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368.209, \"end\": 368.229, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 368.229, \"end\": 369.11, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 369.11, \"end\": 369.291, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 369.291, \"end\": 369.431, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 369.431, \"end\": 369.591, \"score\": 0.586}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 369.591, \"end\": 369.811, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 369.811, \"end\": 370.532, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 370.532, \"end\": 370.572, \"score\": 0.517}, {\"word\": \"罷\"}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 370.572, \"end\": 370.792, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 370.792, \"end\": 370.813, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"檻\"}]}, {\"start\": 374.057, \"end\": 399.686, \"text\": \"報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 374.057, \"end\": 374.217, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 374.217, \"end\": 374.637, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 374.637, \"end\": 375.017, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 375.017, \"end\": 375.558, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 375.558, \"end\": 375.818, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 375.818, \"end\": 375.918, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 375.918, \"end\": 376.038, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 376.038, \"end\": 376.478, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 376.478, \"end\": 376.698, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 376.698, \"end\": 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\"start\": 441.673, \"end\": 441.733, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 441.733, \"end\": 441.753, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,726 --> 00:00:11,990\n謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。好,請劉部長、李主委。許議員好。部長好。主委好。部長、主委,我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後,各式的罷免案就經常的發生。那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話,人民有創制、復決、選舉罷免的權利。\n\n2\n00:00:33,124 --> 00:00:48,085\n那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對連署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費\n\n3\n00:00:51,508 --> 00:01:12,879\n報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成\n\n4\n00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:21,204\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n5\n00:01:43,277 --> 00:01:59,288\n2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡罷的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。\n\n6\n00:02:06,593 --> 00:02:16,984\n所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長\n\n7\n00:02:22,750 --> 00:02:45,599\n當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。\n\n8\n00:02:46,139 --> 00:03:00,352\n現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失\n\n9\n00:03:03,254 --> 00:03:06,995\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n10\n00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:34,778\n同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正\n\n11\n00:03:36,062 --> 00:04:03,649\n所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣\n\n12\n00:04:04,409 --> 00:04:08,371\n主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免\n\n13\n00:04:27,352 --> 00:04:29,393\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案：\n\n14\n00:04:46,161 --> 00:04:55,449\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n15\n00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,827\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法\n\n16\n00:05:25,043 --> 00:05:30,310\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n17\n00:05:41,345 --> 00:05:46,068\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n18\n00:05:57,415 --> 00:06:10,813\n另外我也想請教一下我們的這個劉部長就是說您在您的內政部的報告說建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託那這句話我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻\n\n19\n00:06:14,057 --> 00:06:39,686\n報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的\n\n20\n00:06:43,947 --> 00:06:58,099\n對,那現在我想剛剛特別也跟兩位部長主委報告就是現在我們看到的各項的民調包括很多這個青綠的民調的公司所公布的這些民調也都是\n\n21\n00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:07,585\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�\n\n22\n00:07:19,592 --> 00:07:21,753\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6726\t11990\t謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。好,請劉部長、李主委。許議員好。部長好。主委好。部長、主委,我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後,各式的罷免案就經常的發生。那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話,人民有創制、復決、選舉罷免的權利。\n33124\t48085\t那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對連署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費\n51508\t72879\t報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成\n75060\t81204\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n103277\t119288\t2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡罷的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。\n126593\t136984\t所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長\n142750\t165599\t當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。\n166139\t180352\t現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失\n183254\t186995\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n202020\t214778\t同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正\n216062\t243649\t所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣\n244409\t248371\t主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免\n267352\t269393\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案：\n286161\t295449\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n309520\t313827\t二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法\n325043\t330310\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n341345\t346068\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n357415\t370813\t另外我也想請教一下我們的這個劉部長就是說您在您的內政部的報告說建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託那這句話我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻\n374057\t399686\t報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的\n403947\t418099\t對,那現在我想剛剛特別也跟兩位部長主委報告就是現在我們看到的各項的民調包括很多這個青綠的民調的公司所公布的這些民調也都是\n418880\t427585\t二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�\n439592\t441753\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。好,請劉部長、李主委。許議員好。部長好。主委好。部長、主委,我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後,各式的罷免案就經常的發生。那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話,人民有創制、復決、選舉罷免的權利。\n那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對連署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費\n報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡罷的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。\n所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長\n當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。\n現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正\n所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣\n主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案：\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n另外我也想請教一下我們的這個劉部長就是說您在您的內政部的報告說建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託那這句話我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻\n報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的\n對,那現在我想剛剛特別也跟兩位部長主委報告就是現在我們看到的各項的民調包括很多這個青綠的民調的公司所公布的這些民調也都是\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.726 --> 00:11.990\n謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。好,請劉部長、李主委。許議員好。部長好。主委好。部長、主委,我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後,各式的罷免案就經常的發生。那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話,人民有創制、復決、選舉罷免的權利。\n\n00:33.124 --> 00:48.085\n那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對連署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費\n\n00:51.508 --> 01:12.879\n報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成\n\n01:15.060 --> 01:21.204\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n01:43.277 --> 01:59.288\n2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡罷的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。\n\n02:06.593 --> 02:16.984\n所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長\n\n02:22.750 --> 02:45.599\n當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。\n\n02:46.139 --> 03:00.352\n現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失\n\n03:03.254 --> 03:06.995\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n03:22.020 --> 03:34.778\n同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正\n\n03:36.062 --> 04:03.649\n所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣\n\n04:04.409 --> 04:08.371\n主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免\n\n04:27.352 --> 04:29.393\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案：\n\n04:46.161 --> 04:55.449\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n05:09.520 --> 05:13.827\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法\n\n05:25.043 --> 05:30.310\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n05:41.345 --> 05:46.068\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n05:57.415 --> 06:10.813\n另外我也想請教一下我們的這個劉部長就是說您在您的內政部的報告說建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託那這句話我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻\n\n06:14.057 --> 06:39.686\n報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的\n\n06:43.947 --> 06:58.099\n對,那現在我想剛剛特別也跟兩位部長主委報告就是現在我們看到的各項的民調包括很多這個青綠的民調的公司所公布的這些民調也都是\n\n06:58.880 --> 07:07.585\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�\n\n07:19.592 --> 07:21.753\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.726,"end":11.99,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。好,請劉部長、李主委。許議員好。部長好。主委好。部長、主委,我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後,各式的罷免案就經常的發生。那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話,人民有創制、復決、選舉罷免的權利。"},{"start":33.124,"end":48.085,"text":"那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對連署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費"},{"start":51.508,"end":72.879,"text":"報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成"},{"start":75.06,"end":81.204,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":103.277,"end":119.288,"text":"2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡罷的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。"},{"start":126.593,"end":136.984,"text":"所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長"},{"start":142.75,"end":165.599,"text":"當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。"},{"start":166.139,"end":180.352,"text":"現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失"},{"start":183.254,"end":186.995,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":202.02,"end":214.778,"text":"同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正"},{"start":216.062,"end":243.649,"text":"所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣"},{"start":244.409,"end":248.371,"text":"主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免"},{"start":267.352,"end":269.393,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":286.161,"end":295.449,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":309.52,"end":313.827,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":325.043,"end":330.31,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":341.345,"end":346.068,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":357.415,"end":370.813,"text":"另外我也想請教一下我們的這個劉部長就是說您在您的內政部的報告說建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託那這句話我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻"},{"start":374.057,"end":399.686,"text":"報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎是有時候要一句共識是很重要的"},{"start":403.947,"end":418.099,"text":"對,那現在我想剛剛特別也跟兩位部長主委報告就是現在我們看到的各項的民調包括很多這個青綠的民調的公司所公布的這些民調也都是"},{"start":418.88,"end":427.585,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":439.592,"end":441.753,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時48分）謝謝主席，請內政部劉部長、中選會李主委。"],["主席：好，請劉部長、李主委。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好、主委好。從2016年罷免門檻下修之後，各式的罷免案就經常發生，根據中華民國憲法規定，人民有創制、複決、選舉、罷免的權利，既然罷免是我國憲法上直接民主下所承認的一個制度，所以我要針對連署的部分請教兩位。請問部長，頻繁的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想從另外一個觀點切進去，誠如我剛剛所說的，如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利，那麼我們充分尊重，但頻繁與否，譬如您剛剛所提到的，從2016年到現在，我們所看到的罷免案，大概各個政黨都有人被罷免，或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案……"],["許委員宇甄：那您認不認為頻繁的罷免案會造成……好，那如果像現在的狀況，罷免會不會造成國家資源的浪費？"],["劉部長世芳：就如我剛剛提到的，罷免是憲法賦予公民的參政權，所以我們充分尊重，至於是不是頻繁，或會不會造成國家社會不安定的狀況，則是政黨、執政的縣市或是中央政府應該負的責任，跟選罷法所規範的公民參政權不太相同。"],["許委員宇甄：今天質詢的時間比較短，請兩位儘可能簡短回答。2022年1月11號，民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞隆都有提案，為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免層出不窮，主張區域立委跟行政首長的罷免案，應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數規定，以預防未來出現惡罷狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員，您也有連署，您提到罷免門檻有必要提高，並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度，即使維持民意代表可以被罷免，也應該區分單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準。請問部長，當時您的主張是怎樣？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個案子，第一個，屆期不續審；再來，我主張的部分，我覺得是可以討論，就是剛剛我所說的，罷免與否或者選舉與否，這是公民的參政權，在不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量下，我們願意跟各個政黨來做一個公平、公開的溝通與交流。"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在我們就是在做一個公平、公開的詢答和討論。請教部長跟主委，現在的罷免制度存在雙低問題，就是成案條件低與通過門檻低的雙低設計缺失，也讓罷免變成有心人建構個人聲量的政治工具，現在也有多份民調顯示，超過58.9%的人反對這種少數否決多數的罷免規定，也有超過56.6%的人支持罷免同意票應高於當選的同意票數。針對這樣的民調，請問部長跟主委，你們認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣的缺失？要如何修正？"],["李主任委員進勇：所謂少數否決多數這樣的講法，我是覺得太過簡單、太過簡單，而且基礎事實是不一樣的，為什麼說太過簡單？因為在選舉的時候，選舉人數、投票率、當選人數、候選人人數都跟罷免時完全不一樣，基礎既然不一樣，你所得出來的數字……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，大家主要提出來的部分，就是現在25%的門檻相對是低的，但我這次也沒有要修正門檻，沒有要提高門檻的意思，但是有可能這一位民意代表是三成選票當選的，那我們用25%把他罷免，是不是可以討論？當然，基本上只要他多一票，就可以不被罷免；同樣的，比如賴清德總統，他是四成民意支持度，但是要50%才能夠罷免，而之前的謝國樑，他是五成多的民意支持度當選的，卻有可能25%就可以把他罷免掉，以法律的一致性來講，這是不公平……"],["李主任委員進勇：五成也好、四成五也好……"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，我是覺得應該可以討論，最主要這也不是只有國民黨提案，之前民進黨也都有提案，表示大家其實都有這樣的想法，所以應該要來好好討論，是不是有少數否決多數的問題……"],["李主任委員進勇：我要提醒一點是……"],["許委員宇甄：既然民調顯示大部分民眾都支持，所以我覺得應該要好好討論，這也是為什麼我們今天排審這樣的問題……"],["李主任委員進勇：我要提醒的一點是，當初不管是四成、五成當選的得票率，到投罷免票的兩成五的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：你剛剛說一年半的這個時間……"],["李主任委員進勇：裡面有多少是流到了同意罷免的這個四分之一，這都是一個問題，所以不能夠直接講得票數……"],["許委員宇甄：當然這是可以討論的，我的意思是說，因為現行罷免門檻低的關係，所以有這樣的狀況，我覺得在現行制度中，是否能夠尋求一個解決低罷免門檻問題的方式，這是我的提案，當然大家可以討論，另外……"],["李主任委員進勇：在過去幾年內的罷免案……"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我也想請教劉部長，內政部報告中提到，建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理為妥。這句話，我可不可以解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免門檻？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛也跟各位委員報告，我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次公聽會，各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了，表示各界都還沒有共識，這樣我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識，而現行的制度，其實是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所同意的標準，如果說各個政黨在立法院裡面有共識……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們現在才要再來討論這樣的問題……"],["劉部長世芳：是，凝聚共識是很重要的。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我剛剛也特別跟兩位報告，現在我們看到的各項民調，包括很多親綠民調公司所公布的民調，也都認為不應該有高票當選、低票罷免的狀況發生。針對最近公布的幾個民調，我們要如何真正的反映民意、尊重民意，我想這才是我們這次討論的一個重點……"],["李主任委員進勇：檢討當然是可以檢討，但是所提出來的方案……"],["許委員宇甄：好，因為時間關係，不要耽誤……"],["李主任委員進勇：所提出來的方案，用得票數來做比較，那個立論是有問題的。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分可能也要麻煩中選會提出相關的學術研究，至於立論的問題在哪裡，我們再來好好討論。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}}