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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 680.128, \"end\": 680.248, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 680.248, \"end\": 680.728, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 680.728, \"end\": 680.748, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,711 --> 00:00:09,756\n現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好\n\n2\n00:00:21,027 --> 00:00:44,927\n是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:46,291 --> 00:01:09,907\n我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以你是主管機關嗎?所以有定一個指引有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎?所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少?還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道?有人在列管嗎?有人在關心嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:11,179 --> 00:01:27,359\n我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總署有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去總署這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為\n\n5\n00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:45,573\n院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者\n\n6\n00:01:48,475 --> 00:02:02,485\n這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嗎\n\n7\n00:02:04,008 --> 00:02:19,134\n你完全沒有統計資料嗎?所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎?統計、管理、考核最重要是追蹤來審計長\n\n8\n00:02:28,572 --> 00:02:45,823\n剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件\n\n9\n00:02:46,963 --> 00:03:11,800\n我們會照委員的意思來處理這應該要做專案的審計如果他有這樣的狀況那他可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署好嗎?好,我們會做專案審計專案審計包括我要講說如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位可能裡面都有類似的狀態所以你可能都要去調查謝謝委員接下來就是主計長\n\n10\n00:03:13,623 --> 00:03:16,131\n剛剛說的主計處是政府的\n\n11\n00:03:17,335 --> 00:03:42,791\n管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任\n\n12\n00:03:44,172 --> 00:03:59,403\n主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章\n\n13\n00:04:00,495 --> 00:04:22,465\n其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮\n\n14\n00:04:23,866 --> 00:04:51,801\n所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長\n\n15\n00:04:53,324 --> 00:05:18,223\n剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好謝謝好接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前\n\n16\n00:05:23,263 --> 00:05:27,371\n財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎\n\n17\n00:05:28,993 --> 00:05:55,040\n抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁\n\n18\n00:05:58,202 --> 00:06:13,159\n全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成\n\n19\n00:06:16,102 --> 00:06:30,857\n臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府\n\n20\n00:06:31,758 --> 00:06:47,018\n稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?\n\n21\n00:06:48,123 --> 00:07:03,547\n因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%\n\n22\n00:07:09,048 --> 00:07:29,939\n也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?\n\n23\n00:07:31,107 --> 00:07:49,380\n目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們\n\n24\n00:07:51,121 --> 00:08:19,586\n我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向\n\n25\n00:08:21,027 --> 00:08:49,559\n因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣\n\n26\n00:08:50,359 --> 00:09:10,232\n因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%\n\n27\n00:09:15,535 --> 00:09:40,926\n所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦\n\n28\n00:09:41,486 --> 00:10:03,558\n主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來\n\n29\n00:10:04,218 --> 00:10:33,217\n一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他\n\n30\n00:10:34,678 --> 00:10:55,375\n公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛\n\n31\n00:10:57,441 --> 00:11:20,748\n如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好謝謝謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4711\t9756\t現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好\n21027\t44927\t是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?\n46291\t69907\t我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以你是主管機關嗎?所以有定一個指引有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎?所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少?還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道?有人在列管嗎?有人在關心嗎?\n71179\t87359\t我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總署有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去總署這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為\n88340\t105573\t院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者\n108475\t122485\t這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嗎\n124008\t139134\t你完全沒有統計資料嗎?所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎?統計、管理、考核最重要是追蹤來審計長\n148572\t165823\t剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件\n166963\t191800\t我們會照委員的意思來處理這應該要做專案的審計如果他有這樣的狀況那他可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署好嗎?好,我們會做專案審計專案審計包括我要講說如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位可能裡面都有類似的狀態所以你可能都要去調查謝謝委員接下來就是主計長\n193623\t196131\t剛剛說的主計處是政府的\n197335\t222791\t管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任\n224172\t239403\t主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章\n240495\t262465\t其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮\n263866\t291801\t所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長\n293324\t318223\t剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前\n323263\t327371\t財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎\n328993\t355040\t抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁\n358202\t373159\t全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成\n376102\t390857\t臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府\n391758\t407018\t稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?\n408123\t423547\t因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%\n429048\t449939\t也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?\n451107\t469380\t目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們\n471121\t499586\t我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向\n501027\t529559\t因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣\n530359\t550232\t因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%\n555535\t580926\t所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦\n581486\t603558\t主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來\n604218\t633217\t一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他\n634678\t655375\t公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛\n657441\t680748\t如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對 謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好\n是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?\n我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以你是主管機關嗎?所以有定一個指引有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎?所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少?還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道?有人在列管嗎?有人在關心嗎?\n我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總署有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去總署這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為\n院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者\n這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嗎\n你完全沒有統計資料嗎?所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎?統計、管理、考核最重要是追蹤來審計長\n剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件\n我們會照委員的意思來處理這應該要做專案的審計如果他有這樣的狀況那他可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署好嗎?好,我們會做專案審計專案審計包括我要講說如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位可能裡面都有類似的狀態所以你可能都要去調查謝謝委員接下來就是主計長\n剛剛說的主計處是政府的\n管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任\n主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章\n其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮\n所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長\n剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前\n財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎\n抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁\n全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成\n臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府\n稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?\n因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%\n也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?\n目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們\n我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向\n因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣\n因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%\n所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦\n主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來\n一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他\n公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛\n如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對 謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.711 --> 00:09.756\n現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好\n\n00:21.027 --> 00:44.927\n是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?\n\n00:46.291 --> 01:09.907\n我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以你是主管機關嗎?所以有定一個指引有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎?所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少?還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道?有人在列管嗎?有人在關心嗎?\n\n01:11.179 --> 01:27.359\n我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總署有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去總署這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為\n\n01:28.340 --> 01:45.573\n院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者\n\n01:48.475 --> 02:02.485\n這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嗎\n\n02:04.008 --> 02:19.134\n你完全沒有統計資料嗎?所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎?統計、管理、考核最重要是追蹤來審計長\n\n02:28.572 --> 02:45.823\n剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件\n\n02:46.963 --> 03:11.800\n我們會照委員的意思來處理這應該要做專案的審計如果他有這樣的狀況那他可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署好嗎?好,我們會做專案審計專案審計包括我要講說如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位可能裡面都有類似的狀態所以你可能都要去調查謝謝委員接下來就是主計長\n\n03:13.623 --> 03:16.131\n剛剛說的主計處是政府的\n\n03:17.335 --> 03:42.791\n管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任\n\n03:44.172 --> 03:59.403\n主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章\n\n04:00.495 --> 04:22.465\n其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮\n\n04:23.866 --> 04:51.801\n所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長\n\n04:53.324 --> 05:18.223\n剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好謝謝好接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前\n\n05:23.263 --> 05:27.371\n財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎\n\n05:28.993 --> 05:55.040\n抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁\n\n05:58.202 --> 06:13.159\n全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成\n\n06:16.102 --> 06:30.857\n臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府\n\n06:31.758 --> 06:47.018\n稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?\n\n06:48.123 --> 07:03.547\n因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%\n\n07:09.048 --> 07:29.939\n也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?\n\n07:31.107 --> 07:49.380\n目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們\n\n07:51.121 --> 08:19.586\n我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向\n\n08:21.027 --> 08:49.559\n因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣\n\n08:50.359 --> 09:10.232\n因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%\n\n09:15.535 --> 09:40.926\n所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦\n\n09:41.486 --> 10:03.558\n主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來\n\n10:04.218 --> 10:33.217\n一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他\n\n10:34.678 --> 10:55.375\n公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛\n\n10:57.441 --> 11:20.748\n如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好謝謝謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.711,"end":9.756,"text":"現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好"},{"start":21.027,"end":44.927,"text":"是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?"},{"start":46.291,"end":69.907,"text":"我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以你是主管機關嗎?所以有定一個指引有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎?所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少?還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道?有人在列管嗎?有人在關心嗎?"},{"start":71.179,"end":87.359,"text":"我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總署有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去總署這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為"},{"start":88.34,"end":105.573,"text":"院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者"},{"start":108.475,"end":122.485,"text":"這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嗎"},{"start":124.008,"end":139.134,"text":"你完全沒有統計資料嗎?所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎?統計、管理、考核最重要是追蹤來審計長"},{"start":148.572,"end":165.823,"text":"剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件"},{"start":166.963,"end":191.8,"text":"我們會照委員的意思來處理這應該要做專案的審計如果他有這樣的狀況那他可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署好嗎?好,我們會做專案審計專案審計包括我要講說如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位可能裡面都有類似的狀態所以你可能都要去調查謝謝委員接下來就是主計長"},{"start":193.623,"end":196.131,"text":"剛剛說的主計處是政府的"},{"start":197.335,"end":222.791,"text":"管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任"},{"start":224.172,"end":239.403,"text":"主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章"},{"start":240.495,"end":262.465,"text":"其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮"},{"start":263.866,"end":291.801,"text":"所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長"},{"start":293.324,"end":318.223,"text":"剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前"},{"start":323.263,"end":327.371,"text":"財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎"},{"start":328.993,"end":355.04,"text":"抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁"},{"start":358.202,"end":373.159,"text":"全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成"},{"start":376.102,"end":390.857,"text":"臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府"},{"start":391.758,"end":407.018,"text":"稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?"},{"start":408.123,"end":423.547,"text":"因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%"},{"start":429.048,"end":449.939,"text":"也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?"},{"start":451.107,"end":469.38,"text":"目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們"},{"start":471.121,"end":499.586,"text":"我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向"},{"start":501.027,"end":529.559,"text":"因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣"},{"start":530.359,"end":550.232,"text":"因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%"},{"start":555.535,"end":580.926,"text":"所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦"},{"start":581.486,"end":603.558,"text":"主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來"},{"start":604.218,"end":633.217,"text":"一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他"},{"start":634.678,"end":655.375,"text":"公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛"},{"start":657.441,"end":680.748,"text":"如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對 謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1266,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時34分）謝謝主席，我想請主計長、人事總處，還有審計長。"],["主席：主計長、審計長，還有人事總處副人事長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：三位好，我想剛剛大家都在問，勞動部勞動發展署前署長做的這些所謂的霸凌，還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為，我想問一下，霸凌的主管機關是人事總處嗎？公務人員有關霸凌的處理，應該由人事總處來管理嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員，人事總處是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境，所以有訂一個指引。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你是主管機關嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有訂一個指引。"],["黃委員珊珊：有訂一個指引，但是沒有強制力是嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握，全臺灣公務機關霸凌的案件有多少？還是要等到行政院長說七天之內要處理你才會知道？有人在列管嗎？有人在關心嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：我們最近有去調查和統計。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以平常沒有人管理？人事總處平常有沒有管理這方面的案件？"],["李副人事長秉洲：我們會在各個適當場合，先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去做這個。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以結論就是沒在管啦！你只有宣導而已。我現在就講，因為院長說的話，現在所有立法委員都接到很多霸凌的投訴。我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴，他是正式提出申訴，而且正式開過調查委員會，但是機關裡面很清楚，我們有個規定是得請專家學者，這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人，完全沒有任何外部人員。所以類似的案件，人事總處只能訂指引，但是你沒有做列管，也沒有做改革對嗎？你都不知道，因為你完全沒有統計資料嘛！"],["李副人事長秉洲：對，因為是各機關的管理措施。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天我就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任，至少要做列管，至少要去追蹤，至少要去考核，而不是等到院長在行政院會講話，這樣子很丟臉，好嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：對，現在我們有在做統計，然後之後我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：統計、管理、考核，最重要是追蹤。審計長，除了勞動部的事情之外，其實全國的霸凌案件，你們雖然是審計單位，你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分，包括剛剛講的這些預算濫行使用，進行專案的審計，包括霸凌案件？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會照委員的意思來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：這應該要做專案的審計。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他有這樣的狀況，那可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會做專案審計。"],["黃委員珊珊：專案審計包括，如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位，可能裡面都有類似的狀態，所以你都要去調查。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來是主計長，剛剛說主計處是政府的管家婆，審計部是政府的防腐劑，人事總處其實是公務員的守護神。你們這三個單位要確保這個政府是公平的，同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的，最重要的是，不要讓任何人可以上下其手，而不經過所有的制度，這是三位很重要的責任。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，剛剛講的，如果審計部是管後面，那你就是前面，剛剛很多委員說，前面的主計人員，在相關預算的使用上，我們應該付出什麼樣的責任，還是就閉著眼睛蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實原則上，我們在進行內部審核的時候，是要就整個……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主計處的同仁是一條鞭。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實主計應該扮演在機關裡說實話的那個人，應該說清楚，這個不宜、不可以，我在臺北市的時候，我們的主計長常常就是在做煞車皮。所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的，審計要去做專案審查，主計也要通令全國的主計同仁，發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行，可能都要先舉手，甚至要提告，要報出來，不要等到什麼民眾爆料，我們現在都靠爆料在過日子啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們這個會加強。"],["黃委員珊珊：人事總處的副人事長，現在你應該建立一個機制，如何將霸凌成為人事總處列管各機關相關執行公務，當公務員的保護神，不能只是宣導。你就只是宣導，然後最後是行政院長出來講，我覺得這樣人事總處很失職。"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來副人事長可以請回，我想請教審計長，審計長知道之前財政部發生了一件事情，就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的抽獎，然後有四個人在三波抽獎中大獎，造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損，你有注意到這件事嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們會了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信公務員也不會因為區區的獎品，故意拿他的職涯開玩笑，但是它的機制的確出了問題，現在的問題就在於……主計長，我在這邊也要請教全臺灣都在推所謂的電子發票，財政部這麼認真努力、用力的推電子發票，還鬧出了這個大烏龍。電子發票在臺灣所有國人到113年9月使用載具儲存已經高達58%，將近六成，臺北市的市民更高達七成，也就是使用雲端發票載具的民眾已經非常多了，推廣電子發票也是重要的國策，現在的重點是要結合電子帳務，包括商家、包括政府、稅務申報、經費支持，而且最重要的是它不會被偽造，現在的問題就在於政府部門使用電子發票，或者是要求電子核銷的比例，在我看來還是太慢了。主計長，你自己認為呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，使用電子發票這個部分的業務是由財政部在推動，我們是負責整個結報系統……"],["黃委員珊珊：你是負責結算、報帳……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，報帳的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：財資中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市，臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%，也就是說，由政府帶頭來要求廠商，或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購，這已經成為政府帶動電子發票使用很重要的里程碑，臺北市有99%，其他機關現在做到多少？中央政府機關有沒有在推？有沒有比例？有沒有KPI？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前我們是達到26%。"],["黃委員珊珊：26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們也在努力，這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：一個政府不能有三套事情，財政部拚命在推，可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購條件。主計總處在105年考察新加坡，人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部用電子發票了！這是你們自己的考察報告寫的。您新任主計長，這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告時，說這是未來數位化政府的趨勢，請問你要不要訂出一個具體的方向？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們主要是搭配財政部的電子化發票的一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計處要有自己的立場，你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話，財政部會輕鬆很多啊！如果今天相關的機關出去買東西希望他有電子發票，很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來，我們要的是以公帶私，從公部門開始引領，我相信很多商家都會跟進。臺北市為什麼能夠推廣？因為後來很多的商家都主動說他們要申請電子發票，因為這樣子可以做到公部門相關的……賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話，它就比較容易被選到，這就是以公帶私。我希望主計長能夠訂出一個未來的目標，看看多久達到50%、多久達到80%、多久達到90%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們近來再研究看看是要怎樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：不要再研究了，這個是政府的政策啦！你訂出一個相關的時程表，至少要努力達到50%，中央政府到現在為止並沒有都加入。第二個，雖然你們做了一個平臺，但是目前使用狀況也不好。第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI，你如果頒一個獎，就會有很多人往上走啦！主計處最喜歡頒獎，對不對？頒獎之後，地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取，所以關鍵在於你們要不要訂出這個方向，數位化政府不是說假的，數位化政府要從自己先做起，如果數位化政府是賴總統或卓院長的重要政策，主計長，在這個月底我希望有個初步的規劃，訂出未來一年、兩年、三年的目標值，然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：一個月之內給我一個答案，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能沒有方向啦！如果臺北市可以做到99%，我相信六都一定做得到，只是時程方面我們不要給公務員太大的壓力，但是要往這個方向走，不要讓財政部一個人在做啦！它拚命在做頒獎、在做抽獎，公部門沒有人理它，公部門的發票還是一樣用原來的原始方法，每天都在那邊貼來貼去，那個很容易出錯，而且也可能作假嘛！所以電子發票是一個很好的方法，數位國家不要說空話，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：審計部，我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面……其實你們會不會比較輕鬆？如果有電子發票系統的話，會輕鬆很多吧！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：不用一個個查核，不用黏貼每一張單據嘛！好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷、使用電子發票未來的計畫時程表，以及你要達到的KPI，然後跟地方政府好好的溝通，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員，主計跟審計記得要在一個月內提出這樣的計畫給黃珊珊委員。","鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","主席在這裡宣告：今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。現在進行討論事項及臨時提案的處理，請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算案的審查項目，預算提案共84案，預計宣讀的時間是20分鐘，宣讀完畢預計是13時15分，屆時我們要進行協商，沒有相關提案的列席機關代表都可以先行離開，但是行政院、財政部、人事總處要預留一位同仁在現場可以諮詢協商，其他同仁可以在現場用餐。","現在請議事人員宣讀。","一、預算數：","114年度中央政府總預算案","行政院主計總處歲入部分","第2款　罰款及賠償收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第9頁）","第6項　主計總處無列數","第1目　罰金罰鍰及怠金無列數","第2目　沒入及沒收財物無列數","第3目　賠償收入無列數","第3款　規費收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第75頁）","第5項　主計總處9萬7千元","第1目　使用規費收入9萬7千元","第4款　財產收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第140頁）","第7項　主計總處39萬6千元","第1目　財產孳息26萬6千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價13萬元","第7款　其他收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第208頁）","第7項　主計總處89萬5千元","第1目　雜項收入89萬5千元","行政院主計總處歲出部分","第2款　行政院主管","第2項　主計總處14億6,643萬1千元","　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第25至第29頁）","第1目　一般行政9億4,174萬3千元","第2目　中央總預算核編及執行531萬4千元","第3目　特種基金預算核編及執行266萬1千元","第4目　會計及決算業務420萬2千元","第5目　綜合統計業務3,022萬8千元","第6目　國勢普查業務1億2,206萬3千元","第7目　主計訓練業務1,798萬5千元","第8目　主計資訊業務1億4,778萬5千元","第9目　一般建築及設備1億9,260萬元","第10目　第一預備金185萬元","審計部及所屬歲入部分","第2款　罰款及賠償收入　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第26至第27頁）","第63項　審計部無列數","第1目　賠償收入無列數","第64項　審計部臺北市審計處無列數","第1目　賠償收入無列數","第65項　審計部高雄市審計處無列數","第1目　賠償收入無列數","第4款　財產收入　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第155至第156頁）","第69項　審計部123萬3千元","第1目　財產孳息108萬5千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價14萬8千元","第70項　審計部臺北市審計處3萬2千元","第1目　財產孳息1萬2千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價2萬元","第71項　審計部新北市審計處1萬2千元","第1目　財產孳息1萬1千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價1千元","第72項　審計部桃園市審計處5千元","第1目　財產孳息4千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價1千元","第73項　審計部臺中市審計處5千元","第1目　財產孳息3千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價2千元","第74項　審計部臺南市審計處12萬7千元","第1目　財產孳息12萬5千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價2千元","第75項　審計部高雄市審計處4萬元","第1目　財產孳息4萬元","第2目　廢舊物資售價無列數","第7款　其他收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第223第224頁）","第69項　審計部103萬5千元","第1目　雜項收入103萬5千元","第70項　審計部臺北市審計處1萬6千元","第1目　雜項收入1萬6千元","第71項　審計部新北市審計處8千元","第1目　雜項收入8千元","第72項　審計部桃園市審計處無列數","第1目　雜項收入無列數","第73項　審計部臺中市審計處無列數","第1目　雜項收入無列數","第74項　審計部臺南市審計處無列數","第1目　雜項收入無列數","審計部及所屬歲出部分","第6款　監察院主管","第2項　審計部13億6,115萬5千元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第20至第21頁）","第1目　一般行政12億4,064萬6千元","第2目　中央政府審計7,418萬6千元","第3目　縣市地方審計996萬3千元","第4目　一般建築及設備3,298萬5千元","第5目　第一預備金337萬5千元","第3項　審計部臺北市審計處8,457萬2千元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第16頁）","第1目　一般行政8,274萬元","第2目　審計業務175萬2千元","第3目　第一預備金8萬元","第4項　審計部新北市審計處7,043萬7千元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第18頁）","第1目　一般行政6,855萬7千元","第2目　審計業務180萬元","第3目　第一預備金8萬元","第5項　審計部桃園市審計處6,647萬4千元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第16頁）","第1目　一般行政6,534萬4千元","第2目　審計業務105萬元","第3目　第一預備金8萬元","第6項　審計部臺中市審計處7,399萬元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第16頁）","第1目　一般行政7,245萬8千元","第2目　審計業務145萬2千元","第3目　一般建築及設備無列數","第4目　第一預備金8萬元","第7項　審計部臺南市審計處6,912萬6千元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第18頁）","第1目　一般行政6,744萬元","第2目　審計業務160萬6千元","第3目　第一預備金8萬元","第8項　審計部高雄市審計處8,335萬元","（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第16頁）","第1目　一般行政8,173萬2千元","第2目　審計業務153萬8千元","第3目　第一預備金8萬元","直轄市及縣市政府、調整軍公教人員待遇準備、災害準備金及第二預備金歲出部分","第26款　直轄市及縣市政府2,501億1,279萬元","第1項　直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2,501億1,279萬元","（請參閱總預算書歲出部分第754至第756頁）","第1目　直轄市及縣市教育補助659億0,412萬1千元","第2目　直轄市及縣市交通補助110億元","第3目　直轄市及縣市其他經濟服務補助373億1,104萬元","第4目　直轄市及縣市社會保險補助10億1,811萬8千元","第5目　直轄市及縣市社會救助補助79億1,843萬4千元","第6目　直轄市及縣市福利服務補助527億6,096萬8千元","第7目　直轄市及縣市其他基本財政支出補助222億0,010萬9千元","第8目　直轄市及縣市平衡預算補助520億元","第27款　調整軍公教人員待遇準備99億3,107萬9千元","（請參閱總預算書歲出部分第757頁）","第28款　災害準備金50億元","（請參閱總預算書歲出部分第758頁）","第29款　第二預備金80億元","（請參閱總預算書歲出部分第759頁）","二、委員提案："]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}}