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475.741, \"end\": 475.761, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 477.182, \"end\": 477.282, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 477.282, \"end\": 477.302, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 477.302, \"end\": 477.363, \"score\": 0.604}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 477.363, \"end\": 477.543, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 477.543, \"end\": 477.563, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,967 --> 00:00:14,321\n謝謝主席我們請這個學習部副部長麻煩部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,659 --> 00:00:40,755\n部長今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的這個圖片第一個這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的\n\n3\n00:00:42,876 --> 00:01:08,951\n然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革然後呢在2012年11月的時候馬英九他說這個年金制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心\n\n4\n00:01:10,012 --> 00:01:31,133\n然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話\n\n5\n00:01:31,974 --> 00:01:33,735\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n6\n00:01:58,132 --> 00:02:00,893\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n7\n00:02:21,158 --> 00:02:23,039\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n8\n00:02:47,458 --> 00:02:51,736\n那時候民進黨這個通過這個年金改革的時候在野黨有沒有去做這個釋憲?\n\n9\n00:02:55,061 --> 00:03:15,317\n那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783那我看了一下\n\n10\n00:03:24,642 --> 00:03:45,352\n法律不受既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權,都合憲嗎?對,那個三號解釋都支持合憲,因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施,就是說知道要改,但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案,所以大法官是支持的是合憲的。\n\n11\n00:03:46,252 --> 00:03:48,033\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n12\n00:04:02,734 --> 00:04:23,542\n我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴就要把它停止第二個\n\n13\n00:04:25,923 --> 00:04:43,168\n這個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將這個CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率拿正負5%的標準再往下縮減有的到2%有的到3%不定第三為月退金給付金額緊綁連線我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短\n\n14\n00:04:46,269 --> 00:05:15,043\n那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後會有什麼樣的影響我想最終還是第一個的衝擊啦第一個因為你如果停止調降的話那未來基金預注的錢就會更少了所以大概預估有2800億在50年左右所以因此會提早用盡這個4到5年嘛我想主要是這樣一個也可能至於說我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概\n\n15\n00:05:17,065 --> 00:05:18,526\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣\n\n16\n00:05:33,427 --> 00:05:37,408\n檢討根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察\n\n17\n00:05:59,355 --> 00:05:59,375\n檢討報告\n\n18\n00:06:18,032 --> 00:06:35,448\n所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加若替代率不再降低那對於這個民間的這個勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評\n\n19\n00:06:36,485 --> 00:07:02,041\n我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人\n\n20\n00:07:03,362 --> 00:07:08,323\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n21\n00:07:27,409 --> 00:07:55,761\n那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來咧?我們其他OECD大概是50幾%到不到60那我們其實雖然降到60%但是換算成真正的實質的話大概七成啦OK好謝謝部長謝謝主席能夠讓我們充分的這一個討論這不像樓下這個內政委員會四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這個這邊是謝謝主席啊謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較\n\n22\n00:07:57,182 --> 00:07:57,563\n法定人數不足\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10967\t14321\t謝謝主席我們請這個學習部副部長麻煩部長\n19659\t40755\t部長今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的這個圖片第一個這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的\n42876\t68951\t然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革然後呢在2012年11月的時候馬英九他說這個年金制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心\n70012\t91133\t然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話\n91974\t93735\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n118132\t120893\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n141158\t143039\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n167458\t171736\t那時候民進黨這個通過這個年金改革的時候在野黨有沒有去做這個釋憲?\n175061\t195317\t那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783那我看了一下\n204642\t225352\t法律不受既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權,都合憲嗎?對,那個三號解釋都支持合憲,因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施,就是說知道要改,但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案,所以大法官是支持的是合憲的。\n226252\t228033\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n242734\t263542\t我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴就要把它停止第二個\n265923\t283168\t這個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將這個CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率拿正負5%的標準再往下縮減有的到2%有的到3%不定第三為月退金給付金額緊綁連線我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短\n286269\t315043\t那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後會有什麼樣的影響我想最終還是第一個的衝擊啦第一個因為你如果停止調降的話那未來基金預注的錢就會更少了所以大概預估有2800億在50年左右所以因此會提早用盡這個4到5年嘛我想主要是這樣一個也可能至於說我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概\n317065\t318526\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣\n333427\t337408\t檢討根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察\n359355\t359375\t檢討報告\n378032\t395448\t所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加若替代率不再降低那對於這個民間的這個勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評\n396485\t422041\t我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人\n423362\t428323\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n447409\t475761\t那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來咧?我們其他OECD大概是50幾%到不到60那我們其實雖然降到60%但是換算成真正的實質的話大概七成啦OK好 謝謝部長謝謝主席能夠讓我們充分的這一個討論這不像樓下這個內政委員會四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這個這邊是謝謝主席啊謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較\n477182\t477563\t法定人數不足\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請這個學習部副部長麻煩部長\n部長今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的這個圖片第一個這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的\n然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革然後呢在2012年11月的時候馬英九他說這個年金制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心\n然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n那時候民進黨這個通過這個年金改革的時候在野黨有沒有去做這個釋憲?\n那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783那我看了一下\n法律不受既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權,都合憲嗎?對,那個三號解釋都支持合憲,因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施,就是說知道要改,但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案,所以大法官是支持的是合憲的。\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴就要把它停止第二個\n這個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將這個CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率拿正負5%的標準再往下縮減有的到2%有的到3%不定第三為月退金給付金額緊綁連線我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短\n那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後會有什麼樣的影響我想最終還是第一個的衝擊啦第一個因為你如果停止調降的話那未來基金預注的錢就會更少了所以大概預估有2800億在50年左右所以因此會提早用盡這個4到5年嘛我想主要是這樣一個也可能至於說我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣\n檢討根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察\n檢討報告\n所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加若替代率不再降低那對於這個民間的這個勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評\n我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來咧?我們其他OECD大概是50幾%到不到60那我們其實雖然降到60%但是換算成真正的實質的話大概七成啦OK好 謝謝部長謝謝主席能夠讓我們充分的這一個討論這不像樓下這個內政委員會四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這個這邊是謝謝主席啊謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較\n法定人數不足\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.967 --> 00:14.321\n謝謝主席我們請這個學習部副部長麻煩部長\n\n00:19.659 --> 00:40.755\n部長今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的這個圖片第一個這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的\n\n00:42.876 --> 01:08.951\n然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革然後呢在2012年11月的時候馬英九他說這個年金制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心\n\n01:10.012 --> 01:31.133\n然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話\n\n01:31.974 --> 01:33.735\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n01:58.132 --> 02:00.893\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n02:21.158 --> 02:23.039\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n02:47.458 --> 02:51.736\n那時候民進黨這個通過這個年金改革的時候在野黨有沒有去做這個釋憲?\n\n02:55.061 --> 03:15.317\n那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783那我看了一下\n\n03:24.642 --> 03:45.352\n法律不受既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權,都合憲嗎?對,那個三號解釋都支持合憲,因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施,就是說知道要改,但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案,所以大法官是支持的是合憲的。\n\n03:46.252 --> 03:48.033\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n04:02.734 --> 04:23.542\n我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴就要把它停止第二個\n\n04:25.923 --> 04:43.168\n這個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將這個CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率拿正負5%的標準再往下縮減有的到2%有的到3%不定第三為月退金給付金額緊綁連線我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短\n\n04:46.269 --> 05:15.043\n那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後會有什麼樣的影響我想最終還是第一個的衝擊啦第一個因為你如果停止調降的話那未來基金預注的錢就會更少了所以大概預估有2800億在50年左右所以因此會提早用盡這個4到5年嘛我想主要是這樣一個也可能至於說我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概\n\n05:17.065 --> 05:18.526\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣\n\n05:33.427 --> 05:37.408\n檢討根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察\n\n05:59.355 --> 05:59.375\n檢討報告\n\n06:18.032 --> 06:35.448\n所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加若替代率不再降低那對於這個民間的這個勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評\n\n06:36.485 --> 07:02.041\n我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人\n\n07:03.362 --> 07:08.323\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n07:27.409 --> 07:55.761\n那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來咧?我們其他OECD大概是50幾%到不到60那我們其實雖然降到60%但是換算成真正的實質的話大概七成啦OK好謝謝部長謝謝主席能夠讓我們充分的這一個討論這不像樓下這個內政委員會四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這個這邊是謝謝主席啊謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較\n\n07:57.182 --> 07:57.563\n法定人數不足\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.967,"end":14.321,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個學習部副部長麻煩部長"},{"start":19.659,"end":40.755,"text":"部長今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的這個圖片第一個這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的"},{"start":42.876,"end":68.951,"text":"然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革然後呢在2012年11月的時候馬英九他說這個年金制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心"},{"start":70.012,"end":91.133,"text":"然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話"},{"start":91.974,"end":93.735,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":118.132,"end":120.893,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":141.158,"end":143.039,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":167.458,"end":171.736,"text":"那時候民進黨這個通過這個年金改革的時候在野黨有沒有去做這個釋憲?"},{"start":175.061,"end":195.317,"text":"那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783那我看了一下"},{"start":204.642,"end":225.352,"text":"法律不受既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權,都合憲嗎?對,那個三號解釋都支持合憲,因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施,就是說知道要改,但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案,所以大法官是支持的是合憲的。"},{"start":226.252,"end":228.033,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":242.734,"end":263.542,"text":"我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴就要把它停止第二個"},{"start":265.923,"end":283.168,"text":"這個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將這個CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率拿正負5%的標準再往下縮減有的到2%有的到3%不定第三為月退金給付金額緊綁連線我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短"},{"start":286.269,"end":315.043,"text":"那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後會有什麼樣的影響我想最終還是第一個的衝擊啦第一個因為你如果停止調降的話那未來基金預注的錢就會更少了所以大概預估有2800億在50年左右所以因此會提早用盡這個4到5年嘛我想主要是這樣一個也可能至於說我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概"},{"start":317.065,"end":318.526,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":333.427,"end":337.408,"text":"檢討根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察"},{"start":359.355,"end":359.375,"text":"檢討報告"},{"start":378.032,"end":395.448,"text":"所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加若替代率不再降低那對於這個民間的這個勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評"},{"start":396.485,"end":422.041,"text":"我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人"},{"start":423.362,"end":428.323,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":447.409,"end":475.761,"text":"那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來咧?我們其他OECD大概是50幾%到不到60那我們其實雖然降到60%但是換算成真正的實質的話大概七成啦OK好 謝謝部長謝謝主席能夠讓我們充分的這一個討論這不像樓下這個內政委員會四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這個這邊是謝謝主席啊謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較"},{"start":477.182,"end":477.563,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1044,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（14時51分）謝謝主席，請銓敘部施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。今天談年金的改革跟反改革的部分，請先看幾張圖片，第一個是馬英九當總統的時候，不好意思這照片比較黑一點，但是沒有其他的意思。他曾講過：年金改革一定要做，今天不做，明天就後悔。這是馬英九2012年在當總統的時候說的。另外一個是前副總統吳敦義在2016年說：年金改革一定要快做，否則將成為國家的未爆彈。國民黨不論是在馬英九或吳敦義的時候，都說過年金要來改革。2012年11月的時候，馬英九說：年金制度不能垮，也不會垮，政府要提出務實可行的改革方案，請國人放心；2013年1月的時候，馬英九又說了：這個年金改革，政府掛保證安心30年，疼惜下一代，並強調，若不及早改革，未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險，強調改革的迫切性。所以在國民黨執政的時候，他們也認為年金不改的話，會破產，所以一定要來改。沒想到現在民進黨執政，我們做年金改革，國民黨雖然沒有執政，但他們在國會是多數黨，馬上要把這個年金改革制度退回去，要走回頭路了！","本席看了你們的報告，年金改革從2018年7月開始，每年如果以至少500億的規模來估算，到現在為止，約6年半的時間，軍公教節省下來可挹注退撫基金的金額，可望突破3,000億大關，這個數字對不對？"],["施部長能傑：差不多是這個數字。"],["李委員坤城：就是年改省下來的這些退休金，我們挹注到退撫基金裡面，再加上政府還有撥補，所以這6年半來，你們列的年改措施的財務收益，大概超過3,000億左右？"],["施部長能傑：對，有。"],["李委員坤城：對這個退撫基金來講，有非常大的挹注嘛！"],["施部長能傑：當然是非常大的挹注。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下部長，民進黨在通過這個年金改革的時候，在野黨有沒有提釋憲？"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，在馬總統的時代，他送出法案到立法院，但是立法院並沒有完成審查，所以應該就沒有釋憲的……"],["李委員坤城：但在民進黨通過這個法案之後……"],["施部長能傑：確實是有釋憲。"],["李委員坤城：2019年8月大法官有781、782、783號解釋，本席看了一下解釋的要點，提到法律不溯既往、信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權都合憲，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，那三號解釋都支持合憲，因為我們有很多緩降的措施，就是知道要改，但是我們也提議了很多這種配套的方案，所以大法官是支持的，是合憲的。"],["李委員坤城：但是我陸陸續續聽到有些委員說，這個是違反信賴保護原則、違反比例原則，侵占人民的財產權等等，但是大法官的釋憲文裡面，都認為這部分是合憲的，是不是？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，如果按照國民黨現在想要修的這個版本來講，大概整理一下，有三個重點，第一，所得替代率因為每年降1%，從明年元旦開始停止；第二，月退休金隨著物價機制調整，當CPI消費者物價指數累積成長率達正負5%的標準，再往下縮減，有的到2%，有的到3%不定；第三，月退金給付金額檢討年限，我們是4年檢討一次，他們要縮短期間。以上三點大概就是他們的原則。我想請問部長，這個如果通過之後，會有什麼樣的影響？"],["施部長能傑：我想最重要還是第一個的衝擊，如果停止調降的話，未來能挹注基金的錢就會更少，大概預估有2,800億在50年左右，所以會提早4到5年用盡，我想主要是這樣一個……"],["李委員坤城：我看有媒體在講，如果按照國民黨版本通過的話，我們退撫基金大概會提早4到5年用盡。還有在野黨也提到檢討年限的問題，請問我們從年金改革法案通過之後，有沒有做過檢討？"],["施部長能傑：我們去年已經做過一次檢討……"],["李委員坤城：去年有做過一次檢討？"],["施部長能傑：因為法律規定5年要檢討一次，所以我們去年已經做過第一次檢討。"],["李委員坤城：檢討的內容是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：主要是建立對基金財務狀況指標的monitor，根據那個做出的結論是，基金的財務缺口還是大，每年都應該持續根據這些指標來觀察。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們有做過這個檢討了！"],["施部長能傑：對，已經在去年做了一個檢討報告。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼我聽到很多委員說這個沒有做過檢討，或是說……"],["施部長能傑：根據法律，本來就是從107年開始起算5年，也就是112年，已經完成這個檢討報告。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下部長，現在所得替代率的計算，實際上已經高於名義的替代率，部分退休者的實支金額甚至逐年增加，若替代率不再降低，對於民間的這個勞動者，還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性，該如何去做衡平呢？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得這也是我們在討論基金的時候，除了基金本身的財務面以外，很多人關心的是，那到底實際拿多少錢？我覺得這是公共議題的討論，大家應該充分討論。我們很負責任地提出報告，現在大概平均在七成以上，大概是五萬多塊以上。五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人的生活，我覺得社會上應該好好去檢視這個真的是不夠嗎？還是大家覺得說因為我不夠？我覺得這是一個公共議題的討論，因為這還涉及到跟我們民間的薪資比較，還有跟現職人員的比較，我覺得充分地把這些資訊揭露完以後，提供大院在討論這個公共議題的時候，會是一個比較好的事實基礎。"],["李委員坤城：那我們跟其他OECD國家比起來呢？"],["施部長能傑：其他OECD國家大概是五十幾個percent，不到60%；我們雖然降到60%，但換算成實質的話，大概七成啦。"],["李委員坤城：OK，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，能夠讓我們充分地討論，不像樓下的內政委員會4分鐘講一下，主席站起來就消音。在這邊謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝各位委員，因為今天人數比較多，所以我們會比較……"],["李委員坤城：不會、不會，已經比內政委員會還要好了。"],["主席：今天登記的有六十幾位委員。謝謝。下一位請王義川委員發言。因為我們今天是從1點開始開會，到現在都沒有休息，稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}