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00:00:23,226\n主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長\n\n2\n00:00:27,475 --> 00:00:33,446\n召開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來\n\n3\n00:00:38,142 --> 00:00:59,216\n請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了\n\n4\n00:00:59,796 --> 00:01:09,334\n十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有\n\n5\n00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:32,414\n這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律我們就尤其是尤其是\n\n6\n00:01:33,234 --> 00:01:47,811\n本席必須要再提醒不管是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因工傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡\n\n7\n00:01:48,191 --> 00:02:04,419\n或者是積勞過度以致死亡。」對不對?那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官\n\n8\n00:02:05,646 --> 00:02:24,761\n我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下\n\n9\n00:02:25,541 --> 00:02:53,194\n今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況\n\n10\n00:02:55,031 --> 00:03:13,745\n本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障的後盾這是態度問題再來\n\n11\n00:03:15,765 --> 00:03:42,473\n部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一\n\n12\n00:03:43,733 --> 00:04:01,819\n就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續量用盡年度會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度\n\n13\n00:04:04,198 --> 00:04:21,959\n還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們打了140年部長這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設到那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產\n\n14\n00:04:27,441 --> 00:04:40,746\n法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法去來協助不讓他破產\n\n15\n00:04:41,226 --> 00:04:53,418\n所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度條件還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該盡的義務我們盡量先盡這樣子盡的義務就是這個盡的義務就是要講義務其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛我印象沒錯啊對\n\n16\n00:05:03,376 --> 00:05:04,197\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n17\n00:05:20,054 --> 00:05:39,393\n合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊\n\n18\n00:05:40,094 --> 00:06:01,554\n但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你一百零七年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年\n\n19\n00:06:02,793 --> 00:06:19,146\n我相信也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那這樣子我為國家犧牲已經犧牲了三四十年了我再犧牲可不是啊你的砍退休替代率到最後只是多延長五年\n\n20\n00:06:20,390 --> 00:06:44,158\n都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長\n\n21\n00:06:45,902 --> 00:07:09,000\n他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎\n\n22\n00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:18,302\n我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋\n\n23\n00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:22,200\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n24\n00:07:42,890 --> 00:07:54,886\n一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會長所以你講這個大道理其實我說實在話這已經變成是政令先導但過去到現在其實你回答這樣的一個部分還是沒有辦法回答本席剛剛的問題啊\n\n25\n00:07:56,550 --> 00:08:19,159\n你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這也是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點\n\n26\n00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:47,241\n最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請龍許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高三兆元以上\n\n27\n00:08:48,117 --> 00:08:50,835\n那既然我們都講說創新路的新高\n\n28\n00:08:51,932 --> 00:09:12,688\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法\n\n29\n00:09:21,663 --> 00:09:34,798\n結果我們這所謂的這個撥補的一個部分只有100多億那再者是選擇10年跟20年的一個方案是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億左右\n\n30\n00:09:37,422 --> 00:09:37,923\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案\n\n31\n00:09:54,682 --> 00:10:04,205\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n32\n00:10:23,166 --> 00:10:24,327\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n33\n00:10:37,060 --> 00:10:54,995\n當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長\n\n34\n00:10:58,735 --> 00:11:25,351\n尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在那邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整\n\n35\n00:11:26,803 --> 00:11:27,023\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n36\n00:11:57,154 --> 00:11:58,875\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n37\n00:12:13,118 --> 00:12:35,485\n當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來質詢只是要講\n\n38\n00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:38,649\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7169\t23226\t主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長\n27475\t33446\t召開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來\n38142\t59216\t請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了\n59796\t69334\t十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有\n70439\t92414\t這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律我們就尤其是尤其是\n93234\t107811\t本席必須要再提醒不管是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因工傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡\n108191\t124419\t或者是積勞過度以致死亡。」對不對?那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官\n125646\t144761\t我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下\n145541\t173194\t今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況\n175031\t193745\t本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障的後盾這是態度問題再來\n195765\t222473\t部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一\n223733\t241819\t就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續量用盡年度會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度\n244198\t261959\t還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們打了140年部長這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設到那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產\n267441\t280746\t法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法去來協助不讓他破產\n281226\t293418\t所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度條件還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該盡的義務我們盡量先盡這樣子盡的義務就是這個盡的義務就是要講義務其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛我印象沒錯啊對\n303376\t304197\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n320054\t339393\t合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊\n340094\t361554\t但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你一百零七年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年\n362793\t379146\t我相信也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那這樣子我為國家犧牲已經犧牲了三四十年了我再犧牲可不是啊你的砍退休替代率到最後只是多延長五年\n380390\t404158\t都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長\n405902\t429000\t他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎\n429420\t438302\t我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋\n441400\t442200\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n462890\t474886\t一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會長所以你講這個大道理其實我說實在話這已經變成是政令先導但過去到現在其實你回答這樣的一個部分還是沒有辦法回答本席剛剛的問題啊\n476550\t499159\t你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這也是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點\n500319\t527241\t最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請龍許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高三兆元以上\n528117\t530835\t那既然我們都講說創新路的新高\n531932\t552688\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法\n561663\t574798\t結果我們這所謂的這個撥補的一個部分只有100多億那再者是選擇10年跟20年的一個方案是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億左右\n577422\t577923\t撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案\n594682\t604205\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n623166\t624327\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n637060\t654995\t當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長\n658735\t685351\t尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在那邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整\n686803\t687023\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n717154\t718875\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n733118\t755485\t當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來質詢只是要講\n758069\t758649\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長\n召開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來\n請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了\n十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有\n這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律我們就尤其是尤其是\n本席必須要再提醒不管是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因工傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡\n或者是積勞過度以致死亡。」對不對?那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官\n我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下\n今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況\n本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障的後盾這是態度問題再來\n部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一\n就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續量用盡年度會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度\n還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們打了140年部長這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設到那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產\n法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法去來協助不讓他破產\n所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度條件還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該盡的義務我們盡量先盡這樣子盡的義務就是這個盡的義務就是要講義務其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛我印象沒錯啊對\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊\n但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你一百零七年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年\n我相信也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那這樣子我為國家犧牲已經犧牲了三四十年了我再犧牲可不是啊你的砍退休替代率到最後只是多延長五年\n都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長\n他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎\n我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會長所以你講這個大道理其實我說實在話這已經變成是政令先導但過去到現在其實你回答這樣的一個部分還是沒有辦法回答本席剛剛的問題啊\n你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這也是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點\n最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請龍許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高三兆元以上\n那既然我們都講說創新路的新高\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法\n結果我們這所謂的這個撥補的一個部分只有100多億那再者是選擇10年跟20年的一個方案是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億左右\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長\n尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在那邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來質詢只是要講\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.169 --> 00:23.226\n主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長\n\n00:27.475 --> 00:33.446\n召開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來\n\n00:38.142 --> 00:59.216\n請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了\n\n00:59.796 --> 01:09.334\n十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有\n\n01:10.439 --> 01:32.414\n這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律我們就尤其是尤其是\n\n01:33.234 --> 01:47.811\n本席必須要再提醒不管是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因工傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡\n\n01:48.191 --> 02:04.419\n或者是積勞過度以致死亡。」對不對?那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官\n\n02:05.646 --> 02:24.761\n我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下\n\n02:25.541 --> 02:53.194\n今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況\n\n02:55.031 --> 03:13.745\n本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障的後盾這是態度問題再來\n\n03:15.765 --> 03:42.473\n部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一\n\n03:43.733 --> 04:01.819\n就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續量用盡年度會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度\n\n04:04.198 --> 04:21.959\n還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們打了140年部長這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設到那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產\n\n04:27.441 --> 04:40.746\n法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法去來協助不讓他破產\n\n04:41.226 --> 04:53.418\n所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度條件還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該盡的義務我們盡量先盡這樣子盡的義務就是這個盡的義務就是要講義務其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛我印象沒錯啊對\n\n05:03.376 --> 05:04.197\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n05:20.054 --> 05:39.393\n合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊\n\n05:40.094 --> 06:01.554\n但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你一百零七年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年\n\n06:02.793 --> 06:19.146\n我相信也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那這樣子我為國家犧牲已經犧牲了三四十年了我再犧牲可不是啊你的砍退休替代率到最後只是多延長五年\n\n06:20.390 --> 06:44.158\n都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長\n\n06:45.902 --> 07:09.000\n他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎\n\n07:09.420 --> 07:18.302\n我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋\n\n07:21.400 --> 07:22.200\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n07:42.890 --> 07:54.886\n一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會長所以你講這個大道理其實我說實在話這已經變成是政令先導但過去到現在其實你回答這樣的一個部分還是沒有辦法回答本席剛剛的問題啊\n\n07:56.550 --> 08:19.159\n你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這也是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點\n\n08:20.319 --> 08:47.241\n最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請龍許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高三兆元以上\n\n08:48.117 --> 08:50.835\n那既然我們都講說創新路的新高\n\n08:51.932 --> 09:12.688\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法\n\n09:21.663 --> 09:34.798\n結果我們這所謂的這個撥補的一個部分只有100多億那再者是選擇10年跟20年的一個方案是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億左右\n\n09:37.422 --> 09:37.923\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案\n\n09:54.682 --> 10:04.205\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n10:23.166 --> 10:24.327\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n10:37.060 --> 10:54.995\n當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長\n\n10:58.735 --> 11:25.351\n尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在那邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整\n\n11:26.803 --> 11:27.023\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n11:57.154 --> 11:58.875\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n12:13.118 --> 12:35.485\n當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來質詢只是要講\n\n12:38.069 --> 12:38.649\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.169,"end":23.226,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長"},{"start":27.475,"end":33.446,"text":"召開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來"},{"start":38.142,"end":59.216,"text":"請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了"},{"start":59.796,"end":69.334,"text":"十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有"},{"start":70.439,"end":92.414,"text":"這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律我們就尤其是尤其是"},{"start":93.234,"end":107.811,"text":"本席必須要再提醒不管是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因工傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡"},{"start":108.191,"end":124.419,"text":"或者是積勞過度以致死亡。」對不對?那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官"},{"start":125.646,"end":144.761,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下"},{"start":145.541,"end":173.194,"text":"今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況"},{"start":175.031,"end":193.745,"text":"本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障的後盾這是態度問題再來"},{"start":195.765,"end":222.473,"text":"部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一"},{"start":223.733,"end":241.819,"text":"就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續量用盡年度會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度"},{"start":244.198,"end":261.959,"text":"還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們打了140年部長這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設到那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產"},{"start":267.441,"end":280.746,"text":"法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法去來協助不讓他破產"},{"start":281.226,"end":293.418,"text":"所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度條件還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該盡的義務我們盡量先盡這樣子盡的義務就是這個盡的義務就是要講義務其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛我印象沒錯啊對"},{"start":303.376,"end":304.197,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":320.054,"end":339.393,"text":"合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊"},{"start":340.094,"end":361.554,"text":"但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你一百零七年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年"},{"start":362.793,"end":379.146,"text":"我相信也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那這樣子我為國家犧牲已經犧牲了三四十年了我再犧牲可不是啊你的砍退休替代率到最後只是多延長五年"},{"start":380.39,"end":404.158,"text":"都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長"},{"start":405.902,"end":429,"text":"他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎"},{"start":429.42,"end":438.302,"text":"我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋"},{"start":441.4,"end":442.2,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":462.89,"end":474.886,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會長所以你講這個大道理其實我說實在話這已經變成是政令先導但過去到現在其實你回答這樣的一個部分還是沒有辦法回答本席剛剛的問題啊"},{"start":476.55,"end":499.159,"text":"你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這也是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點"},{"start":500.319,"end":527.241,"text":"最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請龍許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高三兆元以上"},{"start":528.117,"end":530.835,"text":"那既然我們都講說創新路的新高"},{"start":531.932,"end":552.688,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法"},{"start":561.663,"end":574.798,"text":"結果我們這所謂的這個撥補的一個部分只有100多億那再者是選擇10年跟20年的一個方案是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億左右"},{"start":577.422,"end":577.923,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":594.682,"end":604.205,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":623.166,"end":624.327,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":637.06,"end":654.995,"text":"當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長"},{"start":658.735,"end":685.351,"text":"尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在那邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整"},{"start":686.803,"end":687.023,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":717.154,"end":718.875,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":733.118,"end":755.485,"text":"當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來質詢只是要講"},{"start":758.069,"end":758.649,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":914,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時59分）主席謝謝，麻煩請施能傑部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我先確認一下，因為本席也非常關心在11月4日不幸離開的勞動部吳姓公務人員。11月20日勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長召開記者會，向國人正式說明，要頒發勞動獎章給吳姓公務人員，並且請考試院這邊協助認定因公傷亡。到目前為止，考試院都沒有收到相關的申請？"],["施部長能傑：沒有，我部裡面沒有收到這個案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是打假球還是怎麼樣？勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟？我們全國矚目焦點，到現在一個多月過去了，11月4日人家離開，到現在12月5日，一個多月的時間，結果到目前為止，勞動部說要幫他做相關的申請，全部都沒有。"],["施部長能傑：這個我不能代替勞動部回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想請教，你也了解這個案件吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，我了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果這個案件之後送到考試院的話，我們會有什麼樣的處置？"],["施部長能傑：法律上本來規定，我們部裡面一定會組成因公撫卹的審查小組，我們就由小組來專業性的審查，我們根據法律。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其本席必須要再提醒，不管是公務人員撫卹法，或是公務人員因公傷殘、死亡慰問金的相關辦法，其實都有執行公務、公差，在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡，或者是積勞過度以致死亡，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，他有幾個……"],["洪委員孟楷：在這個案件裡面，其實我們都看得非常清楚，這位吳姓公務人員其實是長期遭受到，不管是精神的、言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為，而且是直接來自於他的上級長官。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我想您剛剛講的就是我們審查的一些條款，要符合那些條款，所以事實是怎麼樣，個案是怎麼樣，就需要由勞動部提供我們資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，因為現在外界已經點名了，說要跟考試院爭取，但到目前沒有收到。"],["施部長能傑：對，沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有需要也跟勞動部問一下？今天能不能跟勞動部問一下？這個案件我想不用我們高高在上等到勞動部，如果勞動部要打假球，你也要問勞動部說，你們態度到底為何？不是說對外部長、次長開記者會，好像要幫吳姓公務人員討公道，結果實際上根本沒做。部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下，他什麼時候要送案件來？"],["施部長能傑：我們來瞭解一下勞動部的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席會持續追這個案件，我們也希望這不只是為單一個人，這是中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件：第一、不可以霸凌；第二、如果真的有相關霸凌的話，政府還是能夠有相當的保障跟後盾，這是態度問題。再來，剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就是今天我們所謂的退輔基金相關事宜，我一直聽到你用幾個用辭以及執政黨委員用護航的方式說「要永續」、「不走回頭路」、「年金改革」、「要國家長遠發展」，結果你們的報告第4頁的修法議題一，開宗明義就講如果真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話，那退輔基金──你第一句怎麼說的？"],["施部長能傑：財務永續用罄年度會提早4到5年。"],["洪委員孟楷：提早4到5年，所以換言之不改的話，我們用盡的年度……"],["施部長能傑：依清算上次的計算……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是會用盡，還是會破產？"],["施部長能傑：所有年金都要定期檢討，我想全世界都是一樣，只是我們達到140年。"],["洪委員孟楷：那本席請教一下，我們政府會不會讓年金破產？假設現在都不變，到了那個年度，我們會不會讓它破產？法律會不會讓它用完？"],["施部長能傑：法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，政府有最後一個責任嘛！所以是不是政府也不會讓它破產？或者我們會想盡辦法，用其他的方式去代替，或用其他辦法來協助不讓它破產？是不是？"],["施部長能傑：所以我們現在年金改革就是走到分年度調降還有其他措施都正在執行中，我們就繼續來執行，我講的就是說我們應該盡的義務我們儘量先盡到。"],["洪委員孟楷：盡的義務？要講義務，其實部長你以前也當過人事長嘛！我印象沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：要講義務，不管是20年、30年，我們現在所有優秀的公務同仁，不管是在職或是退休的公務同仁，他們都認為是政府依法給予相關的退休金，當我跟政府簽下合約的那一刻，當我擔任公務人員那一刻，我的權利、我的責任是幫國家做事，不分黨派、不分朝野，只要政府在的一天，我要幫政府、幫國家、幫人民做事，但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的退休金來保障我的退休生活啊！但怎麼也沒想到有一天突然間，107年的時候告訴我說「抱歉！我要把你的退休金給砍掉、給你減少」，而且減少、砍的還變成是由你們自己規劃，如果你的減少、你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續，無虞百年，我想也許有一些公務同仁會覺得說那我是為國家犧牲，已經犧牲了三、四十年了，我再犧牲一點，可是不是啊！你們砍了退休替代率到最後只是多延長5年、多延長6年，然後你跟我講到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法去做，那你不就是講假的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：再者，我再請教部長，對勞保基金，勞動部部長也直接講了說撥補也是一種改革，這位前勞動部部長（他已經下台了）上任時，在801會議室衛環委員會中第一次被質詢時的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革，他說撥補也是一種改革，換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展，這樣子的話，相對於我們軍公教人員，不就是差別待遇嗎？"],["施部長能傑：委員，在過去這幾年，我們因為年金改革省下了二千七百七十幾億元，都全數回到基金裡面，並不是進到政府的口袋。我的意思是我們只是在整個財務改革過程裡面，政府跟我們所有公務人員一起來善盡責任，大家一起來維護。至於改革的金額、權數都是法律規定怎麼改、怎麼調整，全部都調回去給基金，所以我們基金當初才預期能夠維持到140年。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講的這些大道理，我說實在話這已經變成是政令宣導了，但從過去到現在，其實你這樣的答復還是沒有辦法回答本席剛才的問題，你剛剛講這些東西你都瞭解這等於是教科書的一個範本答復，重點在於對個別退休公務人員你的責任跟義務，當初你們怎麼跟人家講的？最後你這樣改了，結果你的年金改革又沒有辦法做到永續，永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點。最後我想請教，因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心這個10年、20年的部分，你有提到說我們有提出來了，但是請行政院來做審理時，行政院以20年來計算，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們這邊做了什麼努力？請容許本席提醒喔！各位不要忘記了，行政院編列總預算的時候，明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高─3兆元以上。既然我們都講是創紀錄的新高，整個費用完全的提升，那當然在審理、編列的時候應該會考慮有一些預算是不是能夠把錢花在刀口上，有一些預算可能是各部門就已經認為說沒有必要花費的，宣傳費用那麼的多，然後其他行政費用那麼的高，台電補貼1,000億元，明年再補貼1,000億元，兩次就是2,000億元，結果我們所謂的撥補部分只有一百多億元。選擇10年跟20年的方案，是不是以這樣子的推估方法會多增加國庫支出710億元左右？這也是你們推算的。"],["施部長能傑：如果儘早撥補和分成10年跟20年當然一定會有差異，不過我想我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席問的是你們在這個過程裡面做了什麼樣的努力？"],["施部長能傑：我們跟主計總處說明相關的這些議題，所以明年補助的金額就比第一次補助高。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們只有跟主計總處講，也沒有跟行政院講，也沒有請考試院來跟行政院溝通，那麼重要的事情，要讓國家再多付出710億元，不是710元，不是710萬元，是710億元耶！然後國家整個行政部門可以把它的錢放在其他部分，宣傳費用也要增加，宣傳費用一次增加將近一倍耶！結果我們對於軍公教相關這些基金的撥補反而要選擇一個20年的方案。當家才知持家難啊！但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這8年，持家持得非常爛！爛到我們的財政紀律不好，導致我們的錢沒有花在刀口上，真正該用的不用，不該用的拼命用，這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到的悲哀啊！說實在話，部長，我尊重你過去是學者，但本席要在這邊很誠摯的講，就是在討論這個制度時，不是跟著執政黨的委員在那邊附和，說不要走回頭路，就回應對對對，說什麼會永續，就回說對對對，沒有永續啊！其實如果設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成，只是為了2017年做的事情不願意再調整，我覺得這樣很遺憾！還有最重要的，您之前當過人事長，所以我一定要再點一句，為什麼2012年公務人員的報考有14萬6,000人，到了2022年只剩7萬1,000人，腰斬了一半50%？為什麼優秀的同仁、優秀的2,350萬人中沒有人想要來考公務員？其實有一個很大的關鍵重點，就是因為過去認為公務員是鐵飯碗，我辛苦在前但是我相對比較輕鬆、比較不用憂慮生活負擔在後，但沒想到2017年會做這樣的一個年金改革，真的，你去看那個數據，2017年之後的比例跟2017年以前確實有差距，當然也有很多其他因素，但我必須要說，有很多人到最後會卻步，不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因，確實是因為年金改革，他沒有想到政府這個全中華民國最大的老闆、最大的雇主也可以說話不算話，也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約。所以本席今天提出來質詢，只是要講不是政治意識型態治國，我們都希望國家永續，都希望臺灣更好，我們都希望我們可以更好的往財務永健的方向邁進，但如果說浪費一堆，結果真的該花的、該用的、該做的我們在那邊錙銖必較的話，我覺得這不是國家應該有的態度。謝謝！"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}