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00:00:27,954\n來主席謝謝麻煩請審計長好審計長來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金\n\n2\n00:00:29,375 --> 00:00:47,974\n確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就案訂基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是對出國計畫出國來我想請教一下就案訂基金他是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一條哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導\n\n3\n00:00:50,067 --> 00:01:13,869\n他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導\n\n4\n00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:40,659\n我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有\n\n5\n00:01:42,883 --> 00:01:48,535\n審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係\n\n6\n00:01:51,222 --> 00:02:16,904\n我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣吼跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有我們也有看過也看過了那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告\n\n7\n00:02:17,825 --> 00:02:31,978\n會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?\n\n8\n00:02:32,694 --> 00:02:59,776\n目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望\n\n9\n00:03:01,394 --> 00:03:06,236\n二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n\n10\n00:03:24,284 --> 00:03:46,612\n審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個等級對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受捏而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點\n\n11\n00:03:47,492 --> 00:04:06,112\n可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來\n\n12\n00:04:09,956 --> 00:04:38,450\n審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money\n\n13\n00:04:40,090 --> 00:04:44,534\n108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損有很多人就跟我們講啊就說\n\n14\n00:05:05,458 --> 00:05:20,420\n委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊\n\n15\n00:05:21,201 --> 00:05:38,955\n根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害\n\n16\n00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:52,067\n所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺\n\n17\n00:06:02,598 --> 00:06:11,491\n是國民的同我們今年還是會加強專案查專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來\n\n18\n00:06:18,681 --> 00:06:35,078\n你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字啊對我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損\n\n19\n00:06:36,479 --> 00:07:01,484\n那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換簡報以審容永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正處變最多的問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對\n\n20\n00:07:03,084 --> 00:07:08,230\n委員會後找時間、過去都悶在圖裏面當駝鳥陳議長本席要求的是審計單位要多助我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2609\t27954\t來主席謝謝麻煩請審計長好審計長來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金\n29375\t47974\t確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就案訂基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是對出國計畫出國來我想請教一下就案訂基金他是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一條哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導\n50067\t73869\t他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導\n75410\t100659\t我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有\n102883\t108535\t審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係\n111222\t136904\t我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣吼跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有我們也有看過也看過了那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告\n137825\t151978\t會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?\n152694\t179776\t目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望\n181394\t186236\t二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n204284\t226612\t審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個等級對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受捏而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點\n227492\t246112\t可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來\n249956\t278450\t審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money\n280090\t284534\t108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損有很多人就跟我們講啊就說\n305458\t320420\t委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊\n321201\t338955\t根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害\n340836\t352067\t所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺\n362598\t371491\t是國民的同我們今年還是會加強專案查專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來\n378681\t395078\t你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字啊對我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損\n396479\t421484\t那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換簡報以審容永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正處變最多的問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對\n423084\t428230\t委員會後找時間、過去都悶在圖裏面當駝鳥陳議長本席要求的是審計單位要多助我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字\n","txt":"來主席謝謝麻煩請審計長好審計長來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金\n確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就案訂基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是對出國計畫出國來我想請教一下就案訂基金他是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一條哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導\n他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導\n我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有\n審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係\n我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣吼跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有我們也有看過也看過了那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告\n會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?\n目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望\n二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個等級對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受捏而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點\n可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來\n審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money\n108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損有很多人就跟我們講啊就說\n委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊\n根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害\n所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺\n是國民的同我們今年還是會加強專案查專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來\n你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字啊對我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損\n那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換簡報以審容永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正處變最多的問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對\n委員會後找時間、過去都悶在圖裏面當駝鳥陳議長本席要求的是審計單位要多助我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.609 --> 00:27.954\n來主席謝謝麻煩請審計長好審計長來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金\n\n00:29.375 --> 00:47.974\n確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就案訂基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是對出國計畫出國來我想請教一下就案訂基金他是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一條哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導\n\n00:50.067 --> 01:13.869\n他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導\n\n01:15.410 --> 01:40.659\n我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有\n\n01:42.883 --> 01:48.535\n審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係\n\n01:51.222 --> 02:16.904\n我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣吼跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有我們也有看過也看過了那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告\n\n02:17.825 --> 02:31.978\n會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?\n\n02:32.694 --> 02:59.776\n目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望\n\n03:01.394 --> 03:06.236\n二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n\n03:24.284 --> 03:46.612\n審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個等級對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受捏而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點\n\n03:47.492 --> 04:06.112\n可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來\n\n04:09.956 --> 04:38.450\n審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money\n\n04:40.090 --> 04:44.534\n108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損有很多人就跟我們講啊就說\n\n05:05.458 --> 05:20.420\n委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊\n\n05:21.201 --> 05:38.955\n根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害\n\n05:40.836 --> 05:52.067\n所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺\n\n06:02.598 --> 06:11.491\n是國民的同我們今年還是會加強專案查專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來\n\n06:18.681 --> 06:35.078\n你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字啊對我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損\n\n06:36.479 --> 07:01.484\n那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換簡報以審容永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正處變最多的問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對\n\n07:03.084 --> 07:08.230\n委員會後找時間、過去都悶在圖裏面當駝鳥陳議長本席要求的是審計單位要多助我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.609,"end":27.954,"text":"來主席謝謝麻煩請審計長好審計長來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金"},{"start":29.375,"end":47.974,"text":"確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就案訂基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是對出國計畫出國來我想請教一下就案訂基金他是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一條哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導"},{"start":50.067,"end":73.869,"text":"他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導"},{"start":75.41,"end":100.659,"text":"我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有"},{"start":102.883,"end":108.535,"text":"審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係"},{"start":111.222,"end":136.904,"text":"我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣吼跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有我們也有看過也看過了那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告"},{"start":137.825,"end":151.978,"text":"會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?"},{"start":152.694,"end":179.776,"text":"目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望"},{"start":181.394,"end":186.236,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":204.284,"end":226.612,"text":"審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個等級對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受捏而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點"},{"start":227.492,"end":246.112,"text":"可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來"},{"start":249.956,"end":278.45,"text":"審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money"},{"start":280.09,"end":284.534,"text":"108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損有很多人就跟我們講啊就說"},{"start":305.458,"end":320.42,"text":"委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊"},{"start":321.201,"end":338.955,"text":"根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害"},{"start":340.836,"end":352.067,"text":"所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺"},{"start":362.598,"end":371.491,"text":"是國民的同我們今年還是會加強專案查專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來"},{"start":378.681,"end":395.078,"text":"你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字啊對我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損"},{"start":396.479,"end":421.484,"text":"那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換簡報以審容永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正處變最多的問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對"},{"start":423.084,"end":428.23,"text":"委員會後找時間、過去都悶在圖裏面當駝鳥陳議長本席要求的是審計單位要多助我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1149,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時19分）主席謝謝，麻煩請審計長。"],["主席：好，請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我快速的來了解一下，現在大家在講前勞動部長辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會，是用所謂的就業安定基金，確實嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你上午有答詢，這個就業安定基金裡面有政令宣導的部分，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，出國計畫……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教一下，就業安定基金是有法條，第五條裡面規定本基金用途如下，有十二款用途，哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它是放在促進國民就業的計畫，裡面有拉出來一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：促進國民就業，也就是第二個嘛！加強實施職業訓練、就業資訊的事項，或是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：你用這樣的邏輯去幫他說這就是政令宣導喔？我想請教一下……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它在預算書裡就列有政令宣導這樣的科目。"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會太牽強了一點？因為就業安定基金是有法條，第五條裡面本基金用途十二款的部分，有權益基金的支出、管理跟總務的支出、其他用途的支出，但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊！還有審計長，我想請教「孤女的願望」跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係？「我的心裡只有你沒有他」跟政令宣導有什麼關係？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在我們正在查，我只是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們也看過。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的感想是什麼？中華民國人民的納稅錢，站在審計單位的立場，可以這樣子花嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會整個了解以後提出報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：會提出報告，你今天上午有講一個月。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也有看到媒體報導，北分署長的辦公室裝潢145萬也是用就業安定基金來支出，是不是真的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：目前了解是這樣，但我們還是要……"],["洪委員孟楷：也是用就業安定基金？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，了解的情形是……"],["洪委員孟楷：那會不會太過浮濫啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們會整個全盤……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣從過去到現在，人家講就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫，原來不是傳言是事實啊！我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金，我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望，可以用就業安定基金，我想要唱「孤女的願望」，大家互相捧場一下、鼓掌一下，然後我們還要動用到我們的審計長，在委員會質詢、答詢的時候還要幫他圓這個是政令宣導。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們初步了解……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以一個月會不會太久？其實說實在話，這都已經核銷了嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為整個證據，我們審計有審計的程序……"],["洪委員孟楷：這都已經核銷了，是不是可以再加快速度？我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受，而且我們還要審明年的預算，如果這樣的話，我就覺得審計部沒有嚴格的把關。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們盡量快一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以多快？兩個禮拜行不行？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為剛剛已經答應了……"],["洪委員孟楷：連核銷的部分跟145萬的裝潢費。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個總是要完成一些程序……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以一個月內的報告，是連他當時核銷到底用什麼樣的科目、名目都會出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，都會出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我再給審計長看一下，這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料，打詐國人都很重視，我也看到今天審計的資料裡有特別講打詐專案，我們來做一個確認跟審計對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去政府部門要人給人、要錢給錢，就是要打詐。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看一下，以你對數字敏感的程度，你看一下有沒有貓膩。108年到112年，發生的件數都是兩萬多件到三萬件，損失的財損四十幾億、五十幾億、七十幾億、八十幾億，逐年增加，但突然間113年1月到10月變成七萬多件，274億的財損。有很多基層的警務同仁跟我們講：「委員啊！你們都被人騙了，政府很厲害的，都會美化數字。」所以之前臺灣一年被詐騙的數字，可能是百億以上，根本不是我們現在報出來的四、五十億啊！過去這幾年，財損都是四、五十億，發生件數都是兩、三萬件，今年突然變成七萬多件。我想就兩種可能嘛！一個是今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害，所以詐騙特別多；一個就是過去的數字都美化了、隱匿了，都沒有如實的登記，所以才會變成從112年的三萬多件，突然變成113年的七萬多件，翻了近一倍啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，詐欺是國民的痛，我們今年還是會加強專案調查，所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告，我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，本席提出來是要你督促這些單位不要美化數字啊！我今天為什麼會特別提出來，你要了解的是，你今天的年度報告裡，有講到督促所有政府部門的打詐。但如果過去這幾次，全部都是隱匿的件數或隱匿的財損，再跟財主單位回報預算都用完了，結果才發現過去這幾年，根本就是美化數字、美化相關的件數。那我們財主單位不知道，國人也被蒙在鼓裡，這樣不是很嚴重嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：從這個數字看，政府已經正式面對這個問題。"],["主席：審計長、審計長、審計長！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以代表過去沒有面對，都悶在土裡面當鴕鳥？"],["主席：是不是會後再找時間跟洪孟楷委員做一個報告，這樣子好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，本席要求的是……"],["主席：好，洪孟楷委員，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計單位要督促我們的單位，不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["主席：接著請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}}