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\"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 266.577, \"end\": 266.657, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 266.657, \"end\": 266.717, \"score\": 0.463}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 266.717, \"end\": 266.797, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 266.797, \"end\": 266.857, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 266.857, \"end\": 266.877, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,832 --> 00:00:09,754\n謝主席先請內政部長好請劉部長\n\n2\n00:00:20,851 --> 00:00:27,153\n委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金但是\n\n3\n00:00:37,416 --> 00:00:56,364\n本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個慰勞金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見\n\n4\n00:01:05,067 --> 00:01:25,017\n所以這邊本席希望內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間\n\n5\n00:01:27,119 --> 00:01:43,038\n對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法,那我們根據委員的意見。因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦,是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見,然後之後才做定案。沒問題。謝謝部長,謝謝。那請主委。好,請李主委。好,請部長回座。\n\n6\n00:01:51,107 --> 00:01:57,793\n主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎?高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權?\n\n7\n00:02:19,285 --> 00:02:46,692\n這樣子的修法真的很抱歉容我說一句話我是岐岐以為不可那為什麼岐岐以為不可能因為他沒有根據這樣子的比較是沒有根據的那主委您認為說本屆修法然後本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮這個我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題但是就這個案子來講基本上我認為不要通過\n\n8\n00:02:48,086 --> 00:03:14,383\n憲法賦予人民有罷免權但是國眾兩黨他們用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權利那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問\n\n9\n00:03:16,084 --> 00:03:32,963\n主委您認為在大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?主委您認為在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?\n\n10\n00:03:34,688 --> 00:03:42,651\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n11\n00:03:52,315 --> 00:04:02,398\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n\n12\n00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:09,521\n民眾的眼睛很雪亮民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意\n\n13\n00:04:26,357 --> 00:04:26,877\n主委,您認為呢?是的,謝謝。好,謝謝主委。謝謝主席。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7832\t9754\t謝主席 先請內政部長好 請劉部長\n20851\t27153\t委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金但是\n37416\t56364\t本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個慰勞金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見\n65067\t85017\t所以這邊本席希望內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間\n87119\t103038\t對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法,那我們根據委員的意見。因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦,是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見,然後之後才做定案。沒問題。謝謝部長,謝謝。那請主委。好,請李主委。好,請部長回座。\n111107\t117793\t主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎?高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權?\n139285\t166692\t這樣子的修法真的很抱歉容我說一句話我是岐岐以為不可那為什麼岐岐以為不可能因為他沒有根據這樣子的比較是沒有根據的那主委您認為說本屆修法然後本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮這個我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題但是就這個案子來講基本上我認為不要通過\n168086\t194383\t憲法賦予人民有罷免權但是國眾兩黨他們用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權利那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問\n196084\t212963\t主委您認為在大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?主委您認為在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?\n214688\t222651\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n232315\t242398\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n248140\t249521\t民眾的眼睛很雪亮民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意\n266357\t266877\t主委,您認為呢?是的,謝謝。好,謝謝主委。謝謝主席。\n","txt":"謝主席 先請內政部長好 請劉部長\n委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金但是\n本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個慰勞金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見\n所以這邊本席希望內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間\n對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法,那我們根據委員的意見。因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦,是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見,然後之後才做定案。沒問題。謝謝部長,謝謝。那請主委。好,請李主委。好,請部長回座。\n主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎?高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權?\n這樣子的修法真的很抱歉容我說一句話我是岐岐以為不可那為什麼岐岐以為不可能因為他沒有根據這樣子的比較是沒有根據的那主委您認為說本屆修法然後本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮這個我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題但是就這個案子來講基本上我認為不要通過\n憲法賦予人民有罷免權但是國眾兩黨他們用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權利那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問\n主委您認為在大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?主委您認為在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n民眾的眼睛很雪亮民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意\n主委,您認為呢?是的,謝謝。好,謝謝主委。謝謝主席。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.832 --> 00:09.754\n謝主席先請內政部長好請劉部長\n\n00:20.851 --> 00:27.153\n委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金但是\n\n00:37.416 --> 00:56.364\n本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個慰勞金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見\n\n01:05.067 --> 01:25.017\n所以這邊本席希望內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間\n\n01:27.119 --> 01:43.038\n對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法,那我們根據委員的意見。因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦,是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見,然後之後才做定案。沒問題。謝謝部長,謝謝。那請主委。好,請李主委。好,請部長回座。\n\n01:51.107 --> 01:57.793\n主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎?高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權?\n\n02:19.285 --> 02:46.692\n這樣子的修法真的很抱歉容我說一句話我是岐岐以為不可那為什麼岐岐以為不可能因為他沒有根據這樣子的比較是沒有根據的那主委您認為說本屆修法然後本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮這個我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題但是就這個案子來講基本上我認為不要通過\n\n02:48.086 --> 03:14.383\n憲法賦予人民有罷免權但是國眾兩黨他們用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權利那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問\n\n03:16.084 --> 03:32.963\n主委您認為在大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?主委您認為在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?\n\n03:34.688 --> 03:42.651\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n03:52.315 --> 04:02.398\n審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「\n\n04:08.140 --> 04:09.521\n民眾的眼睛很雪亮民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意\n\n04:26.357 --> 04:26.877\n主委,您認為呢?是的,謝謝。好,謝謝主委。謝謝主席。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.832,"end":9.754,"text":"謝主席 先請內政部長好 請劉部長"},{"start":20.851,"end":27.153,"text":"委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金但是"},{"start":37.416,"end":56.364,"text":"本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個慰勞金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見"},{"start":65.067,"end":85.017,"text":"所以這邊本席希望內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間"},{"start":87.119,"end":103.038,"text":"對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法,那我們根據委員的意見。因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦,是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見,然後之後才做定案。沒問題。謝謝部長,謝謝。那請主委。好,請李主委。好,請部長回座。"},{"start":111.107,"end":117.793,"text":"主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎?高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權?"},{"start":139.285,"end":166.692,"text":"這樣子的修法真的很抱歉容我說一句話我是岐岐以為不可那為什麼岐岐以為不可能因為他沒有根據這樣子的比較是沒有根據的那主委您認為說本屆修法然後本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮這個我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題但是就這個案子來講基本上我認為不要通過"},{"start":168.086,"end":194.383,"text":"憲法賦予人民有罷免權但是國眾兩黨他們用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權利那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問"},{"start":196.084,"end":212.963,"text":"主委您認為在大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?主委您認為在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?"},{"start":214.688,"end":222.651,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":232.315,"end":242.398,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「"},{"start":248.14,"end":249.521,"text":"民眾的眼睛很雪亮民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意"},{"start":266.357,"end":266.877,"text":"主委,您認為呢?是的,謝謝。好,謝謝主委。謝謝主席。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1171,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（15時1分）謝謝主席，先請內政部長。"],["主席：好，請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好。部長，內政部近日有預告「村里長慰勞金支給及表揚辦法草案」，將發給任滿6屆而且年滿65歲的村里長30萬的慰問金，但是本席稍微瞭解過，似乎內政部之前針對預算編列的部分是跟縣市政府、地方政府做溝通取得共識，但是地方的里長都反映，也建議本席一定要向內政部反映，你們要跟全國的村里長來溝通、座談，針對屆數以及慰勞金金額的合理性來做討論，並且要聽取全國村里長的意見，所以本席希望內政部這邊可以考量，是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我們也有委員提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會要來找我，另外一個就是我們所謂的預告是預告完成，但是還沒公告，表示說還要再收集意見，那今天有很多……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以還是有溝通的空間？"],["劉部長世芳：對，很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法，我們根據委員的意見……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長，因為這個事關村里長權益，希望能夠廣納大家的意見……"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["陳委員秀寳：然後之後才做定案。"],["劉部長世芳：沒問題。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。","請主委。"],["主席：請李主委，請部長回座。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委好。主委，請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：高罷免門檻，我現在不知道所謂的高是高到什麼樣的程度，但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，您認為同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數，這樣子會不會影響人民的罷免權？"],["李主任委員進勇：這樣子的修法，真的很抱歉，容我說一句話，我是期期以為不可啦！為什麼期期以為不可呢？因為它沒有根據，這樣子的比較是沒有根據的。"],["陳委員秀寳：那主委您認為本屆修法本屆就適用，有沒有自肥的疑慮？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們還是按照司法院大法官會議解釋的精神來處理這個問題，但是就這個案子來講，基本上我認為不要通過。"],["陳委員秀寳：憲法賦予人民有罷免權，但是國眾兩黨用這樣子的理由要來限縮人民的罷免權，藍白兩黨在立法院無止境擴權的時候，人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權力，本席自己也是立委，我要說明的是，提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識，用強渡關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由。","接下來我想請教主委，請問大選的投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：通常選舉的投票率會高一點。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那主委您認為在罷免的投票中，人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是與大選不相同？"],["李主任委員進勇：心理壓力跟成本，我現在不大瞭解這個重點在什麼地方。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實主委剛剛有提，大選的投票率平均是7成，但是罷免的投票率平均是4成。再來，在我們臺灣傳統的選舉氛圍之下，其實要人民站出來罷免，他面對這個，心理壓力會比較大，比平常的選舉還要大，因此，如果我們要以投票率以及投票率的基數來推導罷免案應該要以同樣的數據來代表今天這個罷免案是不是有一定的民意基礎，本席覺得是不合理的，當然國民黨你們也不要說少數否決多數，其實討論的基礎根本就不同。"],["李主任委員進勇：基礎不同。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們不能用這樣子的言論來欺騙人民，民眾的眼睛很雪亮，民眾的理智也會判斷，選舉其實可以視為一種締結契約的概念，當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意或認為他自身的利益、權益有受到衝突的時候，就會利用罷免來做一個折衷挽回的方式，這是憲法賦予人民的權利……"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到！"],["陳委員秀寳：所以提高罷免門檻這件事情，本來就不可以作為政治喊價，應該要經過詳細的規劃和充分的討論，主委，您認為呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到，停了！"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：時間到不用你喊啦！主席在那裡，他講就好了。"],["主席：請林宜瑾委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：幫忙監督一下啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，你要不要維持一下現場秩序啊？"],["王委員美惠：主席，你們自己的人，你都不制止他。"],["吳委員思瑤：還需要糾察隊嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，這樣不好啦！"],["王委員美惠：主席叫糾察隊來，你會怕嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：他時間到了還繼續講，還不能讓人講哦？"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，你主持秩序啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，現場都還有空位啊！都讓位給你們，然後委員坐在那裡。"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，秩序是你在主持，不是其他人在主持。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！是你在主持還是他們在主持？時間到都是你們在講！"],["吳委員思瑤：發言委員會有壓力欸！"],["蔡委員易餘：人家在講，你就在那裡插話。"],["主席：你們也都在講嘛！所以沒關係，我們就尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我可以會議詢問嗎？"],["主席：我們尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問優先，會議詢問。"],["主席：我們尊重林宜瑾委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問優先，依照議事規則，會議詢問優先好嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：幹嘛？"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問優先，議事規則，會議詢問。","主席謝謝，我會議詢問，不好意思，宜瑾委員稍候一下。因為今天……"],["主席：2分鐘，好不好？2分鐘。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們樓上司法及法制委員會的會議詢問至少是3分鐘。"],["主席：沒關係，2分鐘好了。"],["吳委員思瑤：我第一個覺得要會議詢問的是，連會議詢問的時間在內政委員會都比別人短，連重要議案討論的時間，今天本委員會只有5分鐘，非本委員會只有4分鐘，這麼短的時間怎麼樣……"],["在場人員：6分鐘。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，6跟4，不管6分鐘跟4分鐘，都是沒有辦法好好實質討論任何攸關人民權利的民主議案的，現在我就跟主席報告，我在這裡會議詢問，在場有兩位委員坐在地上，我們現場都還有座位啊！我請主席要維持會議的秩序，我站在這裡，他們4隻眼睛這樣朝著我看，有很大的壓力啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有問題！沒有問題！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以請主席是不是可以制止一下？"],["廖委員先翔：坐哪也要管。"],["吳委員思瑤：是不是可以制止一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：會議詢問……"],["吳委員思瑤：維持一下會議的秩序……"],["徐委員巧芯：我坐好了，沒有問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且我相信徐委員是這麼資深的委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有問題……"],["吳委員思瑤：不要干擾我的會議詢問，主席，他干擾我的時間，我要再增加時間哦！"],["徐委員巧芯：會議詢問就是你……"],["吳委員思瑤：他干擾我的發言，我還要再增加時間哦！他干擾我的時間！"],["王委員美惠：為什麼人家講話……"],["吳委員思瑤：他干擾我的時間，我要增加時間哦！主席！"],["徐委員巧芯：我坐在民進黨旁邊。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問也是非常重要，本席有本席的權利！"],["徐委員巧芯：你問的問題……"],["吳委員思瑤：徐召委是非常資深的委員，我相信他主持議事一定很有經驗……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我……"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，你有需要把他……"],["吳委員思瑤：不需要在場有這種糾察隊在這裡！"],["蔡委員易餘：十分之一管制一下就好了！"],["吳委員思瑤：在這裡管制，然後盯著別的委員發言，這對於每一位發言委員都是很大的壓力嘛！這要彼此尊重嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：他時間到了。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且我要再次地要求，內政委員會選罷法攸關人民的權利，今天樓上司法在討論年改法案，攸關世代正義，吳宗憲召委給我們本委員會委員的時間至少是8分鐘。"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到！"],["吳委員思瑤：因為剛剛徐巧芯干擾我的發言，我爭取還要再多發言，他干擾我超過1分鐘，主席。"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以說重要的，攸關國家重要的事項，只給我外委員會，我現在在準備等一下的質詢，我都不知道4分鐘我開場白就沒有了。"],["徐委員巧芯：關我什麼事啊？"],["吳委員思瑤：所以要爭取，這關我的事啊！徐巧芯委員，你不重視你的發言，我重視我能夠發言的每一次機會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦！時間到了！"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到了啊！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以主席是不是我要求，我們在場有很多內政委員，我希望能夠要求，對於這個議案長期以來沒有機會參與發言的委員，能夠有更長的時間來進行發言的完整性，好嗎？這是我的會議詢問，請問主席可以做裁示嗎？這是我的會議詢問。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳思瑤委員，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：是不是主席可以做裁示呢？"],["在場人員：就你講最久。"],["吳委員思瑤：是不是主席可以做裁示？"],["主席：我正要講，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我在這等候您的裁示。"],["主席：今天本席已經在早上說明了，當然你們可能在別的委員會都沒有聽到，我可以再說明一次，今天會議的質詢時間本委員會是5加1，外委員會是4分鐘，這個在過去我們第11屆的委員會也是有慣例的，最重要的就是我們看到今天簽到要質詢的委員非常多，所以我們為了尊重……"],["吳委員思瑤：代表大家都關心，大家都想好好地發言。"],["主席：對，我們尊重每一個委員，尊重每一個委員的發言，所以這一個部分我們已經宣告了，請您尊重，我也請你尊重召委。"],["吳委員思瑤：那我在這裡我的會議詢問就是我們能夠請命……"],["主席：也請你能夠遵守立法院的議事程序，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：為每個想發言的委員請命。"],["主席：剛剛你一直講……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我請您再商酌，這是我的請命……"],["主席：底下你們的委員也一直講，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：我想4分鐘是沒有辦法好好討論要沒收人民權利的議案。"],["徐委員巧芯：不要干擾主席，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝你、謝謝你，我想你也很資深……"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝！謝謝！謝謝吳思瑤！"],["主席：把握時間，本席到其他的委員會，很多也是4分鐘，我想盡辦法我就是把握那4分鐘，那今天這個已經宣告了。"],["吳委員思瑤：要請命啊！4分鐘沒有辦法討論！"],["李委員坤城：會議詢問，2分鐘時間。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有辦法討論！"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席，會議詢問。我剛剛到司法及法制委員會，我也去詢問年金改革，然後我是外委員會的，他是給我4分鐘，跟內政一樣4分鐘，但是我講完超過4分鐘之後，吳宗憲召委他就站起來，但是他沒有消音耶！他站起來，因為他知道我講到一半，他就是聽我講，他就站在那邊，他也沒有說「李坤城你講完了，你要下去了，後面有很多人在排」，沒有！他就聽我講完，因為年金改革這個東西很重要，就像我們今天討論選罷法，也很重要啊！也很關鍵啊！所以才會有六十幾個人登記發言，表示大家都很重視、很關心這個選罷法，那召委你就說我們今天有六十幾個人登記，所以要限制時間，但是主席我跟你講，司法委員會登記也是六十幾個耶！六十幾個人，所以我剛剛結束發言的時候，我還特別謝謝吳宗憲主席，我就說你這個比我們在樓下的好欸！就是說我在講，雖然時間已經到了，但是你可以讓我繼續把它講完，至少讓我講完，充分表達完之後，我時間到了再下來，那吳宗憲他怎麼跟我講呢？他就說對啊！因為年金改革很重要，希望大家都能夠充分地來討論，所以我是希望是不是內政委員會也能夠比照一下司法及法制委員會？因為你不論是討論年金改革的相關法案或是來討論選罷法相關的議題，大家都很重視嘛！所以才會超過六十幾個人在登記，但是你看，等一下輪到我，我才4分鐘，可能4分鐘一到的時候你就要站起來，然後就要消音，我是覺得啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到！"],["李委員坤城：時間還沒到啦！我希望能夠比照司法及法制委員會，讓大家充分地來表達我們的意見，希望主席能夠針對我的會議詢問給予答復，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請你回座。"],["李委員坤城：沒有、沒有，沒有答復啊！"],["主席：我會回復，我會回復。"],["蔡委員易餘：我附議，這些消音的問題。"],["主席：第2位會議詢問也是沒有搞清楚狀況，浪費我們大家的時間。"],["李委員坤城：有、有、有，我有搞清楚！"],["主席：我現在來回復，我現在來回復。"],["李委員坤城：因為剛開始……"],["主席：我講話的時候，可以讓主席講話嗎？"],["李委員坤城：主席，你不能對我做人身攻擊啊！我9點就坐在這邊了啊！"],["主席：好啦！我現在來回復。"],["李委員坤城：所以剛開始的時候你4分鐘，我們大家就有不同的意見了啊！你怎麼可以說我搞不清楚狀況？"],["主席：那我現在回復……"],["李委員坤城：你不能對我做人身攻擊啊！對不對？"],["主席：好，那我現在說明，我說明好不好？來，我說明，我說明。"],["蔡委員易餘：不要說人家搞不懂狀況。"],["主席：我請李委員回去看剛剛蔡易餘委員質詢的整個過程，蔡易餘委員他實際質詢，我們外委員會4分鐘，蔡易餘委員7分鐘，你去看，對不對？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，被你中斷了。"],["主席：你去看嘛！你可以去看，我也是蔡易餘委員時間到，我讓他講一下我才站起來，我站了2、3分鐘，而且我制止很多次。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有。"],["主席：很多次。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有。"],["主席：他還是繼續不甩主席，我才消音的。"],["蔡委員易餘：我要講，我要講。"],["主席：所以現在如果你們……"],["李委員坤城：然後他說最後要收尾啊！最後收尾1分鐘，主席你也不願意給他啊！"],["主席：不是，他總共4分鐘，他已經講了7分43秒，所以在這種情形下，如果民進黨團還有民進黨的委員們，我們今天的開會你們硬是要不遵守立法院的議事規則以及所有發言委員的權利的話，今天的議事程序……"],["李委員坤城：我們都很遵守啊！我們只是要求多一些發言時間而已啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：可是召委就說……"],["主席：好，你合理的爭取，但主席我也已經宣告了，請你們遵守議事程序，可以嗎？"],["李委員坤城：我們只是希望這麼重要的議題，是不是能夠比照司法委員會而已啊！"],["主席：如果要繼續這樣，那我們是不是要休息？你們要協商嗎？"],["王委員美惠：要回家了！"],["在場人員：休息啊！休息啊！"],["王委員義川：你還有別招嗎？你只會休息，你還有別招嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼要休息，這個是召委的權力！"],["李委員坤城：來囉！來囉！"],["王委員義川：你有別招嗎？你只會休息啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他哪有休息很多？"],["王委員義川：你還在休息，一直休息、一直休息！"],["徐委員巧芯：才休息一次而已！"],["主席：所以我們請全國的民眾看，一個議事程序，好，我們張召委請我休息，會議休息。","休息（15時16分）","繼續開會（15時46分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","在開會一開始，本席先在這邊做個說明：第一個，我相信在座所有的立法委員都知道，每個委員會開會的時間、質詢的時間，這都是召委的職責跟權力，所以我在早上就已經宣告了，而且在早上民進黨的委員也已經提出異議，我也說明了，在立法院我們第11屆第1會期第22次的會議是吳琪銘召委主持的會議，打詐的法案難道不是重要法案嗎？本席要在這邊說，其實每個委員會討論的都是重要的法案，當然今天的選罷法我也不否認，非常重要，那打詐也很重要，但是那個時候是本委員會4加1，外委員會4分鐘，所以每個召委有他的考量。本席在早上也特別說明了，是因為知道也瞭解今天有很多委員希望發言，所以我們尊重，也希望維持每一個委員質詢的權利，所以我們到了下午不可能再更改質詢的時間。"],["王委員美惠：最後他給你意見，你就不接受啊！"],["主席：這第一個，所以是不是要尊重？剛剛你們在抗議，說你們講話的時候底下有人講話，實際上我為什麼沒有出面阻止？因為抗議的政黨的委員，你們自己也常常這樣，我都尊重大家，我當主席我盡可能地尊重立法院的各位委員同事，當然有一些比較新進的委員對有些議事規則不瞭解，本席也予以尊重，我們希望能夠讓這個會議可以持續地、好好地進行，剛剛張宏陸召委也代表民進黨，大家來協調好，等一下給蔡易餘委員會議詢問完，我們就讓今天想質詢的所有委員能夠儘快地來質詢。"],["李委員坤城：還有新進委員啊！我們新進委員也可以會議詢問啊！"],["主席：不是，張宏陸召委，如果現在我們大家協調好的，不這樣進行的話……"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問……"],["主席：對，我們已經協調好的，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問本來就是議事規則。"],["王委員義川：我新來的，讓我問一下。"],["王委員美惠：他還不會，讓新來的問。"],["李委員坤城：會議詢問一下啊！"],["主席：如果我們的協調大家不照規則，我們就繼續進行質詢。","請林宜瑾委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問也不給！"],["李委員坤城：會議詢問啊！"],["王委員義川：我問一下，我新來的，讓我問一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們如果說話不算話，那我們就繼續休息。"],["王委員義川：我新來的，讓我問一下"],["主席：如果……"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，我剛剛也新來的欸！"],["王委員義川：主席，我新來的，你讓我會議詢問一下。"],["主席：不是，如果民進黨所有的委員不尊重你們內政委員會的張宏陸召委……"],["王委員美惠：我們沒有所有的委員！他是新來的，讓新來的去……"],["王委員義川：新來的，我問一下，會議詢問一下，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：休息啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：休息啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：可是規則可以啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：那這樣我要怎麼講？"],["主席：本席沒有請你發言，請你尊重一下。"],["王委員義川：我有會議詢問。"],["主席：本席沒有請你發言，請你尊重。"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有請你發言。"],["王委員義川：我沒有在跟你講話，我在跟主席講話，你「惦惦」啦！"],["李委員坤城：主席，不要欺負新進的委員啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有請你發言。"],["主席：對啦！你們也不要欺負新進的委員。"],["王委員義川：我在跟主席講話，你「惦惦」啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有請你發言，你是沒有聽到是不是？"],["王委員義川：這跟你沒關係啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒長耳朵哦？"],["王委員義川：那是我跟主席的關係，跟你沒關係啦！跟你沒關係啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：你不知道是你聽不懂議事規則，在那邊講一些有的沒的啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，我幫你解圍，我上去給他問，他要問什麼我給他問。"],["主席：所以我們就請全國民眾看……"],["莊委員瑞雄：看你要問什麼，我讓你問。"],["王委員義川：好，我問，來！"],["主席：民進黨的委員在開會的時候，要進行這樣的一個程序。"],["王委員義川：來，我問一下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我又不是官員，我讓你問。"],["王委員義川：你不是說要讓我問？"],["徐委員巧芯：你現在官員哦？"],["主席：張宏陸召委，張宏陸召委。"],["張委員宏陸：幹嘛？"],["主席：現在的程序，剛剛協調好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛講的不算是吧？"],["徐委員巧芯：剛剛協調好的。"],["張委員智倫：換另外一個人占質詢臺。"],["主席：如果剛剛協調好的不算數，那我們就……"],["牛委員煦庭：繼續休息啊！"],["張委員智倫：換一個人占質詢臺而已啊！"],["主席：我們就繼續休息協商，繼續協調，我聽你的，怎麼樣？"],["李委員柏毅：自己要叫新進委員，新進委員上臺又不讓人家講。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是，會議詢問為什麼不行？"],["王委員美惠：他剛才說他新來的，他有問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問為什麼不行？"],["王委員義川：我新來的，我就不會，我問一下也不讓我問。你來也有新生訓練啊！教我一下不行嗎？讓我問一下。"],["李委員坤城：主席，怎麼幫他消音了啊！"],["主席：我沒有請他發言，好不好？我沒有請他發言。"],["吳委員思瑤：會議詢問為什麼不可以發言？"],["張委員智倫：協商破裂嗎？"],["主席：所以現在民進黨完全不按照我們協商的結果，那我們繼續休息協商，休息。","休息（15時52分）","繼續開會（16時51分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","本席在這邊要特別說明：這個選罷法的排案在今天之前已經排過3次會議，3次會議都被民進黨霸占主席臺，沒有辦法開會，那今天第4次排案我們終於可以開會，但是很遺憾的，今天一整天的會議過程，民進黨不斷地用程序發言、會議詢問來造成冗長的發言，早上也有……"],["李委員坤城：只有程序發言啊！"],["主席：最重要的就是下午的會議詢問，其實早上都已經反映過了，所以這樣子變相的癱瘓議事，這不是大家樂見的……"],["蔡委員易餘：召委！召委！"],["主席：所以本席在這裡希望我們現在就是好好地讓有登記發言的委員來質詢，我們停止所有的會議詢問……"],["蔡委員易餘：我這個還沒講，沒有啦！我這個要講一下。"],["主席：停止所有的會議詢問，我們請大家尊重召委，請大家尊重召委。好，我們現在繼續開會。"],["蔡委員易餘：有錯的資訊啊！"],["主席：請林宜瑾委員發言，林宜瑾委員發言。"],["王委員美惠：快點啦！他再上去講一下啦！"],["林委員思銘：你已經澄清過了！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，我沒有澄清欸！只有召委講而已欸！"],["王委員美惠：讓他澄清一下啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：召委，只有你講而已。"],["主席：請大家尊重質詢的委員。","請林宜瑾委員。"],["王委員美惠：等一下啦！讓人家說一下啦！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}}