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{\"start\": 281.271, \"end\": 287.434, \"text\": \"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 281.271, \"end\": 281.291, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 281.291, \"end\": 281.371, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 281.371, \"end\": 281.391, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"曜\", \"start\": 281.391, \"end\": 281.491, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 281.491, \"end\": 281.511, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 281.511, \"end\": 281.531, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 281.531, \"end\": 281.551, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 281.551, \"end\": 281.571, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 281.571, \"end\": 281.591, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 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{\"start\": 336.271, \"end\": 338.933, \"text\": \"三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 336.271, \"end\": 336.451, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 336.451, \"end\": 336.571, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 336.571, \"end\": 336.711, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 336.711, \"end\": 336.811, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"罷\"}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 336.811, \"end\": 336.972, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 336.972, \"end\": 337.032, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 337.032, \"end\": 337.052, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 337.052, \"end\": 337.112, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 337.112, \"end\": 337.332, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 337.332, \"end\": 337.732, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 337.732, \"end\": 337.992, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 337.992, \"end\": 338.092, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 338.092, \"end\": 338.232, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 338.232, \"end\": 338.333, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 338.333, \"end\": 338.453, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 338.453, \"end\": 338.493, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 338.493, \"end\": 338.653, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 338.653, \"end\": 338.793, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 338.793, \"end\": 338.893, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 338.893, \"end\": 338.913, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 338.913, \"end\": 338.933, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 354.844, \"end\": 381.598, \"text\": \"選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 354.844, \"end\": 355.145, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 355.145, \"end\": 355.705, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 355.705, \"end\": 356.085, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 356.085, \"end\": 356.685, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 356.685, \"end\": 356.925, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 356.925, \"end\": 357.126, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 357.126, \"end\": 357.786, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 357.786, \"end\": 358.146, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 358.146, \"end\": 358.346, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 358.346, \"end\": 358.826, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", 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0.893}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 368.932, \"end\": 369.072, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 369.072, \"end\": 369.592, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 369.592, \"end\": 369.872, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 369.872, \"end\": 370.072, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 370.072, \"end\": 371.973, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"純\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 371.973, \"end\": 372.594, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 372.594, \"end\": 373.754, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 373.754, \"end\": 373.854, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 373.854, \"end\": 374.555, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 374.555, \"end\": 375.495, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"罷\"}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 375.495, \"end\": 375.615, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 375.615, \"end\": 375.735, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 375.735, \"end\": 376.376, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 376.376, \"end\": 376.596, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 376.596, \"end\": 377.596, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 377.596, \"end\": 378.197, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 378.197, \"end\": 378.517, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 378.517, \"end\": 379.637, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"邏\"}, {\"word\": \"輯\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 379.637, \"end\": 380.398, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 380.398, \"end\": 380.838, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 380.838, \"end\": 381.098, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 381.098, \"end\": 381.578, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": 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412.189, \"text\": \"好 謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標 什麼是雙標\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 398.783, \"end\": 399.363, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 399.363, \"end\": 399.503, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 399.503, \"end\": 399.683, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 399.683, \"end\": 399.964, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 399.964, \"end\": 400.284, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 400.284, \"end\": 400.524, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 400.524, \"end\": 400.744, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 400.744, \"end\": 400.984, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 400.984, \"end\": 401.144, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 401.144, \"end\": 401.404, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 401.404, 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0.747}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 571.333, \"end\": 571.353, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 571.353, \"end\": 571.773, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 571.773, \"end\": 572.173, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 572.173, \"end\": 572.253, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 572.253, \"end\": 572.313, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 572.313, \"end\": 572.534, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 572.534, \"end\": 572.674, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 572.674, \"end\": 572.754, \"score\": 0.457}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 572.754, \"end\": 572.774, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 572.774, \"end\": 572.794, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 572.794, \"end\": 572.914, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 572.914, \"end\": 572.934, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 572.934, \"end\": 573.014, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 573.014, \"end\": 573.154, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 573.154, \"end\": 573.214, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 573.214, \"end\": 573.314, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 573.314, \"end\": 573.354, \"score\": 0.474}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 573.354, \"end\": 573.374, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 573.374, \"end\": 573.495, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 573.495, \"end\": 573.515, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}]}, {\"start\": 579.88, \"end\": 603.398, \"text\": \"好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 579.88, \"end\": 580.0, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"諸\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 580.0, \"end\": 580.401, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 580.401, \"end\": 580.521, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 580.521, \"end\": 580.961, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 580.961, \"end\": 581.101, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 581.101, \"end\": 581.542, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 581.542, \"end\": 581.782, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 581.782, \"end\": 582.482, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 582.482, \"end\": 582.662, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 582.662, \"end\": 583.403, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 583.403, \"end\": 584.044, \"score\": 0.901}, 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{\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 596.493, \"end\": 596.733, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 596.733, \"end\": 596.993, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 596.993, \"end\": 597.253, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"宋\", \"start\": 597.253, \"end\": 597.514, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 597.514, \"end\": 597.674, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 597.674, \"end\": 597.834, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 597.834, \"end\": 598.614, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 598.614, \"end\": 598.855, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 598.855, \"end\": 598.995, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 598.995, \"end\": 599.775, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"敗\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 599.775, \"end\": 600.136, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", 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{\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 603.378, \"end\": 603.398, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 604.659, \"end\": 624.13, \"text\": \"所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 604.659, \"end\": 604.779, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 604.779, \"end\": 604.899, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 604.899, \"end\": 606.34, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 606.34, \"end\": 606.66, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"稱\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 606.66, \"end\": 607.2, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 607.2, \"end\": 607.381, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 607.381, \"end\": 607.861, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"款\", 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\"start\": 610.803, \"end\": 610.983, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 610.983, \"end\": 611.303, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 611.303, \"end\": 612.203, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 612.203, \"end\": 612.383, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 612.383, \"end\": 612.604, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 612.604, \"end\": 612.844, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 612.844, \"end\": 613.464, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 613.464, \"end\": 614.505, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 614.505, \"end\": 614.785, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 614.785, \"end\": 615.325, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 615.325, \"end\": 615.485, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 615.485, \"end\": 615.926, 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\"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 619.287, \"end\": 619.708, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 619.708, \"end\": 620.008, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 620.008, \"end\": 620.348, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"宋\", \"start\": 620.348, \"end\": 620.688, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 620.688, \"end\": 621.028, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 621.028, \"end\": 621.509, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 621.509, \"end\": 621.689, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 621.689, \"end\": 621.789, \"score\": 0.481}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 621.789, \"end\": 622.009, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 622.009, \"end\": 622.209, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 622.209, \"end\": 622.469, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 622.469, \"end\": 622.669, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 622.669, \"end\": 622.93, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"宋\", \"start\": 622.93, \"end\": 623.13, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 623.13, \"end\": 623.27, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 623.27, \"end\": 623.35, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 623.35, \"end\": 623.45, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 623.45, \"end\": 623.49, \"score\": 0.008}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 623.49, \"end\": 623.51, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 623.51, \"end\": 623.53, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 623.53, \"end\": 623.57, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 623.57, \"end\": 623.59, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 623.59, \"end\": 623.61, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 623.61, \"end\": 623.63, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 623.63, \"end\": 623.73, \"score\": 0.76}, 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\"鐘\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 709.83, \"end\": 710.01, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 710.01, \"end\": 710.15, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 710.15, \"end\": 711.13, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"逼\", \"start\": 711.13, \"end\": 711.371, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 711.371, \"end\": 711.391, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 726.992, \"end\": 756.031, \"text\": \"你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好 謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 726.992, \"end\": 727.112, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 727.112, \"end\": 727.613, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 727.613, \"end\": 728.253, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 728.253, \"end\": 728.553, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 728.553, \"end\": 729.114, 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\"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 778.729, \"end\": 779.09, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 779.09, \"end\": 779.17, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 779.17, \"end\": 779.29, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 779.29, \"end\": 779.45, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 779.45, \"end\": 779.63, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 779.63, \"end\": 780.191, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 780.191, \"end\": 780.331, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 780.331, \"end\": 780.351, \"score\": 0.59}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,414 --> 00:00:12,997\n好謝謝主席我們請主委好請你主委\n\n2\n00:00:21,212 --> 00:00:45,469\n好那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個\n\n3\n00:00:46,951 --> 00:00:49,293\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n4\n00:01:03,534 --> 00:01:18,258\n每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整\n\n5\n00:01:19,847 --> 00:01:43,829\n謝謝,好,謝謝昭緯。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言,至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容,不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭緯喔。好,可以暫停。\n\n6\n00:01:45,302 --> 00:02:10,558\n好謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎\n\n7\n00:02:11,738 --> 00:02:38,579\n這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分\n\n8\n00:02:40,880 --> 00:03:09,566\n對,今天有比上個會期多了,時間多,謝謝。對,我知道,多了一分鐘,一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量,這樣還是非常的不夠。登記發言的人數是三倍,謝謝。其實不管登記發言的人數是多少,既然發言的人多,我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論,可以再多排幾天都沒有問題,你可以今天也排,接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候,你再排,\n\n9\n00:03:09,986 --> 00:03:12,629\n也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?\n\n10\n00:03:20,472 --> 00:03:47,787\n好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。\n\n11\n00:03:49,308 --> 00:03:59,455\n這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢\n\n12\n00:04:21,842 --> 00:04:39,090\n我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點\n\n13\n00:04:41,271 --> 00:04:47,434\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n\n14\n00:05:09,747 --> 00:05:35,210\n公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭\n\n15\n00:05:36,271 --> 00:05:38,933\n三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n16\n00:05:54,844 --> 00:06:21,598\n選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的\n\n17\n00:06:22,799 --> 00:06:38,097\n因此外面有人做了一個比喻就是說你分母不同你要比分子這個是有問題的因此我們認為這樣子的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的大家多交換意見\n\n18\n00:06:38,783 --> 00:06:52,189\n好謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標什麼是雙標\n\n19\n00:07:05,993 --> 00:07:09,795\n所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權力根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權力自攬在自己身上\n\n20\n00:07:18,177 --> 00:07:35,803\n所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到了我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動\n\n21\n00:07:37,363 --> 00:07:51,793\n這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的\n\n22\n00:07:52,313 --> 00:07:56,738\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n23\n00:08:12,173 --> 00:08:39,073\n在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身\n\n24\n00:08:40,134 --> 00:08:51,017\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正\n\n25\n00:09:02,020 --> 00:09:04,566\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n\n26\n00:09:14,537 --> 00:09:33,515\n民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來說短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎\n\n27\n00:09:39,880 --> 00:10:03,398\n好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。\n\n28\n00:10:04,659 --> 00:10:24,130\n所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的\n\n29\n00:10:29,033 --> 00:10:54,827\n那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出來都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子\n\n30\n00:10:57,568 --> 00:11:15,133\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n\n31\n00:11:22,472 --> 00:11:36,642\n上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣\n\n32\n00:11:46,127 --> 00:11:51,391\n二、審查委員王國昌等15分鐘,張偉等12分鐘,但我現在多講一分鐘就被消逼了。\n\n33\n00:12:06,992 --> 00:12:36,031\n你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名\n\n34\n00:12:37,352 --> 00:13:00,351\n當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9414\t12997\t好謝謝主席我們請主委好請你主委\n21212\t45469\t好那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個\n46951\t49293\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n63534\t78258\t每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整\n79847\t103829\t謝謝,好,謝謝昭緯。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言,至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容,不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭緯喔。好,可以暫停。\n105302\t130558\t好 謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎\n131738\t158579\t這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好 謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分\n160880\t189566\t對,今天有比上個會期多了,時間多,謝謝。對,我知道,多了一分鐘,一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量,這樣還是非常的不夠。登記發言的人數是三倍,謝謝。其實不管登記發言的人數是多少,既然發言的人多,我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論,可以再多排幾天都沒有問題,你可以今天也排,接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候,你再排,\n189986\t192629\t也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?\n200472\t227787\t好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。\n229308\t239455\t這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢\n261842\t279090\t我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點\n281271\t287434\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n309747\t335210\t公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭\n336271\t338933\t三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n354844\t381598\t選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的\n382799\t398097\t因此外面有人做了一個比喻就是說你分母不同你要比分子這個是有問題的因此我們認為這樣子的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的大家多交換意見\n398783\t412189\t好 謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標 什麼是雙標\n425993\t429795\t所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權力根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權力自攬在自己身上\n438177\t455803\t所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到了我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動\n457363\t471793\t這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的\n472313\t476738\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n492173\t519073\t在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身\n520134\t531017\t二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正\n542020\t544566\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n554537\t573515\t民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來說短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎\n579880\t603398\t好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。\n604659\t624130\t所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的\n629033\t654827\t那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出來都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子\n657568\t675133\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n682472\t696642\t上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣\n706127\t711391\t二、審查委員王國昌等15分鐘,張偉等12分鐘,但我現在多講一分鐘就被消逼了。\n726992\t756031\t你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好 謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名\n757352\t780351\t當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請主委好請你主委\n好那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整\n謝謝,好,謝謝昭緯。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言,至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容,不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭緯喔。好,可以暫停。\n好 謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎\n這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好 謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分\n對,今天有比上個會期多了,時間多,謝謝。對,我知道,多了一分鐘,一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量,這樣還是非常的不夠。登記發言的人數是三倍,謝謝。其實不管登記發言的人數是多少,既然發言的人多,我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論,可以再多排幾天都沒有問題,你可以今天也排,接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候,你再排,\n也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?\n好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。\n這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢\n我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭\n三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的\n因此外面有人做了一個比喻就是說你分母不同你要比分子這個是有問題的因此我們認為這樣子的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的大家多交換意見\n好 謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標 什麼是雙標\n所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權力根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權力自攬在自己身上\n所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到了我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動\n這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來說短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎\n好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。\n所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的\n那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出來都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣\n二、審查委員王國昌等15分鐘,張偉等12分鐘,但我現在多講一分鐘就被消逼了。\n你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好 謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名\n當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.414 --> 00:12.997\n好謝謝主席我們請主委好請你主委\n\n00:21.212 --> 00:45.469\n好那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個\n\n00:46.951 --> 00:49.293\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n01:03.534 --> 01:18.258\n每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整\n\n01:19.847 --> 01:43.829\n謝謝,好,謝謝昭緯。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言,至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容,不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭緯喔。好,可以暫停。\n\n01:45.302 --> 02:10.558\n好謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎\n\n02:11.738 --> 02:38.579\n這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分\n\n02:40.880 --> 03:09.566\n對,今天有比上個會期多了,時間多,謝謝。對,我知道,多了一分鐘,一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量,這樣還是非常的不夠。登記發言的人數是三倍,謝謝。其實不管登記發言的人數是多少,既然發言的人多,我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論,可以再多排幾天都沒有問題,你可以今天也排,接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候,你再排,\n\n03:09.986 --> 03:12.629\n也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?\n\n03:20.472 --> 03:47.787\n好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。\n\n03:49.308 --> 03:59.455\n這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢\n\n04:21.842 --> 04:39.090\n我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點\n\n04:41.271 --> 04:47.434\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n\n05:09.747 --> 05:35.210\n公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭\n\n05:36.271 --> 05:38.933\n三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n05:54.844 --> 06:21.598\n選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的\n\n06:22.799 --> 06:38.097\n因此外面有人做了一個比喻就是說你分母不同你要比分子這個是有問題的因此我們認為這樣子的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的大家多交換意見\n\n06:38.783 --> 06:52.189\n好謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標什麼是雙標\n\n07:05.993 --> 07:09.795\n所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權力根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權力自攬在自己身上\n\n07:18.177 --> 07:35.803\n所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到了我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動\n\n07:37.363 --> 07:51.793\n這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的\n\n07:52.313 --> 07:56.738\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n08:12.173 --> 08:39.073\n在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身\n\n08:40.134 --> 08:51.017\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正\n\n09:02.020 --> 09:04.566\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．\n\n09:14.537 --> 09:33.515\n民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來說短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎\n\n09:39.880 --> 10:03.398\n好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。\n\n10:04.659 --> 10:24.130\n所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的\n\n10:29.033 --> 10:54.827\n那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出來都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子\n\n10:57.568 --> 11:15.133\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n\n11:22.472 --> 11:36.642\n上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣\n\n11:46.127 --> 11:51.391\n二、審查委員王國昌等15分鐘,張偉等12分鐘,但我現在多講一分鐘就被消逼了。\n\n12:06.992 --> 12:36.031\n你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名\n\n12:37.352 --> 13:00.351\n當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.414,"end":12.997,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請主委好請你主委"},{"start":21.212,"end":45.469,"text":"好那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個"},{"start":46.951,"end":49.293,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":63.534,"end":78.258,"text":"每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整"},{"start":79.847,"end":103.829,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝昭緯。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言,至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容,不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭緯喔。好,可以暫停。"},{"start":105.302,"end":130.558,"text":"好 謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎"},{"start":131.738,"end":158.579,"text":"這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好 謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分"},{"start":160.88,"end":189.566,"text":"對,今天有比上個會期多了,時間多,謝謝。對,我知道,多了一分鐘,一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量,這樣還是非常的不夠。登記發言的人數是三倍,謝謝。其實不管登記發言的人數是多少,既然發言的人多,我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論,可以再多排幾天都沒有問題,你可以今天也排,接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候,你再排,"},{"start":189.986,"end":192.629,"text":"也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?"},{"start":200.472,"end":227.787,"text":"好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。"},{"start":229.308,"end":239.455,"text":"這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢"},{"start":261.842,"end":279.09,"text":"我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點"},{"start":281.271,"end":287.434,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":309.747,"end":335.21,"text":"公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭"},{"start":336.271,"end":338.933,"text":"三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":354.844,"end":381.598,"text":"選舉的時候他的這個投票率他的候選人的人數他的當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣基礎不一樣計算基礎不一樣的情況之下你要拿兩個單純的一個當選的票數跟罷免的票數來做比較這個是沒有邏輯的不符合這個邏輯的"},{"start":382.799,"end":398.097,"text":"因此外面有人做了一個比喻就是說你分母不同你要比分子這個是有問題的因此我們認為這樣子的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的大家多交換意見"},{"start":398.783,"end":412.189,"text":"好 謝謝主委您的說明非常的清楚我必須要在這邊嚴厲的說國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免所以就來拉高門檻結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的他們說要還權於民要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利昨天說要還權於民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標 什麼是雙標"},{"start":425.993,"end":429.795,"text":"所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權力根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權力自攬在自己身上"},{"start":438.177,"end":455.803,"text":"所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到了我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動"},{"start":457.363,"end":471.793,"text":"這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的"},{"start":472.313,"end":476.738,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":492.173,"end":519.073,"text":"在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身"},{"start":520.134,"end":531.017,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正"},{"start":542.02,"end":544.566,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":554.537,"end":573.515,"text":"民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來說短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎"},{"start":579.88,"end":603.398,"text":"好,謝謝諸位說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公佈。當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公佈了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁。但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票。"},{"start":604.659,"end":624.13,"text":"所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的"},{"start":629.033,"end":654.827,"text":"那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出來都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子"},{"start":657.568,"end":675.133,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「"},{"start":682.472,"end":696.642,"text":"上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣"},{"start":706.127,"end":711.391,"text":"二、審查委員王國昌等15分鐘,張偉等12分鐘,但我現在多講一分鐘就被消逼了。"},{"start":726.992,"end":756.031,"text":"你已經多講五分鐘了你已經多講五分鐘了你現在也已經十幾分鐘了最後一分鐘結尾可不可以最後一分鐘結尾好 謝謝張偉剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子有人記得嗎去年有人花了1400萬做了14的民調把自己的民調做到第二名"},{"start":757.352,"end":780.351,"text":"當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好，我還是要表達一下，我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查，就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間，或是5加2以上的時間，像昨天其實也是5加2。但是召委就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘，甚至召委自己也講了12分鐘，結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言，我認為還是要互相尊重，這為內政委員會開啟一個非常不好的先例。","好，首先請教主委。"],["主席：本席在這裡回應一下……"],["黃委員捷：那不好意思，時間暫停。"],["主席：對，暫停、暫停，不用開始。每天登記的人不同，本席是維護今天登記發言的，特別是民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多，本席希望讓大家都可以暢所欲言，所以稍微調整，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝召委，我也認為如果要暢所欲言，至少要維持基本的分鐘數啦！否則照目前這樣的時間，實在很難在這麼短的時間內，把我們所有想講的內容，不管是對預算的意見，還是對今天如此重大的法案，包括過去其實……不好意思，時間先暫停，現在還是在回應召委。"],["主席：好，可以暫停。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，因為包括今天審選罷法，也是非常重大的法案，召委也知道過去其實國民黨團也二度說，今天這個法案是非常有爭議，所以也都暫緩排案，那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查，要詢答這麼重大……大家也都認為應該要好好審查的法案，結果時間還比較短，這樣豈不是很難對所有人民交代嗎？"],["主席：這個時間沒有最短，本席剛剛有說明，在內政委員會第一會期，就上個會期，有4加1，今天是5加1……"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["主席：再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候，其實我們還有更多深入討論的機會，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝召委，那我也說，因為今天不只是法案還有預算，那上個會期其實沒有預算，所以今天是2倍的內容、2倍的工作量，大家的討論時間應該要更充分。"],["主席：對，今天有比上個會期的時間多。"],["黃委員捷：對，我知道，多了1分鐘，1分鐘要處理2倍的工作量，這樣還是非常的不夠。"],["主席：登記發言的人數是3倍，好，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：其實不管登記發言的人數是多少，既然發言的人多，我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論，可以再多排幾天都沒有問題，你可以今天也排，接下來下一次再輪值到徐召委的時候，你再排也很好啊！大家用更多的時間、更成熟的把非常完整的法案內容來做討論，這樣是不是更圓滿呢？"],["主席：好，可以開始質詢，請您開始。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝召委。首先請教一下主委，因為今天選罷法的提案有非常多，提案委員內容都不一樣，要進到細節來討論實在是時間不夠，我還是要講一下罷免權的核心，因為我自己作為當事人，其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去，就可以把你下架下來，這是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利，可是今天看到一個非常、非常關鍵的條文是，接下來他們希望把罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一，這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高，不只是鳥籠罷免，甚至是要把這個罷免浸到豬籠裡面，完全再也無法行使了呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，我們認為罷免是憲法所保障的公民參政權，所以有關於不管是選舉、罷免、創制、複決，法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點，就現行選罷的制度來講，其實並沒有什麼窒礙難行之處，所以在這個時候提出這個修正案，尤其這個修正案實施的結果可能是提高了罷免的門檻，增加了行使罷免權的困難度，我們認為應該要非常、非常的慎重，這是第一點，就憲法所保障公民權的部分所表示的意見。第二點，就是罷免跟選舉中間時間的落差有一年半，不管是罷免也好，不管是選舉也好，都是民意的檢驗，但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化，人、事都會有很多的更迭，所以用一年半以前的民意要來碾壓現在最新投票時的民意，我覺得這是有問題的，這是第二點。第三點，計算的基礎不同，選舉時的投票率、候選人的人數、當選人的人數跟罷免的時候都不一樣，基礎不一樣、計算基礎不一樣的情況之下，你要單純的拿一個當選票數跟一個罷免票數來做比較，這個是沒有邏輯的，不符合邏輯的，因此外面有人做了一個比喻，就是分母不同卻要比分子，這是有問題的。因此我們認為這樣的一個修正案是應該要非常審慎的，大家多交換意見。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委，您的說明非常得清楚，我必須要在這邊嚴厲地說，國民黨因為害怕自己被罷免，所以就來拉高門檻，結果他們在公投法的修正裡面是怎麼說的？他們說要還權於民、要讓人民來行使人民自決的權利。昨天說要還權於民，今天就沒收罷免權，這不是雙標，什麼是雙標？所以我認為在這邊很明顯，國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權利，根本就是威權的擁護者、根本就是為了要把所有權利自攬在自己身上，所以才會進行這樣的修法。","其實剛剛主委說到的，我也非常有感，因為我個人也被提過罷免，當時在我選上之後，過了兩年多，被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法，甚至是因為我支持同志運動，這不只是跟我當選當時這樣的時空背景環境不一樣，罷免行使權利的理由更是一點都沒有正當性，所以我非常認同剛剛主委所說的。","再來，最後一點時間，我要跟你請教一下，因為裡面還有一個關鍵是提到要把選前10天不能公布民調改成3天，可不可以請教一下主委，當時為什麼會有這樣的法條成立、為什麼要設定選前10天？"],["李主任委員進勇：在選前一定的時間裡面，對於民意調查的限制，這在國外的立法例也很多，最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調影響到選民的判斷，尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實，那麼候選人本身要有適當的時間能夠提出說明來做訴求，最主要的目的在這個地方，至於多少天，各國的立法例不一樣。我們這個10天其實當時也是經過朝野協商，大家共同同意的時間，所以這個10天不是天上掉下來的，而是當時大家共同協商的結果。在協商通過之後，到現在為止，民調影響選舉的事情，情況是越來越複雜、越來越多、越來越嚴重，所以在這樣子的一個條件之下，反而是不是要思考這個時間是不是要再延長一點？"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["李主任委員進勇：如果反方向要縮短，我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委說明。我講一下，因為其實選前民調要10天之前公布，當時的時空背景是這樣的，2000年的總統大選，在選前兩天，時任臺北市長的馬英九，他公布了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜，導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁，但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票，所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款，這個就是在當時的時空背景之下，朝野共同決定，如果沒有規定10天的選前民調，一定會有受害者，當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜，所以直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼？他說國民黨就是創始的假民調，這是宋楚瑜說的，結果翁曉玲現在要把10天改成3天，我看了一下，支持的人有傅崐萁總召，當時2000年的時候，傅崐萁總召就是親民黨的……"],["主席：黃委員，時間到了，本席多給你3分鐘了。"],["黃委員捷：他自己出來都不幫宋楚瑜主席抱一下屈、來幫他解釋一下、幫他鼓勵一下，結果這個時候還跟著翁曉玲搞這種非常不適宜的修法。我也講一下最近的例子……"],["主席：不是，時間到了。"],["黃委員捷：好，再給我……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["黃委員捷：召委昨天講12分鐘……"],["主席：你時間到了。"],["黃委員捷：昨天講12分鐘。你都讓黃國昌委員講15分鐘，召委，你昨天讓黃國昌講15分鐘，你自己講12分鐘，我多講1分鐘，你就把我消音……"],["主席：上次排會，你們浪費大家一整天的時間，好不好？不要講這些沒有意義的話，你尊重大家好不好？"],["黃委員捷：你也尊重我們發言的委員好不好？多講1分鐘而已……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["黃委員捷：有超過你講的12分鐘嗎？"],["主席：每個委員會都這樣。"],["黃委員捷：沒有，沒有都這樣，昨天的內政委員會，黃國昌就講了15分鐘，召委自己也講了12分鐘，我現在多講1分鐘就被消音、我多講1分鐘就被消音……"],["主席：你已經多講5分鐘了、你已經多講5分鐘了！你現在也已經十幾分鐘了……"],["黃委員捷：讓我最後一分鐘結尾，可不可以？最後一分鐘結尾，謝謝召委。","剛剛主委講到一個非常重要的，我們甚至覺得這個10天都還可以再延長，是因為到去年總統大選都還有這樣的例子，有人記得嗎？去年有人花了1,400萬做了10次的民調，把自己的民調做到第2名，當時最大的受害者是誰？是國民黨耶！就是因為這樣，最後才沒有藍白合嘛！所以按照翁曉玲委員的修法，這種民調如果在選前3天公布，以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢？所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎，時間甚至可以再延長，而絕對不是縮短，請國民黨自己想清楚，謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}}