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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:20,268\n是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息,所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘。好,召委我們請部長麻煩部長\n\n2\n00:00:25,151 --> 00:00:47,962\n副總統如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了對那現在坐在這裡的公務員就怎麼辦就會很慘\n\n3\n00:00:54,642 --> 00:01:18,199\n救援產,若當時什麼都沒做,那因為當時做了一些改變,把這個替代率做了一些調整之後,那又經過這個去年的一些改變,那你們也提到說這個要用慶,要到一百三十幾年嘛,民國。\n\n4\n00:01:19,433 --> 00:01:20,355\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n5\n00:01:38,775 --> 00:02:00,797\n我們沒有具體的去評不過因為每個版本都差不了太多就要停止在今年或者是明年就停止就只差一年啦所以其實效果都差不多啦就在提早的四到五年到一百三十五年左右啦那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦\n\n6\n00:02:02,540 --> 00:02:04,082\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n7\n00:02:11,669 --> 00:02:32,915\n這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦\n\n8\n00:02:37,941 --> 00:02:56,898\n這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥對不對\n\n9\n00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:18,851\n租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。\n\n10\n00:03:19,673 --> 00:03:48,444\nOK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那一百三十五年就會掉掉本來是要可以動到八十嘛對那就是會在一三五的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk\n\n11\n00:03:49,349 --> 00:04:10,264\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n\n12\n00:04:19,714 --> 00:04:20,094\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n13\n00:04:44,011 --> 00:04:44,552\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n14\n00:05:02,568 --> 00:05:02,608\n三）委員\n\n15\n00:05:20,743 --> 00:05:22,264\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n16\n00:05:44,237 --> 00:05:45,077\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n17\n00:06:10,655 --> 00:06:28,306\n全序部人事總書中央合調一個大家算出因為這錢是公務人員的不是外購大家是公務人員的算出一個最好的方式不要說現在的公務員要越提越多去補那個已經退休的\n\n18\n00:06:28,994 --> 00:06:44,197\n已經退休了,他現在會改革後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你說的是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋,因為錢就是這麼多。\n\n19\n00:06:56,059 --> 00:06:58,641\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n20\n00:07:11,129 --> 00:07:35,563\n相關的利害關係人,你不怕找那些退休的,你也要找那些限職的。限職的你不怕找那些高級官員,你也要找那些六職等、七職等的、九職等做客廳、檢任官的、十二職的。大家各自有各自的盤算嘛,因為他們自己的生活。大家尋求一個比較好的方法,讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點。好不好?好,議長。謝謝。\n\n21\n00:07:39,106 --> 00:07:40,231\n法定人數不足\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t20268\t是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息,所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘。好,召委我們請部長麻煩部長\n25151\t47962\t副總統如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了對那現在坐在這裡的公務員就怎麼辦就會很慘\n54642\t78199\t救援產,若當時什麼都沒做,那因為當時做了一些改變,把這個替代率做了一些調整之後,那又經過這個去年的一些改變,那你們也提到說這個要用慶,要到一百三十幾年嘛,民國。\n79433\t80355\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n98775\t120797\t我們沒有具體的去評不過因為每個版本都差不了太多就要停止在今年或者是明年就停止就只差一年啦所以其實效果都差不多啦就在提早的四到五年到一百三十五年左右啦那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦\n122540\t124082\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n131669\t152915\t這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦\n157941\t176898\t這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥 對不對\n178860\t198851\t租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。\n199673\t228444\tOK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那一百三十五年就會掉掉本來是要可以動到八十嘛對那就是會在一三五的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk\n229349\t250264\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n259714\t260094\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n284011\t284552\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n302568\t302608\t三）委員\n320743\t322264\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n344237\t345077\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n370655\t388306\t全序部人事總書中央合調一個大家算出因為這錢是公務人員的不是外購大家是公務人員的算出一個最好的方式不要說現在的公務員要越提越多去補那個已經退休的\n388994\t404197\t已經退休了,他現在會改革後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你說的是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋,因為錢就是這麼多。\n416059\t418641\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n431129\t455563\t相關的利害關係人,你不怕找那些退休的,你也要找那些限職的。限職的你不怕找那些高級官員,你也要找那些六職等、七職等的、九職等做客廳、檢任官的、十二職的。大家各自有各自的盤算嘛,因為他們自己的生活。大家尋求一個比較好的方法,讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點。好不好?好,議長。謝謝。\n459106\t460231\t法定人數不足\n","txt":"是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息,所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘。好,召委我們請部長麻煩部長\n副總統如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了對那現在坐在這裡的公務員就怎麼辦就會很慘\n救援產,若當時什麼都沒做,那因為當時做了一些改變,把這個替代率做了一些調整之後,那又經過這個去年的一些改變,那你們也提到說這個要用慶,要到一百三十幾年嘛,民國。\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n我們沒有具體的去評不過因為每個版本都差不了太多就要停止在今年或者是明年就停止就只差一年啦所以其實效果都差不多啦就在提早的四到五年到一百三十五年左右啦那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦\n這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥 對不對\n租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。\nOK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那一百三十五年就會掉掉本來是要可以動到八十嘛對那就是會在一三五的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n三）委員\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n全序部人事總書中央合調一個大家算出因為這錢是公務人員的不是外購大家是公務人員的算出一個最好的方式不要說現在的公務員要越提越多去補那個已經退休的\n已經退休了,他現在會改革後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你說的是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋,因為錢就是這麼多。\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n相關的利害關係人,你不怕找那些退休的,你也要找那些限職的。限職的你不怕找那些高級官員,你也要找那些六職等、七職等的、九職等做客廳、檢任官的、十二職的。大家各自有各自的盤算嘛,因為他們自己的生活。大家尋求一個比較好的方法,讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點。好不好?好,議長。謝謝。\n法定人數不足\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:20.268\n是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息,所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘。好,召委我們請部長麻煩部長\n\n00:25.151 --> 00:47.962\n副總統如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了對那現在坐在這裡的公務員就怎麼辦就會很慘\n\n00:54.642 --> 01:18.199\n救援產,若當時什麼都沒做,那因為當時做了一些改變,把這個替代率做了一些調整之後,那又經過這個去年的一些改變,那你們也提到說這個要用慶,要到一百三十幾年嘛,民國。\n\n01:19.433 --> 01:20.355\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n01:38.775 --> 02:00.797\n我們沒有具體的去評不過因為每個版本都差不了太多就要停止在今年或者是明年就停止就只差一年啦所以其實效果都差不多啦就在提早的四到五年到一百三十五年左右啦那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦\n\n02:02.540 --> 02:04.082\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n02:11.669 --> 02:32.915\n這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦\n\n02:37.941 --> 02:56.898\n這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥對不對\n\n02:58.860 --> 03:18.851\n租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。\n\n03:19.673 --> 03:48.444\nOK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那一百三十五年就會掉掉本來是要可以動到八十嘛對那就是會在一三五的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk\n\n03:49.349 --> 04:10.264\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n\n04:19.714 --> 04:20.094\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n04:44.011 --> 04:44.552\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n05:02.568 --> 05:02.608\n三）委員\n\n05:20.743 --> 05:22.264\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n05:44.237 --> 05:45.077\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n06:10.655 --> 06:28.306\n全序部人事總書中央合調一個大家算出因為這錢是公務人員的不是外購大家是公務人員的算出一個最好的方式不要說現在的公務員要越提越多去補那個已經退休的\n\n06:28.994 --> 06:44.197\n已經退休了,他現在會改革後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你說的是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋,因為錢就是這麼多。\n\n06:56.059 --> 06:58.641\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n07:11.129 --> 07:35.563\n相關的利害關係人,你不怕找那些退休的,你也要找那些限職的。限職的你不怕找那些高級官員,你也要找那些六職等、七職等的、九職等做客廳、檢任官的、十二職的。大家各自有各自的盤算嘛,因為他們自己的生活。大家尋求一個比較好的方法,讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點。好不好?好,議長。謝謝。\n\n07:39.106 --> 07:40.231\n法定人數不足\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":20.268,"text":"是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息,所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘。好,召委我們請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":25.151,"end":47.962,"text":"副總統如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了對那現在坐在這裡的公務員就怎麼辦就會很慘"},{"start":54.642,"end":78.199,"text":"救援產,若當時什麼都沒做,那因為當時做了一些改變,把這個替代率做了一些調整之後,那又經過這個去年的一些改變,那你們也提到說這個要用慶,要到一百三十幾年嘛,民國。"},{"start":79.433,"end":80.355,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":98.775,"end":120.797,"text":"我們沒有具體的去評不過因為每個版本都差不了太多就要停止在今年或者是明年就停止就只差一年啦所以其實效果都差不多啦就在提早的四到五年到一百三十五年左右啦那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦"},{"start":122.54,"end":124.082,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":131.669,"end":152.915,"text":"這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦"},{"start":157.941,"end":176.898,"text":"這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥 對不對"},{"start":178.86,"end":198.851,"text":"租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。"},{"start":199.673,"end":228.444,"text":"OK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那一百三十五年就會掉掉本來是要可以動到八十嘛對那就是會在一三五的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk"},{"start":229.349,"end":250.264,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":259.714,"end":260.094,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":284.011,"end":284.552,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":302.568,"end":302.608,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":320.743,"end":322.264,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":344.237,"end":345.077,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":370.655,"end":388.306,"text":"全序部人事總書中央合調一個大家算出因為這錢是公務人員的不是外購大家是公務人員的算出一個最好的方式不要說現在的公務員要越提越多去補那個已經退休的"},{"start":388.994,"end":404.197,"text":"已經退休了,他現在會改革後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你說的是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋,因為錢就是這麼多。"},{"start":416.059,"end":418.641,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":431.129,"end":455.563,"text":"相關的利害關係人,你不怕找那些退休的,你也要找那些限職的。限職的你不怕找那些高級官員,你也要找那些六職等、七職等的、九職等做客廳、檢任官的、十二職的。大家各自有各自的盤算嘛,因為他們自己的生活。大家尋求一個比較好的方法,讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點。好不好?好,議長。謝謝。"},{"start":459.106,"end":460.231,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1082,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（14時59分）好，召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["王委員義川：部長好。如果當年蔡總統沒有推動年金改革，照當時的說法，基金什麼時候就破產了？"],["施部長能傑：根據精算，應該在民國119年或者民國120年。"],["王委員義川：當時什麼都沒做的話，6年後就破產了？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員義川：那現在坐在這裡的公務員怎麼辦？"],["施部長能傑：就會很慘。"],["王委員義川：如果當時什麼都沒做，就會很慘？"],["施部長能傑：對，如果當時什麼都沒做。"],["王委員義川：因為當時做了一些改變，把替代率做了一些調整之後，又經過去年的一些改變，那你們也提到說，基金用罄要到民國一百三十幾年嘛？"],["施部長能傑：現在預估，改變完以後，大概接近民國140年。"],["王委員義川：現在大概到民國140年？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員義川：如果按照今天我們討論的這幾個版本，你覺得哪一個版本用罄的速度會最快？"],["施部長能傑：我們沒有具體地去評估，不過，因為每個版本都差不了太多，就是在今年或明年就停止，就只差一年，所以其實效果都差不多。"],["王委員義川：差不多就會怎樣？"],["施部長能傑：就會提早4年到5年，在民國135年左右。"],["王委員義川：OK，好。那如果真的通過了會怎麼辦？"],["施部長能傑：以部裡面的角度來看，因為這是一個立法政策的問題，所以部裡面就必須要執行。這是一個修法的問題，如果最後真的通過的話，那我想銓敘部是一個執行的機關，當然要執行，但是在財務上真的會對很多現職的公務人員產生很大的衝擊。"],["王委員義川：好，那我們請蘇人事長來。蘇人事長，你算行政院的，如果通過了怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題，本來就是一個小水庫，如果能夠自給自足的話，我覺得這是一個比較健康的生態系。"],["王委員義川：你講的這個小水庫，基本上就是公務員要提撥，政府要提撥，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：主體是公務人員要提，不夠的部分，今年補100，明年補194，再從大水庫引進來的錢可以早一點的話，政府的財政調度會比較健康。"],["王委員義川：OK。那如果通過修法，行政院接下來編這種預算的時候，要多挖走多少錢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果說民國135年就會用罄，本來是要可以撐到民國140年，就是會在民國135年就會碰到比較大的risk。"],["王委員義川：對，我說要多花多少，多補多少？"],["施部長能傑：精算應該這樣講，如果真的停掉的話，我們至少損失到2,800億。"],["王委員義川：2,800億？"],["施部長能傑：50年的精算。"],["王委員義川：就是長期來算的話，會有2,800億？"],["施部長能傑：好。那我再問，你們現在每年這樣很穩定地降，我看那個曲線是每年很穩定地在降，對不對？那降也有降到用完的一天嘛。你都不能說，我現在穩定地降，降到有一定程度了之後，這個水庫就自給自足。還是會有用完的一天，是不是？"],["施部長能傑：所有基金的方式都一定要精算，為什麼要做精算？就是說，每3年就要趕快先做精算，用50年來精算，提醒大家，這個基金如果要讓它有50年才用罄的年度，隨時提出示警，是一個動態滾動的方式。"],["王委員義川：好。那這幾年既然稅收也不錯，什麼都不錯，可是這個水庫聽起來都一直降，難道這個水庫都不會一直增加嗎？水位都不會再升高嗎？"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，為什麼我們當初會改變成基金的制度？就是希望透過這個基金，所有參與的人跟政府一起來維護這個基金，儘量不要再用基金以外納稅人的錢。"],["王委員義川：那不穩定啦。"],["施部長能傑：政府補助的錢本來也是納稅人的錢，因為我們的提撥費率裡面，65%是政府的錢，我們自己繳35%。所以我覺得，一個好的運作方式，這個基金所有參與的公務同仁跟政府，都要按照法律的規定一起努力。"],["王委員義川：所以我建議，有退休的公務人員，還有現職的公務人員，現職的公務人員也還要繼續繳，不管叫做扣還是繳，他們就是每個月要繳一筆錢，這就是大家一起在維持這個水庫，維持這個基金。我覺得現職的公務人員不管是什麼職等，以及退休的公務人員退休的時候是什麼職等，這些都是利害關係人，所以銓敘部、人事總處要協調一下，因為這個錢不是公務人員的，不是外面的，是公務人員的，算出一個最好的方式，不要讓現在的公務員越提越多，去補已經退休的公務人員那個缺口。至於已經退休的部分，我們改革以後，他們總有一個預期，在想自己退休後第一年可以領多少，第二年可以領多少。我現在聽你們說，是第一年、第二年在算的時候，發現他們其實領比較多，所以針對所有的利害關係人，我是建議你們一定要去整合，讓大家都圓滿，因為錢就是這麼多嘛，有人挖更多，就有人要繳更多，現在才開始做公務人員的人就要繳更多，不然這個水庫就乾了嘛。","所以我具體建議，召委早上有說會召開公聽會，邀請相關的利害關係人時，你不要只找退休的公務人員，你也要找現職的。現職的公務人員，你也不要只找高級官員，你也要找六職等、七職等、九職等的、當科長的、當簡任官的、十二職等的，大家各自有各自的盤算，因為他們有自己的算法，大家尋求一個比較好的方法，讓這個改革能夠比較圓滿一點，好不好？好，以上。"],["施部長能傑：好。謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}