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\"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 258.861, \"end\": 259.101, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 259.101, \"end\": 259.583, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 259.583, \"end\": 260.867, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 260.867, \"end\": 261.047, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 261.047, \"end\": 261.067, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,338 --> 00:00:27,806\n主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定立立法跟屢次的改變\n\n2\n00:00:29,284 --> 00:00:50,695\n有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為\n\n3\n00:00:55,339 --> 00:01:19,532\n立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費\n\n4\n00:01:21,762 --> 00:01:47,263\n律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施\n\n5\n00:01:48,504 --> 00:02:15,831\n剛剛前面的委員有講到不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊\n\n6\n00:02:17,383 --> 00:02:27,468\n啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這你有什麼樣的看法\n\n7\n00:02:28,616 --> 00:02:48,077\n對我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也那我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的提案行政院的議事之類的我想那我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個\n\n8\n00:02:49,218 --> 00:02:50,338\n律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範\n\n9\n00:03:17,808 --> 00:03:42,835\n全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來\n\n10\n00:03:44,246 --> 00:03:50,591\n我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的這個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加那這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題這是國家憲政結構的問題\n\n11\n00:04:13,927 --> 00:04:21,067\n所以我是要請你們慎重你們要堅持住這不能隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7338\t27806\t主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定立立法跟屢次的改變\n29284\t50695\t有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為\n55339\t79532\t立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費\n81762\t107263\t律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施\n108504\t135831\t剛剛前面的委員有講到不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊\n137383\t147468\t啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這你有什麼樣的看法\n148616\t168077\t對 我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也那我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的提案行政院的議事之類的我想那我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個\n169218\t170338\t律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範\n197808\t222835\t全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來\n224246\t230591\t我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的這個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加那這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題這是國家憲政結構的問題\n253927\t261067\t所以我是要請你們慎重你們要堅持住這不能隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝\n","txt":"主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定立立法跟屢次的改變\n有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為\n立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費\n律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施\n剛剛前面的委員有講到不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊\n啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這你有什麼樣的看法\n對 我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也那我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的提案行政院的議事之類的我想那我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個\n律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範\n全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來\n我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的這個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加那這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題這是國家憲政結構的問題\n所以我是要請你們慎重你們要堅持住這不能隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.338 --> 00:27.806\n主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定立立法跟屢次的改變\n\n00:29.284 --> 00:50.695\n有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為\n\n00:55.339 --> 01:19.532\n立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費\n\n01:21.762 --> 01:47.263\n律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施\n\n01:48.504 --> 02:15.831\n剛剛前面的委員有講到不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊\n\n02:17.383 --> 02:27.468\n啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這你有什麼樣的看法\n\n02:28.616 --> 02:48.077\n對我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也那我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的提案行政院的議事之類的我想那我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個\n\n02:49.218 --> 02:50.338\n律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範\n\n03:17.808 --> 03:42.835\n全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來\n\n03:44.246 --> 03:50.591\n我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的這個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加那這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題這是國家憲政結構的問題\n\n04:13.927 --> 04:21.067\n所以我是要請你們慎重你們要堅持住這不能隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.338,"end":27.806,"text":"主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定立立法跟屢次的改變"},{"start":29.284,"end":50.695,"text":"有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為"},{"start":55.339,"end":79.532,"text":"立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費"},{"start":81.762,"end":107.263,"text":"律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施"},{"start":108.504,"end":135.831,"text":"剛剛前面的委員有講到不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊"},{"start":137.383,"end":147.468,"text":"啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":148.616,"end":168.077,"text":"對 我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也那我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的提案行政院的議事之類的我想那我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個"},{"start":169.218,"end":170.338,"text":"律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範"},{"start":197.808,"end":222.835,"text":"全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來"},{"start":224.246,"end":230.591,"text":"我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的這個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加那這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題這是國家憲政結構的問題"},{"start":253.927,"end":261.067,"text":"所以我是要請你們慎重你們要堅持住這不能隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1372,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（16時10分）主席，麻煩請施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，關於退撫制度的沿革，從開始到現在也經過了很多次轉變啦！"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：歷次退撫制度的訂立、立法跟屢次改變中，有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案、沒有對案，由立法院立法委員單獨提案來做這項變革的？在你的印象中有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：以我的理解，印象中沒有啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有啦！"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦！","我想，這件事情中不光只有錢的問題，而是涉及憲政結構。關於立法院，在我們中華民國孫文先生所訂的五權憲法裡面有行政權跟立法權。在今年年初舉行的其實是2項選舉，總統的選舉屬於行政權，立法院是國會的選舉。關於行政權的選舉，行政權的核心其實說穿了只有2個東西，一個就是人事，一個就是經費。立法權則是做審議的。如果行政權不能決定人事，也不能決定經費要怎麼支用，那這個行政權就是名存實亡嘛！所以過去為什麼要這樣？就是因為過去無論退撫制度如何沿革、如何訂定，都是由行政機關提出，經立法院審議通過之後實施。剛剛前面的委員也有講到啊！無論國民黨執政或民進黨執政，都有人認為年金制度應該怎麼改、怎麼改，但無論要怎麼改，都是由行政機關提出。行政機關會計算基金要怎麼用，法條還包括行政機關、行政權每年要花多少費用放在退撫上面。如果立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意就自己立法，理由是反正我人數比你多，行政權得乖乖聽我的話，因為我就是比你大啊！這樣中華民國的行政權要如何繼續做下去呢？你對這點有什麼樣的看法？"],["施部長能傑：我在行政院也服務過，了解委員的所有講法。我也知道預算法有相關規定，就是所有提案如果牽涉到……"],["吳委員秉叡：不得為增加預算支出的提案。"],["施部長能傑：都要先徵詢行政院的意思之類的，我想這屬於立法部門在預算法中的規範，以我的理解是這樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：對。","另外，現在還有一項什麼財政紀律法，賴士葆委員還很得意，說是他通過的，他認為是他非常得意的成績。"],["施部長能傑：這跟預算法其實很相近。"],["吳委員秉叡：裡面就講到，若要為增加預算的提案，必須講財源要從那裡來啊！但現在的講法是我就是要你多出啊！財源行政機關要給我擠出來啊，我管你什麼原因。不然國家就多印錢嘛！全民來承擔啊！超級的通貨膨脹就讓全民來負擔這個後果啊！我覺得今天若要討論這個問題，微調的部分、不涉及金額的部分可以討論，至於這樣由立法院的立法委員提出法律修正案、沒有經過行政機關的研究、研討，我覺得太可怕了！這樣要是可以的話，以後在每一個地方都可以亂來啊！我舉個例子，我如果很同情勞工，又糾集了一半以上立法委員，那我也可以主張勞工全部都要加啊！為什麼就只有他們可以加、我們不能加？這樣國家要如何進行下去？我們的憲政要如何維繫、延續、維持呢？這個議題可能比光講要花多少錢、幾年會破產更為上位，以我讀法律的人而言，這是更上位的問題啊！這是國家憲政結構的問題。所以我請你們要慎重，你們一定要堅持住，不能隨便承諾、不能亂答應，亂答應是違憲的啊！"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油！謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}