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\"start\": 662.683, \"end\": 662.703, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 662.703, \"end\": 662.723, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 662.723, \"end\": 662.823, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 662.823, \"end\": 662.843, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 662.843, \"end\": 662.924, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 662.924, \"end\": 663.444, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 663.444, \"end\": 663.464, \"score\": 0.691}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,756 --> 00:00:03,257\n公共工程委員會主委陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:15,239 --> 00:00:16,420\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管\n\n3\n00:00:32,088 --> 00:00:49,815\n那當然諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了\n\n4\n00:00:51,756 --> 00:01:15,472\n該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表\n\n5\n00:01:17,305 --> 00:01:42,147\n剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:45,197 --> 00:02:07,072\n你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標\n\n7\n00:02:14,258 --> 00:02:19,690\n那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個\n\n8\n00:02:20,868 --> 00:02:46,040\n重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫\n\n9\n00:02:47,000 --> 00:03:01,546\n那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好\n\n10\n00:03:02,806 --> 00:03:31,386\n現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實\n\n11\n00:03:33,543 --> 00:03:55,946\n誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查\n\n12\n00:03:56,963 --> 00:04:25,235\n那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是\n\n13\n00:04:26,016 --> 00:04:39,530\n農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用\n\n14\n00:04:40,885 --> 00:05:08,000\n你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:09,622 --> 00:05:27,256\n以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保\n\n16\n00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:47,696\n水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒\n\n17\n00:05:49,917 --> 00:06:07,271\n主委副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料\n\n18\n00:06:07,931 --> 00:06:22,177\n那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引\n\n19\n00:06:23,342 --> 00:06:51,487\n明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK\n\n20\n00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,117\n所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?\n\n21\n00:06:59,362 --> 00:07:27,225\n如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了\n\n22\n00:07:28,206 --> 00:07:32,558\n各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦\n\n23\n00:07:33,922 --> 00:07:59,132\n我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到\n\n24\n00:07:59,352 --> 00:08:25,787\n那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳\n\n25\n00:08:26,587 --> 00:08:27,249\n和排的這個檢核表我覺得要\n\n26\n00:08:31,109 --> 00:08:55,915\n做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎\n\n27\n00:09:00,427 --> 00:09:20,754\n是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛\n\n28\n00:09:22,103 --> 00:09:46,312\n報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說\n\n29\n00:09:47,612 --> 00:10:02,113\n既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準\n\n30\n00:10:03,195 --> 00:10:17,410\n準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有\n\n31\n00:10:18,331 --> 00:10:37,291\n我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像\n\n32\n00:10:39,418 --> 00:10:40,098\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n\n33\n00:11:02,683 --> 00:11:03,464\n公共工程委員會單位預算\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1756\t3257\t公共工程委員會主委陳主委\n15239\t16420\t委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管\n32088\t49815\t那當然 諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了\n51756\t75472\t該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表\n77305\t102147\t剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?\n105197\t127072\t你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標\n134258\t139690\t那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個\n140868\t166040\t重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫\n167000\t181546\t那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好\n182806\t211386\t現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實\n213543\t235946\t誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查\n236963\t265235\t那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是\n266016\t279530\t農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用\n280885\t308000\t你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?\n309622\t327256\t以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保\n328519\t347696\t水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒\n349917\t367271\t主委 副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料\n367931\t382177\t那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引\n383342\t411487\t明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK\n414120\t417117\t所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?\n419362\t447225\t如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了\n448206\t452558\t各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦\n453922\t479132\t我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到\n479352\t505787\t那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳\n506587\t507249\t和排的這個檢核表我覺得要\n511109\t535915\t做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎\n540427\t560754\t是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛\n562103\t586312\t報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說\n587612\t602113\t既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準\n603195\t617410\t準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有\n618331\t637291\t我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像\n639418\t640098\t委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n662683\t663464\t公共工程委員會單位預算\n","txt":"公共工程委員會主委陳主委\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管\n那當然 諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了\n該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表\n剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?\n你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標\n那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個\n重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫\n那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好\n現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實\n誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查\n那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是\n農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用\n你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?\n以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保\n水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒\n主委 副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料\n那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引\n明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK\n所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?\n如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了\n各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦\n我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到\n那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳\n和排的這個檢核表我覺得要\n做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎\n是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛\n報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說\n既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準\n準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有\n我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n公共工程委員會單位預算\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.756 --> 00:03.257\n公共工程委員會主委陳主委\n\n00:15.239 --> 00:16.420\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管\n\n00:32.088 --> 00:49.815\n那當然諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了\n\n00:51.756 --> 01:15.472\n該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表\n\n01:17.305 --> 01:42.147\n剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?\n\n01:45.197 --> 02:07.072\n你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標\n\n02:14.258 --> 02:19.690\n那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個\n\n02:20.868 --> 02:46.040\n重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫\n\n02:47.000 --> 03:01.546\n那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好\n\n03:02.806 --> 03:31.386\n現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實\n\n03:33.543 --> 03:55.946\n誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查\n\n03:56.963 --> 04:25.235\n那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是\n\n04:26.016 --> 04:39.530\n農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用\n\n04:40.885 --> 05:08.000\n你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?\n\n05:09.622 --> 05:27.256\n以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保\n\n05:28.519 --> 05:47.696\n水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒\n\n05:49.917 --> 06:07.271\n主委副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料\n\n06:07.931 --> 06:22.177\n那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引\n\n06:23.342 --> 06:51.487\n明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK\n\n06:54.120 --> 06:57.117\n所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?\n\n06:59.362 --> 07:27.225\n如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了\n\n07:28.206 --> 07:32.558\n各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦\n\n07:33.922 --> 07:59.132\n我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到\n\n07:59.352 --> 08:25.787\n那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳\n\n08:26.587 --> 08:27.249\n和排的這個檢核表我覺得要\n\n08:31.109 --> 08:55.915\n做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎\n\n09:00.427 --> 09:20.754\n是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛\n\n09:22.103 --> 09:46.312\n報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說\n\n09:47.612 --> 10:02.113\n既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準\n\n10:03.195 --> 10:17.410\n準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有\n\n10:18.331 --> 10:37.291\n我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像\n\n10:39.418 --> 10:40.098\n委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播\n\n11:02.683 --> 11:03.464\n公共工程委員會單位預算\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.756,"end":3.257,"text":"公共工程委員會主委陳主委"},{"start":15.239,"end":16.42,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":32.088,"end":49.815,"text":"那當然 諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了"},{"start":51.756,"end":75.472,"text":"該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表"},{"start":77.305,"end":102.147,"text":"剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?"},{"start":105.197,"end":127.072,"text":"你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標"},{"start":134.258,"end":139.69,"text":"那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個"},{"start":140.868,"end":166.04,"text":"重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫"},{"start":167,"end":181.546,"text":"那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好"},{"start":182.806,"end":211.386,"text":"現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實"},{"start":213.543,"end":235.946,"text":"誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查"},{"start":236.963,"end":265.235,"text":"那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是"},{"start":266.016,"end":279.53,"text":"農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用"},{"start":280.885,"end":308,"text":"你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?"},{"start":309.622,"end":327.256,"text":"以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保"},{"start":328.519,"end":347.696,"text":"水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒"},{"start":349.917,"end":367.271,"text":"主委 副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料"},{"start":367.931,"end":382.177,"text":"那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引"},{"start":383.342,"end":411.487,"text":"明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK"},{"start":414.12,"end":417.117,"text":"所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?"},{"start":419.362,"end":447.225,"text":"如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了"},{"start":448.206,"end":452.558,"text":"各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦"},{"start":453.922,"end":479.132,"text":"我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到"},{"start":479.352,"end":505.787,"text":"那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳"},{"start":506.587,"end":507.249,"text":"和排的這個檢核表我覺得要"},{"start":511.109,"end":535.915,"text":"做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎"},{"start":540.427,"end":560.754,"text":"是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛"},{"start":562.103,"end":586.312,"text":"報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說"},{"start":587.612,"end":602.113,"text":"既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準"},{"start":603.195,"end":617.41,"text":"準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有"},{"start":618.331,"end":637.291,"text":"我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像"},{"start":639.418,"end":640.098,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":662.683,"end":663.464,"text":"公共工程委員會單位預算"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1020,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時36分）謝謝召委素月委員。我們是不是請公共工程委員會陳金德主委？"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。午安！不好意思！讓大家都還沒吃午餐，我儘快，有效率地說。","我想主委應該知道，我一直很關注公共工程淨零碳排的時程，還有它怎麼樣去落實。當然主委應該也知道，2022年3月國發會就公布了一個我們2050要邁向淨零的路徑，我想你應該都看過。但是我想要聚焦的還是在於，在這個公布之後，我當然知道各個部會都啟動了，該修法規的修法規，該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施，那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050淨零路徑的目標。","我知道工程會在2022年8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳注意事項及相關的檢核表。剛剛蔡其昌委員在關心生態檢核表，我之前也關心過生態檢核表，我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會，希望能夠讓各機關都落實做好生態檢核表。同樣地，我們現在為了推動淨零碳排，我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表。主委，你有看過這個檢核表嗎？你應該沒看過啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：我請處長……"],["何委員欣純：因為這個是比較執行細節，我知道你一定沒看過啦！但是在公共工程委員會所訂的減碳檢核的注意事項裡面有說，各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得依工程規模及性質，訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳檢核機制，並應設定減碳目標。以這個為開始，我就要請主委，第一個，是不是好好地來重新去檢視一下你們內部研擬現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的檢核表？我為什麼這麼說呢？因為這裡面的很多條件，或者很多的事項，都是各個基層工程人員，或者甚至是包商必須主動地來勾選跟填寫。同樣地，我上次說有可能我們基層的公共工程承辦人員對生態不懂，所以他的檢核表有可能不是做得很好。","現在減碳的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題，我之前就提醒過了，我們現在對於各機關在辦理公共工程相關的公務人員也好，或者是公共工程界裡面的包商等相關的專業人員也好，到底懂不懂什麼叫節能減碳的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實，誰又有第三方單位來驗證？那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣的公權力嗎？請教主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：關於減碳的檢核部分，我所瞭解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候，都會按一定比例來編制關於碳的盤查，我想這個就是一個起步。"],["何委員欣純：好。主委，這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的。可是你自己再回去檢視一下你的減碳檢核表，你們現行的減碳檢核表第一個沒有數據，完全都是文字敘述，所以跟你講的……我就要給你看。對！每一個機關確實有依他們自己的工程特性去訂一個參考指引，我目前找到的是農業部的農村發展與水土保持署，它在2023年12月有提出這個參考指引。那水保工程的參考指引裡面是用你講的經費數據，依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限等等，都是用錢來做你說的碳排上限的計算。可是問題是，主委，用錢來做出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎？以公共工程委員會的角度來看，OK嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了，那公共工程委員會裡面有……"],["何委員欣純：各個部會都開始著手了嗎？我目前找到的是水保署。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，水利署。"],["何委員欣純：現在這個叫水保署。"],["陳主任委員金德：水利及水保……"],["何委員欣純：沒關係！水利跟水保……"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛剛講是機關，機關是水利署做得比較前進一點。目前工程會也參考水利署過去關於碳排係數這樣的統計。"],["何委員欣純：目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位，其他都還沒？"],["陳主任委員金德：請副主委說明。"],["何委員欣純：好，副主委你講。"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，當然是誠如剛剛主委所講的，走得比較前面、比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署，已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是加上農業部的水保署，就像委員提供的資料。"],["何委員欣純：那其他單位呢？"],["李副主任委員怡德：其他的我們今年9月的時候有邀請相關的部會一起過來，目前我們也給大家任務就是明年要完成公共工程……"],["何委員欣純：明年什麼時候？"],["李副主任委員怡德：明年底前要完成公共工程節能減碳的指引。"],["何委員欣純：明年年底前完成？"],["李副主任委員怡德：對。"],["何委員欣純：我是希望能夠早就早……"],["李副主任委員怡德：我們會催促大家，請大家來提……"],["何委員欣純：因為有做公共工程的部會太多了，那還有我們地方的機關呢？又更多了，是不是？如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話，那地方政府怎麼會跟呢？地方的機關怎麼會跟呢？這是第一個。","第二個，你剛剛是告訴我們說，水保署的指引目標你也認為OK？所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考，可以當範本嗎？如果可以當範本的話，那基本上是不用到一年，到明年年底。"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署，因為他們起步比較早，好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情……"],["何委員欣純：所以我是建議……"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，給我一點時間。我們看各部會的報告上來之後，其實我們也要去對齊大家的基準跟方法，以及一些計算的標準。"],["何委員欣純：我現在又要問你了。各部會的計算方法、基準通通亂七八糟啦！我們公共工程委員會如何去給它一個基本的……"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，目前我們就做兩件事情，就是碳排係數已經收集了大概一千……"],["何委員欣純：一千一百多啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：一千一百多。另外根據我們原本關於預算的估算系統，會增加碳排的估算，會結合起來……"],["何委員欣純：我知道，你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後，比方說各機關在建置公共建設的時候，才有個依據。除了預算的估算之外，碳排也可以估算。"],["何委員欣純：主委，我是支持的，預算我一定會相挺。只是我是在提醒，就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問，我們未來要執行的碳排檢核表，我覺得要做到位。我剛剛就點出來了，每個部會、每個各項的不同的公共工程，包括怎麼碳盤查、怎麼碳管理，還有碳排的計算方式通通都不一樣啦！你剛剛講了說用工程經費、用價錢來估算CO2的碳排上限，那也只是其中的一個方式，那當然是最方便，但是最方便是真的嗎？是可信任的嗎？是可靠的數據嗎？剛剛副主委在搖頭耶！所以不要便宜行事啊！我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點，你自己要先有依據、先有基準、先有準則，你才能夠去要求各部會、各機關嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告，關於公共工程的碳排，它有前端材料端；在生產端，基本上不管水泥也好、鋼筋也好，那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位產品的碳排，再來就是施工階段……"],["何委員欣純：是啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：施工階段當然現場要盤查，後端才是維護管理的部分要節能減碳。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！所以我是提醒說，既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程，也要邁向2050淨零碳排的路徑，那我們就有這個責任，要中央帶頭示範，要先把一些基準、準則、依據先搞定。","我再提醒，我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的計算方式、盤查的方式、管理的方式？還有，我再提醒一次，用工程預算去試算出來的CO2排放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