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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,569 --> 00:00:02,251\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長來請部長部長好,延續上一次的主題,你們數位部也好,數發部也好\n\n2\n00:00:18,342 --> 00:00:42,862\n推了很多計畫然後那個計畫的內容我上次問你兩年砸了3億要數位富能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫那到底具體的成效是什麼我請你們會後給我資料你們會後給我的資料不好意思部長我講的比較直接一點一堆官樣文章一堆官樣文章\n\n3\n00:00:44,349 --> 00:01:09,738\n我們以前啊在大學的時候我相信部長經驗也很豐富啊大家審過非常多的計畫什麼是官樣文章啊什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來內行人不要講外行話但讓我生氣的是什麼讓我生氣的事情是我諮詢完以後結果你們數位部很老的啊很老的啊\n\n4\n00:01:10,892 --> 00:01:39,320\n處理的方式這個計畫點擊率慘不能讀乾脆把它遮掩掉這個是誰下的決定啊是部長下令的嗎那個報告員那個這是他們那個在跟我報告的時候他是說我們不好意思一個問題一個問題第一個誰下令把它拿掉的是我們的內部人員在你們內部人員權力這麼大喔那當然是有跟我報告但是我所以你同意是嗎\n\n5\n00:01:40,481 --> 00:02:08,977\n我同意是因為那個這個因為我們有4000多個資訊那當然就是我們8有超過8萬人次來來來來4000多個資訊有超過8萬次8萬人次好8萬人次吧那平均每一個資訊多少人次數學沒有那麼難啊4000多個資訊有8萬人次但是這個報告委員這個沒辦法平均因為有些訊息很多人想看那有些人看的人就比較沒有啦不要講空的啦\n\n6\n00:02:10,967 --> 00:02:29,039\n我上次這個點擊率慘不能賭嘛啊你們處理問題的方式是什麼不是解決問題啊是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊點擊人數直接拿掉掩耳盜鈴啊你們後來說有4000多個頁面4000多個資訊那總點擊率是8萬多嘛那我就問你嘛一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少\n\n7\n00:02:39,574 --> 00:02:59,684\n平均是多少?就20次嘛!這個數學有這麼困難嗎?不是這個報告委員這個因為4000多個頁面有的可能會有破萬的點擊有的可能只有幾個沒有錯那沒有關係啊哪一個點擊率好哪一個點擊率不好老老實實的呈現出來給大家看有什麼問題啊\n\n8\n00:03:00,965 --> 00:03:19,143\n奇怪耶!民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊?是開放政府耶!是公開透明耶!這個符合開放政府的理念嗎?這個符合公開透明的理念嗎?還是點擊率不好?慘不忍睹?\n\n9\n00:03:20,024 --> 00:03:47,020\n最快的方式是什麼直接點擊率把它刪掉讓大家不要看我們有一個總體點擊率報告委員這個上次看到這個number報告我剛講8萬人支持我們以為我們是10月20幾號再上去沒有關係啊那你就把它放上去嘛半年以後我們再看一次啊一年以後再看一次啊你書發布可以開記者會可以發新聞稿做各式各樣的澄清嘛\n\n10\n00:03:48,321 --> 00:04:13,276\n所以我們上去的時間比較短所以這個數字可能比較難看我們相信半年以後一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升能夠好好的擴大我們的引法族跟社會的連結各項活動各項計畫沉積斐然請社會大眾拭目以待一個有信心的政府\n\n11\n00:04:14,036 --> 00:04:30,541\n一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎?部長我有沒有說錯?那個謝謝委員的指導那我想這個其實很簡單那如果委員認為這個數字很重要我們就再把它放回去好把它放回去齁我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗我老實跟你講啦為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬\n\n12\n00:04:37,653 --> 00:04:59,858\n點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動真的要計算KPI是什麼真的要計算KPI是說我投了這幾億下去做了這些事情我實際產出的output是什麼所以我實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個\n\n13\n00:05:01,451 --> 00:05:19,367\n而增加了多少這個才是實際的Major的方式嘛但問題是什麼但問題是說有點幾並不代表什麼並不代表有趣但是什麼如果連點都不點的話代表他的效益我可以很確定的講是ZERO\n\n14\n00:05:20,359 --> 00:05:46,806\n是零嘛你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外到那個空間到那個地點參與那個活動的你們進一步去調查請問你來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼你才有辦法去major你這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼嘛\n\n15\n00:05:47,842 --> 00:06:06,880\n這個是一個非常簡單的道理我沒有辦法理解啦數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理但是我上次是善意跟部長講請你回去了解這些計畫因為如果實際上面執行的成果是這個樣子你會很難說服很多的委員\n\n16\n00:06:07,981 --> 00:06:35,836\n在明年繼續支持這個計畫相同的狀況一樣我代部長看我上次問說次世代行動創新應用負能發展計畫兩年兩億一千三百萬到底在做什麼因為我為什麼會有這個困惑因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊這不是我講的是審查委員講的\n\n17\n00:06:37,352 --> 00:07:04,625\n然後呢你們給我的書面回覆我不知道部長有沒有看你說啊這裡面有什麼有智慧教育也有智慧醫療但人家在說的是什麼你的智慧教育智慧醫療跟教育部的校園五級示範教室跟學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同跟衛福部導入五級級智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同\n\n18\n00:07:05,546 --> 00:07:28,308\n因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了我拜讀完了以後不好意思我跟部長講我陷入了極度的迷惘到底有什麼不一樣不同的部會用計畫當名目找一些fancy的詞幾億幾億這樣的花我們的政府很有錢那個主席已經站起來我拜託部長\n\n19\n00:07:29,386 --> 00:07:46,413\n我再給你們一次機會我再給你們一次機會這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣你們第一次送來給我的書面回覆我看完了但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣\n\n20\n00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:47,780\n好謝謝黃國昌\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n569\t2251\t謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長來請部長部長好,延續上一次的主題,你們數位部也好,數發部也好\n18342\t42862\t推了很多計畫然後那個計畫的內容我上次問你兩年砸了3億要數位富能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫那到底具體的成效是什麼我請你們會後給我資料你們會後給我的資料不好意思部長我講的比較直接一點一堆官樣文章一堆官樣文章\n44349\t69738\t我們以前啊在大學的時候我相信部長經驗也很豐富啊大家審過非常多的計畫什麼是官樣文章啊什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來內行人不要講外行話但讓我生氣的是什麼讓我生氣的事情是我諮詢完以後結果你們數位部很老的啊很老的啊\n70892\t99320\t處理的方式這個計畫點擊率慘不能讀乾脆把它遮掩掉這個是誰下的決定啊是部長下令的嗎那個報告員那個這是他們那個在跟我報告的時候他是說我們不好意思一個問題一個問題第一個誰下令把它拿掉的是我們的內部人員在你們內部人員權力這麼大喔那當然是有跟我報告但是我所以你同意是嗎\n100481\t128977\t我同意是因為那個這個因為我們有4000多個資訊那當然就是我們8有超過8萬人次來來來來4000多個資訊有超過8萬次8萬人次好8萬人次吧那平均每一個資訊多少人次數學沒有那麼難啊4000多個資訊有8萬人次但是這個報告委員這個沒辦法平均因為有些訊息很多人想看那有些人看的人就比較沒有啦不要講空的啦\n130967\t149039\t我上次這個點擊率慘不能賭嘛啊你們處理問題的方式是什麼不是解決問題啊是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊點擊人數直接拿掉掩耳盜鈴啊你們後來說有4000多個頁面4000多個資訊那總點擊率是8萬多嘛那我就問你嘛一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少\n159574\t179684\t平均是多少?就20次嘛!這個數學有這麼困難嗎?不是 這個報告委員 這個因為4000多個頁面 有的可能會有破萬的點擊 有的可能只有幾個沒有錯 那沒有關係啊哪一個點擊率好 哪一個點擊率不好老老實實的呈現出來給大家看 有什麼問題啊\n180965\t199143\t奇怪耶!民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊?是開放政府耶!是公開透明耶!這個符合開放政府的理念嗎?這個符合公開透明的理念嗎?還是點擊率不好?慘不忍睹?\n200024\t227020\t最快的方式是什麼直接點擊率把它刪掉讓大家不要看我們有一個總體點擊率報告委員這個上次看到這個number報告我剛講8萬人支持我們以為我們是10月20幾號再上去沒有關係啊那你就把它放上去嘛半年以後我們再看一次啊一年以後再看一次啊你書發布可以開記者會可以發新聞稿做各式各樣的澄清嘛\n228321\t253276\t所以我們上去的時間比較短所以這個數字可能比較難看我們相信半年以後一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升能夠好好的擴大我們的引法族跟社會的連結各項活動各項計畫沉積斐然請社會大眾拭目以待一個有信心的政府\n254036\t270541\t一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎?部長我有沒有說錯?那個謝謝委員的指導那我想這個其實很簡單那如果委員認為這個數字很重要我們就再把它放回去好把它放回去齁我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗我老實跟你講啦為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬\n277653\t299858\t點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動真的要計算KPI是什麼真的要計算KPI是說我投了這幾億下去做了這些事情我實際產出的output是什麼所以我實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個\n301451\t319367\t而增加了多少這個才是實際的Major的方式嘛但問題是什麼但問題是說有點幾並不代表什麼並不代表有趣但是什麼如果連點都不點的話代表他的效益我可以很確定的講是ZERO\n320359\t346806\t是零嘛你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外到那個空間到那個地點參與那個活動的你們進一步去調查請問你來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼你才有辦法去major你這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼嘛\n347842\t366880\t這個是一個非常簡單的道理我沒有辦法理解啦數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理但是我上次是善意跟部長講請你回去了解這些計畫因為如果實際上面執行的成果是這個樣子你會很難說服很多的委員\n367981\t395836\t在明年繼續支持這個計畫相同的狀況一樣我代部長看我上次問說次世代行動創新應用負能發展計畫兩年兩億一千三百萬到底在做什麼因為我為什麼會有這個困惑因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊這不是我講的是審查委員講的\n397352\t424625\t然後呢你們給我的書面回覆我不知道部長有沒有看你說啊這裡面有什麼有智慧教育也有智慧醫療但人家在說的是什麼你的智慧教育智慧醫療跟教育部的校園五級示範教室跟學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同跟衛福部導入五級級智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同\n425546\t448308\t因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了我拜讀完了以後不好意思我跟部長講我陷入了極度的迷惘到底有什麼不一樣不同的部會用計畫當名目找一些fancy的詞幾億幾億這樣的花我們的政府很有錢那個主席已經站起來我拜託部長\n449386\t466413\t我再給你們一次機會我再給你們一次機會這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣你們第一次送來給我的書面回覆我看完了但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣\n467540\t467780\t好 謝謝黃國昌\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長來請部長部長好,延續上一次的主題,你們數位部也好,數發部也好\n推了很多計畫然後那個計畫的內容我上次問你兩年砸了3億要數位富能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫那到底具體的成效是什麼我請你們會後給我資料你們會後給我的資料不好意思部長我講的比較直接一點一堆官樣文章一堆官樣文章\n我們以前啊在大學的時候我相信部長經驗也很豐富啊大家審過非常多的計畫什麼是官樣文章啊什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來內行人不要講外行話但讓我生氣的是什麼讓我生氣的事情是我諮詢完以後結果你們數位部很老的啊很老的啊\n處理的方式這個計畫點擊率慘不能讀乾脆把它遮掩掉這個是誰下的決定啊是部長下令的嗎那個報告員那個這是他們那個在跟我報告的時候他是說我們不好意思一個問題一個問題第一個誰下令把它拿掉的是我們的內部人員在你們內部人員權力這麼大喔那當然是有跟我報告但是我所以你同意是嗎\n我同意是因為那個這個因為我們有4000多個資訊那當然就是我們8有超過8萬人次來來來來4000多個資訊有超過8萬次8萬人次好8萬人次吧那平均每一個資訊多少人次數學沒有那麼難啊4000多個資訊有8萬人次但是這個報告委員這個沒辦法平均因為有些訊息很多人想看那有些人看的人就比較沒有啦不要講空的啦\n我上次這個點擊率慘不能賭嘛啊你們處理問題的方式是什麼不是解決問題啊是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊點擊人數直接拿掉掩耳盜鈴啊你們後來說有4000多個頁面4000多個資訊那總點擊率是8萬多嘛那我就問你嘛一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少\n平均是多少?就20次嘛!這個數學有這麼困難嗎?不是 這個報告委員 這個因為4000多個頁面 有的可能會有破萬的點擊 有的可能只有幾個沒有錯 那沒有關係啊哪一個點擊率好 哪一個點擊率不好老老實實的呈現出來給大家看 有什麼問題啊\n奇怪耶!民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊?是開放政府耶!是公開透明耶!這個符合開放政府的理念嗎?這個符合公開透明的理念嗎?還是點擊率不好?慘不忍睹?\n最快的方式是什麼直接點擊率把它刪掉讓大家不要看我們有一個總體點擊率報告委員這個上次看到這個number報告我剛講8萬人支持我們以為我們是10月20幾號再上去沒有關係啊那你就把它放上去嘛半年以後我們再看一次啊一年以後再看一次啊你書發布可以開記者會可以發新聞稿做各式各樣的澄清嘛\n所以我們上去的時間比較短所以這個數字可能比較難看我們相信半年以後一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升能夠好好的擴大我們的引法族跟社會的連結各項活動各項計畫沉積斐然請社會大眾拭目以待一個有信心的政府\n一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎?部長我有沒有說錯?那個謝謝委員的指導那我想這個其實很簡單那如果委員認為這個數字很重要我們就再把它放回去好把它放回去齁我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗我老實跟你講啦為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬\n點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動真的要計算KPI是什麼真的要計算KPI是說我投了這幾億下去做了這些事情我實際產出的output是什麼所以我實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個\n而增加了多少這個才是實際的Major的方式嘛但問題是什麼但問題是說有點幾並不代表什麼並不代表有趣但是什麼如果連點都不點的話代表他的效益我可以很確定的講是ZERO\n是零嘛你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外到那個空間到那個地點參與那個活動的你們進一步去調查請問你來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼你才有辦法去major你這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼嘛\n這個是一個非常簡單的道理我沒有辦法理解啦數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理但是我上次是善意跟部長講請你回去了解這些計畫因為如果實際上面執行的成果是這個樣子你會很難說服很多的委員\n在明年繼續支持這個計畫相同的狀況一樣我代部長看我上次問說次世代行動創新應用負能發展計畫兩年兩億一千三百萬到底在做什麼因為我為什麼會有這個困惑因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊這不是我講的是審查委員講的\n然後呢你們給我的書面回覆我不知道部長有沒有看你說啊這裡面有什麼有智慧教育也有智慧醫療但人家在說的是什麼你的智慧教育智慧醫療跟教育部的校園五級示範教室跟學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同跟衛福部導入五級級智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同\n因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了我拜讀完了以後不好意思我跟部長講我陷入了極度的迷惘到底有什麼不一樣不同的部會用計畫當名目找一些fancy的詞幾億幾億這樣的花我們的政府很有錢那個主席已經站起來我拜託部長\n我再給你們一次機會我再給你們一次機會這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣你們第一次送來給我的書面回覆我看完了但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣\n好 謝謝黃國昌\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.569 --> 00:02.251\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長來請部長部長好,延續上一次的主題,你們數位部也好,數發部也好\n\n00:18.342 --> 00:42.862\n推了很多計畫然後那個計畫的內容我上次問你兩年砸了3億要數位富能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫那到底具體的成效是什麼我請你們會後給我資料你們會後給我的資料不好意思部長我講的比較直接一點一堆官樣文章一堆官樣文章\n\n00:44.349 --> 01:09.738\n我們以前啊在大學的時候我相信部長經驗也很豐富啊大家審過非常多的計畫什麼是官樣文章啊什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來內行人不要講外行話但讓我生氣的是什麼讓我生氣的事情是我諮詢完以後結果你們數位部很老的啊很老的啊\n\n01:10.892 --> 01:39.320\n處理的方式這個計畫點擊率慘不能讀乾脆把它遮掩掉這個是誰下的決定啊是部長下令的嗎那個報告員那個這是他們那個在跟我報告的時候他是說我們不好意思一個問題一個問題第一個誰下令把它拿掉的是我們的內部人員在你們內部人員權力這麼大喔那當然是有跟我報告但是我所以你同意是嗎\n\n01:40.481 --> 02:08.977\n我同意是因為那個這個因為我們有4000多個資訊那當然就是我們8有超過8萬人次來來來來4000多個資訊有超過8萬次8萬人次好8萬人次吧那平均每一個資訊多少人次數學沒有那麼難啊4000多個資訊有8萬人次但是這個報告委員這個沒辦法平均因為有些訊息很多人想看那有些人看的人就比較沒有啦不要講空的啦\n\n02:10.967 --> 02:29.039\n我上次這個點擊率慘不能賭嘛啊你們處理問題的方式是什麼不是解決問題啊是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊點擊人數直接拿掉掩耳盜鈴啊你們後來說有4000多個頁面4000多個資訊那總點擊率是8萬多嘛那我就問你嘛一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少\n\n02:39.574 --> 02:59.684\n平均是多少?就20次嘛!這個數學有這麼困難嗎?不是這個報告委員這個因為4000多個頁面有的可能會有破萬的點擊有的可能只有幾個沒有錯那沒有關係啊哪一個點擊率好哪一個點擊率不好老老實實的呈現出來給大家看有什麼問題啊\n\n03:00.965 --> 03:19.143\n奇怪耶!民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊?是開放政府耶!是公開透明耶!這個符合開放政府的理念嗎?這個符合公開透明的理念嗎?還是點擊率不好?慘不忍睹?\n\n03:20.024 --> 03:47.020\n最快的方式是什麼直接點擊率把它刪掉讓大家不要看我們有一個總體點擊率報告委員這個上次看到這個number報告我剛講8萬人支持我們以為我們是10月20幾號再上去沒有關係啊那你就把它放上去嘛半年以後我們再看一次啊一年以後再看一次啊你書發布可以開記者會可以發新聞稿做各式各樣的澄清嘛\n\n03:48.321 --> 04:13.276\n所以我們上去的時間比較短所以這個數字可能比較難看我們相信半年以後一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升能夠好好的擴大我們的引法族跟社會的連結各項活動各項計畫沉積斐然請社會大眾拭目以待一個有信心的政府\n\n04:14.036 --> 04:30.541\n一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎?部長我有沒有說錯?那個謝謝委員的指導那我想這個其實很簡單那如果委員認為這個數字很重要我們就再把它放回去好把它放回去齁我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗我老實跟你講啦為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬\n\n04:37.653 --> 04:59.858\n點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動真的要計算KPI是什麼真的要計算KPI是說我投了這幾億下去做了這些事情我實際產出的output是什麼所以我實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個\n\n05:01.451 --> 05:19.367\n而增加了多少這個才是實際的Major的方式嘛但問題是什麼但問題是說有點幾並不代表什麼並不代表有趣但是什麼如果連點都不點的話代表他的效益我可以很確定的講是ZERO\n\n05:20.359 --> 05:46.806\n是零嘛你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外到那個空間到那個地點參與那個活動的你們進一步去調查請問你來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼你才有辦法去major你這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼嘛\n\n05:47.842 --> 06:06.880\n這個是一個非常簡單的道理我沒有辦法理解啦數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理但是我上次是善意跟部長講請你回去了解這些計畫因為如果實際上面執行的成果是這個樣子你會很難說服很多的委員\n\n06:07.981 --> 06:35.836\n在明年繼續支持這個計畫相同的狀況一樣我代部長看我上次問說次世代行動創新應用負能發展計畫兩年兩億一千三百萬到底在做什麼因為我為什麼會有這個困惑因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊這不是我講的是審查委員講的\n\n06:37.352 --> 07:04.625\n然後呢你們給我的書面回覆我不知道部長有沒有看你說啊這裡面有什麼有智慧教育也有智慧醫療但人家在說的是什麼你的智慧教育智慧醫療跟教育部的校園五級示範教室跟學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同跟衛福部導入五級級智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同\n\n07:05.546 --> 07:28.308\n因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了我拜讀完了以後不好意思我跟部長講我陷入了極度的迷惘到底有什麼不一樣不同的部會用計畫當名目找一些fancy的詞幾億幾億這樣的花我們的政府很有錢那個主席已經站起來我拜託部長\n\n07:29.386 --> 07:46.413\n我再給你們一次機會我再給你們一次機會這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣你們第一次送來給我的書面回覆我看完了但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣\n\n07:47.540 --> 07:47.780\n好謝謝黃國昌\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.569,"end":2.251,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長來請部長部長好,延續上一次的主題,你們數位部也好,數發部也好"},{"start":18.342,"end":42.862,"text":"推了很多計畫然後那個計畫的內容我上次問你兩年砸了3億要數位富能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫那到底具體的成效是什麼我請你們會後給我資料你們會後給我的資料不好意思部長我講的比較直接一點一堆官樣文章一堆官樣文章"},{"start":44.349,"end":69.738,"text":"我們以前啊在大學的時候我相信部長經驗也很豐富啊大家審過非常多的計畫什麼是官樣文章啊什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來內行人不要講外行話但讓我生氣的是什麼讓我生氣的事情是我諮詢完以後結果你們數位部很老的啊很老的啊"},{"start":70.892,"end":99.32,"text":"處理的方式這個計畫點擊率慘不能讀乾脆把它遮掩掉這個是誰下的決定啊是部長下令的嗎那個報告員那個這是他們那個在跟我報告的時候他是說我們不好意思一個問題一個問題第一個誰下令把它拿掉的是我們的內部人員在你們內部人員權力這麼大喔那當然是有跟我報告但是我所以你同意是嗎"},{"start":100.481,"end":128.977,"text":"我同意是因為那個這個因為我們有4000多個資訊那當然就是我們8有超過8萬人次來來來來4000多個資訊有超過8萬次8萬人次好8萬人次吧那平均每一個資訊多少人次數學沒有那麼難啊4000多個資訊有8萬人次但是這個報告委員這個沒辦法平均因為有些訊息很多人想看那有些人看的人就比較沒有啦不要講空的啦"},{"start":130.967,"end":149.039,"text":"我上次這個點擊率慘不能賭嘛啊你們處理問題的方式是什麼不是解決問題啊是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊點擊人數直接拿掉掩耳盜鈴啊你們後來說有4000多個頁面4000多個資訊那總點擊率是8萬多嘛那我就問你嘛一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少"},{"start":159.574,"end":179.684,"text":"平均是多少?就20次嘛!這個數學有這麼困難嗎?不是 這個報告委員 這個因為4000多個頁面 有的可能會有破萬的點擊 有的可能只有幾個沒有錯 那沒有關係啊哪一個點擊率好 哪一個點擊率不好老老實實的呈現出來給大家看 有什麼問題啊"},{"start":180.965,"end":199.143,"text":"奇怪耶!民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊?是開放政府耶!是公開透明耶!這個符合開放政府的理念嗎?這個符合公開透明的理念嗎?還是點擊率不好?慘不忍睹?"},{"start":200.024,"end":227.02,"text":"最快的方式是什麼直接點擊率把它刪掉讓大家不要看我們有一個總體點擊率報告委員這個上次看到這個number報告我剛講8萬人支持我們以為我們是10月20幾號再上去沒有關係啊那你就把它放上去嘛半年以後我們再看一次啊一年以後再看一次啊你書發布可以開記者會可以發新聞稿做各式各樣的澄清嘛"},{"start":228.321,"end":253.276,"text":"所以我們上去的時間比較短所以這個數字可能比較難看我們相信半年以後一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升能夠好好的擴大我們的引法族跟社會的連結各項活動各項計畫沉積斐然請社會大眾拭目以待一個有信心的政府"},{"start":254.036,"end":270.541,"text":"一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎?部長我有沒有說錯?那個謝謝委員的指導那我想這個其實很簡單那如果委員認為這個數字很重要我們就再把它放回去好把它放回去齁我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗我老實跟你講啦為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬"},{"start":277.653,"end":299.858,"text":"點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動真的要計算KPI是什麼真的要計算KPI是說我投了這幾億下去做了這些事情我實際產出的output是什麼所以我實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個"},{"start":301.451,"end":319.367,"text":"而增加了多少這個才是實際的Major的方式嘛但問題是什麼但問題是說有點幾並不代表什麼並不代表有趣但是什麼如果連點都不點的話代表他的效益我可以很確定的講是ZERO"},{"start":320.359,"end":346.806,"text":"是零嘛你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外到那個空間到那個地點參與那個活動的你們進一步去調查請問你來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼你才有辦法去major你這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼嘛"},{"start":347.842,"end":366.88,"text":"這個是一個非常簡單的道理我沒有辦法理解啦數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理但是我上次是善意跟部長講請你回去了解這些計畫因為如果實際上面執行的成果是這個樣子你會很難說服很多的委員"},{"start":367.981,"end":395.836,"text":"在明年繼續支持這個計畫相同的狀況一樣我代部長看我上次問說次世代行動創新應用負能發展計畫兩年兩億一千三百萬到底在做什麼因為我為什麼會有這個困惑因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊這不是我講的是審查委員講的"},{"start":397.352,"end":424.625,"text":"然後呢你們給我的書面回覆我不知道部長有沒有看你說啊這裡面有什麼有智慧教育也有智慧醫療但人家在說的是什麼你的智慧教育智慧醫療跟教育部的校園五級示範教室跟學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同跟衛福部導入五級級智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同"},{"start":425.546,"end":448.308,"text":"因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了我拜讀完了以後不好意思我跟部長講我陷入了極度的迷惘到底有什麼不一樣不同的部會用計畫當名目找一些fancy的詞幾億幾億這樣的花我們的政府很有錢那個主席已經站起來我拜託部長"},{"start":449.386,"end":466.413,"text":"我再給你們一次機會我再給你們一次機會這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣你們第一次送來給我的書面回覆我看完了但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣"},{"start":467.54,"end":467.78,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時7分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好！延續上一次的主題，你們數位部也好、數發部也好推了很多計畫，那個計畫的內容我上次問你，兩年砸了3億要做數位賦能推動銀髮世代社會連結計畫，到底具體的成效是什麼？我請你們會後給我資料。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你們會後給我的資料，不好意思，部長，我講的比較直接一點，一堆官樣文章！一堆官樣文章！我們以前在大學的時候，我相信部長經驗也很豐富，大家審過非常多的計畫，什麼是官樣文章、什麼是有具體的成效其實我們大家都讀得出來，內行人不要講外行話，但讓我生氣的是什麼？讓我生氣的事情是我質詢完以後，結果你們數位部很厲害、很厲害，處理的方式是這個計畫點擊率慘不忍睹就乾脆把它遮掩掉！這個是誰下的決定？是部長下令的嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這是他們在跟我報告的時候，他是說我們整個……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思哦，一個問題、一個問題來。"],["黃部長彥男：對、對，我……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，誰下令把它拿掉的？"],["黃部長彥男：是我們的內部人員在……"],["黃委員國昌：你們內部人員權力這麼大喔？"],["黃部長彥男：那當然是有跟我報告，但是我……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你同意是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我同意是因為我們有四千多個資訊、超過8萬人次……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，四千多個資訊有超過8萬次？"],["黃部長彥男：8萬人次。"],["黃委員國昌：好，8萬人次嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：對、對。"],["黃委員國昌：平均每一個資訊多少人次？數學沒有那麼難，四千多個資訊有8萬人次。"],["黃部長彥男：但是報告委員，這個沒辦法平均，因為有些訊息很多人想看，有些看的人就比較少。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，不要講空的啦，這個點擊率慘不忍睹嘛！你們處理問題的方式是什麼？不是解決問題啊，而是把發現問題的線索全部都抹掉啊！把點擊人數直接拿掉，掩耳盜鈴啊！你們後來說有四千多個頁面，四千多個資訊總點擊率是八萬多，那我就問你，一個頁面一個資訊的點擊率是多少？平均是多少？就20次嘛！這個數學有這麼困難嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：不是，報告委員，因為四千多個頁面有的可能會有破萬的點擊率，有的可能只有幾個沒有錯，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：那沒有關係啊，哪一個點擊率好、哪一個點擊率不好就老老實實的呈現出來給大家看，有什麼問題啊？奇怪耶！民進黨政府從2016年以來講的口號是什麼啊？是開放政府耶！是公開透明耶！這個符合開放政府的理念嗎？這個符合公開透明的理念嗎？還是點擊率不好、慘不忍睹，最快的方式是什麼？就是直接把點擊率刪掉，讓大家不要看？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有一個總體點擊率，不過報告委員，上次看到的這個number，包括我剛才講的8萬人次，因為我們是十月二十幾號才上架。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊，那你就把它放上去嘛……"],["黃部長彥男：因為我們上架……"],["黃委員國昌：半年以後我們再看一次啊、一年以後再看一次啊！數發部可以開記者會、發新聞稿或做各式各樣的澄清，你可以說我們上架的時間比較短，所以這個數字可能比較難看，我們相信半年以後、一年以後這個數字一定會大幅提升，能夠好好的擴大我們的銀髮族跟社會的連結，各項活動、各項計畫成績斐然，請社會大眾拭目以待。一個有信心的政府、一個號稱要公開透明的政府不是應該這樣做嗎？部長，我有沒有說錯？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的指導，我想這個其實很簡單，如果委員認為這個數字很重要，我們就再把它放回去，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，把它放回去，我們過一段時間繼續再來檢驗。"],["黃部長彥男：好，再來看。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你講啦，為什麼我覺得這個計畫非常的荒謬？點進去還不一定會真的去參加那個活動，真的要計算KPI是什麼？真的要計算KPI是投了這幾億下去做了這些事情，實際產出的output是什麼，所以實際產出的output我老實講也不是上去看點擊幾次，而是實際到那個地方參與那個活動的人因為這個而增加了多少，這個才是實際的measure的方式嘛。問題是有點擊並不代表有去！但是如果連點都不點的話，代表它的效益我可以很確定的講是zero！是零嘛！你們該做的事情不是直接把點擊的次數抹掉，你們該做的事情是除了點擊的次數以外，到那個空間、到那個地點參與那個活動的，你們進一步去調查請問來參加這個活動獲得資訊的管道是什麼？你才有辦法去measure這個計畫實際產生的效用跟output是什麼。這個是一個非常簡單的道理，我沒有辦法理解數位部為什麼沒有辦法理解這麼簡單的道理，但是我上次是善意跟部長講，請你回去瞭解這些計畫，因為如果實際上執行的成果是這個樣子，你會很難說服很多委員在明年繼續支持這個計畫。","相同的狀況一樣，我帶部長看，我上次問次世代行動創新應用賦能發展計畫2年2億1,300萬到底在做什麼？我為什麼會有這個困惑？因為這個困惑是連審查委員都說與既有的計畫高度重疊，這不是我講的，這是審查委員講的。然後你們給我的書面回復我不知道部長有沒有看，你說這裡面有智慧教育、也有智慧醫療。但人家在說的是什麼？你的智慧教育、智慧醫療跟教育部的校園5G示範教室與學習載具計畫到底有什麼不同？跟衛福部的導入5G及智慧科技提升醫療與健康照護有什麼不同？因為這些計畫書我全部都拜讀過了，我拜讀完了以後，不好意思，我跟部長講，我陷入了極度的迷惘，到底有什麼不一樣？不同的部會用計畫當名目，找一些fancy的詞，幾億幾億這樣的花，我們的政府很有錢喔？","主席已經站起來，我拜託部長，我再給你們一次機會、這個計畫存在的意義跟目的到底是什麼？跟其他部會的計畫到底有什麼不一樣？你們第一次送來給我的書面回復我看完了，但我看完以後的心得就像我剛剛跟部長報告一樣，每一句話我都看得懂，但看完了以後我不知道你的key point是什麼，沒有辦法解決這個問題。我再給數位部一次機會，如果這一次所提出來的說明一樣沒有辦法說服的話，那到預算程序的時候該刪的就刪，政府不可以浪費公帑。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再給委員報告。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請林楚茵委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-13","speakers":["魯明哲","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","蔡其昌","許智傑","游顥","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","林楚茵","劉建國","羅美玲"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00005"}}}