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00:00:38,577\n委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現\n\n3\n00:00:40,317 --> 00:01:09,293\n這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不溯及既往原則是不是這樣\n\n4\n00:01:11,158 --> 00:01:38,661\n撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有人跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎\n\n5\n00:01:40,336 --> 00:02:02,082\n還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告沒有你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎\n\n6\n00:02:04,637 --> 00:02:13,704\n我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛\n\n7\n00:02:31,539 --> 00:02:32,060\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n8\n00:02:47,862 --> 00:02:50,783\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n9\n00:03:10,968 --> 00:03:26,417\n所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵\n\n10\n00:03:27,518 --> 00:03:28,179\n三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣\n\n11\n00:03:51,561 --> 00:03:52,622\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n12\n00:04:21,064 --> 00:04:29,794\n公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務\n\n13\n00:04:39,285 --> 00:05:05,794\n過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂地的計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之讚讚自己覺得自己的年金改革做得很好\n\n14\n00:05:07,305 --> 00:05:20,772\n為何沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效去破壞了這樣的一個制度我真覺得非常的可惡啦我現在就質問你啦如果接下來接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠所以你要繼續砍嗎有沒有\n\n15\n00:05:22,373 --> 00:05:23,314\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n16\n00:05:39,411 --> 00:05:55,401\n第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下瞭解一下\n\n17\n00:05:55,981 --> 00:05:56,301\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n18\n00:06:16,491 --> 00:06:39,906\n投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費率做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法\n\n19\n00:06:40,706 --> 00:06:50,495\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11832\t12833\t法定人數不足\n17731\t38577\t委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現\n40317\t69293\t這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不溯及既往原則是不是這樣\n71158\t98661\t撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有人跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎\n100336\t122082\t還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告沒有你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎\n124637\t133704\t我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛\n151539\t152060\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n167862\t170783\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n190968\t206417\t所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵\n207518\t208179\t三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣\n231561\t232622\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n261064\t269794\t公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務\n279285\t305794\t過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂地的計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之讚讚自己覺得自己的年金改革做得很好\n307305\t320772\t為何沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效去破壞了這樣的一個制度我真覺得非常的可惡啦我現在就質問你啦如果接下來接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠所以你要繼續砍嗎有沒有\n322373\t323314\t三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n339411\t355401\t第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下瞭解一下\n355981\t356301\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n376491\t399906\t投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費率做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法\n400706\t410495\t撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期\n","txt":"法定人數不足\n委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現\n這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不溯及既往原則是不是這樣\n撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有人跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎\n還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告沒有你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎\n我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵\n三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務\n過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂地的計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之讚讚自己覺得自己的年金改革做得很好\n為何沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效去破壞了這樣的一個制度我真覺得非常的可惡啦我現在就質問你啦如果接下來接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠所以你要繼續砍嗎有沒有\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下瞭解一下\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費率做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.832 --> 00:12.833\n法定人數不足\n\n00:17.731 --> 00:38.577\n委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現\n\n00:40.317 --> 01:09.293\n這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不溯及既往原則是不是這樣\n\n01:11.158 --> 01:38.661\n撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有人跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎\n\n01:40.336 --> 02:02.082\n還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告沒有你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎\n\n02:04.637 --> 02:13.704\n我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛\n\n02:31.539 --> 02:32.060\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n02:47.862 --> 02:50.783\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具\n\n03:10.968 --> 03:26.417\n所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵\n\n03:27.518 --> 03:28.179\n三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣\n\n03:51.561 --> 03:52.622\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案\n\n04:21.064 --> 04:29.794\n公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務\n\n04:39.285 --> 05:05.794\n過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂地的計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之讚讚自己覺得自己的年金改革做得很好\n\n05:07.305 --> 05:20.772\n為何沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效去破壞了這樣的一個制度我真覺得非常的可惡啦我現在就質問你啦如果接下來接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠所以你要繼續砍嗎有沒有\n\n05:22.373 --> 05:23.314\n三（委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n05:39.411 --> 05:55.401\n第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下瞭解一下\n\n05:55.981 --> 05:56.301\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n06:16.491 --> 06:39.906\n投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費率做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法\n\n06:40.706 --> 06:50.495\n撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.832,"end":12.833,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17.731,"end":38.577,"text":"委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現"},{"start":40.317,"end":69.293,"text":"這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不溯及既往原則是不是這樣"},{"start":71.158,"end":98.661,"text":"撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有人跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎"},{"start":100.336,"end":122.082,"text":"還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告沒有你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎"},{"start":124.637,"end":133.704,"text":"我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛"},{"start":151.539,"end":152.06,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":167.862,"end":170.783,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":190.968,"end":206.417,"text":"所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵"},{"start":207.518,"end":208.179,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":231.561,"end":232.622,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":261.064,"end":269.794,"text":"公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務"},{"start":279.285,"end":305.794,"text":"過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂地的計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之讚讚自己覺得自己的年金改革做得很好"},{"start":307.305,"end":320.772,"text":"為何沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效去破壞了這樣的一個制度我真覺得非常的可惡啦我現在就質問你啦如果接下來接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠所以你要繼續砍嗎有沒有"},{"start":322.373,"end":323.314,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":339.411,"end":355.401,"text":"第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下瞭解一下"},{"start":355.981,"end":356.301,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":376.491,"end":399.906,"text":"投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費率做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法"},{"start":400.706,"end":410.495,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1773,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（17時16分）麻煩請銓敘部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天，他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院，因為資源少，他跟醫生講說：沒關係，你來我們這邊啊，我們公務人員保障比較多。結果你知道那個年輕醫生回答什麼？他說：現在政府講的話都不算數啦，誰知道你現在講的東西，到時候會不會兌現？這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症，它其實殘害了我們整個公務體系，對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面影響。我就想問，當時政府講因為年金財產要破產了，這個法益很高，因此政府可以不用維持信賴保護原則，也可以突破法不溯及既往原則，是不是這樣？"],["施部長能傑：我想這個做法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告違憲。"],["葉委員元之：我是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛！我現在沒有在跟你討論有沒有違憲，我是說當時你們以未違反信賴保護原則及法不溯及既往原則，就是你認為有更高的法益嘛，是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，就是這樣嘛！我想請教一下，所謂退撫基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎？還是跟你的基金報酬率計算有關？當時基金報酬率是算多少錢？"],["施部長能傑：當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右。"],["葉委員元之：你是算4%，然後覺得會破產？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["葉委員元之：那如果你的計算方式是5%會破產嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我還是跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：你回答我的問題，如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎？"],["施部長能傑：委員，我跟您報告現在整個負債還是有2.9兆，所以即使我們現在提升到百分之七點多……"],["葉委員元之：如果現在負債有2.9兆的話，請問之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎？會不會？"],["施部長能傑：我們會努力維持這個……"],["葉委員元之：會不會嘛？你回答我的問題，你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金？"],["施部長能傑：我想我們就繼續讓年金按照原來的……"],["葉委員元之：所以不會嘛，不會嘛！"],["施部長能傑：我是不是……"],["葉委員元之：政府是不是不會這樣做？這個問題你回答不出來喔？你現在如果破產的話，你是不是考慮要再繼續砍人家年金？有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：委員，我們現在不會討論這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：我是問你有沒有嘛！不會嘛！代表什麼？代表基金破產跟要不要砍年金是兩回事嘛！"],["施部長能傑：報告委員，我們現在是有……"],["葉委員元之：你們現在的考慮方式，就是也許我們要提高基金報酬率，讓退撫基金的水位能夠維持嘛，當時就是因為你們基金的經營成效太差了，所以才會造成破產，所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產的原因跟退休人員領多少無關嘛，真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低嘛，因為你報酬率太低的結果，你說因為你們領太多，當時的民進黨幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵喔，你們吵越兇砍更多！是這麼粗暴，這麼情緒化，這樣不把公務人員的尊嚴當一回事的砍價方式，結果你們有沒有檢討實際上是你們基金的報酬率太差的結果，造成公教人員這幾年來一直背黑鍋，好像是因為他們領太多才拖垮了臺灣的財政，我覺得這是非常可惡啦，我覺得非常可惡啦！"],["施部長能傑：絕對不是單純的投資報酬率，因為從基金開始成立以後就沒有按照本來算的……"],["葉委員元之：如果你的報酬率高一點，你能夠維持5%的話，也許就不會破產啦！"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，根據……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這樣講我就很擔心啊，因為你的意思是說到時候也許不是報酬率的問題，我們如果報酬率沒辦法解決，我要繼續砍人家年金，你怎麼對公務人員交代啊？你已經完全破壞了信賴保護原則了！"],["施部長能傑：我沒有……"],["葉委員元之：現在公家機關要招募優秀人才，就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓人家都不敢來啊！"],["施部長能傑：委員……"],["葉委員元之：我還沒有問問題啦，我還沒有問問題，我沒有問你。現在這個問題是，我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意進到公部門服務，過去的公教人員犧牲了企業的高薪，他們到公家機關服務，他們奠定了臺灣經濟的基礎，包括現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山，也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦，由他們擬定計畫所建立起來的，結果現在你說因為他們領太多，所以就把他們的退休金砍了，我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎？你現在還堂而皇之沾沾自喜，覺得自己的年金改革做得很好，為什麼沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效？反而去破壞了這樣的一個制度。我真的覺得非常的可惡啦，我現在就是問你啦，如果接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠，所以你要繼續砍嗎？有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：我們目前不會……"],["葉委員元之：目前沒有，那為什麼之前就用這種方式？代表你有別的方式可以讓基金水位增加嘛，你為什麼不思考這個方式？所以我跟你講，因為召委已經站起來了，所以其實我覺得國民黨版本非常合理，第一沒有要恢復18%，第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率，現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了，從75%降到67.5%所得替代率，希望你們先停損，先檢討一下，了解一下，如果現在所得替代率到67.5%狀況之下，未來的基金有沒有可能因應？假設提高投資報酬率有沒有可能就以這樣子停損的基礎，就這樣下去，現在只是要做這樣的事情，版本就這樣而已啊，部長你覺得到底為什麼不可以？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，所有基金的財務投資報酬率只是其中一個因素，但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止有這麼大的缺口，從一開始就沒有根據基金所精算最適費率做提撥，加上我們所得制度、退休制度……"],["葉委員元之：所以你接下來要怎麼做嘛？接下來你覺得如果有可能破產就要繼續砍人家年金嗎？還是你會找別的方法？"],["施部長能傑：我們要努力繼續維持……"],["葉委員元之：還是你會找別的方法？如果你接下來沒有要砍年金，可以找其他的方法，那為什麼之前要砍人家年金？然後即使就是要砍人家年金，也破壞好不容易建立起來的政府跟人民的信任基礎，我覺得實在是得不償失啦，希望部長可以好好思考一下。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","我們現在先處理會議時間。依照上午的宣告，本日會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束及法案提案條文宣讀完畢為止。","接下來我們請李昆澤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}