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{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 559.379, \"end\": 559.639, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 559.639, \"end\": 559.739, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 559.739, \"end\": 559.859, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 559.859, \"end\": 560.119, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 560.119, \"end\": 560.279, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 560.279, \"end\": 560.419, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 560.419, \"end\": 560.439, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,385 --> 00:00:13,336\n謝謝召委,有請我們司部長。\n\n2\n00:00:18,454 --> 00:00:26,657\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n3\n00:00:45,503 --> 00:00:50,645\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n4\n00:01:11,331 --> 00:01:12,892\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n5\n00:01:28,222 --> 00:01:31,324\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n6\n00:01:50,094 --> 00:01:58,277\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n7\n00:02:11,795 --> 00:02:14,197\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n8\n00:02:36,155 --> 00:02:36,936\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n9\n00:02:57,301 --> 00:02:59,602\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n10\n00:03:25,114 --> 00:03:25,294\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n11\n00:03:50,004 --> 00:04:16,044\n所以這就限於兩難啊,就實在很難找到,所以缺口就是只好納稅人的錢來補了。您就是叫做抱歉說,我如果現在是在職的公教人員的話,你說我現在去提高,或者說我現在都不用提高,我繳的錢我一直繳一直繳,然後就變成以退休的人全部他給拿走,到最後整個基金、錢、水庫不見了,哪通呢?\n\n12\n00:04:18,809 --> 00:04:31,914\n這不通嘛這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整\n\n13\n00:04:43,928 --> 00:05:11,441\n所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是呢本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞研的一個工資否則你說在職的你說一個在職的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話\n\n14\n00:05:12,794 --> 00:05:33,139\n這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看法呢沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資因為我也不認為退休金是低延工資那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎\n\n15\n00:05:36,846 --> 00:05:37,406\n三（委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n16\n00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:00,561\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n17\n00:06:16,375 --> 00:06:42,248\n這兩朋友重新再提出來啊我覺得博登你應該有很大的一個感慨啦就是說本來大家在想說年金破產看有沒有辦法變成一個歷史的一個名詞一個健全的一個制度的一個讓他體質更好那讓所有的讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員都可以確定領到退休這個其實在我們台灣我們這個改革已經是展開啦那今天這個法案其實啊\n\n18\n00:06:44,337 --> 00:07:01,642\n這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個公法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這裡修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031\n\n19\n00:07:11,445 --> 00:07:20,157\n交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保運利潤工2011就不夠,用完的算是2020。\n\n20\n00:07:28,308 --> 00:07:48,404\n我們卻改革了公交人員退伍基金的一個提撥率降低了所得替代率還有終結十八八的優惠這樣的一個存款那最後也成功地避免年金財政上走上破產之路啊看著今天這個你做會期怎麼委託這阿貝尼你現在變全序部部長總結你要怎麼看\n\n21\n00:07:52,679 --> 00:08:15,720\n因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法\n\n22\n00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:43,396\n那我覺得我們現在重新在2017年以後這樣一個修法一個方式一個像它是一個延續性的一個工程那我還是建議呢應該持續這個延續性的工程才能穩健這個基金讓現在還沒有退休的人跟已經退休的人都可以繼續呢受到這個基金的一個照顧是啦尤其這2700多億年改後退伍基金節省下來預租的一個金額\n\n23\n00:08:44,637 --> 00:09:10,429\n這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預期是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像我剛剛提到了\n\n24\n00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:20,439\n會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待各個政黨大家其實都要善思啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10385\t13336\t謝謝召委,有請我們司部長。\n18454\t26657\t撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n45503\t50645\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n71331\t72892\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n88222\t91324\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n110094\t118277\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n131795\t134197\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n156155\t156936\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n177301\t179602\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n205114\t205294\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n230004\t256044\t所以這就限於兩難啊,就實在很難找到,所以缺口就是只好納稅人的錢來補了。您就是叫做抱歉說,我如果現在是在職的公教人員的話,你說我現在去提高,或者說我現在都不用提高,我繳的錢我一直繳一直繳,然後就變成以退休的人全部他給拿走,到最後整個基金、錢、水庫不見了,哪通呢?\n258809\t271914\t這不通嘛 這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整\n283928\t311441\t所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是呢本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞研的一個工資否則你說在職的你說一個在職的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話\n312794\t333139\t這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看法呢沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資因為我也不認為退休金是低延工資那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎\n336846\t337406\t三（委員張智倫等19人擬具\n360100\t360561\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n376375\t402248\t這兩朋友重新再提出來啊我覺得博登你應該有很大的一個感慨啦就是說本來大家在想說年金破產看有沒有辦法變成一個歷史的一個名詞一個健全的一個制度的一個讓他體質更好那讓所有的讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員都可以確定領到退休這個其實在我們台灣我們這個改革已經是展開啦那今天這個法案其實啊\n404337\t421642\t這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個公法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這裡修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031\n431445\t440157\t交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保運利潤工2011就不夠,用完的算是2020。\n448308\t468404\t我們卻改革了公交人員退伍基金的一個提撥率降低了所得替代率還有終結十八八的優惠這樣的一個存款那最後也成功地避免年金財政上走上破產之路啊看著今天這個你做會期怎麼委託這阿貝尼你現在變全序部部長總結你要怎麼看\n472679\t495720\t因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法\n496300\t523396\t那我覺得我們現在重新在2017年以後這樣一個修法一個方式一個像它是一個延續性的一個工程那我還是建議呢應該持續這個延續性的工程才能穩健這個基金讓現在還沒有退休的人跟已經退休的人都可以繼續呢受到這個基金的一個照顧是啦尤其這2700多億年改後退伍基金節省下來預租的一個金額\n524637\t550429\t這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預期是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像我剛剛提到了\n552033\t560439\t會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待各個政黨大家其實都要善思啦好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝召委,有請我們司部長。\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n所以這就限於兩難啊,就實在很難找到,所以缺口就是只好納稅人的錢來補了。您就是叫做抱歉說,我如果現在是在職的公教人員的話,你說我現在去提高,或者說我現在都不用提高,我繳的錢我一直繳一直繳,然後就變成以退休的人全部他給拿走,到最後整個基金、錢、水庫不見了,哪通呢?\n這不通嘛 這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整\n所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是呢本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞研的一個工資否則你說在職的你說一個在職的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話\n這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看法呢沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資因為我也不認為退休金是低延工資那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎\n三（委員張智倫等19人擬具\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n這兩朋友重新再提出來啊我覺得博登你應該有很大的一個感慨啦就是說本來大家在想說年金破產看有沒有辦法變成一個歷史的一個名詞一個健全的一個制度的一個讓他體質更好那讓所有的讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員都可以確定領到退休這個其實在我們台灣我們這個改革已經是展開啦那今天這個法案其實啊\n這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個公法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這裡修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031\n交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保運利潤工2011就不夠,用完的算是2020。\n我們卻改革了公交人員退伍基金的一個提撥率降低了所得替代率還有終結十八八的優惠這樣的一個存款那最後也成功地避免年金財政上走上破產之路啊看著今天這個你做會期怎麼委託這阿貝尼你現在變全序部部長總結你要怎麼看\n因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法\n那我覺得我們現在重新在2017年以後這樣一個修法一個方式一個像它是一個延續性的一個工程那我還是建議呢應該持續這個延續性的工程才能穩健這個基金讓現在還沒有退休的人跟已經退休的人都可以繼續呢受到這個基金的一個照顧是啦尤其這2700多億年改後退伍基金節省下來預租的一個金額\n這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預期是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像我剛剛提到了\n會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待各個政黨大家其實都要善思啦好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.385 --> 00:13.336\n謝謝召委,有請我們司部長。\n\n00:18.454 --> 00:26.657\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n00:45.503 --> 00:50.645\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n01:11.331 --> 01:12.892\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n01:28.222 --> 01:31.324\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n01:50.094 --> 01:58.277\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n02:11.795 --> 02:14.197\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n02:36.155 --> 02:36.936\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n02:57.301 --> 02:59.602\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n03:25.114 --> 03:25.294\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n03:50.004 --> 04:16.044\n所以這就限於兩難啊,就實在很難找到,所以缺口就是只好納稅人的錢來補了。您就是叫做抱歉說,我如果現在是在職的公教人員的話,你說我現在去提高,或者說我現在都不用提高,我繳的錢我一直繳一直繳,然後就變成以退休的人全部他給拿走,到最後整個基金、錢、水庫不見了,哪通呢?\n\n04:18.809 --> 04:31.914\n這不通嘛這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整\n\n04:43.928 --> 05:11.441\n所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是呢本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞研的一個工資否則你說在職的你說一個在職的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話\n\n05:12.794 --> 05:33.139\n這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看法呢沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資因為我也不認為退休金是低延工資那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎\n\n05:36.846 --> 05:37.406\n三（委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n06:00.100 --> 06:00.561\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n06:16.375 --> 06:42.248\n這兩朋友重新再提出來啊我覺得博登你應該有很大的一個感慨啦就是說本來大家在想說年金破產看有沒有辦法變成一個歷史的一個名詞一個健全的一個制度的一個讓他體質更好那讓所有的讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員都可以確定領到退休這個其實在我們台灣我們這個改革已經是展開啦那今天這個法案其實啊\n\n06:44.337 --> 07:01.642\n這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個公法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這裡修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031\n\n07:11.445 --> 07:20.157\n交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保運利潤工2011就不夠,用完的算是2020。\n\n07:28.308 --> 07:48.404\n我們卻改革了公交人員退伍基金的一個提撥率降低了所得替代率還有終結十八八的優惠這樣的一個存款那最後也成功地避免年金財政上走上破產之路啊看著今天這個你做會期怎麼委託這阿貝尼你現在變全序部部長總結你要怎麼看\n\n07:52.679 --> 08:15.720\n因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法\n\n08:16.300 --> 08:43.396\n那我覺得我們現在重新在2017年以後這樣一個修法一個方式一個像它是一個延續性的一個工程那我還是建議呢應該持續這個延續性的工程才能穩健這個基金讓現在還沒有退休的人跟已經退休的人都可以繼續呢受到這個基金的一個照顧是啦尤其這2700多億年改後退伍基金節省下來預租的一個金額\n\n08:44.637 --> 09:10.429\n這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預期是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像我剛剛提到了\n\n09:12.033 --> 09:20.439\n會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待各個政黨大家其實都要善思啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.385,"end":13.336,"text":"謝謝召委,有請我們司部長。"},{"start":18.454,"end":26.657,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":45.503,"end":50.645,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 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這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整"},{"start":283.928,"end":311.441,"text":"所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是呢本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞研的一個工資否則你說在職的你說一個在職的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話"},{"start":312.794,"end":333.139,"text":"這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看法呢沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資因為我也不認為退休金是低延工資那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":336.846,"end":337.406,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":360.1,"end":360.561,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":376.375,"end":402.248,"text":"這兩朋友重新再提出來啊我覺得博登你應該有很大的一個感慨啦就是說本來大家在想說年金破產看有沒有辦法變成一個歷史的一個名詞一個健全的一個制度的一個讓他體質更好那讓所有的讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員都可以確定領到退休這個其實在我們台灣我們這個改革已經是展開啦那今天這個法案其實啊"},{"start":404.337,"end":421.642,"text":"這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個公法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這裡修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031"},{"start":431.445,"end":440.157,"text":"交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保運利潤工2011就不夠,用完的算是2020。"},{"start":448.308,"end":468.404,"text":"我們卻改革了公交人員退伍基金的一個提撥率降低了所得替代率還有終結十八八的優惠這樣的一個存款那最後也成功地避免年金財政上走上破產之路啊看著今天這個你做會期怎麼委託這阿貝尼你現在變全序部部長總結你要怎麼看"},{"start":472.679,"end":495.72,"text":"因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法"},{"start":496.3,"end":523.396,"text":"那我覺得我們現在重新在2017年以後這樣一個修法一個方式一個像它是一個延續性的一個工程那我還是建議呢應該持續這個延續性的工程才能穩健這個基金讓現在還沒有退休的人跟已經退休的人都可以繼續呢受到這個基金的一個照顧是啦尤其這2700多億年改後退伍基金節省下來預租的一個金額"},{"start":524.637,"end":550.429,"text":"這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預期是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像我剛剛提到了"},{"start":552.033,"end":560.439,"text":"會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待各個政黨大家其實都要善思啦好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（13時30分）謝謝召委，有請我們施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我想今天早上到現在也聆聽了很多，從學者經歷過這麼多年，改革完以後，重新看到今天檢視這個提案，又要走到過去的一個回頭路，我相信你有很多的感慨。不管是從軍人的部分，公、教的部分，反正就是三個部分，大法官會議其實也連續做出三號解釋。這當然是屬於立法院的一個形成權，我也認為今天再來這樣一個提案的話，也是立法院的一個形成權，但是真的會很麻煩。","以整個國際趨勢來看，現在整個趨勢對於退休的部分、給付的部分，是變成大家繳得多，然後領得比較晚，然後領得越來越少，幾乎每一個國家都會碰到這樣的問題。但是我今天在看你們在答詢的時候，有一個地方你們講的不好，為什麼說你們講的不好呢？基金到最後，對於誰來負最後的責任，當然是政府來負最後支付保證的責任，但這句話的意思，其實不是說政府全攬，不是這個意思。這句話的意思是說，這個基金的成員裡面，有現職的公務人員，還有包括政府本身的一個責任，那政府所有的稅收，來自於全國的人民，這個大家都知道，哪一個政黨全部都知道，但要解決錢不夠的部分，怎麼去處理？大家都會想到開源，開源就很簡單啊！開源就是你投資賺到錢，那個也叫開源，不然就是你那個提撥比例拉高。要節流也很簡單，節流就是不要亂花，不要亂花就是節流，少領一點也是節流。如果說政府窮盡這些開源，開源就不太敢去把它再拉高，節流就是讓它慢慢降，這樣在野黨也有意見。所以就跳過開源跟節流，直接跟你說政府負最後支付的責任，這就不對了。","我今天要特別指出來的就是，這樣一個修法以後，會產生一個很大的問題。從整個政策的延續跟世代正義的角度去看的話，所得替代率逐年這樣去降1.5%，按照原本規劃是2029年所得替代率變成61.5%對吧？"],["施部長能傑：35年是60%。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，現在貿然把它停止調降以後，退撫基金這樣缺口的錢要從哪裡來？你認為優先要從哪裡來？"],["施部長能傑：要嘛就是我們投資效益能夠更好，但是這個其實因為受到很多經濟環境的影響……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["施部長能傑：所以我們在年金改革的時候，有討論到費率也應該要考慮，但是我們知道費率不可以隨便調整。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。"],["施部長能傑：所以就陷於兩難，實在很難找到，結果就是只好用納稅人的錢來補。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們就是不好意思講，我如果現在是在職的公教人員，你說我現在去提高或者說我現在都不用提高，我繳的錢一直繳、一直繳，然後變成全部給退休的人拿走，到最後整個基金的錢、水庫不見了，哪通呢？這不通嘛！這就是所謂世代正義的一個問題嘛！其他在野黨的部分，他怎麼會不知道呢？","我們在2022年做過，並提高2%提撥，今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%，總計政府提撥金額提高了6%。也就是說，按照現行規範，對於退休公務人員，確實有考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整，所以今天其他不同意見的朋友，講這個就有點言過其實。","本席還要特別指出來，除非你認為這些退休金的部分，它是一個遞延的工資，否則在職的調薪，退休的也跟著這樣去做調薪的話，這個我很難想像，我聽了真的是一頭霧水啊！部長的看法呢？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯啦！其實大法官已經解釋，退休金本來就不是遞延工資，我也不認為退休金是遞延工資。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然，裡面有一部分是優惠存款、年資的補償等等，國家提供的優待啊！不是這樣子嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對，我們過去確實都是這樣子。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以把它當成一個遞延工資，說退休的人全部也要做調漲，這個一般社會大眾會炸鍋，很難去想像。然後我看很多在野黨的朋友說：哎呦！你這幾年已經砍了兩千多億了，還要再砍下去嗎？不是。那個部分是整個年金改革以後，又把它挹注到整個基金裡面去，所以那個哪有砍的問題？還是給所有退休的公務人員啊！","所以我今天看到在野黨的朋友，重新再提出來這部法律，我覺得部長你應該有很大的感慨，本來大家想說年金破產，看有沒有辦法讓它變成一個歷史名詞。一個健全的制度，讓它體質更好，讓每一個年輕的軍公教人員，都可以確定領到退休，其實在我們臺灣，這個改革已經展開了。把今天這個法案，當成是一個對執政黨發起的攻伐，其實大可不必，這反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰，我覺得這是一個挑戰。","我看到今天修法的狀況，部長一定是感慨萬千，那時我們在說公務人員的退休制度，本來收支不足的年度是2019，基金用完是2031；教育人員的部分，收支不足的年度是2018，用完是到2029；軍職的部分，那時候說2011就不夠，用完的時候是2020。我們把它解決掉了，現在還要再走回去？我們改革了公教人員退撫基金的提撥率，降低了所得替代率，還有終結18%優惠存款，最後也成功的避免年金財政上走上破產之路。過去你身為學者，8年後你現在變銓敘部部長，總結一下你的看法。"],["施部長能傑：因為我參與過這一段歷史，那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情，那我知道這些改革本身，對任何一個當事人，當然月退休所得都會減少。但是我還是要講，月退休所得的減少部分，大部分是來自18%的優惠存款，這個是社會上有很大不一樣的看法。我覺得我們重新在2017年以後，以這樣一個修法的方式，它是一個延續性的工程，我還是建議，應該持續這個延續性的工程，才能穩健這個基金，讓現在還沒有退休跟已經退休的人，都可以繼續受到這個基金的照顧。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！尤其這兩千七百多億，年改後退撫基金節省下來挹注的金額，這些不是國家要把它拿來亂花，同樣是挹注在整個基金裡面。我真的很擔心，現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後，原本可以延長整個退撫基金的運作，本來預期是到2051年。現在修法完了以後，對整個國家財政的風險是無底洞，而且像我剛剛提到的，會跟另外一個世代再做挑戰，我在這邊期待各個政黨，大家其實都要三思，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}