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{\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 609.16, \"end\": 609.28, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 609.28, \"end\": 609.3, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,756 --> 00:00:27,178\n主席謝謝,麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息他昨天好像也是在住院嘛這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席\n\n2\n00:00:29,782 --> 00:00:42,019\n張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主\n\n3\n00:00:45,343 --> 00:01:09,643\n從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論\n\n4\n00:01:11,263 --> 00:01:17,028\n委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等草野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?委員有收到嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:35,845 --> 00:01:42,374\n因為我看到你們明年的年度計劃也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊,連可行性評估連計劃的這個預算都沒有。\n\n6\n00:01:47,113 --> 00:02:06,724\n那我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論你就可以直接講沒有討論那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說因為國人也是想要了解這一塊因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說現在的立法院院區可能是不服使用嘛\n\n7\n00:02:08,385 --> 00:02:33,816\n來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年113年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理\n\n8\n00:02:35,017 --> 00:02:41,220\n所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?\n\n9\n00:02:41,220 --> 00:03:01,069\n是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞\n\n10\n00:03:02,540 --> 00:03:18,975\n我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院助衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有\n\n11\n00:03:21,477 --> 00:03:44,206\n早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面\n\n12\n00:03:45,270 --> 00:04:10,385\n立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都悲觀悲大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎\n\n13\n00:04:11,670 --> 00:04:11,910\n好,來,重點來了\n\n14\n00:04:31,725 --> 00:04:49,330\n議事人員他敢比較抱歉我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講有助衛警很可憐在門口被搶帽子然後被打然後被叫囂\n\n15\n00:04:51,190 --> 00:05:12,127\n結果那助衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴\n\n16\n00:05:13,308 --> 00:05:41,222\n你不就是請鬼找要單嗎?副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎?當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的\n\n17\n00:05:41,946 --> 00:05:42,887\n議事人員的公平正義呢?\n\n18\n00:05:55,487 --> 00:06:23,615\n基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權那至於說副秘書長不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相\n\n19\n00:06:25,492 --> 00:06:42,623\n這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有\n\n20\n00:06:43,403 --> 00:06:57,871\n執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒\n\n21\n00:07:00,544 --> 00:07:15,844\n我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境\n\n22\n00:07:16,465 --> 00:07:45,503\n所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了\n\n23\n00:07:46,670 --> 00:07:51,633\n這是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來一定就只有喇叭鎖那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來\n\n24\n00:08:13,414 --> 00:08:16,777\n那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊\n\n25\n00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:47,490\n臨晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交友文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事連員幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛\n\n26\n00:08:48,749 --> 00:09:15,797\n那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說啊是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖\n\n27\n00:09:17,498 --> 00:09:38,856\n那目前那個會議室委員會的會議室不會被再破壞了應該不會啦不會被有沒有做過壓力測試目前沒有啦不是副秘書長雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼要的是立法院你們是行政人員\n\n28\n00:09:40,270 --> 00:10:06,848\n多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔\n\n29\n00:10:08,420 --> 00:10:09,300\n我們一直朝這個方向在努力謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3756\t27178\t主席謝謝,麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息他昨天好像也是在住院嘛這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席\n29782\t42019\t張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主\n45343\t69643\t從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論\n71263\t77028\t委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等草野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?委員有收到嗎?\n95845\t102374\t因為我看到你們明年的年度計劃也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊,連可行性評估連計劃的這個預算都沒有。\n107113\t126724\t那我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論你就可以直接講沒有討論那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說因為國人也是想要了解這一塊因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說現在的立法院院區可能是不服使用嘛\n128385\t153816\t來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年113年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理\n155017\t161220\t所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?\n161220\t181069\t是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞\n182540\t198975\t我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院助衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有\n201477\t224206\t早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面\n225270\t250385\t立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都悲觀悲大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎\n251670\t251910\t好,來,重點來了\n271725\t289330\t議事人員他敢 比較抱歉 我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講 有助衛警很可憐 在門口被搶帽子然後被打 然後被叫囂\n291190\t312127\t結果那助衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴\n313308\t341222\t你不就是請鬼找要單嗎?副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎?當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的\n341946\t342887\t議事人員的公平正義呢?\n355487\t383615\t基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權那至於說 副秘書長不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相\n385492\t402623\t這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有\n403403\t417871\t執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒\n420544\t435844\t我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境\n436465\t465503\t所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了\n466670\t471633\t這是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來一定就只有喇叭鎖那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來\n493414\t496777\t那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊\n502080\t527490\t臨晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交友文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事連員幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛\n528749\t555797\t那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說啊是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖\n557498\t578856\t那目前那個會議室 委員會的會議室不會被再破壞了應該不會啦不會被 有沒有做過壓力測試目前沒有啦不是 副秘書長 雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼 要的是 立法院 你們是行政人員\n580270\t606848\t多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔\n608420\t609300\t我們一直朝這個方向在努力 謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝,麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息他昨天好像也是在住院嘛這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席\n張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主\n從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論\n委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等草野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?委員有收到嗎?\n因為我看到你們明年的年度計劃也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊,連可行性評估連計劃的這個預算都沒有。\n那我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論你就可以直接講沒有討論那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說因為國人也是想要了解這一塊因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說現在的立法院院區可能是不服使用嘛\n來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年113年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理\n所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?\n是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞\n我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院助衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有\n早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面\n立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都悲觀悲大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎\n好,來,重點來了\n議事人員他敢 比較抱歉 我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講 有助衛警很可憐 在門口被搶帽子然後被打 然後被叫囂\n結果那助衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴\n你不就是請鬼找要單嗎?副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎?當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的\n議事人員的公平正義呢?\n基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權那至於說 副秘書長不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相\n這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有\n執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒\n我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境\n所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了\n這是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來一定就只有喇叭鎖那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來\n那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊\n臨晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交友文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事連員幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛\n那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說啊是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖\n那目前那個會議室 委員會的會議室不會被再破壞了應該不會啦不會被 有沒有做過壓力測試目前沒有啦不是 副秘書長 雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼 要的是 立法院 你們是行政人員\n多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔\n我們一直朝這個方向在努力 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.756 --> 00:27.178\n主席謝謝,麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息他昨天好像也是在住院嘛這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席\n\n00:29.782 --> 00:42.019\n張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主\n\n00:45.343 --> 01:09.643\n從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論\n\n01:11.263 --> 01:17.028\n委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等草野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?委員有收到嗎?\n\n01:35.845 --> 01:42.374\n因為我看到你們明年的年度計劃也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊,連可行性評估連計劃的這個預算都沒有。\n\n01:47.113 --> 02:06.724\n那我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論你就可以直接講沒有討論那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說因為國人也是想要了解這一塊因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說現在的立法院院區可能是不服使用嘛\n\n02:08.385 --> 02:33.816\n來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年113年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理\n\n02:35.017 --> 02:41.220\n所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?\n\n02:41.220 --> 03:01.069\n是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞\n\n03:02.540 --> 03:18.975\n我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院助衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有\n\n03:21.477 --> 03:44.206\n早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面\n\n03:45.270 --> 04:10.385\n立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都悲觀悲大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎\n\n04:11.670 --> 04:11.910\n好,來,重點來了\n\n04:31.725 --> 04:49.330\n議事人員他敢比較抱歉我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講有助衛警很可憐在門口被搶帽子然後被打然後被叫囂\n\n04:51.190 --> 05:12.127\n結果那助衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴\n\n05:13.308 --> 05:41.222\n你不就是請鬼找要單嗎?副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎?當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的\n\n05:41.946 --> 05:42.887\n議事人員的公平正義呢?\n\n05:55.487 --> 06:23.615\n基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權那至於說副秘書長不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相\n\n06:25.492 --> 06:42.623\n這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有\n\n06:43.403 --> 06:57.871\n執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒\n\n07:00.544 --> 07:15.844\n我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境\n\n07:16.465 --> 07:45.503\n所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了\n\n07:46.670 --> 07:51.633\n這是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來一定就只有喇叭鎖那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來\n\n08:13.414 --> 08:16.777\n那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊\n\n08:22.080 --> 08:47.490\n臨晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交友文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事連員幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛\n\n08:48.749 --> 09:15.797\n那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說啊是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖\n\n09:17.498 --> 09:38.856\n那目前那個會議室委員會的會議室不會被再破壞了應該不會啦不會被有沒有做過壓力測試目前沒有啦不是副秘書長雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼要的是立法院你們是行政人員\n\n09:40.270 --> 10:06.848\n多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔\n\n10:08.420 --> 10:09.300\n我們一直朝這個方向在努力謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.756,"end":27.178,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩我們請張副秘書長麻煩張副秘秘書長他血氧的問題他現在回辦公室休息他昨天好像也是在住院嘛這幾天身體狀況不好我都有跟他保持聯繫OK好了解謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":29.782,"end":42.019,"text":"張副秘書長我想請教剛剛延續這個楊委員的發言所以我們在上一個會期有看到是說立院之前的簽紙計畫還有在進行甚至有媒體報導講說韓院長屬於是北部為主"},{"start":45.343,"end":69.643,"text":"從過去到現在一直有討論這所謂的立院簽紙的一個計畫包括說上一屆的時候由錫堃院長是有最後選定6個地點那如果說以北部來講的話比較有可能就是空總土城看守所跟中正紀念堂那到目前為止好像又沒有任何的一個進度或進展那明年的一個相關的計畫也沒有這樣的一個安排我可不可以請教一下目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論"},{"start":71.263,"end":77.028,"text":"委員好,今年應委員會的要求,我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來那等草野協商後呢,那我們就會繼續辦理後面的相關的程序但你簽報的計畫是到哪邊?委員有收到嗎?"},{"start":95.845,"end":102.374,"text":"因為我看到你們明年的年度計劃也沒有任何的針對這個部分有要討論的方向啊,連可行性評估連計劃的這個預算都沒有。"},{"start":107.113,"end":126.724,"text":"那我實在很難講,如果說現在已經沒有討論你就可以直接講沒有討論那不然的話你會讓我們覺得是說因為國人也是想要了解這一塊因為畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡來說現在的立法院院區可能是不服使用嘛"},{"start":128.385,"end":153.816,"text":"來簡單說明一下向委員報告我們有提報像成立的機制然後還有過去選址的情況是提報草野協商所以目前是在等待草野協商的結果那至於協商後我們有在今年113年度有編列709萬的先期規劃的費用那剛剛的詢問之下我們也會辦理保留那保留到明年等到草野協商的結果之後我們會先進行先期規劃的一個辦理"},{"start":155.017,"end":161.22,"text":"所以說還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商是不是?"},{"start":161.22,"end":181.069,"text":"是另外一個部分我們在討論這個職場安全職場霸凌的案件裡面其實本席也關注到我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平因為在今年這一屆裡面特別不同是我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況是有所聞"},{"start":182.54,"end":198.975,"text":"我們的這個執政黨的委員他可以說對於準備資料的議事人員叫罵甚至搶奪立院助衛警的帽子來襲警那之前也有執政黨的委員他去搶秘書長的手中資料有搶議事人員的麥克風還有"},{"start":201.477,"end":224.206,"text":"早上4點去開門的那第一次開門的時候我們請院長說院長你要瞭解這樣的狀況不能說立法委員帶頭執法犯法結果第二次開門他直接不演了講說我沒有破壞門鎖是門鎖太好被開了所以我就進來了那這一些過程裡面"},{"start":225.27,"end":250.385,"text":"立法委員對於議事人員以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防沒有問題嘛大家都悲觀悲大嘛你要跟我攻防我跟你攻防但是都屬於立委跟立委之間可是在這一屆是立委直接去打或是去挑戰去攻擊議事人員那到目前為止我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來有任何的案件幫議事人員討回公道嗎"},{"start":251.67,"end":251.91,"text":"好,來,重點來了"},{"start":271.725,"end":289.33,"text":"議事人員他敢 比較抱歉 我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀但是議事人員面對到立法委員的一個攻擊甚至之前我就講 有助衛警很可憐 在門口被搶帽子然後被打 然後被叫囂"},{"start":291.19,"end":312.127,"text":"結果那助衛警他敢去提出申訴針對立法委員嗎那到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性他又要被針對性那到最後不了了之所以今天雖然說有法令的規定但是如果說我們的議事處我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話你還要請他自己去申訴"},{"start":313.308,"end":341.222,"text":"你不就是請鬼找要單嗎?副秘書長你可以同意如果說今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣子的攻擊嗎?當然是不行啦是那我們怎麼樣幫他們來主持公道我剛講這一些有議事人員被攻擊手上資料秘書長被搶資料那我們有沒有提出任何的"},{"start":341.946,"end":342.887,"text":"議事人員的公平正義呢?"},{"start":355.487,"end":383.615,"text":"基本上這個國會的場域裡頭我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權那至於說 副秘書長不不不請容許我指證你國會的場域是委員跟委員之間委員跟委員之間你說議事工房我今天我進廚房不怕熱我進議事工房裡面我覺得說立法委員跟立法委員之間我們要怎麼議事工房合理的範圍內我們互相"},{"start":385.492,"end":402.623,"text":"這個摩高一尺道高一丈但是議事人員不能被波及啊我今天講是說過去十幾屆來我們這第11屆嘛過去十屆來也有相關衝突但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間那個是議事攻防可是今天是我們看到說當有"},{"start":403.403,"end":417.871,"text":"執政黨的委員他認為說他人數不夠然後打不贏的時候他去挑意識人員下手把意識人員手上的資料給搶走把意識人員的這個資料給拿走甚至就破壞門窗那這樣怎麼會算是意識攻防勒"},{"start":420.544,"end":435.844,"text":"我補充報告一下當委員所關心的部分其實我們都有在做也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁立法院的所有的員工都維護到他的一個職場最好的工作環境"},{"start":436.465,"end":465.503,"text":"所以比如說我們也去研議了會議室的一個使用規則我們也去研議了相關的這個內規我們正在調整正在修改我問一個比較明確的啦我們現在這每一個委員會的門啊有執政黨委員直接就講啊太好破壞了他不用技巧不用工具他只要簡單的這樣轉一轉扭一扭他就可以他說他沒有破壞殼就打開了"},{"start":466.67,"end":471.633,"text":"這是內部鎖起來但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來一定就只有喇叭鎖那喇叭鎖是不是容易就變成是說有任何人他只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來"},{"start":493.414,"end":496.777,"text":"那這個要不要加強我們從上一次有這個所謂的開鎖盜賊"},{"start":502.08,"end":527.49,"text":"臨晨4點來開鎖然後還洋洋得意那這一次也是兩個禮拜前嘛內政委員會啊也是一樣啊本席相對來講都是早一點來啊我6點多我就到交友文化委員會我搜索委員會去簽到我那時候6點多一到的時候我看到內政委員會201裡面已經都是人啊開門啊那不是議事連員幫忙開的嘛那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖嘛"},{"start":528.749,"end":555.797,"text":"那我的意思是說今天不管任何人你開鎖就是破壞議事規則那他還會告誡你他還會怪罪你說啊是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開所以我開鎖不是我的問題啊所以我現在強調的是說今天任何人可以這樣輕易的開鎖我們是不是應該要加強我們的立法院的這個門鎖是我們已經有加強了就像剛剛委員所說的我們另外有留一個門那個門不是只有喇叭鎖我們另外安裝了另外一個鎖所以那邊是兩道鎖"},{"start":557.498,"end":578.856,"text":"那目前那個會議室 委員會的會議室不會被再破壞了應該不會啦不會被 有沒有做過壓力測試目前沒有啦不是 副秘書長 雖然輕鬆啊但是我輕鬆不放鬆啊我要的是什麼 要的是 立法院 你們是行政人員"},{"start":580.27,"end":606.848,"text":"多數少數一回事立委跟立委之間是民意的展現但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作正常運作就請從尊重保護捍衛議事人員的權益以及捍衛我們的開會場域開始做起如果說未來還有這樣的狀況的話很抱歉喔預算不給通過就是預算不合理的地方我們一樣會把它刪除喔"},{"start":608.42,"end":609.3,"text":"我們一直朝這個方向在努力 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時7分）主席謝謝，麻煩請張副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩張副秘。"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，我是不是可以先會議詢問？秘書長今天是請假嗎？"],["主席：秘書長因為血氧的問題，他現在回辦公室休息，他昨天好像也是住院，他這幾天身體狀況不好，我都有跟他保持聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，OK，了解，謝謝主席。","張副秘書長，我想請教，延續剛剛楊委員的發言，我們在上一個會期有看到立院之前的遷址計畫還有在進行，甚至有媒體報導說韓院長屬意是以北部為主，從過去到現在一直有討論所謂的立院遷址計畫，包括上一屆游錫堃院長最後有選定6個地點。如果以北部來講的話，比較有可能的就是空總、土城看守所跟中正紀念堂，到目前為止好像又沒有任何的進度或進展，明年的相關計畫也沒有這樣的安排，我可不可以請教一下，目前還有沒有在做這樣的討論？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們持續都有就這個部分在關心，那個部分是不是請總務處來做一個比較完整的報告？"],["洪委員孟楷：來，請說明一下。"],["廖處長烱志：委員好，今年應委員會的要求，我們總務處已經簽報相關的計畫上來，等朝野協商後，我們就繼續辦理後面的相關程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：你簽報的計畫是到哪邊？委員有收到嗎？因為我看到你們明年的年度計畫也沒有任何針對這個部分的討論方向……"],["廖處長烱志：因為程序上……"],["洪委員孟楷：連可行性評估、計畫的預算都沒有，我實在很難講……如果現在已經沒有討論，你就可以直接講沒有討論，不然的話，你會讓我們覺得……因為國人也是想要了解這一塊，畢竟對於整個中華民國國會來講，有人也認為我們的歷史脈絡，現在的立法院院區可能不敷使用。來，簡單說明一下。"],["廖處長烱志：向委員報告，我們有提報成立的機制，還有過去選址的情況，是提報朝野協商，所以目前在等待朝野協商的結果，至於協商後，我們有在今年113年度編列709萬的先期規劃費用，在剛剛的詢問之下，我們也會辦理保留，保留到明年，等到朝野協商的結果之後，我們會先進行先期規劃的辦理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以還是後續等待院長召開政黨團之間的朝野協商，是不是？"],["廖處長烱志：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，OK。另外一個部分，我們在討論職場安全、職場霸凌的案件裡面，其實本席也關注到，我要幫我們所有優秀的立院議事人員抱屈跟抱不平，因為今年這一屆特別不同的是，我們的議事人員被攻擊的狀況時有所聞，我們的執政黨的委員可以對準備資料的議事人員叫罵，甚至搶奪立院駐衛警的帽子來襲警，之前也有執政黨委員去搶秘書長手中的資料，搶議事人員的麥克風，還有早上4點去開門的，第一次開門的時候，我們請院長要去了解這樣的狀況，不能立法委員帶頭知法犯法，結果第二次開門，他直接不演了，說他沒有破壞門鎖，是門鎖太容易被開了，所以他就進來了。這一些過程裡面，立法委員對於議事人員，以前都說立法委員大家互相攻防，那沒有問題，大家都一樣，你要跟我攻防，我要跟你攻防，但是都屬於立委跟立委之間，可是這一屆是立委直接去打、去挑戰、去攻擊議事人員，到目前為止，我們立法院這邊有為議事人員站出來，有就任何的案件來幫議事人員討回公道嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：謝謝委員關心，其實這個部分姑且不論其他法律的規定，我們就是依照我們立法院員工職場霸凌防治與申訴處理作業要點的內容，我們的申訴案件，必須是他有提出申請，我們受理以後來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，重點來了，議事人員他敢……我覺得我們議事人員都很優秀，但是議事人員面對到立法委員的攻擊，甚至之前我就講了，有駐衛警很可憐，在門口被搶帽子、被打，然後被叫囂，結果駐衛警他敢針對立法委員提出申訴嗎？到最後不就變成是他又要被針對性、他又要被點名做記號，到最後不了了之？所以今天雖然是有法令的規定，但是如果我們的議事處、我們的立法院不能站出來幫這些議事人員主持公道的話，你還要請他自己去申訴，你不就是請鬼找藥單嗎？副秘書長，如果今天議事人員是你的兄弟姐妹，你可以同意他們在上班的時候遭受這樣一個攻擊嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：當然是不行。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我們怎麼樣幫他們主持公道？我剛剛講的這一些，有議事人員被攻擊、秘書長手上資料被搶，那我們有沒有提出任何法律的賠償要求？除了立法委員、黨團跟黨團之間，我們要求送紀律委員會，我們要求做譴責案以外，那議事人員的公平正義呢？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：基本上，在國會的場域裡頭，我們是充分尊重我們國會自律還有委員的程序權，至於說……"],["洪委員孟楷：副秘書長，請容許我指正你，國會的場域是委員跟委員之間，這是議事攻防，我今天進廚房不怕熱，在進到議事攻防裡面，立法委員跟立法委員之間，我們要怎麼議事攻防，在合理的範圍內，我們互相的魔高一尺、道高一丈，但是議事人員不能被波及啊！我今天要講的是，我們這次是第11屆，過去10屆以來也有相關的衝突，但是衝突都僅限於委員跟委員之間，那個是議事攻防，可是今天我們看到的是，執政黨的委員認為他人數不夠，在打不贏的時候，他去挑議事人員下手，把議事人員手上的資料給搶走，把議事人員的資料給拿走，甚至破壞門窗，這樣怎麼會算是議事攻防呢？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是啊！我補充報告一下，剛剛委員所關心的部分，其實我們都有在做，也希望能夠幫我們的議事人員還有我們所有的同仁、立法院所有的員工，都維護一個最好的職場工作環境，譬如說，我們也去研議了會議室的使用規則；我們也去研議了相關的內規，所以我們正在調整、正在修改。"],["洪委員孟楷：我問一個比較明確的，現在每一個委員會的門，有執政黨委員直接講，這太好破壞了，不用技巧、不用工具，只要簡單的轉一轉、扭一扭，沒有破壞就可以打開了，所以要不要換？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：這個部分我們已經做好了，委員可以看一下旁邊這個門，我們已經做了門栓……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是喇叭鎖……"],["張副秘書長裕榮：旁邊上下有那個門栓……"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你講A，你在答B，這個是內部鎖起來，但是是不是有一個門沒有辦法內部鎖起來，一定就只有喇叭鎖，那喇叭鎖是不是很容易的，任何人只要拿簡單的工具就可以進來？這個要不要加強？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有，那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們從上一次有所謂的開鎖盜賊凌晨4點來開鎖，然後還洋洋得意，這一次、兩個禮拜前，內政委員會也是一樣，本席相對來講都是早一點來，我六點多就到教育及文化委員會，即到我所屬的委員會去簽到，那時候六點多一到的時候，我看到內政委員會201會議室裡面已經都是人了、都開門了，那不是議事人員幫忙開的，那就是我們執政黨委員去開鎖的嘛！我的意思是，今天不管任何人，你開鎖就是破壞議事規則，他還會挖苦你說、他還會怪罪你說，是因為你們立法院的門窗很好被打開，所以他開鎖不是他的問題，所以我現在強調的是，今天任何人可以這樣輕易地開鎖，我們是不是應該要加強我們立法院的門鎖？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是，我們已經有加強，就像剛剛委員所說的，我們另外有留一個門，那個門不是只有喇叭鎖，我們還安裝了另外一個鎖，所以那邊是兩道鎖，目前那個委員會的會議室……"],["洪委員孟楷：不會再被破壞了？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：應該不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有做過壓力測試？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：目前沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，副秘書長，雖然輕鬆，是我輕鬆不放鬆，我要的是什麼？在立法院你們是行政人員，但多數、少數是一回事，立委跟立委之間是民意的展現，但重點是我們要維持整個立法院議場的正常運作，正常運作就請從尊重、保護、捍衛議事人員的權益，以及捍衛我們開會場域開始做起，如果未來還有這樣的狀況的話，很抱歉，預算不合理的地方，我們一樣會把它刪除。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：謝謝委員，我們會朝這個方向來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：我絕對不會盲目的認為你們提出來的預算我們都要無條件的通過，該刪除的我們還是會刪除，重點在於要維護我們正常的開會環境以及保護議事人員的安全為主，謝謝。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們一直朝這個方向在努力，謝謝。"],["主席：副秘，北檢之前曾經發生過一件事情，就是有民眾跑進去並跑到頂樓把他們的國旗換成民進黨黨旗，是有這件事情，你們可以去參考一下，就是後來他被起訴所適用的條文，我的意思是說，因為立委不是這個機關的所有權人，也不是這個機關場所的管理權人，立委是借用這個場域在開會的人，如果夜間跑進來，說這個沒有違法，還說他根本沒有違法，他是立委，這個在法律上我是完全不認同的，所以你們可以去參考我說的那個案子，其實客觀事實的構成要件是一模一樣，我以前在處理案子的時候如果遇到這個狀況，我不是說立法院，我是說如果有機關夜間被民眾開門爬進去、翻牆爬進去，其實這在法律上會構成犯罪了。如果今天以相同的事實，立法委員只是借用這個場域來開會，他不是對這個場域有管理的權限，那可以我自己晚上開門進來，這樣子合法嗎？如果公務員知悉有犯罪而不主動提出告發，這樣對嗎？所以我對這個事情還是滿有意見的，我不是要去追究哪一位立委或過去的事情，我只是說，如果是這樣，是不是把這個東西在法律上的依據為何，我們大家講清楚，從我們講清楚那天開始大家都不要犯這個事情就好，我不是請你們去追究過去某一位立委或是某幾位立委他們的行為，如果這個國家的政治人物都不遵守法律，那你要人民遵守法律，人民也會覺得不服啊！我只是依法論法，我沒有說到特定人，好，再麻煩你研究一下，謝謝。","下一位我們請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","林思銘","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","葉元之","吳思瑤","謝龍介"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11311101_00002"}}}