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{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 539.252, \"end\": 539.272, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 560.947, \"end\": 560.967, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,641 --> 00:00:11,552\n好,謝謝召委麻煩我們的黃部長黃部長那個數位任性司政司長也可以陪同\n\n2\n00:00:13,697 --> 00:00:38,943\n部長昨天發生一件國際大事應該非常清楚昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴當然最終大家是形容是以失敗告終雖然最後一次他說解除戒嚴但他認為他戒嚴失敗那過程中大家正式撇開政治的問題在實務執行上他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因\n\n3\n00:00:40,143 --> 00:00:51,635\n其實跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少如果說移植到我們國內的話也有一點點關係如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗\n\n4\n00:00:55,504 --> 00:01:20,773\n這個事件我知道那個起源跟那個因為報告委員我沒有特別去研究不過我覺得這個民主國家是這樣子啦就是說這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情因為任何的這個沒關係我們不用去評論他啦畢竟是他我師父我們講人家可能也不太好就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會我覺得都不太好啦就實務面來講\n\n5\n00:01:22,592 --> 00:01:40,998\n當他總統發布建言的時候那為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論群眾或者是讓國會議員沒辦法讓軍隊控制住國家我要講的你應該很清楚他沒有控制網路對不對他沒有控制通訊網路\n\n6\n00:01:42,418 --> 00:01:59,485\n所以他失敗了這很多因素之一但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因那假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴中華民國的總統全部要發布戒嚴那來諮詢我們速發布的意見要控制我們的網路您會建議他怎麼做\n\n7\n00:02:00,145 --> 00:02:00,705\n我們的國家政府沒有辦法\n\n8\n00:02:23,661 --> 00:02:41,334\n下令中華電信停止服務嗎?沒有,因為我們有很多所謂的……中華電信也是國營啊,它不會配合嗎?可是我們的網路有接取有太多種,不只是一類電信還有二類電信所以有分好幾種嘛,我們的網路有分兩種,包括我們現在在講國家數位任性的時候,我們就是把傳統的光纖這個……\n\n9\n00:02:43,416 --> 00:03:10,717\n光蘭去跟中低軌的衛星去做一個區隔去增加它的韌性但是在實體的電纜這個部分國家應該是很容易去做控制跟封鎖的沒錯吧也也因為能夠經營這個實體跟這個網路的也蠻多公司的所以我覺得主要是說你要封鎖要針對某一個user或某一個去封鎖在我們台灣市或是你要封鎖國外的網站某個網站完全封鎖\n\n10\n00:03:11,317 --> 00:03:38,026\n直接切斷整個網路呢整個切斷網路那就是那個會造成更多問題對啊那如果說政府下令這樣子那目標是這樣子我們要問你說這樣對不對你就是一個政府的官員嘛提供專業意見嘛當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候那分兩部分嘛一個是實體的網路嘛做不做得到實體網路目前來講因為我們實體網路經營的公司還蠻多的所以\n\n11\n00:03:39,838 --> 00:03:40,398\n那這樣子我們談數位認清幹嘛?\n\n12\n00:03:56,863 --> 00:04:18,665\n我們如果說我們談數位任性我們國家沒有辦法控制的話那何況是外部勢力我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果說介入我們國家的通訊安全的時候我們要任性嘛結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕這個就是說我們的網路我們很安全沒有問題連國家都沒有辦法中斷了那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷這樣不是有點矛盾嗎\n\n13\n00:04:19,326 --> 00:04:44,745\n拜託委員這個是主要是說我講說網路的基礎架構這個是一個分散式治理所以我們除非有就基本上要把它完全封鎖是有它的困難但是呢就是說如果將來就像剛剛講說特定的那些不當的言論就是我們要不同的方法去做這個管理那但是管理剛剛講就是說我們這樣可以從這個為什麼我們會有這個所謂的這個打詐專法就是為什麼要蹲對某\n\n14\n00:04:49,108 --> 00:05:04,207\n我先討論實體網絡就實體的光線網絡我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站是不是把海底的電纜的接收站去把它封閉它的功能我們國內的網絡就會沒有辦法運行可不可以這樣理解市長現在還有衛星\n\n15\n00:05:08,052 --> 00:05:28,760\n我現在就要對實體網路封閉之後我們有衛星因為我們也是怕說我們的海底的電纜是不是被境外的施力切斷嘛所以我們現在在討論韌性網路衛星網路那我們現在的國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式就是他可能都知道透過中華電信或是一個代理商經過我們政府的許可\n\n16\n00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:40,895\n他才能夠營業因為我們甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論的Starlink的時候因為他沒有辦法符合我們國家法令那個這個股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%對不對他沒有辦法符合比例所以說在\n\n17\n00:05:45,767 --> 00:06:06,588\n這個中低軌衛星網路的部分還是做到我們國家高度的監管嘛是不是所以說我們國家是有這個權利去廢止它的一個營運的許可包括我們發布戒嚴的時候現在包括我們的實體網路我們可能可以透過這個接收站的一個封鎖那包括我們的這個衛星中低軌網路我們也可以廢止營運商的一個營運吧\n\n18\n00:06:09,190 --> 00:06:10,492\n最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用\n\n19\n00:06:25,089 --> 00:06:42,610\n那時候他要給誰用就很簡單了對不對對可是這個我還是覺得這困難性蠻高的啦那就是說這個東西假設也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路不給誰網路這件事情我們是做得到的是不是我們只要切斷所有外面的網路的連接\n\n20\n00:06:43,251 --> 00:06:44,512\n我們是認為我們是法治國家這個事情\n\n21\n00:07:03,783 --> 00:07:23,168\n我的問題你可以吐槽我沒關係啊你可以說我不對哪裡不對嘛就是就是這個就當然就講說如果你發生這個像剛剛講就是說把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔包括衛星全部阻隔那因為海底電纜也有其他國家我們現在像進來我們國家海底電纜包括google\n\n22\n00:07:23,388 --> 00:07:37,974\n包括Amazon他們也都在拉電腦這樣所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷網路倒也不至於因為我們事實上這個網路目前部件像他們在臺灣設電腦總算還是有接收站嘛那個包括光就海底電腦其實\n\n23\n00:07:39,154 --> 00:07:58,152\n我今天在跟部長討論一下我也不是說一定說就是討論自治的問題還怎麼樣我們在討論數位任性的時候過去常常是講國家對國家我們當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候可能會因為封鎖的問題影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係當我們國家\n\n24\n00:08:00,914 --> 00:08:26,056\n今天不要講民進黨好了你也可以講說有一天國民黨重新執政了國民黨要搞戒嚴要來中斷網路的時候我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性怎麼做得到最重要的一定要開放B2C的這個軌道衛星部長會不會認同這個要是看我們台灣的法律這個如果法律允許的話當然是可以所以台灣現在目前可不可以走B2C的網路衛星\n\n25\n00:08:26,934 --> 00:08:42,857\n微圖C目前並沒有開放嗎現在還沒有開放嗎羅雷報告委員那個基本上他只要符合電信事業登記就可以來申請衛星但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分第二部分的話他經過代理以後他當然可以使用像e-master他就回到現在就是都走代理嗎他就回到客人\n\n26\n00:08:43,217 --> 00:08:58,792\n那另外一個前天有個新聞委員應該也看到了就是現在的臺客大他藉由手機可以支援衛星所以其實人民還是有擷取這網路的權利只不過要營業這樣的行為必須在我國登記為電影事業以上跟我們報告\n\n27\n00:08:59,172 --> 00:08:59,272\n委員會委員會委員會\n\n28\n00:09:20,947 --> 00:09:20,967\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2641\t11552\t好,謝謝召委麻煩我們的黃部長黃部長那個數位任性司政司長也可以陪同\n13697\t38943\t部長昨天發生一件國際大事應該非常清楚昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴當然最終大家是形容是以失敗告終雖然最後一次他說解除戒嚴但他認為他戒嚴失敗那過程中大家正式撇開政治的問題在實務執行上他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因\n40143\t51635\t其實跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少如果說移植到我們國內的話也有一點點關係如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗\n55504\t80773\t這個事件我知道那個起源跟那個因為報告委員我沒有特別去研究不過我覺得這個民主國家是這樣子啦就是說這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情因為任何的這個沒關係我們不用去評論他啦畢竟是他我師父我們講人家可能也不太好就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會我覺得都不太好啦就實務面來講\n82592\t100998\t當他總統發布建言的時候那為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論群眾或者是讓國會議員沒辦法讓軍隊控制住國家我要講的你應該很清楚他沒有控制網路對不對他沒有控制通訊網路\n102418\t119485\t所以他失敗了這很多因素之一但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因那假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴中華民國的總統全部要發布戒嚴那來諮詢我們速發布的意見要控制我們的網路您會建議他怎麼做\n120145\t120705\t我們的國家政府沒有辦法\n143661\t161334\t下令中華電信停止服務嗎?沒有,因為我們有很多所謂的……中華電信也是國營啊,它不會配合嗎?可是我們的網路有接取有太多種,不只是一類電信還有二類電信所以有分好幾種嘛,我們的網路有分兩種,包括我們現在在講國家數位任性的時候,我們就是把傳統的光纖這個……\n163416\t190717\t光蘭去跟中低軌的衛星去做一個區隔去增加它的韌性但是在實體的電纜這個部分國家應該是很容易去做控制跟封鎖的沒錯吧也也因為能夠經營這個實體跟這個網路的也蠻多公司的所以我覺得主要是說你要封鎖要針對某一個user或某一個去封鎖在我們台灣市或是你要封鎖國外的網站某個網站完全封鎖\n191317\t218026\t直接切斷整個網路呢整個切斷網路那就是那個會造成更多問題對啊那如果說政府下令這樣子那目標是這樣子我們要問你說這樣對不對你就是一個政府的官員嘛提供專業意見嘛當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候那分兩部分嘛一個是實體的網路嘛做不做得到實體網路目前來講因為我們實體網路經營的公司還蠻多的所以\n219838\t220398\t那這樣子我們談數位認清幹嘛?\n236863\t258665\t我們如果說我們談數位任性我們國家沒有辦法控制的話那何況是外部勢力我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果說介入我們國家的通訊安全的時候我們要任性嘛結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕這個就是說我們的網路我們很安全沒有問題連國家都沒有辦法中斷了那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷這樣不是有點矛盾嗎\n259326\t284745\t拜託委員這個是主要是說我講說網路的基礎架構這個是一個分散式治理所以我們除非有就基本上要把它完全封鎖是有它的困難但是呢就是說如果將來就像剛剛講說特定的那些不當的言論就是我們要不同的方法去做這個管理那但是管理剛剛講就是說我們這樣可以從這個為什麼我們會有這個所謂的這個打詐專法就是為什麼要蹲對某\n289108\t304207\t我先討論實體網絡就實體的光線網絡我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站是不是把海底的電纜的接收站去把它封閉它的功能我們國內的網絡就會沒有辦法運行可不可以這樣理解市長現在還有衛星\n308052\t328760\t我現在就要對實體網路封閉之後我們有衛星因為我們也是怕說我們的海底的電纜是不是被境外的施力切斷嘛所以我們現在在討論韌性網路衛星網路那我們現在的國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式就是他可能都知道透過中華電信或是一個代理商經過我們政府的許可\n329420\t340895\t他才能夠營業因為我們甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論的Starlink的時候因為他沒有辦法符合我們國家法令那個這個股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%對不對他沒有辦法符合比例所以說在\n345767\t366588\t這個中低軌衛星網路的部分還是做到我們國家高度的監管嘛是不是所以說我們國家是有這個權利去廢止它的一個營運的許可包括我們發布戒嚴的時候現在包括我們的實體網路我們可能可以透過這個接收站的一個封鎖那包括我們的這個衛星中低軌網路我們也可以廢止營運商的一個營運吧\n369190\t370492\t最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用\n385089\t402610\t那時候他要給誰用就很簡單了對不對對可是這個我還是覺得這困難性蠻高的啦那就是說這個東西假設也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路不給誰網路這件事情我們是做得到的是不是我們只要切斷所有外面的網路的連接\n403251\t404512\t我們是認為我們是法治國家這個事情\n423783\t443168\t我的問題你可以吐槽我沒關係啊你可以說我不對哪裡不對嘛就是就是這個就當然就講說如果你發生這個像剛剛講就是說把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔包括衛星全部阻隔那因為海底電纜也有其他國家我們現在像進來我們國家海底電纜包括google\n443388\t457974\t包括 Amazon他們也都在拉電腦這樣所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷網路倒也不至於因為我們事實上這個網路目前部件像他們在臺灣設電腦總算還是有接收站嘛那個包括光就海底電腦其實\n459154\t478152\t我今天在跟部長討論一下我也不是說一定說就是討論自治的問題還怎麼樣我們在討論數位任性的時候過去常常是講國家對國家我們當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候可能會因為封鎖的問題影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係當我們國家\n480914\t506056\t今天不要講民進黨好了你也可以講說有一天國民黨重新執政了國民黨要搞戒嚴要來中斷網路的時候我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性怎麼做得到最重要的一定要開放B2C的這個軌道衛星部長會不會認同這個要是看我們台灣的法律這個如果法律允許的話當然是可以所以台灣現在目前可不可以走B2C的網路衛星\n506934\t522857\t微圖C目前並沒有開放嗎現在還沒有開放嗎 羅雷報告委員那個基本上他只要符合電信事業登記就可以來申請衛星但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分第二部分的話他經過代理以後他當然可以使用像e-master他就回到現在就是都走代理嗎他就回到客人\n523217\t538792\t那另外一個前天有個新聞委員應該也看到了就是現在的臺客大他藉由手機可以支援衛星所以其實人民還是有擷取這網路的權利只不過要營業這樣的行為必須在我國登記為電影事業以上跟我們報告\n539172\t539272\t委員會委員會委員會\n560947\t560967\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝召委麻煩我們的黃部長黃部長那個數位任性司政司長也可以陪同\n部長昨天發生一件國際大事應該非常清楚昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴當然最終大家是形容是以失敗告終雖然最後一次他說解除戒嚴但他認為他戒嚴失敗那過程中大家正式撇開政治的問題在實務執行上他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因\n其實跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少如果說移植到我們國內的話也有一點點關係如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗\n這個事件我知道那個起源跟那個因為報告委員我沒有特別去研究不過我覺得這個民主國家是這樣子啦就是說這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情因為任何的這個沒關係我們不用去評論他啦畢竟是他我師父我們講人家可能也不太好就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會我覺得都不太好啦就實務面來講\n當他總統發布建言的時候那為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論群眾或者是讓國會議員沒辦法讓軍隊控制住國家我要講的你應該很清楚他沒有控制網路對不對他沒有控制通訊網路\n所以他失敗了這很多因素之一但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因那假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴中華民國的總統全部要發布戒嚴那來諮詢我們速發布的意見要控制我們的網路您會建議他怎麼做\n我們的國家政府沒有辦法\n下令中華電信停止服務嗎?沒有,因為我們有很多所謂的……中華電信也是國營啊,它不會配合嗎?可是我們的網路有接取有太多種,不只是一類電信還有二類電信所以有分好幾種嘛,我們的網路有分兩種,包括我們現在在講國家數位任性的時候,我們就是把傳統的光纖這個……\n光蘭去跟中低軌的衛星去做一個區隔去增加它的韌性但是在實體的電纜這個部分國家應該是很容易去做控制跟封鎖的沒錯吧也也因為能夠經營這個實體跟這個網路的也蠻多公司的所以我覺得主要是說你要封鎖要針對某一個user或某一個去封鎖在我們台灣市或是你要封鎖國外的網站某個網站完全封鎖\n直接切斷整個網路呢整個切斷網路那就是那個會造成更多問題對啊那如果說政府下令這樣子那目標是這樣子我們要問你說這樣對不對你就是一個政府的官員嘛提供專業意見嘛當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候那分兩部分嘛一個是實體的網路嘛做不做得到實體網路目前來講因為我們實體網路經營的公司還蠻多的所以\n那這樣子我們談數位認清幹嘛?\n我們如果說我們談數位任性我們國家沒有辦法控制的話那何況是外部勢力我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果說介入我們國家的通訊安全的時候我們要任性嘛結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕這個就是說我們的網路我們很安全沒有問題連國家都沒有辦法中斷了那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷這樣不是有點矛盾嗎\n拜託委員這個是主要是說我講說網路的基礎架構這個是一個分散式治理所以我們除非有就基本上要把它完全封鎖是有它的困難但是呢就是說如果將來就像剛剛講說特定的那些不當的言論就是我們要不同的方法去做這個管理那但是管理剛剛講就是說我們這樣可以從這個為什麼我們會有這個所謂的這個打詐專法就是為什麼要蹲對某\n我先討論實體網絡就實體的光線網絡我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站是不是把海底的電纜的接收站去把它封閉它的功能我們國內的網絡就會沒有辦法運行可不可以這樣理解市長現在還有衛星\n我現在就要對實體網路封閉之後我們有衛星因為我們也是怕說我們的海底的電纜是不是被境外的施力切斷嘛所以我們現在在討論韌性網路衛星網路那我們現在的國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式就是他可能都知道透過中華電信或是一個代理商經過我們政府的許可\n他才能夠營業因為我們甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論的Starlink的時候因為他沒有辦法符合我們國家法令那個這個股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%對不對他沒有辦法符合比例所以說在\n這個中低軌衛星網路的部分還是做到我們國家高度的監管嘛是不是所以說我們國家是有這個權利去廢止它的一個營運的許可包括我們發布戒嚴的時候現在包括我們的實體網路我們可能可以透過這個接收站的一個封鎖那包括我們的這個衛星中低軌網路我們也可以廢止營運商的一個營運吧\n最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用\n那時候他要給誰用就很簡單了對不對對可是這個我還是覺得這困難性蠻高的啦那就是說這個東西假設也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路不給誰網路這件事情我們是做得到的是不是我們只要切斷所有外面的網路的連接\n我們是認為我們是法治國家這個事情\n我的問題你可以吐槽我沒關係啊你可以說我不對哪裡不對嘛就是就是這個就當然就講說如果你發生這個像剛剛講就是說把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔包括衛星全部阻隔那因為海底電纜也有其他國家我們現在像進來我們國家海底電纜包括google\n包括 Amazon他們也都在拉電腦這樣所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷網路倒也不至於因為我們事實上這個網路目前部件像他們在臺灣設電腦總算還是有接收站嘛那個包括光就海底電腦其實\n我今天在跟部長討論一下我也不是說一定說就是討論自治的問題還怎麼樣我們在討論數位任性的時候過去常常是講國家對國家我們當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候可能會因為封鎖的問題影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係當我們國家\n今天不要講民進黨好了你也可以講說有一天國民黨重新執政了國民黨要搞戒嚴要來中斷網路的時候我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性怎麼做得到最重要的一定要開放B2C的這個軌道衛星部長會不會認同這個要是看我們台灣的法律這個如果法律允許的話當然是可以所以台灣現在目前可不可以走B2C的網路衛星\n微圖C目前並沒有開放嗎現在還沒有開放嗎 羅雷報告委員那個基本上他只要符合電信事業登記就可以來申請衛星但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分第二部分的話他經過代理以後他當然可以使用像e-master他就回到現在就是都走代理嗎他就回到客人\n那另外一個前天有個新聞委員應該也看到了就是現在的臺客大他藉由手機可以支援衛星所以其實人民還是有擷取這網路的權利只不過要營業這樣的行為必須在我國登記為電影事業以上跟我們報告\n委員會委員會委員會\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.641 --> 00:11.552\n好,謝謝召委麻煩我們的黃部長黃部長那個數位任性司政司長也可以陪同\n\n00:13.697 --> 00:38.943\n部長昨天發生一件國際大事應該非常清楚昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴當然最終大家是形容是以失敗告終雖然最後一次他說解除戒嚴但他認為他戒嚴失敗那過程中大家正式撇開政治的問題在實務執行上他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因\n\n00:40.143 --> 00:51.635\n其實跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少如果說移植到我們國內的話也有一點點關係如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗\n\n00:55.504 --> 01:20.773\n這個事件我知道那個起源跟那個因為報告委員我沒有特別去研究不過我覺得這個民主國家是這樣子啦就是說這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情因為任何的這個沒關係我們不用去評論他啦畢竟是他我師父我們講人家可能也不太好就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會我覺得都不太好啦就實務面來講\n\n01:22.592 --> 01:40.998\n當他總統發布建言的時候那為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論群眾或者是讓國會議員沒辦法讓軍隊控制住國家我要講的你應該很清楚他沒有控制網路對不對他沒有控制通訊網路\n\n01:42.418 --> 01:59.485\n所以他失敗了這很多因素之一但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因那假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴中華民國的總統全部要發布戒嚴那來諮詢我們速發布的意見要控制我們的網路您會建議他怎麼做\n\n02:00.145 --> 02:00.705\n我們的國家政府沒有辦法\n\n02:23.661 --> 02:41.334\n下令中華電信停止服務嗎?沒有,因為我們有很多所謂的……中華電信也是國營啊,它不會配合嗎?可是我們的網路有接取有太多種,不只是一類電信還有二類電信所以有分好幾種嘛,我們的網路有分兩種,包括我們現在在講國家數位任性的時候,我們就是把傳統的光纖這個……\n\n02:43.416 --> 03:10.717\n光蘭去跟中低軌的衛星去做一個區隔去增加它的韌性但是在實體的電纜這個部分國家應該是很容易去做控制跟封鎖的沒錯吧也也因為能夠經營這個實體跟這個網路的也蠻多公司的所以我覺得主要是說你要封鎖要針對某一個user或某一個去封鎖在我們台灣市或是你要封鎖國外的網站某個網站完全封鎖\n\n03:11.317 --> 03:38.026\n直接切斷整個網路呢整個切斷網路那就是那個會造成更多問題對啊那如果說政府下令這樣子那目標是這樣子我們要問你說這樣對不對你就是一個政府的官員嘛提供專業意見嘛當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候那分兩部分嘛一個是實體的網路嘛做不做得到實體網路目前來講因為我們實體網路經營的公司還蠻多的所以\n\n03:39.838 --> 03:40.398\n那這樣子我們談數位認清幹嘛?\n\n03:56.863 --> 04:18.665\n我們如果說我們談數位任性我們國家沒有辦法控制的話那何況是外部勢力我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果說介入我們國家的通訊安全的時候我們要任性嘛結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕這個就是說我們的網路我們很安全沒有問題連國家都沒有辦法中斷了那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷這樣不是有點矛盾嗎\n\n04:19.326 --> 04:44.745\n拜託委員這個是主要是說我講說網路的基礎架構這個是一個分散式治理所以我們除非有就基本上要把它完全封鎖是有它的困難但是呢就是說如果將來就像剛剛講說特定的那些不當的言論就是我們要不同的方法去做這個管理那但是管理剛剛講就是說我們這樣可以從這個為什麼我們會有這個所謂的這個打詐專法就是為什麼要蹲對某\n\n04:49.108 --> 05:04.207\n我先討論實體網絡就實體的光線網絡我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站是不是把海底的電纜的接收站去把它封閉它的功能我們國內的網絡就會沒有辦法運行可不可以這樣理解市長現在還有衛星\n\n05:08.052 --> 05:28.760\n我現在就要對實體網路封閉之後我們有衛星因為我們也是怕說我們的海底的電纜是不是被境外的施力切斷嘛所以我們現在在討論韌性網路衛星網路那我們現在的國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式就是他可能都知道透過中華電信或是一個代理商經過我們政府的許可\n\n05:29.420 --> 05:40.895\n他才能夠營業因為我們甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論的Starlink的時候因為他沒有辦法符合我們國家法令那個這個股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%對不對他沒有辦法符合比例所以說在\n\n05:45.767 --> 06:06.588\n這個中低軌衛星網路的部分還是做到我們國家高度的監管嘛是不是所以說我們國家是有這個權利去廢止它的一個營運的許可包括我們發布戒嚴的時候現在包括我們的實體網路我們可能可以透過這個接收站的一個封鎖那包括我們的這個衛星中低軌網路我們也可以廢止營運商的一個營運吧\n\n06:09.190 --> 06:10.492\n最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用\n\n06:25.089 --> 06:42.610\n那時候他要給誰用就很簡單了對不對對可是這個我還是覺得這困難性蠻高的啦那就是說這個東西假設也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路不給誰網路這件事情我們是做得到的是不是我們只要切斷所有外面的網路的連接\n\n06:43.251 --> 06:44.512\n我們是認為我們是法治國家這個事情\n\n07:03.783 --> 07:23.168\n我的問題你可以吐槽我沒關係啊你可以說我不對哪裡不對嘛就是就是這個就當然就講說如果你發生這個像剛剛講就是說把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔包括衛星全部阻隔那因為海底電纜也有其他國家我們現在像進來我們國家海底電纜包括google\n\n07:23.388 --> 07:37.974\n包括Amazon他們也都在拉電腦這樣所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷網路倒也不至於因為我們事實上這個網路目前部件像他們在臺灣設電腦總算還是有接收站嘛那個包括光就海底電腦其實\n\n07:39.154 --> 07:58.152\n我今天在跟部長討論一下我也不是說一定說就是討論自治的問題還怎麼樣我們在討論數位任性的時候過去常常是講國家對國家我們當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候可能會因為封鎖的問題影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係當我們國家\n\n08:00.914 --> 08:26.056\n今天不要講民進黨好了你也可以講說有一天國民黨重新執政了國民黨要搞戒嚴要來中斷網路的時候我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性怎麼做得到最重要的一定要開放B2C的這個軌道衛星部長會不會認同這個要是看我們台灣的法律這個如果法律允許的話當然是可以所以台灣現在目前可不可以走B2C的網路衛星\n\n08:26.934 --> 08:42.857\n微圖C目前並沒有開放嗎現在還沒有開放嗎羅雷報告委員那個基本上他只要符合電信事業登記就可以來申請衛星但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分第二部分的話他經過代理以後他當然可以使用像e-master他就回到現在就是都走代理嗎他就回到客人\n\n08:43.217 --> 08:58.792\n那另外一個前天有個新聞委員應該也看到了就是現在的臺客大他藉由手機可以支援衛星所以其實人民還是有擷取這網路的權利只不過要營業這樣的行為必須在我國登記為電影事業以上跟我們報告\n\n08:59.172 --> 08:59.272\n委員會委員會委員會\n\n09:20.947 --> 09:20.967\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.641,"end":11.552,"text":"好,謝謝召委麻煩我們的黃部長黃部長那個數位任性司政司長也可以陪同"},{"start":13.697,"end":38.943,"text":"部長昨天發生一件國際大事應該非常清楚昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴當然最終大家是形容是以失敗告終雖然最後一次他說解除戒嚴但他認為他戒嚴失敗那過程中大家正式撇開政治的問題在實務執行上他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因"},{"start":40.143,"end":51.635,"text":"其實跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少如果說移植到我們國內的話也有一點點關係如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗"},{"start":55.504,"end":80.773,"text":"這個事件我知道那個起源跟那個因為報告委員我沒有特別去研究不過我覺得這個民主國家是這樣子啦就是說這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情因為任何的這個沒關係我們不用去評論他啦畢竟是他我師父我們講人家可能也不太好就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會我覺得都不太好啦就實務面來講"},{"start":82.592,"end":100.998,"text":"當他總統發布建言的時候那為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論群眾或者是讓國會議員沒辦法讓軍隊控制住國家我要講的你應該很清楚他沒有控制網路對不對他沒有控制通訊網路"},{"start":102.418,"end":119.485,"text":"所以他失敗了這很多因素之一但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因那假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴中華民國的總統全部要發布戒嚴那來諮詢我們速發布的意見要控制我們的網路您會建議他怎麼做"},{"start":120.145,"end":120.705,"text":"我們的國家政府沒有辦法"},{"start":143.661,"end":161.334,"text":"下令中華電信停止服務嗎?沒有,因為我們有很多所謂的……中華電信也是國營啊,它不會配合嗎?可是我們的網路有接取有太多種,不只是一類電信還有二類電信所以有分好幾種嘛,我們的網路有分兩種,包括我們現在在講國家數位任性的時候,我們就是把傳統的光纖這個……"},{"start":163.416,"end":190.717,"text":"光蘭去跟中低軌的衛星去做一個區隔去增加它的韌性但是在實體的電纜這個部分國家應該是很容易去做控制跟封鎖的沒錯吧也也因為能夠經營這個實體跟這個網路的也蠻多公司的所以我覺得主要是說你要封鎖要針對某一個user或某一個去封鎖在我們台灣市或是你要封鎖國外的網站某個網站完全封鎖"},{"start":191.317,"end":218.026,"text":"直接切斷整個網路呢整個切斷網路那就是那個會造成更多問題對啊那如果說政府下令這樣子那目標是這樣子我們要問你說這樣對不對你就是一個政府的官員嘛提供專業意見嘛當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候那分兩部分嘛一個是實體的網路嘛做不做得到實體網路目前來講因為我們實體網路經營的公司還蠻多的所以"},{"start":219.838,"end":220.398,"text":"那這樣子我們談數位認清幹嘛?"},{"start":236.863,"end":258.665,"text":"我們如果說我們談數位任性我們國家沒有辦法控制的話那何況是外部勢力我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果說介入我們國家的通訊安全的時候我們要任性嘛結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕這個就是說我們的網路我們很安全沒有問題連國家都沒有辦法中斷了那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷這樣不是有點矛盾嗎"},{"start":259.326,"end":284.745,"text":"拜託委員這個是主要是說我講說網路的基礎架構這個是一個分散式治理所以我們除非有就基本上要把它完全封鎖是有它的困難但是呢就是說如果將來就像剛剛講說特定的那些不當的言論就是我們要不同的方法去做這個管理那但是管理剛剛講就是說我們這樣可以從這個為什麼我們會有這個所謂的這個打詐專法就是為什麼要蹲對某"},{"start":289.108,"end":304.207,"text":"我先討論實體網絡就實體的光線網絡我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站是不是把海底的電纜的接收站去把它封閉它的功能我們國內的網絡就會沒有辦法運行可不可以這樣理解市長現在還有衛星"},{"start":308.052,"end":328.76,"text":"我現在就要對實體網路封閉之後我們有衛星因為我們也是怕說我們的海底的電纜是不是被境外的施力切斷嘛所以我們現在在討論韌性網路衛星網路那我們現在的國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式就是他可能都知道透過中華電信或是一個代理商經過我們政府的許可"},{"start":329.42,"end":340.895,"text":"他才能夠營業因為我們甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論的Starlink的時候因為他沒有辦法符合我們國家法令那個這個股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%對不對他沒有辦法符合比例所以說在"},{"start":345.767,"end":366.588,"text":"這個中低軌衛星網路的部分還是做到我們國家高度的監管嘛是不是所以說我們國家是有這個權利去廢止它的一個營運的許可包括我們發布戒嚴的時候現在包括我們的實體網路我們可能可以透過這個接收站的一個封鎖那包括我們的這個衛星中低軌網路我們也可以廢止營運商的一個營運吧"},{"start":369.19,"end":370.492,"text":"最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用"},{"start":385.089,"end":402.61,"text":"那時候他要給誰用就很簡單了對不對對可是這個我還是覺得這困難性蠻高的啦那就是說這個東西假設也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路不給誰網路這件事情我們是做得到的是不是我們只要切斷所有外面的網路的連接"},{"start":403.251,"end":404.512,"text":"我們是認為我們是法治國家這個事情"},{"start":423.783,"end":443.168,"text":"我的問題你可以吐槽我沒關係啊你可以說我不對哪裡不對嘛就是就是這個就當然就講說如果你發生這個像剛剛講就是說把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔包括衛星全部阻隔那因為海底電纜也有其他國家我們現在像進來我們國家海底電纜包括google"},{"start":443.388,"end":457.974,"text":"包括 Amazon他們也都在拉電腦這樣所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷網路倒也不至於因為我們事實上這個網路目前部件像他們在臺灣設電腦總算還是有接收站嘛那個包括光就海底電腦其實"},{"start":459.154,"end":478.152,"text":"我今天在跟部長討論一下我也不是說一定說就是討論自治的問題還怎麼樣我們在討論數位任性的時候過去常常是講國家對國家我們當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候可能會因為封鎖的問題影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係當我們國家"},{"start":480.914,"end":506.056,"text":"今天不要講民進黨好了你也可以講說有一天國民黨重新執政了國民黨要搞戒嚴要來中斷網路的時候我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性怎麼做得到最重要的一定要開放B2C的這個軌道衛星部長會不會認同這個要是看我們台灣的法律這個如果法律允許的話當然是可以所以台灣現在目前可不可以走B2C的網路衛星"},{"start":506.934,"end":522.857,"text":"微圖C目前並沒有開放嗎現在還沒有開放嗎 羅雷報告委員那個基本上他只要符合電信事業登記就可以來申請衛星但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分第二部分的話他經過代理以後他當然可以使用像e-master他就回到現在就是都走代理嗎他就回到客人"},{"start":523.217,"end":538.792,"text":"那另外一個前天有個新聞委員應該也看到了就是現在的臺客大他藉由手機可以支援衛星所以其實人民還是有擷取這網路的權利只不過要營業這樣的行為必須在我國登記為電影事業以上跟我們報告"},{"start":539.172,"end":539.272,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":560.947,"end":560.967,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時3分）謝謝召委，麻煩我們的黃部長。"],["主席：黃部長。"],["廖委員先翔：數位韌性司鄭司長也可以陪同。"],["主席：鄭司長。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，昨天發生一件國際大事，你應該非常清楚，昨天夜間的時候南韓總統發布了戒嚴，當然最終大家形容是以失敗告終，雖然最後是他說解除戒嚴，大家認為他戒嚴失敗，過程中大家撇開政治的問題啦！在實務執行上，他這一次戒嚴會失敗的原因，如果說移植到我們國內的話，跟我們數位發展部的業務其實多多少少也有一點點關係。如果說以這一次南韓戒嚴失敗來講的話，你覺得他哪一點沒有做好才會失敗？"],["黃部長彥男：這個事件我知道，起源跟那個……報告委員，我沒有特別去研究，不過我覺得民主國家是這樣子，這個本來就是一個不應該發生的事情，因為任何的……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我們不用去評論他啦！這畢竟是他國事務，我們講人家可能也不太好，就像我們執政黨發文去批評人家國會，我覺得都不太好啦！就實務面來講，當總統發布戒嚴的時候，為何他沒有辦法在第一個時間控制住國內的輿論、群眾，或者是讓國會議員沒辦法到國會、沒辦法讓軍隊控制國家？我要講的你應該很清楚，他沒有控制網路，對不對？他沒有控制通訊網路，所以他失敗了，很多因素，但通訊網路沒有控制是一個很大的原因。假設中華民國的總統今天說要發布戒嚴，中華民國的總統宣布要發布戒嚴，來諮詢數發部的意見，要控制我們的網路，您會建議他怎麼做？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們是一個自由民主國家，網路是分散治理，其實以現在的機制來講，我們沒有辦法完全去封鎖，不像中國有Great Firewall這種長城整個去封鎖，我們臺灣是做不到的，所以基本上我們臺灣是沒有這個機制，也沒有這個能力去……"],["廖委員先翔：我們的國家政府沒有辦法下令中華電信停止服務嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有，因為我們有很多所謂的……"],["廖委員先翔：中華電信也是國營，它不會配合嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們網路接取有太多種，不只是一類電信，還有二類電信，還有……"],["廖委員先翔：所以有分好幾種嘛！我們的網路有分兩種，包括我們現在在講國家數位韌性的時候，就是把傳統的光纜跟中低軌的衛星去做區隔，去增加它的韌性，但是在實體電纜這個部分，國家應該是很容易去控制跟封鎖的，沒錯吧？"],["黃部長彥男：因為能夠經營實體跟網路的公司也滿多的，主要是你要封鎖，要針對某一個user或某一個……去封鎖，或是你要封鎖國外的網站，某個網站完全封鎖，在我們臺灣是……"],["廖委員先翔：直接切斷整個網路呢？"],["黃部長彥男：整個切斷網路會造成更多問題。"],["廖委員先翔：對啦！如果說政府下令，目標是這樣子，我沒有問你說這樣對不對，你就是一個政府的官員，提供專業意見嘛！當政府想要切斷我們國內的網路的時候，分兩部分，一個是實體的網路嘛！做不做得到？"],["黃部長彥男：目前來講，因為我們經營實體網路的公司還滿多的，所以我個人覺得很多困難啦！就是說也不是這麼容易，因為我們剛講在臺灣網路是分散治理、分散服務，所以我們並沒有一個中央集權去控制整個網路的流量，或是網路裡面的言論……"],["廖委員先翔：這樣子我們談數位韌性幹嘛？如果說談數位韌性，我們國家沒有辦法控制的話，那何況是外部勢力？我們現在一直在講外部勢力如果介入我們國家通訊安全的時候，我們要韌性嘛！結果現在連我們自己的國家都不怕……就是說我們的網路很安全、沒有問題，連國家都沒有辦法中斷了，那國外的外部勢力怎麼中斷？這樣不是有點矛盾嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，主要是網路的基礎架構是剛才講的分散式治理，所以我們除非有……就是說基本上要把它完全封鎖，是有它的困難，但是就像剛剛講的，如果將來針對特定的那些不當言論，我們要有不同的方法去管理，這個管理我們事實上可以從……為什麼我們會有所謂的打詐專法就是要針對……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，好啦！今天討論實體網路，就實體的光纖網路，我們有幾個海底電纜的接收站，是不是封閉海底電纜接收站的功能，我們國內的網路就會沒有辦法運行，可不可以這樣理解？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛委員的講就是說，事實上現在還有衛星……"],["廖委員先翔：還有衛星嘛！實體的網路封閉之後，我們有衛星，因為我們也是怕我們的海底電纜是不是被境外的勢力切斷，所以我們現在在討論韌性網路、衛星網路，那我們現在國內的衛星網路是不是全部都是走B2B的模式？就是它可能都要透過中華電信或是代理商，經過我們政府的許可，它才能夠營業？因為甚至包括之前大家在廣泛討論Starlink的時候，因為它沒有辦法符合我們國家的法令，股權的比例我們國內必須要超過50%嘛！對不對？它沒有辦法符合比例，所以說在中低軌衛星網路的部分，還是受到我們國家高度的監管嘛！是不是？所以說我們國家是有這個權力去廢止它的營運許可，在發布戒嚴的時候，包括實體網路，我們可能可以透過接收站的封鎖，包括衛星中低軌網路，我們也可以廢止營運商的營運嘛！國家是不是有這個權力？"],["黃部長彥男：如果一定要把對外的所有管道，包括光纖、海底電纜跟衛星都封鎖，當然就是……"],["廖委員先翔：最後就只剩下我們自己國家發射的衛星可以使用，那時候它要給誰用就很簡單了，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，可是我還是覺得這個困難性滿高的，所以這個東西假設……"],["廖委員先翔：也就是說我們國家可以做到我們要給誰網路、不給誰網路，這件事情我們是做得到的，是不是？我們只要切斷所有外面網路的連結，利用我們國家自己發射的低軌衛星，我們現在在佈置了嘛！我們就可以很輕易地去選擇我們要提供給誰網路資訊服務，不給誰網路資訊服務，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，報告委員，這個……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我說錯你可以指正啦，我問的是不是對的？"],["黃部長彥男：我認為我們是法治國家，這個事情不會發生。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我的問題你可以「吐槽」我沒關係啦！你可以說我不對，但哪裡不對嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：如果發生像剛剛講的，就是把我們的海底電纜全部阻隔，包括衛星全部阻隔，因為海底電纜也有其他國家，現在像進來我們國家的海底電纜包括Google，包括Amazon，他們也都在拉電纜，所以你說把中華電信切斷是完全切斷我們網路，倒也不至於，因為事實上我們網路目前布建，像他們在臺灣設……"],["廖委員先翔：總還是有接收站嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：包括海底電纜啦，其實……"],["廖委員先翔：好，我今天就跟部長討論一下，我也不是一定說就是討論政治的問題還怎麼樣的，我們在討論數位韌性的時候，過去常常講國家對國家，當我們國家遇到了一些問題的時候，可能會因為封鎖而影響到我們國內的資通訊的網路，但是我們從來沒有思考過國家跟人民之間的關係。當我們國家……今天不要講民進黨，你也可以想有一天國民黨重新執政了，國民黨要搞戒嚴，要來中斷網路的時候，我們怎麼來建立人民的數位韌性？怎麼做得到？最重要的一定要開放B2C的軌道衛星，部長認不認同？"],["黃部長彥男：關鍵還是看我們臺灣的法律，如果法律允許的話當然是可以。"],["廖委員先翔：所以臺灣現在可不可以走B2C的網路衛星？"],["黃部長彥男：B2C目前並沒有開放嘛！"],["廖委員先翔：現在還沒有開放嘛，對不對？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，基本上它只要符合電信事業登記，就可以來申請衛星，但您談的問題其實大概分為兩個部分，第一個部分的話，它經過代理以後當然可以使用，像Inmarsat，它就回到個人……"],["廖委員先翔：對，現在就是到處找代理嘛！"],["牛司長信仁：另外一個，前幾天有個新聞，委員應該也看到了，就是現在的台哥大，它藉由手機可以直連衛星，所以其實人民還是有擷取網路的權利，只不過要營業這樣的行為，必須在我國登記為電信事業，以上跟委員報告。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊，它是透過代理商嘛，對不對？好不好？我覺得今天跟部長討論的，在數位韌性的部分，既然是我們數發部的一個任務，我們過去都是討論國家的安全，這部分當然是講國家的網路如何不被外部勢力所干擾。另外一個部分，我們也要去討論一下民眾自主的數位韌性，當國家可能產生衝突的時候，或者是國家沒辦法保護我們的時候，我們自己每個民眾的數位韌性要如何來推廣，我覺得這也是數發部未來可以去思考的一個方向，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["廖委員先翔：再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，現在休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-13","speakers":["魯明哲","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","蔡其昌","許智傑","游顥","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","林楚茵","劉建國","羅美玲"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00005"}}}