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\"文\", \"start\": 284.94, \"end\": 285.02, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 285.02, \"end\": 285.06, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 285.06, \"end\": 285.08, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 285.08, \"end\": 285.18, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 285.18, \"end\": 285.2, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"：\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,555 --> 00:00:06,816\n主委主委好主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底他的合理性\n\n2\n00:00:27,526 --> 00:00:50,362\n在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻\n\n3\n00:00:55,625 --> 00:01:23,338\n這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答\n\n4\n00:01:24,145 --> 00:01:40,190\n今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻\n\n5\n00:01:43,371 --> 00:02:07,482\n四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法\n\n6\n00:02:08,422 --> 00:02:24,392\n但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰\n\n7\n00:02:25,572 --> 00:02:50,222\n那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻\n\n8\n00:02:52,023 --> 00:02:56,465\n賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,\n\n9\n00:03:15,191 --> 00:03:24,521\n他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?\n\n10\n00:03:26,633 --> 00:03:56,060\n有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大他是一個國家的元首因此罷免必須要是非常非常的嚴格的這個標準以及程序\n\n11\n00:03:56,620 --> 00:04:20,028\n主委我同意這個看法但是我要提醒你難道立法委員就不重要嗎?你認為立法委員的當選怎麼要這麼多民意的一個肯定選出來的立法委員他的罷免的門檻當然今天我們不是在講這個門檻的問題就是說他的當選票數支持度那麼高但是卻只要25%就可以罷免他您認為合理嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:21,508 --> 00:04:24,112\n二、審查立法院通過的法律在中選會的立場上,我們就按照這個規定來執行。\n\n13\n00:04:40,112 --> 00:04:45,200\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2555\t6816\t主委主委好主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底他的合理性\n27526\t50362\t在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻\n55625\t83338\t這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答\n84145\t100190\t今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻\n103371\t127482\t四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法\n128422\t144392\t但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰\n145572\t170222\t那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻\n172023\t176465\t賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,\n195191\t204521\t他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?\n206633\t236060\t有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大他是一個國家的元首因此罷免必須要是非常非常的嚴格的這個標準以及程序\n236620\t260028\t主委我同意這個看法但是我要提醒你難道立法委員就不重要嗎?你認為立法委員的當選怎麼要這麼多民意的一個肯定選出來的立法委員他的罷免的門檻當然今天我們不是在講這個門檻的問題就是說他的當選票數支持度那麼高但是卻只要25%就可以罷免他您認為合理嗎?\n261508\t264112\t二、審查立法院通過的法律在中選會的立場上,我們就按照這個規定來執行。\n280112\t285200\t二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n","txt":"主委主委好主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底他的合理性\n在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻\n這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答\n今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻\n四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法\n但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰\n那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻\n賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,\n他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?\n有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大他是一個國家的元首因此罷免必須要是非常非常的嚴格的這個標準以及程序\n主委我同意這個看法但是我要提醒你難道立法委員就不重要嗎?你認為立法委員的當選怎麼要這麼多民意的一個肯定選出來的立法委員他的罷免的門檻當然今天我們不是在講這個門檻的問題就是說他的當選票數支持度那麼高但是卻只要25%就可以罷免他您認為合理嗎?\n二、審查立法院通過的法律在中選會的立場上,我們就按照這個規定來執行。\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.555 --> 00:06.816\n主委主委好主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底他的合理性\n\n00:27.526 --> 00:50.362\n在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻\n\n00:55.625 --> 01:23.338\n這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答\n\n01:24.145 --> 01:40.190\n今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻\n\n01:43.371 --> 02:07.482\n四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法\n\n02:08.422 --> 02:24.392\n但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰\n\n02:25.572 --> 02:50.222\n那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻\n\n02:52.023 --> 02:56.465\n賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,\n\n03:15.191 --> 03:24.521\n他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?\n\n03:26.633 --> 03:56.060\n有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大他是一個國家的元首因此罷免必須要是非常非常的嚴格的這個標準以及程序\n\n03:56.620 --> 04:20.028\n主委我同意這個看法但是我要提醒你難道立法委員就不重要嗎?你認為立法委員的當選怎麼要這麼多民意的一個肯定選出來的立法委員他的罷免的門檻當然今天我們不是在講這個門檻的問題就是說他的當選票數支持度那麼高但是卻只要25%就可以罷免他您認為合理嗎?\n\n04:21.508 --> 04:24.112\n二、審查立法院通過的法律在中選會的立場上,我們就按照這個規定來執行。\n\n04:40.112 --> 04:45.200\n二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.555,"end":6.816,"text":"主委主委好主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底他的合理性"},{"start":27.526,"end":50.362,"text":"在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻"},{"start":55.625,"end":83.338,"text":"這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答"},{"start":84.145,"end":100.19,"text":"今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻"},{"start":103.371,"end":127.482,"text":"四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法"},{"start":128.422,"end":144.392,"text":"但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰"},{"start":145.572,"end":170.222,"text":"那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻"},{"start":172.023,"end":176.465,"text":"賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,"},{"start":195.191,"end":204.521,"text":"他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?"},{"start":206.633,"end":236.06,"text":"有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大他是一個國家的元首因此罷免必須要是非常非常的嚴格的這個標準以及程序"},{"start":236.62,"end":260.028,"text":"主委我同意這個看法但是我要提醒你難道立法委員就不重要嗎?你認為立法委員的當選怎麼要這麼多民意的一個肯定選出來的立法委員他的罷免的門檻當然今天我們不是在講這個門檻的問題就是說他的當選票數支持度那麼高但是卻只要25%就可以罷免他您認為合理嗎?"},{"start":261.508,"end":264.112,"text":"二、審查立法院通過的法律在中選會的立場上,我們就按照這個規定來執行。"},{"start":280.112,"end":285.2,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1106,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（14時46分）謝謝召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主委好。主委，我想現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的，就是大家來理性討論選罷法的修正，到底它的合理性在哪裡，現行的罷免制度是否公平、合理，我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好討論。","我想，我們在2016年修法以後，公職人員的罷免門檻降為「同意票數達原選舉區選舉人總數四分之一以上，即為通過」，就是以25%作為罷免的門檻，這樣一個低門檻的設計，除了會變相鼓動罷免，讓敗選的一方非常容易地操作罷免，成為選舉的延長賽，不利我們民主的發展，且會耗費國家社會的資源。修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成罷免比當選容易的畸形制度？主委請回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：今天我們的案子所討論的是要罷免的得票數必須高於當選的得票數。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：並不是對罷免的門檻的討論……"],["林委員思銘：主委，我是先從……"],["李主任委員進勇：罷免的門檻定在四分之一到底是不是太高，或者太低，其實參考世界各國的立法例會有不同的看法，這是另外一個議題，但是針對罷免票要多於當選票1票這點，我們認為不宜做這樣的修改。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我尊重你的回答，其實我是想聽聽您對於我剛剛那個問題的看法。當然世界各國也有很多先進國家根本沒有罷免制度，我們尊重人民選出來的代議士、民意代表，如果他真的非常不適任，也要讓他把4年的時間做完，我們下一任再把他淘汰。","我想我們來看看總統的罷免，總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出，然後經過中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票，有效票數要過半數，罷免才算通過；但是我們看立委的罷免則是，罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過，也就是我們剛才講的門檻。我們看賴清德總統當選的投票率，他當選的票數只有40%的支持度就當選了總統，但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過，所以我們假設以60%的支持度當選的立委，他卻只要有25%的支持就能被罷免，兩者被罷免的設計上是否失衡？主委，你的看法呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：有關總統被罷免的部分，除了剛剛委員所提到的，就是必須達到二分之一、再二分之一之外，還必須要是立法院通過。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：所以它不只是門檻高，它的過程、程序也更加嚴謹，因為茲事體大，他是一個國家的元首，因此罷免必須要以非常、非常嚴格的標準以及程序。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我同意你這個看法，但是我也要提醒你，難道立法委員就不重要嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：立法委員也很重要。"],["林委員思銘：我認為立法委員的當選，經過這麼多民意的肯定而選出來的立法委員，他的罷免門檻……當然我們今天不是在講這個門檻的問題，但他的當選票數、支持度那麼高，但卻只要25%就可以罷免他，您認為合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院通過的法律，在中選會的立場上，我們就是按照這個規定來執行。"],["林委員思銘：這就凸顯出這個制度的不合理，所以我們這一次認為這樣的罷免，同意票數要大於他的當選票數……"],["李主任委員進勇：我這樣的回答並不等同我認為它不合理。"],["林委員思銘：我想你已經凸顯制度的不合理，這就可以證明……"],["李主任委員進勇：門檻的部分，各國有不同的標準。"],["林委員思銘：當選的票數一定……你今天要罷免他，其罷免票數一定要大於他的當選票數，這才叫公平正義。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個基礎實在是不存在。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}}