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00:01:33,469\n我可以知道你要愛護這個同仁的心情而且但是這個事情是這樣之前包含總統也好院長也好都已經下令說要各單位來清查這個事情那但是的確下令之後很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料那今天這個新聞也上了檯面了\n\n5\n00:01:34,429 --> 00:02:03,649\n拜託在,市長也在,我們希望利用這個機會我也不會關太久,我只想請市長簡單說明這個是事實呢還是說涉及到內部的這個鬥爭因為其實我們去講一個另外面向的確霸凌案發生之後我們也收到很多的檢舉案但是有些並不是事實,有些是內部的這個爭議所以我今天想要請市長有機會可以把話講清楚一下這個你被指控被爆料被投訴的這個東西第一個它是不是事實你認為這樣做那第二個\n\n6\n00:02:04,729 --> 00:02:31,295\n這樣做的原因會不會爆料出來有沒有涉及到你們內部的這個爭鬥鬥爭的問題謝謝委員給我這個機會我想這個事情造成整個部裡面整個還有對我們部的形象的傷害深感抱歉那我會甚至檢討然後接受調查因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組我會接受調查上好市長謝謝市長請回\n\n7\n00:02:35,597 --> 00:02:53,667\n市長,我還是要再次強調我們肯定市長至少今天願意出席比起不願意面對這個之前的謝憤組長好太多了所以我想後續不管他的調查結果怎麼樣本期今天還是要肯定說市長願意在這個數位部質詢的時候他願意來出席這個這個隨時被可能被問到的問題好那進到主題\n\n8\n00:02:54,946 --> 00:03:22,631\n政府長我們過去常常很多次已經跟數位部溝通過到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理那之前你們跟我提說你們有這個能量登錄的問題能量登錄之後那如果沒有登錄的業者他跟銀行之間的這個金流銀行端也會去處理但是我們從這個重大的新聞看到之前這個數支付之前也曾經在這個能量登錄的這個清單上面當然先被廢止了我想問一下什麼時候被廢止了\n\n9\n00:03:23,893 --> 00:03:28,123\n報告委員,我們現在正在進行基合的工作,那是不是請署長做個說明?\n\n10\n00:03:30,703 --> 00:03:55,911\n謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我們在事前的話部長已經指示了以後要登錄一定要徵信那在事中的話一定要現地審查不是只有會議審查那事後的話一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核這個部分的經濟我們正在推行當中部長跟署長你看之前這個大概有第三次再第四次質詢問這個所謂第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理的問題跟後端金流的問題\n\n11\n00:03:57,171 --> 00:04:12,381\n拜託說如果今天因為這個都是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄的審和通過名單的所以可能有業者或民眾不知情他甚至搜尋新聞都是正面新聞搜尋官方文件他也在上面那表示說你們這個能量登錄\n\n12\n00:04:13,602 --> 00:04:39,363\n現在才要再做審核那表示現在放在名單上的公司是不是都可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具那你們到底要怎麼辦呢已經講了這麼久了結果現在被媒體爆出來說這個數支付曾經被你們放在這個審核上數支付曾經就在這個能量登錄上審核通過名單在前期版他都在上面但是他卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具\n\n13\n00:04:40,806 --> 00:04:47,238\n表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛那你們一直說要去跟銀行端去做這個背書去做審查我想問一下\n\n14\n00:04:48,414 --> 00:05:12,021\n數位部有能力去管銀行嗎那像這樣子而且這是你們通過的這個是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面所以說實在當然依照你們的說法還合法合理的去跟銀行去做交涉銀行也覺得說你是通過數位部認證的還去通過這個國際FIDO聯盟這FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入啊你們數位部也有加入啊\n\n15\n00:05:15,297 --> 00:05:40,236\n所以你們共同等於是在形象上面第一個你們有名單上有這個公司那FDI聯盟裡面數字部也獲他們邀請然後數位部也在這FDI聯盟裡面那變成好像他是個很合法很合理的公司結果他就私底洗錢所以我今天要講的是當然你們要去做徵信這個一定要做的嘛但我今天問題是說之前一直提到一件事情詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續的金流怎麼走那結果今天我在這個名單裡面\n\n16\n00:05:42,133 --> 00:05:56,867\n被放上名單的公司他居然可以去涉及洗錢那是不是還有其他的未報單數位部要怎麼稽查你們跟財政部或是你們跟機管會到底要怎麼合作還是這件事情是各推各的我們現在就是在精進這個整個計劃的機制我再請署長說個說明\n\n17\n00:05:58,547 --> 00:06:16,098\n那三個面向來回復委員的問題第一個是查核我們幾乎已經快全部查核了所以以後這樣出資戶這樣的會機率其實是很低的我們都要限定而且找資安專家跟法律專家去查核這是第一點第二點的話我們跟我們讓檢警調去查詢\n\n18\n00:06:16,838 --> 00:06:35,552\n我們現在有一個快訊的查,市長方似乎那個訊息上的快訊快速的查詢那個可以很快的就全存了這個是第二點第三點數字會claim他他那個那個FIDO那個是錯的我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席已經確認過了那個是比較錯誤的資訊以上他們發假新聞是不是錯誤的對他們發佈假新聞是不是這個意思他其實已經邀請好像已經找他進\n\n19\n00:06:46,135 --> 00:06:52,980\n拜託聯盟主席除了這間公司還有沒有其他台灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面目前我們會再跟他確認不過那時候只有這一家這樣\n\n20\n00:07:10,717 --> 00:07:28,433\n那銀行端有沒有回答我啊?到底銀行端怎麼處理?他們是誰去做徵信?是你們做徵信還是銀行做徵信?還是財政部還是金管會?因為今天還是核心問題嘛。你們一開始跟我保證的。這是這個會期講的事情。說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法。\n\n21\n00:07:29,312 --> 00:07:52,934\n合理的合法的公司但是實際上就沒有實際上就是你們放上去的公司5月5、6月5、6月份還在上面的公司今天9月份爆發這個被檢點查獲他為詐騙集團洗錢那你現在還把它撤掉那我現在問你們就算以現在台北商這幾間公司來講你們到底要怎麼去稽查那到底你們曾經背書過了\n\n22\n00:07:54,819 --> 00:07:55,279\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n\n23\n00:08:16,733 --> 00:08:27,825\n那12月又被騙上百億一月再騙上百億二月再騙上百億那都是通過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作那我想問一下數位部的功能你們做這個所謂的能量登錄的功能在哪裡\n\n24\n00:08:35,373 --> 00:08:49,786\n委員回報一下就是銀行當然他也會有自己的集合的程序這個反而他就有一些相關的程序那我們這邊其實是因為資訊來源很大的一部分除了我們徵信以外還有電話局這邊我們跟電話局其實有密切的合作\n\n25\n00:08:50,467 --> 00:09:12,143\n到時候調查局其實為了我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做集合好那這個你們提書片報告吧因為這個你們講很多次的我之前每次為了你們都跟我講會跟調查局會跟銀行會跟計畫合作但是事實證明就這件事情是無效的那最後一點時間我再問一次齁再問一件事情除了第三方支付公司之外還有一個管道這大家也提醒過很多次就是所謂超商繳費稅務管不到\n\n26\n00:09:15,008 --> 00:09:40,705\n這個數位部超商講會的問題你知道這個國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到欸還有沒有說沒有收到說這個通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量能有進行能量登錄的公司合作換句話說沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司他們是在銀行端你們在銀行端這邊有處理的但是這些所謂第三方支付公司他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶有很多虛擬帳戶\n\n27\n00:09:43,547 --> 00:09:44,748\n對,知道,那這已經也有處理,那請你素查說明。\n\n28\n00:10:01,181 --> 00:10:19,308\n各位委員報告就是我們跟經濟部已經聯訪了就是四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平台檢警掉很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是屬於哪個跟哪一個第三方職務合作所以很快就可以把這個詐騙的訊息給他去處理這樣子所以這個條代碼這個條代碼跟某個公司對應是確實這樣我知道\n\n29\n00:10:24,363 --> 00:10:46,020\n但是我的問題是說詐騙行為發生的那一刻他是要詐騙行為發生之後檢體掉介入了我才會知道這個錢這個帳戶是被騙的嗎是假的嗎那我說前端呢前端超商我在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候我需要怎麼樣認證我需要知道什麼消息我才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約\n\n30\n00:11:11,943 --> 00:11:36,563\n今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他的機制能不能跟超商去要求或怎麼樣配合他們去審核還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放的想跟誰合作就跟誰合作現在就是這樣啊跟委員回報就是我們現在有64家登錄通過的當然超商會找這個64家他們沒有收到通知啊他們說他們沒有收到通知啊\n\n31\n00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:48,227\n我們會再來跟經濟部這邊再來通知我們上次已經找四大超商那個已經cover台灣大部分的這個這個條代碼的一個代收代付這樣子\n\n32\n00:11:48,544 --> 00:12:13,149\n好這個也要拜託你們要確實執行因為這個詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕也最痛影響人民財產最深的也是稅部最該做的事情啦那這個部分也拜託也要請你們提出報告讓我們委員會瞭解到底你們怎麼樣針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係怎麼建立這個集合機制可以嗎可以好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1699\t8232\t謝謝主席我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長跟任性建設師鄭明宗司長鄭司長\n19678\t44276\t委員好來部長好市長好這個一開始當然還是要關切一下我想我們這新聞上事件看到了這個數位部職場霸凌案的問題我想今天市長來我覺得還是先給肯定市長你願意勇於負責相較於先前這個勞動部那位分組長直接消失不見了我想市長的這個態度還值得肯定那我想先請教一下這個市長你被指控的這些事情是事實呢還是這是你們這個內部的這個職場鬥爭\n49005\t50566\t部長當然是這樣啦\n74178\t93469\t我可以知道你要愛護這個同仁的心情而且但是這個事情是這樣之前包含總統也好院長也好都已經下令說要各單位來清查這個事情那但是的確下令之後很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料那今天這個新聞也上了檯面了\n94429\t123649\t拜託在,市長也在,我們希望利用這個機會我也不會關太久,我只想請市長簡單說明這個是事實呢還是說涉及到內部的這個鬥爭因為其實我們去講一個另外面向的確霸凌案發生之後我們也收到很多的檢舉案但是有些並不是事實,有些是內部的這個爭議所以我今天想要請市長有機會可以把話講清楚一下這個你被指控被爆料被投訴的這個東西第一個它是不是事實你認為這樣做那第二個\n124729\t151295\t這樣做的原因會不會爆料出來有沒有涉及到你們內部的這個爭鬥鬥爭的問題謝謝委員給我這個機會我想這個事情造成整個部裡面整個還有對我們部的形象的傷害深感抱歉那我會甚至檢討然後接受調查因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組我會接受調查上好市長謝謝市長請回\n155597\t173667\t市長,我還是要再次強調我們肯定市長至少今天願意出席比起不願意面對這個之前的謝憤組長好太多了所以我想後續不管他的調查結果怎麼樣本期今天還是要肯定說市長願意在這個數位部質詢的時候他願意來出席這個這個隨時被可能被問到的問題好那進到主題\n174946\t202631\t政府長我們過去常常很多次已經跟數位部溝通過到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理那之前你們跟我提說你們有這個能量登錄的問題能量登錄之後那如果沒有登錄的業者他跟銀行之間的這個金流銀行端也會去處理但是我們從這個重大的新聞看到之前這個數支付之前也曾經在這個能量登錄的這個清單上面當然先被廢止了我想問一下什麼時候被廢止了\n203893\t208123\t報告委員,我們現在正在進行基合的工作,那是不是請署長做個說明?\n210703\t235911\t謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我們在事前的話部長已經指示了以後要登錄一定要徵信那在事中的話一定要現地審查不是只有會議審查那事後的話一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核這個部分的經濟我們正在推行當中部長跟署長你看之前這個大概有第三次再第四次質詢問這個所謂第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理的問題跟後端金流的問題\n237171\t252381\t拜託說如果今天因為這個都是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄的審和通過名單的所以可能有業者或民眾不知情他甚至搜尋新聞都是正面新聞搜尋官方文件他也在上面那表示說你們這個能量登錄\n253602\t279363\t現在才要再做審核那表示現在放在名單上的公司是不是都可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具那你們到底要怎麼辦呢已經講了這麼久了結果現在被媒體爆出來說這個數支付曾經被你們放在這個審核上數支付曾經就在這個能量登錄上審核通過名單在前期版他都在上面但是他卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具\n280806\t287238\t表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛那你們一直說要去跟銀行端去做這個背書去做審查我想問一下\n288414\t312021\t數位部有能力去管銀行嗎那像這樣子而且這是你們通過的這個是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面所以說實在當然依照你們的說法還合法合理的去跟銀行去做交涉銀行也覺得說你是通過數位部認證的還去通過這個國際FIDO聯盟這FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入啊你們數位部也有加入啊\n315297\t340236\t所以你們共同等於是在形象上面第一個你們有名單上有這個公司那FDI聯盟裡面數字部也獲他們邀請然後數位部也在這FDI聯盟裡面那變成好像他是個很合法很合理的公司結果他就私底洗錢所以我今天要講的是當然你們要去做徵信這個一定要做的嘛但我今天問題是說之前一直提到一件事情詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續的金流怎麼走那結果今天我在這個名單裡面\n342133\t356867\t被放上名單的公司他居然可以去涉及洗錢那是不是還有其他的未報單數位部要怎麼稽查你們跟財政部或是你們跟機管會到底要怎麼合作還是這件事情是各推各的我們現在就是在精進這個整個計劃的機制我再請署長說個說明\n358547\t376098\t那三個面向來回復委員的問題第一個是查核我們幾乎已經快全部查核了所以以後這樣出資戶這樣的會機率其實是很低的我們都要限定而且找資安專家跟法律專家去查核這是第一點第二點的話我們跟我們讓檢警調去查詢\n376838\t395552\t我們現在有一個快訊的查,市長方似乎那個訊息上的快訊快速的查詢那個可以很快的就全存了這個是第二點第三點數字會claim他他那個那個FIDO那個是錯的我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席已經確認過了那個是比較錯誤的資訊以上他們發假新聞是不是錯誤的對他們發佈假新聞是不是這個意思他其實已經邀請好像已經找他進\n406135\t412980\t拜託聯盟主席除了這間公司還有沒有其他台灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面目前我們會再跟他確認不過那時候只有這一家這樣\n430717\t448433\t那銀行端有沒有回答我啊?到底銀行端怎麼處理?他們是誰去做徵信?是你們做徵信還是銀行做徵信?還是財政部還是金管會?因為今天還是核心問題嘛。你們一開始跟我保證的。這是這個會期講的事情。說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法。\n449312\t472934\t合理的合法的公司但是實際上就沒有實際上就是你們放上去的公司5月5、6月5、6月份還在上面的公司今天9月份爆發這個被檢點查獲他為詐騙集團洗錢那你現在還把它撤掉那我現在問你們就算以現在台北商這幾間公司來講你們到底要怎麼去稽查那到底你們曾經背書過了\n474819\t475279\t委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n496733\t507825\t那12月又被騙上百億一月再騙上百億二月再騙上百億那都是通過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作那我想問一下數位部的功能你們做這個所謂的能量登錄的功能在哪裡\n515373\t529786\t委員回報一下就是銀行當然他也會有自己的集合的程序這個反而他就有一些相關的程序那我們這邊其實是因為資訊來源很大的一部分除了我們徵信以外還有電話局這邊我們跟電話局其實有密切的合作\n530467\t552143\t到時候調查局其實為了我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做集合好那這個你們提書片報告吧因為這個你們講很多次的我之前每次為了你們都跟我講會跟調查局會跟銀行會跟計畫合作但是事實證明就這件事情是無效的那最後一點時間我再問一次齁再問一件事情除了第三方支付公司之外還有一個管道這大家也提醒過很多次就是所謂超商繳費稅務管不到\n555008\t580705\t這個數位部超商講會的問題你知道這個國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到欸還有沒有說沒有收到說這個通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量能有進行能量登錄的公司合作換句話說沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司他們是在銀行端你們在銀行端這邊有處理的但是這些所謂第三方支付公司他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶有很多虛擬帳戶\n583547\t584748\t對,知道,那這已經也有處理,那請你素查說明。\n601181\t619308\t各位委員報告就是我們跟經濟部已經聯訪了就是四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平台檢警掉很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是屬於哪個跟哪一個第三方職務合作所以很快就可以把這個詐騙的訊息給他去處理這樣子所以這個條代碼這個條代碼跟某個公司對應是確實這樣我知道\n624363\t646020\t但是我的問題是說詐騙行為發生的那一刻他是要詐騙行為發生之後檢體掉介入了我才會知道這個錢這個帳戶是被騙的嗎是假的嗎那我說前端呢前端超商我在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候我需要怎麼樣認證我需要知道什麼消息我才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約\n647261\t671527\t響鐘響鐘\n671943\t696563\t今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他的機制能不能跟超商去要求或怎麼樣配合他們去審核還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放的想跟誰合作就跟誰合作現在就是這樣啊跟委員回報就是我們現在有64家登錄通過的當然超商會找這個64家他們沒有收到通知啊他們說他們沒有收到通知啊\n697436\t708227\t我們會再來跟經濟部這邊再來通知我們上次已經找四大超商那個已經cover台灣大部分的這個這個條代碼的一個代收代付這樣子\n708544\t733149\t好 這個也要拜託你們要確實執行因為這個詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕也最痛影響人民財產最深的也是稅部最該做的事情啦那這個部分也拜託也要請你們提出報告讓我們委員會瞭解到底你們怎麼樣針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係怎麼建立這個集合機制可以嗎可以好 謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長跟任性建設師鄭明宗司長鄭司長\n委員好來部長好市長好這個一開始當然還是要關切一下我想我們這新聞上事件看到了這個數位部職場霸凌案的問題我想今天市長來我覺得還是先給肯定市長你願意勇於負責相較於先前這個勞動部那位分組長直接消失不見了我想市長的這個態度還值得肯定那我想先請教一下這個市長你被指控的這些事情是事實呢還是這是你們這個內部的這個職場鬥爭\n部長當然是這樣啦\n我可以知道你要愛護這個同仁的心情而且但是這個事情是這樣之前包含總統也好院長也好都已經下令說要各單位來清查這個事情那但是的確下令之後很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料那今天這個新聞也上了檯面了\n拜託在,市長也在,我們希望利用這個機會我也不會關太久,我只想請市長簡單說明這個是事實呢還是說涉及到內部的這個鬥爭因為其實我們去講一個另外面向的確霸凌案發生之後我們也收到很多的檢舉案但是有些並不是事實,有些是內部的這個爭議所以我今天想要請市長有機會可以把話講清楚一下這個你被指控被爆料被投訴的這個東西第一個它是不是事實你認為這樣做那第二個\n這樣做的原因會不會爆料出來有沒有涉及到你們內部的這個爭鬥鬥爭的問題謝謝委員給我這個機會我想這個事情造成整個部裡面整個還有對我們部的形象的傷害深感抱歉那我會甚至檢討然後接受調查因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組我會接受調查上好市長謝謝市長請回\n市長,我還是要再次強調我們肯定市長至少今天願意出席比起不願意面對這個之前的謝憤組長好太多了所以我想後續不管他的調查結果怎麼樣本期今天還是要肯定說市長願意在這個數位部質詢的時候他願意來出席這個這個隨時被可能被問到的問題好那進到主題\n政府長我們過去常常很多次已經跟數位部溝通過到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理那之前你們跟我提說你們有這個能量登錄的問題能量登錄之後那如果沒有登錄的業者他跟銀行之間的這個金流銀行端也會去處理但是我們從這個重大的新聞看到之前這個數支付之前也曾經在這個能量登錄的這個清單上面當然先被廢止了我想問一下什麼時候被廢止了\n報告委員,我們現在正在進行基合的工作,那是不是請署長做個說明?\n謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我們在事前的話部長已經指示了以後要登錄一定要徵信那在事中的話一定要現地審查不是只有會議審查那事後的話一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核這個部分的經濟我們正在推行當中部長跟署長你看之前這個大概有第三次再第四次質詢問這個所謂第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理的問題跟後端金流的問題\n拜託說如果今天因為這個都是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄的審和通過名單的所以可能有業者或民眾不知情他甚至搜尋新聞都是正面新聞搜尋官方文件他也在上面那表示說你們這個能量登錄\n現在才要再做審核那表示現在放在名單上的公司是不是都可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具那你們到底要怎麼辦呢已經講了這麼久了結果現在被媒體爆出來說這個數支付曾經被你們放在這個審核上數支付曾經就在這個能量登錄上審核通過名單在前期版他都在上面但是他卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具\n表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛那你們一直說要去跟銀行端去做這個背書去做審查我想問一下\n數位部有能力去管銀行嗎那像這樣子而且這是你們通過的這個是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面所以說實在當然依照你們的說法還合法合理的去跟銀行去做交涉銀行也覺得說你是通過數位部認證的還去通過這個國際FIDO聯盟這FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入啊你們數位部也有加入啊\n所以你們共同等於是在形象上面第一個你們有名單上有這個公司那FDI聯盟裡面數字部也獲他們邀請然後數位部也在這FDI聯盟裡面那變成好像他是個很合法很合理的公司結果他就私底洗錢所以我今天要講的是當然你們要去做徵信這個一定要做的嘛但我今天問題是說之前一直提到一件事情詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續的金流怎麼走那結果今天我在這個名單裡面\n被放上名單的公司他居然可以去涉及洗錢那是不是還有其他的未報單數位部要怎麼稽查你們跟財政部或是你們跟機管會到底要怎麼合作還是這件事情是各推各的我們現在就是在精進這個整個計劃的機制我再請署長說個說明\n那三個面向來回復委員的問題第一個是查核我們幾乎已經快全部查核了所以以後這樣出資戶這樣的會機率其實是很低的我們都要限定而且找資安專家跟法律專家去查核這是第一點第二點的話我們跟我們讓檢警調去查詢\n我們現在有一個快訊的查,市長方似乎那個訊息上的快訊快速的查詢那個可以很快的就全存了這個是第二點第三點數字會claim他他那個那個FIDO那個是錯的我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席已經確認過了那個是比較錯誤的資訊以上他們發假新聞是不是錯誤的對他們發佈假新聞是不是這個意思他其實已經邀請好像已經找他進\n拜託聯盟主席除了這間公司還有沒有其他台灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面目前我們會再跟他確認不過那時候只有這一家這樣\n那銀行端有沒有回答我啊?到底銀行端怎麼處理?他們是誰去做徵信?是你們做徵信還是銀行做徵信?還是財政部還是金管會?因為今天還是核心問題嘛。你們一開始跟我保證的。這是這個會期講的事情。說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法。\n合理的合法的公司但是實際上就沒有實際上就是你們放上去的公司5月5、6月5、6月份還在上面的公司今天9月份爆發這個被檢點查獲他為詐騙集團洗錢那你現在還把它撤掉那我現在問你們就算以現在台北商這幾間公司來講你們到底要怎麼去稽查那到底你們曾經背書過了\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n那12月又被騙上百億一月再騙上百億二月再騙上百億那都是通過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作那我想問一下數位部的功能你們做這個所謂的能量登錄的功能在哪裡\n委員回報一下就是銀行當然他也會有自己的集合的程序這個反而他就有一些相關的程序那我們這邊其實是因為資訊來源很大的一部分除了我們徵信以外還有電話局這邊我們跟電話局其實有密切的合作\n到時候調查局其實為了我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做集合好那這個你們提書片報告吧因為這個你們講很多次的我之前每次為了你們都跟我講會跟調查局會跟銀行會跟計畫合作但是事實證明就這件事情是無效的那最後一點時間我再問一次齁再問一件事情除了第三方支付公司之外還有一個管道這大家也提醒過很多次就是所謂超商繳費稅務管不到\n這個數位部超商講會的問題你知道這個國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到欸還有沒有說沒有收到說這個通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量能有進行能量登錄的公司合作換句話說沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司他們是在銀行端你們在銀行端這邊有處理的但是這些所謂第三方支付公司他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶有很多虛擬帳戶\n對,知道,那這已經也有處理,那請你素查說明。\n各位委員報告就是我們跟經濟部已經聯訪了就是四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平台檢警掉很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是屬於哪個跟哪一個第三方職務合作所以很快就可以把這個詐騙的訊息給他去處理這樣子所以這個條代碼這個條代碼跟某個公司對應是確實這樣我知道\n但是我的問題是說詐騙行為發生的那一刻他是要詐騙行為發生之後檢體掉介入了我才會知道這個錢這個帳戶是被騙的嗎是假的嗎那我說前端呢前端超商我在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候我需要怎麼樣認證我需要知道什麼消息我才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約\n響鐘響鐘\n今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他的機制能不能跟超商去要求或怎麼樣配合他們去審核還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放的想跟誰合作就跟誰合作現在就是這樣啊跟委員回報就是我們現在有64家登錄通過的當然超商會找這個64家他們沒有收到通知啊他們說他們沒有收到通知啊\n我們會再來跟經濟部這邊再來通知我們上次已經找四大超商那個已經cover台灣大部分的這個這個條代碼的一個代收代付這樣子\n好 這個也要拜託你們要確實執行因為這個詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕也最痛影響人民財產最深的也是稅部最該做的事情啦那這個部分也拜託也要請你們提出報告讓我們委員會瞭解到底你們怎麼樣針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係怎麼建立這個集合機制可以嗎可以好 謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.699 --> 00:08.232\n謝謝主席我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長跟任性建設師鄭明宗司長鄭司長\n\n00:19.678 --> 00:44.276\n委員好來部長好市長好這個一開始當然還是要關切一下我想我們這新聞上事件看到了這個數位部職場霸凌案的問題我想今天市長來我覺得還是先給肯定市長你願意勇於負責相較於先前這個勞動部那位分組長直接消失不見了我想市長的這個態度還值得肯定那我想先請教一下這個市長你被指控的這些事情是事實呢還是這是你們這個內部的這個職場鬥爭\n\n00:49.005 --> 00:50.566\n部長當然是這樣啦\n\n01:14.178 --> 01:33.469\n我可以知道你要愛護這個同仁的心情而且但是這個事情是這樣之前包含總統也好院長也好都已經下令說要各單位來清查這個事情那但是的確下令之後很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料那今天這個新聞也上了檯面了\n\n01:34.429 --> 02:03.649\n拜託在,市長也在,我們希望利用這個機會我也不會關太久,我只想請市長簡單說明這個是事實呢還是說涉及到內部的這個鬥爭因為其實我們去講一個另外面向的確霸凌案發生之後我們也收到很多的檢舉案但是有些並不是事實,有些是內部的這個爭議所以我今天想要請市長有機會可以把話講清楚一下這個你被指控被爆料被投訴的這個東西第一個它是不是事實你認為這樣做那第二個\n\n02:04.729 --> 02:31.295\n這樣做的原因會不會爆料出來有沒有涉及到你們內部的這個爭鬥鬥爭的問題謝謝委員給我這個機會我想這個事情造成整個部裡面整個還有對我們部的形象的傷害深感抱歉那我會甚至檢討然後接受調查因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組我會接受調查上好市長謝謝市長請回\n\n02:35.597 --> 02:53.667\n市長,我還是要再次強調我們肯定市長至少今天願意出席比起不願意面對這個之前的謝憤組長好太多了所以我想後續不管他的調查結果怎麼樣本期今天還是要肯定說市長願意在這個數位部質詢的時候他願意來出席這個這個隨時被可能被問到的問題好那進到主題\n\n02:54.946 --> 03:22.631\n政府長我們過去常常很多次已經跟數位部溝通過到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理那之前你們跟我提說你們有這個能量登錄的問題能量登錄之後那如果沒有登錄的業者他跟銀行之間的這個金流銀行端也會去處理但是我們從這個重大的新聞看到之前這個數支付之前也曾經在這個能量登錄的這個清單上面當然先被廢止了我想問一下什麼時候被廢止了\n\n03:23.893 --> 03:28.123\n報告委員,我們現在正在進行基合的工作,那是不是請署長做個說明?\n\n03:30.703 --> 03:55.911\n謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我們在事前的話部長已經指示了以後要登錄一定要徵信那在事中的話一定要現地審查不是只有會議審查那事後的話一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核這個部分的經濟我們正在推行當中部長跟署長你看之前這個大概有第三次再第四次質詢問這個所謂第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理的問題跟後端金流的問題\n\n03:57.171 --> 04:12.381\n拜託說如果今天因為這個都是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄的審和通過名單的所以可能有業者或民眾不知情他甚至搜尋新聞都是正面新聞搜尋官方文件他也在上面那表示說你們這個能量登錄\n\n04:13.602 --> 04:39.363\n現在才要再做審核那表示現在放在名單上的公司是不是都可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具那你們到底要怎麼辦呢已經講了這麼久了結果現在被媒體爆出來說這個數支付曾經被你們放在這個審核上數支付曾經就在這個能量登錄上審核通過名單在前期版他都在上面但是他卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具\n\n04:40.806 --> 04:47.238\n表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛那你們一直說要去跟銀行端去做這個背書去做審查我想問一下\n\n04:48.414 --> 05:12.021\n數位部有能力去管銀行嗎那像這樣子而且這是你們通過的這個是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面所以說實在當然依照你們的說法還合法合理的去跟銀行去做交涉銀行也覺得說你是通過數位部認證的還去通過這個國際FIDO聯盟這FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入啊你們數位部也有加入啊\n\n05:15.297 --> 05:40.236\n所以你們共同等於是在形象上面第一個你們有名單上有這個公司那FDI聯盟裡面數字部也獲他們邀請然後數位部也在這FDI聯盟裡面那變成好像他是個很合法很合理的公司結果他就私底洗錢所以我今天要講的是當然你們要去做徵信這個一定要做的嘛但我今天問題是說之前一直提到一件事情詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續的金流怎麼走那結果今天我在這個名單裡面\n\n05:42.133 --> 05:56.867\n被放上名單的公司他居然可以去涉及洗錢那是不是還有其他的未報單數位部要怎麼稽查你們跟財政部或是你們跟機管會到底要怎麼合作還是這件事情是各推各的我們現在就是在精進這個整個計劃的機制我再請署長說個說明\n\n05:58.547 --> 06:16.098\n那三個面向來回復委員的問題第一個是查核我們幾乎已經快全部查核了所以以後這樣出資戶這樣的會機率其實是很低的我們都要限定而且找資安專家跟法律專家去查核這是第一點第二點的話我們跟我們讓檢警調去查詢\n\n06:16.838 --> 06:35.552\n我們現在有一個快訊的查,市長方似乎那個訊息上的快訊快速的查詢那個可以很快的就全存了這個是第二點第三點數字會claim他他那個那個FIDO那個是錯的我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席已經確認過了那個是比較錯誤的資訊以上他們發假新聞是不是錯誤的對他們發佈假新聞是不是這個意思他其實已經邀請好像已經找他進\n\n06:46.135 --> 06:52.980\n拜託聯盟主席除了這間公司還有沒有其他台灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面目前我們會再跟他確認不過那時候只有這一家這樣\n\n07:10.717 --> 07:28.433\n那銀行端有沒有回答我啊?到底銀行端怎麼處理?他們是誰去做徵信?是你們做徵信還是銀行做徵信?還是財政部還是金管會?因為今天還是核心問題嘛。你們一開始跟我保證的。這是這個會期講的事情。說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法。\n\n07:29.312 --> 07:52.934\n合理的合法的公司但是實際上就沒有實際上就是你們放上去的公司5月5、6月5、6月份還在上面的公司今天9月份爆發這個被檢點查獲他為詐騙集團洗錢那你現在還把它撤掉那我現在問你們就算以現在台北商這幾間公司來講你們到底要怎麼去稽查那到底你們曾經背書過了\n\n07:54.819 --> 07:55.279\n委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會\n\n08:16.733 --> 08:27.825\n那12月又被騙上百億一月再騙上百億二月再騙上百億那都是通過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作那我想問一下數位部的功能你們做這個所謂的能量登錄的功能在哪裡\n\n08:35.373 --> 08:49.786\n委員回報一下就是銀行當然他也會有自己的集合的程序這個反而他就有一些相關的程序那我們這邊其實是因為資訊來源很大的一部分除了我們徵信以外還有電話局這邊我們跟電話局其實有密切的合作\n\n08:50.467 --> 09:12.143\n到時候調查局其實為了我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做集合好那這個你們提書片報告吧因為這個你們講很多次的我之前每次為了你們都跟我講會跟調查局會跟銀行會跟計畫合作但是事實證明就這件事情是無效的那最後一點時間我再問一次齁再問一件事情除了第三方支付公司之外還有一個管道這大家也提醒過很多次就是所謂超商繳費稅務管不到\n\n09:15.008 --> 09:40.705\n這個數位部超商講會的問題你知道這個國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到欸還有沒有說沒有收到說這個通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量能有進行能量登錄的公司合作換句話說沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司他們是在銀行端你們在銀行端這邊有處理的但是這些所謂第三方支付公司他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶有很多虛擬帳戶\n\n09:43.547 --> 09:44.748\n對,知道,那這已經也有處理,那請你素查說明。\n\n10:01.181 --> 10:19.308\n各位委員報告就是我們跟經濟部已經聯訪了就是四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平台檢警掉很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是屬於哪個跟哪一個第三方職務合作所以很快就可以把這個詐騙的訊息給他去處理這樣子所以這個條代碼這個條代碼跟某個公司對應是確實這樣我知道\n\n10:24.363 --> 10:46.020\n但是我的問題是說詐騙行為發生的那一刻他是要詐騙行為發生之後檢體掉介入了我才會知道這個錢這個帳戶是被騙的嗎是假的嗎那我說前端呢前端超商我在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候我需要怎麼樣認證我需要知道什麼消息我才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約\n\n11:11.943 --> 11:36.563\n今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他的機制能不能跟超商去要求或怎麼樣配合他們去審核還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放的想跟誰合作就跟誰合作現在就是這樣啊跟委員回報就是我們現在有64家登錄通過的當然超商會找這個64家他們沒有收到通知啊他們說他們沒有收到通知啊\n\n11:37.436 --> 11:48.227\n我們會再來跟經濟部這邊再來通知我們上次已經找四大超商那個已經cover台灣大部分的這個這個條代碼的一個代收代付這樣子\n\n11:48.544 --> 12:13.149\n好這個也要拜託你們要確實執行因為這個詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕也最痛影響人民財產最深的也是稅部最該做的事情啦那這個部分也拜託也要請你們提出報告讓我們委員會瞭解到底你們怎麼樣針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係怎麼建立這個集合機制可以嗎可以好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.699,"end":8.232,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長跟任性建設師鄭明宗司長鄭司長"},{"start":19.678,"end":44.276,"text":"委員好來部長好市長好這個一開始當然還是要關切一下我想我們這新聞上事件看到了這個數位部職場霸凌案的問題我想今天市長來我覺得還是先給肯定市長你願意勇於負責相較於先前這個勞動部那位分組長直接消失不見了我想市長的這個態度還值得肯定那我想先請教一下這個市長你被指控的這些事情是事實呢還是這是你們這個內部的這個職場鬥爭"},{"start":49.005,"end":50.566,"text":"部長當然是這樣啦"},{"start":74.178,"end":93.469,"text":"我可以知道你要愛護這個同仁的心情而且但是這個事情是這樣之前包含總統也好院長也好都已經下令說要各單位來清查這個事情那但是的確下令之後很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料那今天這個新聞也上了檯面了"},{"start":94.429,"end":123.649,"text":"拜託在,市長也在,我們希望利用這個機會我也不會關太久,我只想請市長簡單說明這個是事實呢還是說涉及到內部的這個鬥爭因為其實我們去講一個另外面向的確霸凌案發生之後我們也收到很多的檢舉案但是有些並不是事實,有些是內部的這個爭議所以我今天想要請市長有機會可以把話講清楚一下這個你被指控被爆料被投訴的這個東西第一個它是不是事實你認為這樣做那第二個"},{"start":124.729,"end":151.295,"text":"這樣做的原因會不會爆料出來有沒有涉及到你們內部的這個爭鬥鬥爭的問題謝謝委員給我這個機會我想這個事情造成整個部裡面整個還有對我們部的形象的傷害深感抱歉那我會甚至檢討然後接受調查因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組我會接受調查上好市長謝謝市長請回"},{"start":155.597,"end":173.667,"text":"市長,我還是要再次強調我們肯定市長至少今天願意出席比起不願意面對這個之前的謝憤組長好太多了所以我想後續不管他的調查結果怎麼樣本期今天還是要肯定說市長願意在這個數位部質詢的時候他願意來出席這個這個隨時被可能被問到的問題好那進到主題"},{"start":174.946,"end":202.631,"text":"政府長我們過去常常很多次已經跟數位部溝通過到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理那之前你們跟我提說你們有這個能量登錄的問題能量登錄之後那如果沒有登錄的業者他跟銀行之間的這個金流銀行端也會去處理但是我們從這個重大的新聞看到之前這個數支付之前也曾經在這個能量登錄的這個清單上面當然先被廢止了我想問一下什麼時候被廢止了"},{"start":203.893,"end":208.123,"text":"報告委員,我們現在正在進行基合的工作,那是不是請署長做個說明?"},{"start":210.703,"end":235.911,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我們在事前的話部長已經指示了以後要登錄一定要徵信那在事中的話一定要現地審查不是只有會議審查那事後的話一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核這個部分的經濟我們正在推行當中部長跟署長你看之前這個大概有第三次再第四次質詢問這個所謂第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理的問題跟後端金流的問題"},{"start":237.171,"end":252.381,"text":"拜託說如果今天因為這個都是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄的審和通過名單的所以可能有業者或民眾不知情他甚至搜尋新聞都是正面新聞搜尋官方文件他也在上面那表示說你們這個能量登錄"},{"start":253.602,"end":279.363,"text":"現在才要再做審核那表示現在放在名單上的公司是不是都可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具那你們到底要怎麼辦呢已經講了這麼久了結果現在被媒體爆出來說這個數支付曾經被你們放在這個審核上數支付曾經就在這個能量登錄上審核通過名單在前期版他都在上面但是他卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具"},{"start":280.806,"end":287.238,"text":"表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛那你們一直說要去跟銀行端去做這個背書去做審查我想問一下"},{"start":288.414,"end":312.021,"text":"數位部有能力去管銀行嗎那像這樣子而且這是你們通過的這個是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面所以說實在當然依照你們的說法還合法合理的去跟銀行去做交涉銀行也覺得說你是通過數位部認證的還去通過這個國際FIDO聯盟這FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入啊你們數位部也有加入啊"},{"start":315.297,"end":340.236,"text":"所以你們共同等於是在形象上面第一個你們有名單上有這個公司那FDI聯盟裡面數字部也獲他們邀請然後數位部也在這FDI聯盟裡面那變成好像他是個很合法很合理的公司結果他就私底洗錢所以我今天要講的是當然你們要去做徵信這個一定要做的嘛但我今天問題是說之前一直提到一件事情詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續的金流怎麼走那結果今天我在這個名單裡面"},{"start":342.133,"end":356.867,"text":"被放上名單的公司他居然可以去涉及洗錢那是不是還有其他的未報單數位部要怎麼稽查你們跟財政部或是你們跟機管會到底要怎麼合作還是這件事情是各推各的我們現在就是在精進這個整個計劃的機制我再請署長說個說明"},{"start":358.547,"end":376.098,"text":"那三個面向來回復委員的問題第一個是查核我們幾乎已經快全部查核了所以以後這樣出資戶這樣的會機率其實是很低的我們都要限定而且找資安專家跟法律專家去查核這是第一點第二點的話我們跟我們讓檢警調去查詢"},{"start":376.838,"end":395.552,"text":"我們現在有一個快訊的查,市長方似乎那個訊息上的快訊快速的查詢那個可以很快的就全存了這個是第二點第三點數字會claim他他那個那個FIDO那個是錯的我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席已經確認過了那個是比較錯誤的資訊以上他們發假新聞是不是錯誤的對他們發佈假新聞是不是這個意思他其實已經邀請好像已經找他進"},{"start":406.135,"end":412.98,"text":"拜託聯盟主席除了這間公司還有沒有其他台灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面目前我們會再跟他確認不過那時候只有這一家這樣"},{"start":430.717,"end":448.433,"text":"那銀行端有沒有回答我啊?到底銀行端怎麼處理?他們是誰去做徵信?是你們做徵信還是銀行做徵信?還是財政部還是金管會?因為今天還是核心問題嘛。你們一開始跟我保證的。這是這個會期講的事情。說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法。"},{"start":449.312,"end":472.934,"text":"合理的合法的公司但是實際上就沒有實際上就是你們放上去的公司5月5、6月5、6月份還在上面的公司今天9月份爆發這個被檢點查獲他為詐騙集團洗錢那你現在還把它撤掉那我現在問你們就算以現在台北商這幾間公司來講你們到底要怎麼去稽查那到底你們曾經背書過了"},{"start":474.819,"end":475.279,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":496.733,"end":507.825,"text":"那12月又被騙上百億一月再騙上百億二月再騙上百億那都是通過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作那我想問一下數位部的功能你們做這個所謂的能量登錄的功能在哪裡"},{"start":515.373,"end":529.786,"text":"委員回報一下就是銀行當然他也會有自己的集合的程序這個反而他就有一些相關的程序那我們這邊其實是因為資訊來源很大的一部分除了我們徵信以外還有電話局這邊我們跟電話局其實有密切的合作"},{"start":530.467,"end":552.143,"text":"到時候調查局其實為了我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做集合好那這個你們提書片報告吧因為這個你們講很多次的我之前每次為了你們都跟我講會跟調查局會跟銀行會跟計畫合作但是事實證明就這件事情是無效的那最後一點時間我再問一次齁再問一件事情除了第三方支付公司之外還有一個管道這大家也提醒過很多次就是所謂超商繳費稅務管不到"},{"start":555.008,"end":580.705,"text":"這個數位部超商講會的問題你知道這個國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到欸還有沒有說沒有收到說這個通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量能有進行能量登錄的公司合作換句話說沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司他們是在銀行端你們在銀行端這邊有處理的但是這些所謂第三方支付公司他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶有很多虛擬帳戶"},{"start":583.547,"end":584.748,"text":"對,知道,那這已經也有處理,那請你素查說明。"},{"start":601.181,"end":619.308,"text":"各位委員報告就是我們跟經濟部已經聯訪了就是四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平台檢警掉很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是屬於哪個跟哪一個第三方職務合作所以很快就可以把這個詐騙的訊息給他去處理這樣子所以這個條代碼這個條代碼跟某個公司對應是確實這樣我知道"},{"start":624.363,"end":646.02,"text":"但是我的問題是說詐騙行為發生的那一刻他是要詐騙行為發生之後檢體掉介入了我才會知道這個錢這個帳戶是被騙的嗎是假的嗎那我說前端呢前端超商我在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候我需要怎麼樣認證我需要知道什麼消息我才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約"},{"start":647.261,"end":671.527,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":671.943,"end":696.563,"text":"今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他的機制能不能跟超商去要求或怎麼樣配合他們去審核還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放的想跟誰合作就跟誰合作現在就是這樣啊跟委員回報就是我們現在有64家登錄通過的當然超商會找這個64家他們沒有收到通知啊他們說他們沒有收到通知啊"},{"start":697.436,"end":708.227,"text":"我們會再來跟經濟部這邊再來通知我們上次已經找四大超商那個已經cover台灣大部分的這個這個條代碼的一個代收代付這樣子"},{"start":708.544,"end":733.149,"text":"好 這個也要拜託你們要確實執行因為這個詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕也最痛影響人民財產最深的也是稅部最該做的事情啦那這個部分也拜託也要請你們提出報告讓我們委員會瞭解到底你們怎麼樣針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係怎麼建立這個集合機制可以嗎可以好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時50分）謝謝主席，先請數位部黃部長及韌性建設司鄭明宗司長。"],["主席：請黃部長及鄭司長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好、司長好。一開始當然還是要關切一下，我們從新聞上看到了數位部職場霸凌案的問題，今天司長來，我覺得應該先給予肯定，至少你願意勇於負責，相較於先前勞動部那位分署長直接消失不見了，我想司長的態度值得肯定。我想先請教一下司長，你被指控的這些事情是事實呢？還是這是你們內部的職場鬥爭？"],["黃部長彥男：我先做個簡單說明。報告委員，現在就是內部在做調查中，調查結果是12月11號會出來，出來以後會請外面專家……結果出來我們一定會秉公處理，勿枉勿縱去處理這件事情，因為這件事情正在調查中，所以調查結果在目前……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我知道你愛護同仁的心情，但這件事情是這樣，之前包含總統也好、院長也好，都已經下令要各單位清查這類事情，下令之後，的確很多委員都收到各式各樣的投訴跟各式各樣的爆料，今天這個新聞也上了檯面，現在部長在、司長也在，我們希望利用這個機會，我也不會問太久，我只想請司長簡單說明這個是事實呢？還是說這件事情涉及到內部的鬥爭？從另外一個面向來講，的確霸凌案發生之後，我們也收到很多檢舉案，但有些並不是事實，有些是內部的爭議嘛！所以我今天想要讓司長有機會可以把話講清楚一下，關於你被指控、被爆料、被投訴的這些東西，第一個，它是不是事實？你有沒有這樣做？第二個，這樣做的原因會被爆料出來，有沒有涉及到你們內部鬥爭的問題？"],["鄭司長明宗：謝謝委員給我這個機會，這件事情造成對整個部形象的傷害，深感抱歉，我會深自檢討，然後接受調查，因為部裡面已經成立專案調查小組，我會接受調查，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：司長謝謝，司長請回。","部長，我還是要再次強調，我們肯定司長至少今天願意出席，比起之前不願面對的謝分署長好太多了，我想後續不管調查結果怎麼樣，本席今天還是要肯定司長在數位部質詢的時候，他願意出席，其實他隨時都可能被問到問題。","現在進到主題，部長，過去我們已經多次跟數位部溝通過，到底你們第三方支付怎麼管理？之前你們跟我說你們有能量登錄，在能量登錄之後，如果沒有登錄的業者，它跟銀行之間的金流，銀行端你會去處理。但是我們從幾則重大的新聞看到，數支付之前也曾經在能量登錄的清單上面，當然現在被廢止了，我想問一下，什麼時候被廢止的？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們現在正在精進第三方支付稽核的工作，是不是請署長說明？"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["林代理署長俊秀：謝謝委員給我們機會說明，在事前的話，部長已經指示以後要登錄一定要徵信；在事中的話，一定要現地審查，不是只有會議審查；至於事後的話，一定要會同國稅局以及調查局去查核，這個部分的精進我們正在推行當中。"],["黃委員健豪：部長跟署長，這大概是我第三次或第四次質詢問第三方支付你們到底怎麼管理及後端金流的問題，因為這個東西是你們曾經放上所謂的能量登錄審核通過名單的，所以可能有業者或民眾不知情，甚至他搜尋新聞都是正面新聞，搜尋官方文件它也在上面，你們這個能量登錄現在才要再做審核，那表示現在放在名單上的公司，是不是都有可能變成詐騙集團洗錢的工具？你們到底要怎麼辦呢？已經講了這麼久了，結果現在被媒體爆出來數支付曾經列在能量登錄審核通過的名單當中，在前幾版它都在上面，但它卻是詐騙集團洗錢的工具，那就表示能量登錄沒有意義了嘛！你們一直說要跟銀行端去做背書、去做審查，我想問一下，數位部有能力去管銀行嗎？而且這是你們通過的，是你們放在能量登錄的網站上面，依照你們的說法，數支付它還是合法合理的去跟銀行交涉，銀行也覺得它是通過數位部認證的，甚至還加入國際FIDO聯盟，FIDO聯盟不只這個公司有加入，你們數位部也有加入啊！所以你們共同……等於是在形象上面，第一個你們名單上有這家公司，而在FIDO聯盟裡面，數支付也獲他們邀請，包括數位部也在FIDO聯盟裡面，變成好像它是一個很合法、很合理的公司，結果它卻在這裡洗錢。我今天要講的是，當然你們要去徵信，這是一定要做的嘛！但我現在的問題是說：之前一直提到一件事情，詐騙最嚴重的問題是後續它的金流怎麼走，結果今天我在這一個名單裡面，看到被放上名單的公司，它居然可以去涉及洗錢，那是不是還有其他未爆彈？數位部要怎麼稽查？你們跟財政部或是金管會到底要怎麼合作？還是這件事情是各推各的？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在就是在精進整個稽核的機制，我再請署長做個說明。"],["林代理署長俊秀：三個面向來回復委員的問題，第一個是查核，我們幾乎已經快全部查核了，所以以後像數支付這樣的機率其實是很低的，我們都要現地找資安專家及法律專家去查核，這是第一點。第二點，我們讓檢警調去查詢，我們現在有一個虛擬帳戶快速的查詢，那個可以很快就圈存了，這是第二點。第三點，數位支付claim它加入FIDO是錯的，我們已經跟FIDO聯盟的主席確認過了，那個是錯誤的資訊，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：他們發假新聞是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：錯誤的。"],["黃委員健豪：他們發布假新聞，是不是這個意思？"],["林代理署長俊秀：調查局好像已經找它進去……"],["黃委員健豪：這你們也要掌握啊！它發的新聞已經是今年年中的事情了。"],["林代理署長俊秀：我們跟FIDO聯盟的主席都確認過了。"],["黃委員健豪：在FIDO聯盟裡面，除了這間公司之外，還有沒有其他臺灣現在第三方支付看起來可能有問題的公司在裡面？"],["林代理署長俊秀：我們會再跟它確認，不過那時候只有這一家。"],["黃委員健豪：銀行端的部分你沒有回答我啊！到底銀行端怎麼處理？是誰去做徵信？是你們去做徵信，還是銀行去做徵信？還是財政部或金管會？這才是今天的核心問題嘛！你們一開始跟我保證的，這是這個會期講的事情，說放上去能量登錄的這些第三方支付都是合法的公司，但事實上就沒有，實際上是你們5、6月份還放在上面的公司，今年9月份爆發被檢警查獲它為詐騙集團洗錢，結果你現在才把它撤掉。我現在要問的是，就算以現在檯面上這幾間公司來講，你們到底要怎麼去稽查？你們曾經背書過了，所以銀行也跟他們配合了，現在你們當然還在查嘛，但是還在查的過程裡面，誰能夠為這些第三方支付設定所謂的停損？如果今天民眾又被詐騙集團騙了，因為每天都在發生啊！每個月申報的詐騙集團金額高達上百億啊！所以表示從現在開始，現在是12月，你還在查、你還沒查完，12月又被騙上百億，1月再騙上百億，2月再騙上百億，都是透過這種第三方支付公司去做洗錢的工作，我想問一下數位部的功能，你們做這個能量登錄的功能在哪裡？"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員回報一下，銀行當然也會有自己的稽核程序，本來它就有一些相關的程序，因為資訊來源有很大的一部分……除了我們徵信以外，還有調查局這邊，我們跟調查局其實有密切的合作，我們會協同調查局跟國稅局去做稽核。"],["黃委員健豪：請你們提書面報告，因為你們講很多次了，我之前每次問，你們都跟我講會跟調查局、銀行、金管會合作，但事實證明這件事情是無效的。","最後一點時間我再問一件事情，除了第三方支付公司之外，還有一個管道，這個大家也提醒過很多次，就是所謂超商繳費數位部管不到。關於超商繳費問題，你知道國內的這些超商業者他們沒有收到通知說他們不能跟沒有進行能量登錄的公司合作，換句話說，沒有進行能量登錄的這些公司是你們在銀行端這邊處理的，但是這些所謂第三方支付公司，他們還是有很多虛擬帳戶，消費者直接面對的超商這一端，去超商用虛擬帳戶繳費的這些事情，超商並沒有在所謂第三方支付公司或是在所謂的能量登錄的管理裡面，你們知道這件事情嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：知道，這已經也有處理了，請署長說明。"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們跟經濟部已經聯防了，四大超商他們的條代碼都會上到我們虛擬帳號查詢平臺，檢警調很快就可以查詢到這個條代碼是跟哪個第三方支付合作，所以很快就可以處理這個詐騙的訊息……"],["黃委員健豪：這個條代碼跟某個公司對應確實是這樣，我知道，但是我的問題是在詐騙行為發生的那一刻，詐騙行為發生之後，檢警調介入了，我才會知道這個錢、這個帳戶是被騙的、是假的嘛！那前端的超商在跟這些第三方支付公司合作的時候，它需要怎麼樣認證、它需要知道什麼消息，它才能夠跟這個第三方支付公司來簽約？因為今天去超商繳費的時候，不管是遊戲卡也好，或是各項有的沒有的詐騙手段也好，我去付錢，經過這個虛擬帳戶、通過超商代碼繳費，我刷了這個錢，進了這個公司帳戶之後，我發現我被騙了，我才去報警嘛！所以檢警大概馬上找得到公司，這個是後端的事情了，我們講是前端防禦，後端是檢警調嘛！前端是數位部啊！我問說超商今天要跟某間第三方支付公司合作的時候，你們的所謂的能量登錄或是其他機制能不能跟超商要求，或怎麼樣配合、他們去審核，還是跟現在一樣就是自由奔放，想跟誰合作就跟誰合作？現在就是這樣啊！"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員回報，我們現在有64家登錄通過的，當然超商會找這64家……"],["黃委員健豪：他們沒有收到通知啊！他們說他們沒有收到通知啊！"],["林代理署長俊秀：我們會再跟經濟部通知，我們上次已經找四大超商，那個已經cover臺灣大部分條代碼的代收代付。"],["黃委員健豪：好，這個拜託你們要確實執行，因為詐騙真的是國人最深惡痛絕，也影響人民財產最深的，也是數位部最該做的事情啦！這個部分也要請你們提出報告，讓我們委員會了解，到底你們針對超商、虛擬帳戶跟第三方支付之間的關係，怎麼建立這個稽核機制，可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：可以。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-13","speakers":["魯明哲","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","蔡其昌","許智傑","游顥","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","林楚茵","劉建國","羅美玲"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00005"}}}