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00:00:35,834\n議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人\n\n3\n00:00:41,257 --> 00:00:46,521\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n4\n00:01:10,078 --> 00:01:10,559\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n5\n00:01:31,198 --> 00:01:44,061\n所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們\n\n6\n00:01:45,303 --> 00:01:49,507\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n7\n00:02:05,623 --> 00:02:09,886\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n8\n00:02:29,399 --> 00:02:30,079\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n9\n00:02:47,964 --> 00:02:52,586\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n10\n00:03:05,993 --> 00:03:30,099\n沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛\n\n11\n00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:34,400\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案\n\n12\n00:03:53,015 --> 00:04:05,898\n除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算\n\n13\n00:04:20,922 --> 00:04:34,293\n現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫\n\n14\n00:04:37,415 --> 00:04:38,176\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6268\t8417\t感謝主席我請全序部麻煩部長\n12715\t35834\t議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人\n41257\t46521\t公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n70078\t70559\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n91198\t104061\t所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們\n105303\t109507\t三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n125623\t129886\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n149399\t150079\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n167964\t172586\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n185993\t210099\t沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛\n213900\t214400\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案\n233015\t245898\t除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算\n260922\t274293\t現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫\n277415\t278176\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案\n","txt":"感謝主席我請全序部麻煩部長\n議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案\n除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算\n現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.268 --> 00:08.417\n感謝主席我請全序部麻煩部長\n\n00:12.715 --> 00:35.834\n議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人\n\n00:41.257 --> 00:46.521\n公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具\n\n01:10.078 --> 01:10.559\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n01:31.198 --> 01:44.061\n所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們\n\n01:45.303 --> 01:49.507\n三）委員張智倫等19人擬具«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。\n\n02:05.623 --> 02:09.886\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n02:29.399 --> 02:30.079\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n02:47.964 --> 02:52.586\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會\n\n03:05.993 --> 03:30.099\n沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛\n\n03:33.900 --> 03:34.400\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案\n\n03:53.015 --> 04:05.898\n除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算\n\n04:20.922 --> 04:34.293\n現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫\n\n04:37.415 --> 04:38.176\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.268,"end":8.417,"text":"感謝主席我請全序部麻煩部長"},{"start":12.715,"end":35.834,"text":"議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人"},{"start":41.257,"end":46.521,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":70.078,"end":70.559,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":91.198,"end":104.061,"text":"所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們"},{"start":105.303,"end":109.507,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":125.623,"end":129.886,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":149.399,"end":150.079,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":167.964,"end":172.586,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":185.993,"end":210.099,"text":"沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛"},{"start":213.9,"end":214.4,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":233.015,"end":245.898,"text":"除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算"},{"start":260.922,"end":274.293,"text":"現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫"},{"start":277.415,"end":278.176,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1606,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（16時47分）感謝主席，我請銓敘部。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。針對年金改革，我們的主張是要持續進行，因為我們希望年金可以永續，但是非常的遺憾，在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革中止，那現在我們最擔心的，今天銓敘部你們給出來的意見是，你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：最主要的原因是什麼呢？"],["施部長能傑：我想不繼續的話，傷害的是現職的人，然後基金會破產。"],["吳委員沛憶：什麼樣的傷害？"],["施部長能傑：因為基金會提早用罄，所以你就領不到錢，會提早4到5年嘛！所以現在還沒有退休的人，或者最近這幾年進來的人，他們可能到時候都會碰到這個很嚴肅的課題。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是說我們的年金會提早……"],["施部長能傑：對，用罄。"],["吳委員沛憶：用盡？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在還在職，未來這些公務員等到他退休的時候，他就領不到退休金了。"],["施部長能傑：因為他需要用這個年金。"],["吳委員沛憶：而這個時間如果年改不繼續，現在就中止的話，會提早4到5年我們年金就會破產，有沒有預估現在在職公務人員受影響的人數是多少？"],["施部長能傑：這個倒沒有特別去算，但是以目前我的理解，因為112年才是新進的同仁，所以現在在職的同仁應該都是在這個基金裡面，絕大部分的人都還是在這個基金……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以全國有36萬的公務員都是……"],["施部長能傑：我在猜大概有三十三、四萬人現在還在這個基金，因為我印象中專戶可能是兩萬多人，新進的專戶大概兩萬多人。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以影響的人數是非常大的，而公務人員是我們國家運作的根本啊！不只是臺灣面臨到這個問題，還有世界各國，我們立法機關應該要來支持政府的運作，因為政府不是為我們運作，也不是為你們運作，是為人民去服務。","我另外請問，我們從開始進行年改，所得替代率從75%開始降嘛！我們是逐年調降。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：調到現在，我們替代率是多少？"],["施部長能傑：今年是67.5%。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在是67.5%，我們的目標值是多少？"],["施部長能傑：如果35年年資就是60%。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們目標值最終是希望調降到60%，但是即便到我們的目標60%，其實我們還是比OECD國家平均所得替代率還來得高，因為OECD國家平均所得替代率在57%到58%，也就是說，我們的替代率要調降到多少不是任意決定的，這是符合國際的一個趨勢，臺灣甚至還沒有達到國際的標準，所以我想我們是要去持續進行的。"],["施部長能傑：我也跟委員報告，實際上我們用退休金的計算方式，60%是名目的，實質上是比60%高。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯。我想每一個委員當然都有權提出法案，但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據，然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流，而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢。","另外，我也希望釐清，過去這幾年我們降低所得替代率，4年來總共節省了2,774億，這些錢用到哪裡去了？"],["施部長能傑：統統回給基金。"],["吳委員沛憶：也是回到年改基金，所以這些省下來的錢並不是說政府部門拿去作為他途來用。"],["施部長能傑：完全沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：不是，我們拿回來是挹注到退撫基金，也就是在職公務人員他們未來的退休金。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了這個以外，我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給基金？"],["施部長能傑：因為我們實施新制，所以目前大概累計撥補了294億左右。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，明年我們預計撥補多少？"],["施部長能傑：明年的預算是194億。"],["吳委員沛憶：明年我們預計要撥補給退撫基金，也就是公務人員未來的退休金是194億，所以我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨，因為撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算，現在在野黨第一個，還在擋總預算；第二個，在野黨版本的財劃法修法，會讓中央的預算少了幾千億，所以我相當地擔心，現在公務預算撥補給退撫基金的這194億，因為這是一個大水庫，未來也會受到影響，受害的一樣是在職公務人員他往後退休的福利，所以我希望不分黨派，大家要一起來做全體公務人員的後盾，因為他們跟我們一樣，都是為人民來服務，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","接下來請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}