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\"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 139.599, \"end\": 139.759, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 139.759, \"end\": 139.859, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 139.859, \"end\": 139.879, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 139.879, \"end\": 139.939, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 139.939, \"end\": 140.039, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"．\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 140.039, \"end\": 140.079, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 140.079, \"end\": 140.119, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 140.119, \"end\": 140.279, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 140.279, \"end\": 140.339, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"屆\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 140.339, \"end\": 140.46, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, 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00:01:21,870\n改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身\n\n5\n00:01:23,310 --> 00:01:40,820\n當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法\n\n6\n00:01:41,320 --> 00:02:00,192\n但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立\n\n7\n00:02:01,713 --> 00:02:18,018\n然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況\n\n8\n00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:27,904\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n9\n00:02:42,608 --> 00:02:50,411\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n10\n00:03:08,752 --> 00:03:32,038\n那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點\n\n11\n00:03:33,004 --> 00:04:01,622\n退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟\n\n12\n00:04:02,654 --> 00:04:08,019\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n13\n00:04:27,518 --> 00:04:55,319\n那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法\n\n14\n00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:56,099\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n15\n00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:38,172\n前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫\n\n16\n00:05:39,893 --> 00:06:07,151\n那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦\n\n17\n00:06:07,992 --> 00:06:22,375\n然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:23,797 --> 00:06:25,237\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n19\n00:06:50,031 --> 00:07:06,583\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n\n20\n00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:21,112\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會\n\n21\n00:07:36,325 --> 00:07:50,220\n那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個\n\n22\n00:07:53,544 --> 00:07:54,144\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n23\n00:08:21,243 --> 00:08:27,188\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n24\n00:08:50,799 --> 00:09:14,537\n我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活\n\n25\n00:09:15,157 --> 00:09:42,617\n可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下\n\n26\n00:09:44,339 --> 00:10:10,149\n一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說\n\n27\n00:10:12,671 --> 00:10:34,695\n退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n28\n00:10:41,074 --> 00:10:45,161\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n29\n00:10:56,632 --> 00:11:23,420\n這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行\n\n30\n00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:47,401\n我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠\n\n31\n00:11:48,382 --> 00:11:50,883\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n32\n00:12:10,174 --> 00:12:28,740\n稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產\n\n33\n00:12:30,020 --> 00:12:51,896\n那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人\n\n34\n00:12:53,234 --> 00:13:20,473\n每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%\n\n35\n00:13:24,669 --> 00:13:39,941\n實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方\n\n36\n00:13:40,481 --> 00:14:03,668\n那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那\n\n37\n00:14:06,046 --> 00:14:27,375\n這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的\n\n38\n00:14:30,267 --> 00:14:37,335\n但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t4820\t吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長\n10256\t32271\t委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嘛那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嘛所以\n36247\t37008\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n54838\t81870\t改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身\n83310\t100820\t當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法\n101320\t120192\t但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立\n121713\t138018\t然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況\n139599\t147904\t條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n162608\t170411\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n188752\t212038\t那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點\n213004\t241622\t退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟\n242654\t248019\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n267518\t295319\t那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法\n295759\t296099\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n312800\t338172\t前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫\n339893\t367151\t那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦\n367992\t382375\t然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?\n383797\t385237\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n410031\t426583\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n436630\t441112\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會\n456325\t470220\t那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個\n473544\t474144\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n501243\t507188\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n530799\t554537\t我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活\n555157\t582617\t可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下\n584339\t610149\t一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說\n612671\t634695\t退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n641074\t645161\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n656632\t683420\t這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行\n683920\t707401\t我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠\n708382\t710883\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n730174\t748740\t稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產\n750020\t771896\t那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人\n773234\t800473\t每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%\n804669\t819941\t實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方\n820481\t843668\t那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那\n846046\t867375\t這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的\n870267\t877335\t但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。\n","txt":"吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長\n委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嘛那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嘛所以\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身\n當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法\n但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立\n然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點\n退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫\n那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦\n然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會\n那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活\n可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下\n一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說\n退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行\n我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產\n那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人\n每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%\n實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方\n那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那\n這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的\n但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:04.820\n吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長\n\n00:10.256 --> 00:32.271\n委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嘛那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嘛所以\n\n00:36.247 --> 00:37.008\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n00:54.838 --> 01:21.870\n改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身\n\n01:23.310 --> 01:40.820\n當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法\n\n01:41.320 --> 02:00.192\n但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立\n\n02:01.713 --> 02:18.018\n然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況\n\n02:19.599 --> 02:27.904\n條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n02:42.608 --> 02:50.411\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n03:08.752 --> 03:32.038\n那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點\n\n03:33.004 --> 04:01.622\n退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟\n\n04:02.654 --> 04:08.019\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n04:27.518 --> 04:55.319\n那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法\n\n04:55.759 --> 04:56.099\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n05:12.800 --> 05:38.172\n前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫\n\n05:39.893 --> 06:07.151\n那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦\n\n06:07.992 --> 06:22.375\n然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?\n\n06:23.797 --> 06:25.237\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n06:50.031 --> 07:06.583\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n\n07:16.630 --> 07:21.112\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會\n\n07:36.325 --> 07:50.220\n那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個\n\n07:53.544 --> 07:54.144\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n08:21.243 --> 08:27.188\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n08:50.799 --> 09:14.537\n我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活\n\n09:15.157 --> 09:42.617\n可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下\n\n09:44.339 --> 10:10.149\n一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說\n\n10:12.671 --> 10:34.695\n退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n\n10:41.074 --> 10:45.161\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n10:56.632 --> 11:23.420\n這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行\n\n11:23.920 --> 11:47.401\n我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠\n\n11:48.382 --> 11:50.883\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n12:10.174 --> 12:28.740\n稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產\n\n12:30.020 --> 12:51.896\n那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人\n\n12:53.234 --> 13:20.473\n每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%\n\n13:24.669 --> 13:39.941\n實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方\n\n13:40.481 --> 14:03.668\n那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那\n\n14:06.046 --> 14:27.375\n這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的\n\n14:30.267 --> 14:37.335\n但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":4.82,"text":"吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長"},{"start":10.256,"end":32.271,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嘛那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嘛所以"},{"start":36.247,"end":37.008,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":54.838,"end":81.87,"text":"改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論那其實這段時間啊你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身"},{"start":83.31,"end":100.82,"text":"當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法"},{"start":101.32,"end":120.192,"text":"但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立"},{"start":121.713,"end":138.018,"text":"然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況"},{"start":139.599,"end":147.904,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":162.608,"end":170.411,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":188.752,"end":212.038,"text":"那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點"},{"start":213.004,"end":241.622,"text":"退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題啦然後我們又回過頭來看政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠可是呢我們看了一下2022年超收將近五千億然後還要發六千元的現金回去然後2023年他又超收超增3671億然後今年也預估是四千億那在這個情況下如果我們再跟"},{"start":242.654,"end":248.019,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":267.518,"end":295.319,"text":"那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法"},{"start":295.759,"end":296.099,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":312.8,"end":338.172,"text":"前勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫"},{"start":339.893,"end":367.151,"text":"那我手上的資料是這樣就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦"},{"start":367.992,"end":382.375,"text":"然後退撫基因現在又面臨到沒有新人提撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?"},{"start":383.797,"end":385.237,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":410.031,"end":426.583,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":436.63,"end":441.112,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":456.325,"end":470.22,"text":"那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個"},{"start":473.544,"end":474.144,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":501.243,"end":507.188,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":530.799,"end":554.537,"text":"我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活"},{"start":555.157,"end":582.617,"text":"可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我要這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果這客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下"},{"start":584.339,"end":610.149,"text":"一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說"},{"start":612.671,"end":634.695,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":641.074,"end":645.161,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":656.632,"end":683.42,"text":"這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行"},{"start":683.92,"end":707.401,"text":"我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠"},{"start":708.382,"end":710.883,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":730.174,"end":748.74,"text":"稍後目的有人猜說是為了階級對立事對選票有幫助那我們先不講那個負面的我們光從說如果政府的錢不夠希望改革但是這個也沒話說但是當政府錢多到需要再退還去給人民的時候你卻告訴我說錢不夠我如果再改回來會破產"},{"start":750.02,"end":771.896,"text":"那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人"},{"start":773.234,"end":800.473,"text":"每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是一個明目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%"},{"start":804.669,"end":819.941,"text":"實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方"},{"start":820.481,"end":843.668,"text":"那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那"},{"start":846.046,"end":867.375,"text":"這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":870.267,"end":877.335,"text":"但對公務員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話。好,那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":972,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（14時18分）我們麻煩部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長。我們今天的主題是年金改革的問題，2017年那個時候進行年金的改革，當年說是國家沒錢，需要做這樣的改革，但其實那一年我們還弄了一個1兆元的前瞻基礎建設計畫，所以國家是真的沒錢還是只是一個議題上的操作？不過這是很久以前的事了，但是這個東西，不管當時的想法是什麼，公務員總是受到了影響。這段時間我們國民黨黨團有提出一些改革的想法以及改革的修法建議，我們辦公室也接到很多的電話，有人支持有人反對，但這是一個公共的議題，我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論。你想想看，其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題，大家都支持，但是有時候我們會想到一個人他一輩子為國家奉獻很久，比如部長你也是公務員出身，我也是公務員出身，當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候本來就已經很清楚，就是公務員他在任的時候其實沒有很好的薪水所得，但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活，這是很多當年選擇公務員職務的人都有的想法，但是國家如果這樣變動之後，是不是其實會變成相當於一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲？會讓很多人覺得很慌亂，感覺生活一下子受到影響。再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西，其實造成了很多族群的對立、階級的對立，然後又因為當時的執政黨用力去宣傳，所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象，然後政府也背負了人民覺得你怎麼這麼不守信用的名聲。我想如果今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況，比如有一間公司跟他的員工講好你的薪水多少、退休金比例怎麼樣，那是它既定的政策，如果說某一年這個公司突然變了，我相信政府也一定會去介入，會去瞭解到底怎麼可以做這種事情。那從2017年這個年金改革開始到現在，本來一開始考試院所提的是80%降到70%就停止，每年降1%，但後來在民進黨的主導之下，變成從75%開始，每年降1.5%，降到60%，其實降到60%是還滿嚴重的，會對很多人原本的使用不管是要繳房貸或者是他生活退休金的使用，其實都會有非常嚴重的影響。因為你想只剩下六成的話，其實生活都會出問題，如果今天公務員在他入職的時候就知道將來會有這個狀況發生，我覺得這就還好，就像現在新進的公務員入職時就知道以後的問題，當然你要選擇那你就要承受，可是很多的公務員尤其是現在退休的公務員……","麻煩安靜一點。","退休的公務員……不好意思，可以小聲一點嗎？","退休的公務員他們等於是在毫無防備之下就必須面臨這個問題，然後我們回過頭來看，政府當時告訴我們是說錢不夠，可是我們看了一下，2022年超徵將近5,000億，然後還發6,000元的現金回去；2023年又超徵3,671億；今年也預估是4,000億。在這個情況下如果我們再跟公務員說我們是沒有錢，或者是有一些側翼現在開始就說我們在走回頭路，這個說法是對的嗎？所以這就是為什麼國民黨會希望提出停止所得替代率逐年降低的一個主因，我想這是公共議題的討論，我們就是提出我們的質疑點是這個。甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例第六十五條之四？我們現在對於公務員的部分是4年檢討一次，可是我們可不可以仿效一下勞保條例，如果CPI的變動超過2的時候就要去適時調整？我想這個可能要請考試院這邊也思考一下，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為它不是沒有可以對照的，勞保條例本來就有這個想法，它有這個想法一定也是思考到物價的變動，是不是在面對公務員的時候我們也給他有這個，不需要一定硬性4年才檢討一次，而是在CPI超過2的時候就應該要去檢討。","我想請問一下，因為前勞動部長何佩珊有說撥補也是一種勞保年金改革的方式，那我想說撥補是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候，以前就是不足額部分由政府完全分年做提撥。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我手上的資料是這樣，當然確實是有撥補過兩次，114年有編列194億、113年100億，但是這兩年的撥補數額都不到1年的差額，就是它補進去但是離需求還是差距很遠。我不否定有撥補，但是確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別，然後退撫基金現在又面臨沒有新人提撥缺口，而且還有原本的虧損壓力，它等於是雙重的壓力進來，所以這個差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎？"],["施部長能傑：屬於新制的部分現在就是根據法律政府一定要分年撥補，政府今年的預算就是以20年的概念在做撥補，我們希望它明年以後至少都比這個還好，我們來努力跟主計總處做溝通。我想這大概就是剛剛委員也提到的，我們的基金就是因為有獨立新制出來，再加上如果停止的話它就會提早結束，所以我做為銓敘部部長最重要的責任就是要確保基金財務能夠更健全的運作，這樣對現職的人還有退休的人才有比較好的一個照顧。所以我覺得委員提的都沒有問題，立法院本來就是就所有公共議題討論，所有的委員提案都是一種公共議題的討論，今天我在座也聆聽非常多，不同的委員也說這個以前社會有在做一些討論，如果大家再做一些往這方面的討論我覺得這我都尊重，我都覺得是蠻好的一個方式。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想其實商場上常有一句話就是……","不好意思，還是要麻煩小聲一點，因為會干擾到我思考，謝謝，不好意思。"],["主席：不好意思，時間暫停。委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低？讓委員的質詢不會被中斷。","不好意思，吳委員請。"],["吳委員宗憲：比較不好意思，可能麻煩各位，因為思緒會中斷，謝謝。","這個時代其實很多人說商場上面有一句話叫做21世紀最珍貴的是人才，但是我們會不會因為這種年金改革的錯誤政策，造成我們其實留不住最好的人才？我以法官和檢察官為例好了，法官和檢察官這幾年走掉非常多人，其實他們看來看去還是因為薪資以及工作量的問題，如果我們今天讓這個國家只剩下……如果很多二流三流的人占據公務體系的大多數的話，那他們能不能夠立出一個最好的策略？這是我所擔心的。當然現在公務體系大部分都是很不錯的人才，但是如果因為我們年金改革的問題造成只留得下比較沒有那麼好的人才，好的人才都被挖走了，這對國家的長遠發展是不是真的好？我想可能我們大家要去思考這個問題。","我講一個很簡單的例子，我自己有律師資格，當年我也在思考我要不要去律師事務所上班、去我爸爸的事務所上班，但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官，其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活，所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作，因為我希望有好的退休生活，可是如果我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了，等到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說：以前我給你的承諾都不算，你現在只能再拿六成。不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受，我這邊跟部長報告有這個問題。","所以我講一個很簡單的例子，就是任何人在選擇職業的時候，如果在客觀條件、晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下，一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度、另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度，我們在選擇的時候就會去選擇到底我比較喜歡、我傾向哪一個工作。像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活，所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的，可是如果到最後突然變成跟我說那都不算了，退休只剩下六成，其實說真的我也沒有辦法接受，我對我的家人也沒有辦法交代，但是那個時候我已經65或70歲了，我也無能為力，所以這樣是不是對於公務員的保障真的是不足夠？","釋字第782號確實有提到信賴保護這個東西，但是它又認為年改因為跟公益有關，然後再加上是緩和漸進，所以就不違反信賴保護原則。我是可以理解大法官在講什麼，我可以理解，但是這個是說，如果今天國家財政真的出狀況，我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時艱；但是我剛剛我講到連續很多年都超徵幾千億，在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超徵那麼多錢，甚至還要還錢給人民了，但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢付給我當年承諾過我的退休金，然後我現在退休了，我要去打第二份工也不行，那我今天的生活真的會受影響。","所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人，這個公共議題討論上面我覺得除了公益需要思考之外，信賴保護也需要思考，甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧，因為國家是公務員的老闆，退休後的照顧足不足夠？而且這個還會反映到將來有沒有辦法吸取到第一流的人才進入政府服務，像日本、韓國、新加坡他們是採非常菁英的主義，他們希望第一流的人才留在政府裡面，政府之後會訂定一流的政策，然後其實受惠的是全體人民。如果我們今天因為年金改革，而背後目的有人猜是為了階級對立，對選票有幫助，我們先不講那個負面的，我們光從如果政府的錢不夠而希望改革，這個也沒話說；但是當政府錢多到需要再退還給人民的時候，你卻告訴我說：錢不夠，如果再改回來會破產。這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去。部長能不能夠說一些想法？因為我蠻尊敬您的，您也知道。"],["施部長能傑：我知道，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您，您知道。"],["施部長能傑：我知道，謝謝委員給我這個機會說明。我想除了財政的議題以外，我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式，因為當初的制度設計下，退休的人每個月的月所得大概可能就是現職人員的八成到九成以上，甚至有的超過現職人員，當然整體上來講，顯然是沒有任何政府或公司會這樣做的，所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式，因此就設定了所得替代率往下降，而那60%，我要再次講，60%是一個名目所得，但是因為我們透過法律計算基礎，60%換算起來差不多是70%，就是實質上是70%，即使降到118年。委員，謝謝你給我這個機會，願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋，我覺得有些事情為什麼一定要做？這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙，可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長的說明，但是我的立場還是這樣，對財務有幫忙，但是我必須說，稅金超徵那麼多年，都有幾千億，這是第一個國家財務需求的部分。但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護，當年你告訴他可以這樣，但是到後來你今天跟我說：不對啊！我當年的計算會造成什麼、什麼、什麼。這個說法對這些年邁的人他們是沒有辦法接受的，因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛，今天他的邏輯就是你說話不算話。所以這部分是我提出我的想法，然後國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題，所以側翼不可以拿來說是走回頭路或國家會破產這種話，我覺得這是不對的。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是對於公務員的照顧，國家還是要說話算話。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，部長，謝謝你今天的說明。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員，現在請吳委員回來繼續當主席。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：好，下一位我們請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}