼樣的思維,要去做這樣子的事情?要投入多少錢?部長?"},{"start":667.043,"end":684.77,"text":"各位說明齁,如果中共透過這個進來齁,對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊。但我不是消極啊,去顧邦,我希望容邦嘛。所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、經濟外交……我先停一下齁,沒有沒有沒有,剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情,這個就要討論清楚。"},{"start":686.471,"end":687.492,"text":"現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?"},{"start":705.321,"end":720.669,"text":"我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中"},{"start":721.621,"end":741.278,"text":"所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我雖然能夠心力我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦"},{"start":744.653,"end":762.686,"text":"我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦"},{"start":763.146,"end":788.941,"text":"沒關係啦反正等到最後啦到下一個階段實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號下引號的投資到底值得或不值得希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由讓我們立法委員在通過這種錢的時候可以跟國民交代應該的我們來努力"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時10分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：延續上一次質詢的主題，就是對於外交部要推動價值外交，而不是金錢外交，這樣子的一個基本立場，我是非常認同的，只不過是說所謂的價值外交，而不是金錢外交，有沒有落實在具體的實踐上，這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候，必須要進一步去深究的。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：在2022年，外交部補助了立陶宛，說要補助他們發展半導體，補助了1,000萬歐元，沒有錯吧？"],["林部長佳龍：這個不是補助，這應該是共同來設立4吋到8吋的晶圓廠，這是很前期的作業。"],["黃委員國昌：是。那1,000萬丟下去了沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：有1,000萬，但是現在還在執行中。"],["黃委員國昌：那個錢交給誰？"],["林部長佳龍：工研院。"],["黃委員國昌：交給工研院？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：然後由工研院做什麼事情？目標是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：技術協助。"],["黃委員國昌：技術協助要做什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：就是要發展8吋為主的晶圓廠。"],["黃委員國昌：那立陶宛現在還有要做半導體產業嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。現在因為他們自己內部的一些問題，最近引發媒體的報導，現在就是他們的時程會往後延，會以2032年作為發展8吋晶圓廠的目標。"],["黃委員國昌：誰告訴你他們要繼續發展，只是時程會往後延？因為這個跟我從立陶宛那一邊所得到的訊息不太一致，所以我一定要跟你求證一下。剛剛你所講的這個事情，不僅僅是高科技園區的開發中止，還包括了這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司，他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛發展半導體產業，要移往其他國家了。在這樣的情況之下，我關心的事情是，我們當初丟下去1,000萬歐元，那現在這個計畫在立陶宛的狀況到底是怎麼樣呢？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，是這樣子，現在因為在政府交接期間，Teltonica出來講之後，現在要卸任的政府也表達說，他們會針對它關心的問題妥善解決，新政府要上任，也會計劃讓Teltonica這個計畫能夠繼續發展，所以他們的創辦人對媒體講他對於園區的開發有意見之後，他們前後任的政府也是很積極地來回應他，所以現在的情況是他又要來推這個案子了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業？"],["林部長佳龍：這個高科技產業園區，他們還是希望將半導體產業作為一個目標，當然會務實地把時程做個調整，希望到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標。"],["黃委員國昌：今天其實跟之前關於CABEI的質詢是一樣的，我是藉由質詢的機會，善意地提醒我們的外交部，目前我們對於立陶宛，不管是用援助還是用投資，還是用借貸的方式，所投下去的金額，包括外交部，包括國發會，統統都有在做，這些事情已經引起立陶宛那一邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題，包括這一次半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來，我善意地提醒外交部，錢花到什麼地方去，最後會不會無疾而終，錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣，甚至引發進一步的問題，我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情，因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢，像當初在援助CABEI一樣，援助了以後，引發的是更嚴重的問題。我們在跟立陶宛交朋友的時候，我們要用民主，要用自由，要用法治，要用價值，去建立所謂民主同盟的關係，這個我們大家都樂觀其成，但是當是拿我們納稅人的錢去援助的時候，接下來所會發生的事情，錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上，沒有辦法繼續下去的時候，怎麼樣好好地做好監管的措施，這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意，因為整件事情目前是現在進行式，還持續地在發展當中。今天部長您在這邊所說的話，接下來我們日後具體檢驗的時候，情況變成怎麼樣，都會被翻出來，我相信你應該心理要有準備，這樣可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛？好。我今天善意提醒到這裡。","下一個問題，我之前在追CABEI的事情，我上次請教了你一個問題，我問臺灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款，你說不會，結果你們有一個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列，所以答案到底是會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：據我後續瞭解，我們為了希望能夠增加對CABEI的影響力，畢竟我們也支持這個……"],["黃委員國昌：我們是第一大股東嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對。所以後來透過委員的質詢，我跟同仁瞭解，是有在考慮，事實上在進行中……"],["黃委員國昌：有在考慮，指的是明年嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這部分我請同仁來說明一下。"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得同仁不要迴避啦，我覺得這個問題就是我們面對中美洲銀行，希望藉由它能夠對我們的邦交國實質上給予支持，但是在監督方面，包括透明化，以及委員邀請公布資料，另外，我們怎麼去secure在這裡面我們應該有的權益跟影響力……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我簡單這樣講，你把前面所有持股的狀況、在裡面所有的比例全部拉出來看，我好奇的事情是，我們到底是要幫誰繳股款？它在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣的影響力？我們已經是第一大持股的國家了，我們還要再丟多少錢下去？過去已經丟了多少錢，結果我們過去為了要維持邦交國，砸給中美洲銀行非常非常多的錢，我上次也秀給部長看了嘛。在過去這幾年當中，陸陸續續，大家都斷交，當然最可惡的是中國，是北京嘛，這沒有問題，對於中國北京打壓臺灣的國際參與空間，當然全體國人是同仇敵愾，一起發聲，但是我的問題是什麼？我的問題是，在國際政治現實上面，我們過去為了中美洲那一邊的邦交國的維持，已經對中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢了，錢一直砸，但是邦交還是一直斷，走到今天，為什麼我會關心？我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去？而且砸錢下去，還不是花在我們自己的股份，是幫其他國家繳股款，所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重地考慮。你們真的要做這件事嗎？要花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，我上任之後，其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步，所以關於榮邦計畫，我是希望積極地去運用這些，不管是銀行或……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下。"],["林部長佳龍：也因此要有一些主導權……"],["黃委員國昌：你說要經濟外交，我這樣說，你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育，還有那一邊受虐的婦女，也就是所謂的婦女婦權計畫，你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫，過去這幾年我統統都有在看，對窮的小孩給他們教育，對婦女給他們婦權，這些直接幫助人民的行動，是增進人民跟人民之間的感情，雖然要花錢，臺灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受。但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情？我們現在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去，幫其他國家繳股款，我不好意思說這個叫金錢外交，但我希望能夠知道的事情是，你們如果真的在考慮這件事情，拿臺灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳中美洲銀行的股款，這個到底是一種什麼樣形態的外交？我可以確定這絕對不是價值外交。"],["林部長佳龍：這個是這樣，就是在這裡面我們有兩個邦交國，一個是瓜地馬拉，一個是貝里斯。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是這兩個其中之一，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：一定要是這個樣子，不然的話，就沒有保障，那我是覺得怎麼積極地去做，第一個就是委員提到的監督特別透明化，避免有弊端，這個是我們應該來努力……"],["黃委員國昌：如果談到監督透明化……"],["林部長佳龍：可是除了防弊之外，在興利這部分，怎麼去善用CABEI來對我們的邦交國或這個區域有影響力，這個是我們要去改進……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，CABEI在我們邦交國的影響力，這件事情已經實踐了十幾、二十年了，實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎？你如果今天是一個新的國際組織，我們不知道未來會怎麼樣，但是關於CABEI來講，過去這十年看得還不夠清楚嗎？錢不斷地丟，邦交國不斷地斷，所以我才想要理解，這到底是一個什麼樣的思維，要去做這樣子的事情，要投入多少錢？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，如果中共透過這個進來，對我們的邦交國絕對有衝擊，但我不是消極地去固邦，我希望榮邦，所以我們現在推的，不管價值外交、經濟外交，我們希望透過這一個……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，沒有，沒有。剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情，這個就要討論清楚，所以現在幫其他國家繳股款，是為了防止中共進入中美洲銀行，是這樣子嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我是說對我們的邦交國，我們有兩個邦交國，我們要強化跟他們的關係，包括這些銀行裡面的貸款、融資跟其他的計畫，那也可以對這個區域做……"],["黃委員國昌：我們在考慮的項目需要花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中。"],["黃委員國昌：都還沒有決定？"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有到最後的階段，所以上次委員問我的時候，因為還沒有決定，那我事後有回去跟同仁瞭解，是有在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進？"],["林部長佳龍：就是怎麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這一個組織裡面的影響力，同時除了防弊，我希望能夠興利……"],["黃委員國昌：我們在這個組織的影響力，我已經一而再、再而三跟部長報告了，你現在看得到的，在那個區域的國家，除了你剛剛提到的那兩個，現在都斷交斷完了。"],["林部長佳龍：我想要積極地去運用這個，除了防弊也要興利，所以我的意思是說，面對這個問題，委員關心的監督機制一定要強化、透明化，但是同樣另外一方面，怎麼樣善用CABEI的機制，我們也是要投入更多的心力。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，反正等到最後，到下一個階段，實質在預算的審查跟監督的時候，到底我們要不要做這樣子所謂的上引號、下引號的投資？到底值得或不值得？希望到時候外交部能夠有更堅實的理由，讓我們立法委員在通過這一種錢的時候，可以跟國民交代。"],["林部長佳龍：好，應該的，我們來努力。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。林部長請回。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}}