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0.75}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 681.205, \"end\": 681.266, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 681.266, \"end\": 681.346, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 681.346, \"end\": 681.367, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,363 --> 00:00:13,884\n麻煩部長最近很多民調,你有看最近在討論說軍工價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇,你有看最近那些民調嗎?\n\n2\n00:00:33,168 --> 00:00:55,647\n大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定\n\n3\n00:00:56,874 --> 00:00:57,434\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n4\n00:01:07,486 --> 00:01:08,726\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n5\n00:01:27,298 --> 00:01:28,699\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n6\n00:01:53,200 --> 00:02:09,977\n公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把他從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年\n\n7\n00:02:16,237 --> 00:02:22,421\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n8\n00:02:44,363 --> 00:03:00,115\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n\n9\n00:03:14,195 --> 00:03:32,242\n好那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五令如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少\n\n10\n00:03:33,837 --> 00:03:41,882\n現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5%已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨多數當初通過了這個我會算一次給大家看\n\n11\n00:03:54,608 --> 00:04:19,616\n本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了5%一年1%對不對民進黨把80%的基準變成75%再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版\n\n12\n00:04:20,728 --> 00:04:49,055\n考試院是我們的主管機關阿他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對阿現在董事長考試院出來的版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是民進黨執政民進黨所謂破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人\n\n13\n00:04:50,100 --> 00:05:08,909\n回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到砍斷都為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好更重要的保定我要問你問題當初為什麼保定我問你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛對不對你也是專家\n\n14\n00:05:20,243 --> 00:05:22,427\n現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年每年都超收對不對?每個人領到6千塊啊\n\n15\n00:05:31,046 --> 00:05:53,402\n最近這五年平均操作的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候操作幾百億,有時候操作四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均操作多少錢?大致上一年,最近五年一年平均操作多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方的,中央不會受到影響\n\n16\n00:05:54,912 --> 00:05:55,753\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n17\n00:06:09,466 --> 00:06:30,286\n經過這幾年財政沒有困難嘛對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦一個是基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革真的會有困難欸寶定你會覺得那個前勞動部部長何培昌怎麼說?\n\n18\n00:06:31,311 --> 00:06:33,153\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n19\n00:06:51,032 --> 00:06:51,272\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n20\n00:07:12,026 --> 00:07:26,742\n這是第一項對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全市部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給立正呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說\n\n21\n00:07:27,563 --> 00:07:28,063\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n22\n00:07:48,055 --> 00:07:48,195\n法定人數不足\n\n23\n00:08:02,608 --> 00:08:08,071\n所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛\n\n24\n00:08:29,764 --> 00:08:30,064\n法定人數不足\n\n25\n00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:53,360\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n26\n00:09:19,966 --> 00:09:24,730\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n27\n00:09:46,730 --> 00:10:05,044\n這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國進度感冒進所以保證我們兩個是老朋友啊我們都是都過老了啦好不好我剛講的東西很簡單我講的一般民眾應該都聽得懂\n\n28\n00:10:07,366 --> 00:10:25,346\n中華民國政府不是沒錢你從這張政府總預算成長七年來成長快兩倍每年超收五年來每一年超收平均起來2700億人家更重要了人家勞動部長說多麼的力在爭取啊你是全區部長喔都去爭取這個回來好不好\n\n29\n00:10:26,187 --> 00:10:28,709\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n\n30\n00:10:52,366 --> 00:11:18,505\n能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定請多多努力好不好\n\n31\n00:11:19,066 --> 00:11:21,367\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12363\t13884\t麻煩部長最近很多民調,你有看最近在討論說軍工價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇,你有看最近那些民調嗎?\n33168\t55647\t大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定\n56874\t57434\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n67486\t68726\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n87298\t88699\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n113200\t129977\t公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把他從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年\n136237\t142421\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n164363\t180115\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n194195\t212242\t好 那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五令如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛 對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少\n213837\t221882\t現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5%已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨多數當初通過了這個我會算一次給大家看\n234608\t259616\t本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了5%一年1%對不對民進黨把80%的基準變成75%再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版\n260728\t289055\t考試院是我們的主管機關阿他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對阿現在董事長考試院出來的版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是民進黨執政民進黨所謂破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人\n290100\t308909\t回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到 砍斷都為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好 更重要的 保定我要問你問題當初為什麼 保定我問你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛 對不對你也是專家\n320243\t322427\t現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年每年都超收對不對?每個人領到6千塊啊\n331046\t353402\t最近這五年平均操作的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候操作幾百億,有時候操作四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均操作多少錢?大致上一年,最近五年一年平均操作多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方的,中央不會受到影響\n354912\t355753\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n369466\t390286\t經過這幾年財政沒有困難嘛對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦一個是基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革真的會有困難欸 寶定你會覺得那個前勞動部部長何培昌怎麼說?\n391311\t393153\t撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n411032\t411272\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n432026\t446742\t這是第一項對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全市部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給立正呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說\n447563\t448063\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n468055\t468195\t法定人數不足\n482608\t488071\t所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛\n509764\t510064\t法定人數不足\n533080\t533360\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n559966\t564730\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n586730\t605044\t這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國進度感冒進所以保證我們兩個是老朋友啊我們都是都過老了啦好不好我剛講的東西很簡單我講的一般民眾應該都聽得懂\n607366\t625346\t中華民國政府不是沒錢你從這張政府總預算成長七年來成長快兩倍每年超收五年來每一年超收平均起來2700億人家更重要了人家勞動部長說多麼的力在爭取啊你是全區部長喔都去爭取這個回來好不好\n626187\t628709\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n652366\t678505\t能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定 請多多努力好不好\n679066\t681367\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。\n","txt":"麻煩部長最近很多民調,你有看最近在討論說軍工價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇,你有看最近那些民調嗎?\n大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把他從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n好 那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五令如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛 對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少\n現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5%已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨多數當初通過了這個我會算一次給大家看\n本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了5%一年1%對不對民進黨把80%的基準變成75%再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版\n考試院是我們的主管機關阿他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對阿現在董事長考試院出來的版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是民進黨執政民進黨所謂破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人\n回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到 砍斷都為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好 更重要的 保定我要問你問題當初為什麼 保定我問你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛 對不對你也是專家\n現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年每年都超收對不對?每個人領到6千塊啊\n最近這五年平均操作的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候操作幾百億,有時候操作四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均操作多少錢?大致上一年,最近五年一年平均操作多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方的,中央不會受到影響\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n經過這幾年財政沒有困難嘛對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦一個是基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革真的會有困難欸 寶定你會覺得那個前勞動部部長何培昌怎麼說?\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n這是第一項對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全市部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給立正呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n法定人數不足\n所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛\n法定人數不足\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國進度感冒進所以保證我們兩個是老朋友啊我們都是都過老了啦好不好我剛講的東西很簡單我講的一般民眾應該都聽得懂\n中華民國政府不是沒錢你從這張政府總預算成長七年來成長快兩倍每年超收五年來每一年超收平均起來2700億人家更重要了人家勞動部長說多麼的力在爭取啊你是全區部長喔都去爭取這個回來好不好\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定 請多多努力好不好\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.363 --> 00:13.884\n麻煩部長最近很多民調,你有看最近在討論說軍工價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇,你有看最近那些民調嗎?\n\n00:33.168 --> 00:55.647\n大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定\n\n00:56.874 --> 00:57.434\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n01:07.486 --> 01:08.726\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n01:27.298 --> 01:28.699\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n01:53.200 --> 02:09.977\n公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把他從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年\n\n02:16.237 --> 02:22.421\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．\n\n02:44.363 --> 03:00.115\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫\n\n03:14.195 --> 03:32.242\n好那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五令如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少\n\n03:33.837 --> 03:41.882\n現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5%已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨多數當初通過了這個我會算一次給大家看\n\n03:54.608 --> 04:19.616\n本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了5%一年1%對不對民進黨把80%的基準變成75%再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版\n\n04:20.728 --> 04:49.055\n考試院是我們的主管機關阿他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對阿現在董事長考試院出來的版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是民進黨執政民進黨所謂破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人\n\n04:50.100 --> 05:08.909\n回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到砍斷都為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好更重要的保定我要問你問題當初為什麼保定我問你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛對不對你也是專家\n\n05:20.243 --> 05:22.427\n現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年每年都超收對不對?每個人領到6千塊啊\n\n05:31.046 --> 05:53.402\n最近這五年平均操作的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候操作幾百億,有時候操作四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均操作多少錢?大致上一年,最近五年一年平均操作多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方的,中央不會受到影響\n\n05:54.912 --> 05:55.753\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n06:09.466 --> 06:30.286\n經過這幾年財政沒有困難嘛對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦一個是基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革真的會有困難欸寶定你會覺得那個前勞動部部長何培昌怎麼說?\n\n06:31.311 --> 06:33.153\n撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n06:51.032 --> 06:51.272\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n07:12.026 --> 07:26.742\n這是第一項對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全市部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給立正呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說\n\n07:27.563 --> 07:28.063\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n07:48.055 --> 07:48.195\n法定人數不足\n\n08:02.608 --> 08:08.071\n所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛\n\n08:29.764 --> 08:30.064\n法定人數不足\n\n08:53.080 --> 08:53.360\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n09:19.966 --> 09:24.730\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n09:46.730 --> 10:05.044\n這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國進度感冒進所以保證我們兩個是老朋友啊我們都是都過老了啦好不好我剛講的東西很簡單我講的一般民眾應該都聽得懂\n\n10:07.366 --> 10:25.346\n中華民國政府不是沒錢你從這張政府總預算成長七年來成長快兩倍每年超收五年來每一年超收平均起來2700億人家更重要了人家勞動部長說多麼的力在爭取啊你是全區部長喔都去爭取這個回來好不好\n\n10:26.187 --> 10:28.709\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n\n10:52.366 --> 11:18.505\n能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定請多多努力好不好\n\n11:19.066 --> 11:21.367\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.363,"end":13.884,"text":"麻煩部長最近很多民調,你有看最近在討論說軍工價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇,你有看最近那些民調嗎?"},{"start":33.168,"end":55.647,"text":"大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定"},{"start":56.874,"end":57.434,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":67.486,"end":68.726,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":87.298,"end":88.699,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":113.2,"end":129.977,"text":"公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把他從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年"},{"start":136.237,"end":142.421,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":164.363,"end":180.115,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":194.195,"end":212.242,"text":"好 那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五令如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛 對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少"},{"start":213.837,"end":221.882,"text":"現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5%已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨多數當初通過了這個我會算一次給大家看"},{"start":234.608,"end":259.616,"text":"本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了5%一年1%對不對民進黨把80%的基準變成75%再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版"},{"start":260.728,"end":289.055,"text":"考試院是我們的主管機關阿他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對阿現在董事長考試院出來的版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是民進黨執政民進黨所謂破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人"},{"start":290.1,"end":308.909,"text":"回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到 砍斷都為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好 更重要的 保定我要問你問題當初為什麼 保定我問你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛 對不對你也是專家"},{"start":320.243,"end":322.427,"text":"現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年每年都超收對不對?每個人領到6千塊啊"},{"start":331.046,"end":353.402,"text":"最近這五年平均操作的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候操作幾百億,有時候操作四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均操作多少錢?大致上一年,最近五年一年平均操作多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方的,中央不會受到影響"},{"start":354.912,"end":355.753,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":369.466,"end":390.286,"text":"經過這幾年財政沒有困難嘛對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦一個是基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革真的會有困難欸 寶定你會覺得那個前勞動部部長何培昌怎麼說?"},{"start":391.311,"end":393.153,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":411.032,"end":411.272,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":432.026,"end":446.742,"text":"這是第一項對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全市部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給立正呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說"},{"start":447.563,"end":448.063,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":468.055,"end":468.195,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":482.608,"end":488.071,"text":"所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛"},{"start":509.764,"end":510.064,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":533.08,"end":533.36,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":559.966,"end":564.73,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":586.73,"end":605.044,"text":"這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國進度感冒進所以保證我們兩個是老朋友啊我們都是都過老了啦好不好我剛講的東西很簡單我講的一般民眾應該都聽得懂"},{"start":607.366,"end":625.346,"text":"中華民國政府不是沒錢你從這張政府總預算成長七年來成長快兩倍每年超收五年來每一年超收平均起來2700億人家更重要了人家勞動部長說多麼的力在爭取啊你是全區部長喔都去爭取這個回來好不好"},{"start":626.187,"end":628.709,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":652.366,"end":678.505,"text":"能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定 請多多努力好不好"},{"start":679.066,"end":681.367,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1014,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（14時40分）請施能傑部長。"],["主席：麻煩施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。最近很多民調在討論軍公教退休人員年金會不會砍得太兇，你有看這些最新的民調嗎？"],["施部長能傑：有些新聞會看到。"],["張委員啓楷：大概大致上維持2比1，認為砍太兇了、差不多該停了的是2，認為繼續砍的大概是1，2比1，這是最新民調的趨勢，特別是台灣民眾黨做的，對於警察跟警消人員認為砍太多了、不能再砍的比例非常非常的高。","另外我們兩個都夠老了，部長，記得當初要做年金改革的時候，在105年、106年那時候，考試院送過來這個版本是分10年，對不對？所得替代率如果服務30年是從75%，你剛才說的一開始是擔心領太多嘛，所以它把你的所得替代率從一開始就放在80%，1年減1%，對不對？到70%就要停嘛！例如你看右下角這個，如果本來是35年，它應該是1年只有降下來……降到後來只降到70%嘛；可是那段時間在審查，軍公教抗議，因為他們權益受到損害啊！所以後來通過的是段宜康提的，他說包圍越多砍越多，老實講那時候民進黨是絕對多數，通過的是民進黨的黨版啊！所以他的所得替代率是從80%開始算，得服務35年，問題是公務人員能服務35年的很少，我看今天在座很多公務員能夠考進公務系統，又可以35年退休，真的很少。要35年才可以從80%開始算，結果民進黨從75%開始砍；服務30年是從67.5%開始砍；如果服務只有25年，就從60%開始砍，你看多可憐。一開始只有25年的人，從60%開始砍，一年砍1.5%，只剩下45%。","我今天為什麼說我們兩個夠老了？如果要年金改革，主管機關是誰？最專業的是誰？就是考試院，對不對？我們要用考試院的版本，不是這樣嗎？考試院的版本跟後來被民進黨大砍的版本有兩個非常不一樣的地方，第一個考試院的這個版本比較溫和，服務35年所得替代率從80%開始，一年只降1%，到10年的時候停下來，就是70%。可是你們那時候砍的是刀刀見骨，35年的年資從75%砍到了60%，已經砍了1倍──你們從80%降到75%，已經少了5%，本來一年降1%，你變成一年1.5%，就等於乘以2！","我再問部長一個最重要的問題，你是考試院銓敘部長，考試院是主管機關也是最專業的，如果回到考試院版本，今年是第六年，應該是砍了5%，可是現在砍多少？一開始從75%開始算，5%已經砍在那邊了，經過五年又砍了7.5%，已經砍了12.5%，比考試院當初提出來的10年還多，這樣對嗎？會不會太狠？就因為民進黨當初是多數，通過了這個版本，我再算一遍給大家看。今年是第六年，應該只砍了5%，一年砍1%，對不對？可是民進黨把80%的基準變成75%，再加一年1.5%，7.5加5就12.5，比考試院本來提的版本要砍10年的，還狠！所以是不是該停下來？這是很重要的一個點。","第二點更重要，我要提醒大家，我為什麼一直在講考試院版，考試院是我們的主管機關啊，當初也有做財政會不會破產的財務評估嘛，對不對？考試院是五權分立的獨立機關，為什麼當初考試院出來的版本說不會破產，現在是民進黨執政，民進黨說會破產，考試院的名聲都要破產？請部長答應我一件事情，不是只有你，請考試院所有人回去看看，當初考試院提出來的財務評估，是用比較溫和的80%，一年1%，10年以後不會破產；為什麼現在砍這麼多，還會破產？不合理啊！更重要的是，當初為什麼要大砍軍公教人員的年金，說是財政有問題，對不對？你也是專家，請問現在財政有困難嗎？最近幾年，年年都超收，對不對？每個人都有領到6,000塊！部長知道最近5年，平均超收的金額大概多少？有時候超收幾百億，有時候四千多億、五千多億，最近這5年平均一年超收多少，部長知道這個數字嗎？"],["施部長能傑：大概幾千億吧！"],["張委員啓楷：2,700億。這也是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說財劃法的修正，中央下放給地方的，中央不會受到影響。因為最近5年來，我們的財政超收一年是2,700億，當初要年金改革，因為你說財政會破產，財政有困難，但是經過這幾年，財政沒有困難嘛，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：委員，我覺得這是兩個層次的問題，基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向，當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革，真的會有困難。"],["張委員啓楷：部長記得前勞動部部長何佩珊怎麼說嗎？撥補就是改革嘛！這幾年你是不是嚴重失職啊？你看勞工的勞退基金已經補了多少錢，你去比一下，一個禮拜內給我相關的資料……"],["施部長能傑：委員，我們年改的兩千多億都是全數撥補……"],["張委員啓楷：你在當銓敘部部長的任內，銓敘部跟考試院為軍公教爭取到多少撥補款項？你是小蝦米碰到大鯨魚嗎？當然勞工也是要被照顧的，我們沒有反對說要多撥補，可是跟它比起來，你們爭取的太少！結果你現在又說會破產……"],["施部長能傑：我想撥補真的差很大……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在邏輯上兩個最簡單的，第一個，你每年都在增加，所以當初所謂的財政困難已不存在；第二個，若去跟勞工比，勞工撥補的比你們多那麼多，身為銓敘部部長，你為什麼不去幫退休軍公教力爭呢？"],["施部長能傑：我想我們在這個過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明：基本上如果有10年的話，那當然會比較好，20年的話會多比較多；不過行政院是個大水庫，它必須要對整體的財務有一個……"],["張委員啓楷：你們的水庫是怎麼樣的……"],["施部長能傑：我再跟委員報告，這兩個真的是不一樣層次的問題，一個是基金財務的問題，一個是國家財政的問題，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：勞保基金是不是也這樣？勞工為什麼可以補那麼多？你說是不一樣的池子，沒錯，可是國家也是有補助你，只是補得比較少啊！"],["施部長能傑：我們年改所節省的2,774億全數回撥給基金，我想這也是一種撥補啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以我沒有說你不能再撥補，你聽我說，今天有一個關鍵字都是2,700億，你說你5年省了2,700億，對不對？你就說現在不能夠停下來，停下來的話，未來5年又少了2,700億。你剛剛講大水庫跟小水庫，基金是小水庫，這段時間政府有沒有從大水庫給你錢？也是有啊！我現在不是說不能進來，我說給得太少，是你嚴重失職，為了退休的軍公教你要去爭取更多，你去看看勞動部爭取到多少，所以你的層次是可以流動的嘛！你爭取太少，這是第一點。","第二點，這個池子裡面的錢，你說5年2,700億太少，現在錢就是很多啊，現在就超收，有錢嘛！所以你更要去爭取，是不是這樣？我再給你看一個數據，106年軍公教開始改革的時候，政府的錢比較少，中央政府總預算的規模才一年一兆九千多億，那時候政府確實是沒有錢，很拮据；今年多少？快三兆了！明年快要三兆一千多億。106年開始進行年金改革到現在，中央政府總預算的規模成長快兩倍，政府怎麼沒錢？從超收、從中央政府總預算快速的增加，106年不到兩兆，現在是兩兆七千多億，明年要增加四千多億，來到三兆一千多億，怎麼會沒錢？光從106年開始算到111年，所用的特別預算，大部分都是舉債的，有兩兆兩千多億。中華民國政府怎麼會沒錢！部長，我們兩個是老朋友，我們也都夠老了，我剛剛講的東西很簡單，一般民眾應該都聽得懂。中華民國政府不是沒錢，從中央政府總預算成長的過程來看，這六、七年來成長快兩倍，5年來每一年超收平均2,700億。人家勞動部部長多賣力在爭取，你是銓敘部長，多去爭取一點回來，好不好？不要讓我們的軍公教生活那麼苦，你們砍得已經太兇了，照顧勞工的同時，也把退休的軍公教照顧好。退休的軍公教照顧好以後，才會有優秀的軍公教人員進來，才能服務你跟我，服務我們中華民國，我們人民的生活會更安定嘛！我們共同努力，一方面讓退休的軍公教活得有尊嚴，能夠不要再砍他們的退休金，或是用什麼方式，一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴，讓他們的晚年所需不再受影響；另外在勞工有受到保障的同時，也要讓我們的年輕人願意進到政府體系裡面，不然願意進這個體系的人越來越少，也不是中華民國之福，部長，一起努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}